Taslima’s Lies, Ismat’s Truth

#152 harimau:
At least, I have the good sense to wait. Unlike you.

Finally! Continuing my logic lessons to you from another thread - you don`t know me. Hence your assumption about me is just that. An assumption, and a groundless one, I may add. But you have admitted that my assumption about you is correct. So, you are indeed a bachelor who is waiting to marry his niece or nieces when they come of age. And you have the gall to stereotype, caricature and condemn wholesale, people of other communities and religions. What a piece of Scheiße you are!

Ref Stuffed-Turkey #151

[Who are we? You and your other personalities?]

Me and other Chowkies who see thru you.

[Uncle harimau, is it true that you`re a bachelor because your nieces haven`t come of age yet?]

At least, I have the good sense to wait. Unlike you.

#150
Who are we? You and your other personalities?
Uncle harimau, is it true that you`re a bachelor because your nieces haven`t come of age yet?

Ref Inji-kari-kuzhambu #146

[I think what`s very rare among hindus is marrying more than 2 wives. I have a few relatives who are bigamists and we have politicians in the south who are bigamists. None of them has gone to jail.]

You don`t have to say anything about your relatives. We all know the sort of people you come from. Bigamy would be the least of their crimes.

As to not having more than two wives, Doctor Artist Leader the Fund of Compassion has had multiple wives. The one who goes around with him, Dhayalu, is supposedly his third but I was told she was actually his fourth wife. And then when his daughter Kanimozhi (Sweet Words or is it Thenmozhi, Honeyed Words?) got married, he responded to a question with ``I am her father but her mother is not my wife``, setting a glorious example for the Maasanamuthus of Tamil Nadu. Unfortunately, you are in the US and not even in Utah!

[As for bigamist hindus being denied government jobs, again, that may be something in the books but is never enforced.]

If you don`t report that you have multiple wives the government is not sending out investigators to look into your marital status. But if you think about it -- I know this would be really hard for you -- the reason of course is it would be hard to decide who would be eligible for the pension or the Provident Fund distribution should the man die.

urbashi

great posts...please keep contributing on literary matters.

dostmitter ji -- I AM against ALL censorships...

ther was a time we used to think that the intellectuals should not trample upon the socalled `sensitivities` of the communities -- we shouldn`t `hurt their feelings`

-- behind that misconception -- lies the prescription for immutable unchanging societies based upon faith and archiac religions -- with no possibilties of any meaningful social change -- or cultural reforms --

just keep on coddling the garbage that every community -- Muslim or Hindu -- has collected over the centuries in the name of `tradition` and `culture` -- with no real attempt by any one side to separate the rational from the irrational in their backyard --

of course everybody would like to reform the OTHER --but unable to see the beam in their own eyes.

who knows -- may be it is time to deliberately break the `precious` China of communties `sensitivities` about their obsolete `tradition` and decedant `culture` -- instead of pussyfooting around it

may be it is time to tell the communties a lot of traditions they feel so proud of are pure garbage -- dont stand the light of this age of reason and science -- and even some of rational teachings of their own relgion..

and by God -- both the Muslims and the Hindus of the subcontinent NEED tons and tons of social REFORMS...

Both communtiesw need to be weaned little by little from their pathological addiction to their mostly delusional religions and myriads of meaningless obssessive compulsive rituals --

by a deliberate means of what may seem to be a cruel `desensitization` process --

by deliberately `hurting` their feelings --

as done in a helter skelter ineffectual way -- by people like Rushdie, Nasreen, Fazli or Naipaul...

if we really want to eliminate extremism and terrorism....we have to wean communities from their HOLY BUSINESS -- of Holy this Holy that -- by the force of the argument -- not by bombing the villages....

if we really want to usher in a civilized era -- it would not be a bad idea to -- LOCK all the HOLY PLACES and -- BAN all the HOLY Books -- instead of banning the books by the likes of Rushdie, Tasleema, Fazli, Naipaul and others........:-)

nasah:
``mr. roy despite being a BJP Being is RIGHT on this point.... ``
bhaijaan, I have to disagree with you once again. Mr. Roy makes a valid point about the double standards used by the WB government. But beyond that he is wrong. Mr. Fazli`s book should stay on the shelves. If hindus think he is wrong, they should issue rebuttals; if they think he has committed slander, he should be sued in the court and let the court decide if the book should be withdrawn on that account.
It has been my constant and consisten theme that the earlier policy/politics of asymmetric secularism is responsible for the rise of the likes of Advanis if not of Modis and Mr. Roy`s demand to ban Fazli`s book proves the point. But the solution is to correct the wrong committed in the earlier case, not to compound it with committing another wrong. It is like Rajiv Gandhi laying the shilanyas of Ram Mandir at Babri Masjid after caving in to the Muslim fundamentalists in the Shah Bano case.
Will they ever learn?

#124
Farzana, I believe bigamy (polygyny) is actionable only if the first wife complains. This rarely happens. Therefore, while there may be differences in the personal laws as to how polygyny may be treated, in practical terms, there`s little difference. As far as I know, incidence of bigamy as a percentage of their population is the same for hindus and muslims. I think what`s very rare among hindus is marrying more than 2 wives. I have a few relatives who are bigamists and we have politicians in the south who are bigamists. None of them has gone to jail.
As for bigamist hindus being denied government jobs, again, that may be something in the books but is never enforced. I think it`s just harimau displaying his usual cretinous behavior. I`d ignore it.

Farzana, this is just what happens when politicians forget principles and think only of vote-banks. Personally I`m against all such censorship - the only things that shouldn`t be printed are absolute untruths - libels and slanders - but this book is after all a matter of opinion, and we`ve seen plenty of this kind of writing on chowk, haven`t we, to get offended by its anti-Hindu rhetoric. Why do you think this Roy from the BJP even thought of banning the book - because of Rushdie, Nasrin, etc., etc. I`m sure you know this argument. But two wrongs never make a right. Mr Roy and others of his ilk - of whatever religious (or should I say political?) persuasion should perhaps be reminded of a very important statement made by the novelist Bankim Chandra Chatterjee (you know, the one who is castigated for being anti-Muslim and who wrote Vande Mataram) in one of his novels, ``If you`re `adham` - despicable - why should that stop me from being `uttam` (superior)?`` And that also goes for the people who love to call others names as try to pass this off as civilized discourse. This, I believe, is the basis of both India and Hinduism. If you don`t like what somebody says, or disagree with the kind of language used, that`s fine, everyone can`t agree all the time, and it`s a healthy sign othat so many of us think at all. But this kind of tit-for-tat attitude needs to stop, and I don`t mean at Chowk. The main problem began with the ``left liberals`` who bent over backwards in their slogan of ``secularism`` - I do wish people really knew what secularism means and implies.
Now Nasrin would conflate all these stories (the Dharmendra-Hema Malini ``marriage``, the Raja Reddy story, the Ragini story), relate them to what she`d seen in her own life among Muslims (she`s given us plenty of examples in the first two volumes of her autobiography, naming names, which is what provoked the violent response to her writings rather than the so-called anti-Muslim stuff, she`s as bitter about Hindus and Buddhists!), and prove that this is what happens when we allow patriarchal attitudes to take over our lives. Nasrin is by no means a great writer - her novels are unreadable, as I`ve suggested - and of late she`s been writing with an eye to the Western audience and the stereotypes it likes, but her poetry, her columns and her autobiographies are honest and sincere, and do have a lot to say that we have to accept. In fact, I`d say, as a student of literature myself, that the autobiographies are exceptionally well-crafted, and I believe that only someone familiar with the nuances of the language she uses (which is not the Bengali of traditional written discourse) would be able to peel off the layers and understand the implications of what she says.

``If the participants in the bigamous marriage were named Mustafa, Sultana and Khadeeja, your stand against bigamy would have been applauded. It is as simple as that!``

my dear Harimau miaN -- it is not ``simplifying `` the matter -- it is complicating it...

are you saying that Farzana cannot trash Hindus`s bigamy because she is a monogamist Muslim -- but you being a Hindu monogamist can trash Muslim`s Bigamy at the drop of the hat?...

does that mean -- you can dish it but you cannot take it?

do you think this is reasonable

---

now don`t tell me that bigamy in Hinduism is now a new Holy Cow?

Ref FarzanaVersey #140

[Had my name been Falguni Vohra or some such thing, my stand against bigamy would have been applauded.]

Wrong!

If the participants in the bigamous marriage were named Mustafa, Sultana and Khadeeja, your stand against bigamy would have been applauded.

It is as simple as that!

``If she does not do so, she is a fukcing hypocrite and should keep her mouth shut in future regarding bigamy, especially when in her own community, men are allowed to marry more than once.``(Dr. Sridhar)

DOCTOR Sridhar sahib -- that`s no way for an educated DOCTOR to address a lady -- is this is the kind of manner they teach in med schools in India these days ....an apology please....and anger management...anger management....

``But when the state government has proscribed Taslima’s book, I felt it was time I mentioned this book in the interest of secularism.``

mr. roy despite being a BJP Being is RIGHT on this point....

why Tasleema is banned and Fazli is NOT .......

let the immature Muslims of India READ Tasleema -- they need to recieve shock therapy to wake them from their stuporous delusions....

Hindus are much more `mature` in this regard ..... nothing irritates them (except may be some dilapidated domes ).... not a good thing either .......for social reforms...

Had my name been Falguni Vohra or some such thing, my stand against bigamy would have been applauded. No one would have looked around for alternative professions for me. I am touched by the concern, only wish the language used was a bit more in keeping with such concern.

And re. Taslima and the fallout of the stay order, this might be of some interest...

From The Asian Age, November 30:
``BJP demands ban on Fazli’s book
- By Our Special Correspondent

Kolkata, Nov. 29: The state BJP president Tathagata Roy at a press conference on Saturday, demanded that the book, Hindutva Ebong Islam : Ekti Tulanamulak Alochona, (Hindutva and Islam : A Comparative Study) be proscribed as has been done in the case of Taslima Nasreen’s book Dwikhandita.

The book, written by Murtahin Billah Fazli and translated into Bengali by Maniruddin Khan, has been published by Abdul Rahaman Mallick of Mallick Brothers, College Street, Kolkata. It says, ``Hinduism is full of illogical thoughts, beliefs and superstitions.`` It has also described the Hindu Puranas as pornography and the writer has given vivid details of sexual escapades of Sri Krishna, Bramha and others.

Reading out several chapters from pages 10, 18, 118 and 121, Mr Roy said, ``The writer has blatantly attacked Hinduism and religious facts, revered as Puranas and said that those are simple pornography.`` The book says, ``Hindus have no fixed manner of worship. Hindus worship the Tulsi plant, cows, snakes, monkey, rats and the rest. Their objects of worship include the penis (the shiva linga) which is in reality a piece of stone sticking out of a replica of the vulva,`` Mr Roy said quoting from the book.

His contention was that ``If the so called secular Left Front government can ban Taslima Nasreen’s book on the charge of disparaging Islam in the interest of communal amity, why should this book be sold ?`` The book was bought by Mr Roy from the Kolkata Book Fair last year. Asked why he has been silent all this time, he said that he was silent because he did not want a controversy. ``But when the state government has proscribed Taslima’s book, I felt it was time I mentioned this book in the interest of secularism.`` The Trinamul Congress leader Pankaj Banerjee, however felt that writers and artists should be allowed freedom of expression.``

No sir, what we need is enforcement of existing criminal laws against those in power. Then we need reform of those laws that discriminate against segments of our society.

I agree with Harimou regarding this! I have interacted closely with the Indian bureaucracy and I have found that the problem was regarding bureaucrats not being able to ``Govern`` properly- all because of the Older variety of governance- non-transperancy- lack of repsonsibility at all levels- ans simple- INCOMPETENCE.
However, the new breed of technologically savvy bureaucrats are changing things- now these guys are getting the grip of things- there are laudable e-governance projects taken upo by states like AP, Maharastra, TN, Gujrat- and now J&K. I can predict that within 4 years, most of the State government secreteriats , including the Central Government ministires would be ONLINE with their paperless offices and complete automation of their workflows. India would be a greater force than what it is now- It would have a very powerful and efficient bureaucracy - all because of automation of their complex workflows- which would prune their work flows - do a BPR of the processes- expedite governmental processes- create online citizen interface - reduce manual interaction with the citizens- cut down corruption- improve efficiency- and hence the ECONOMY-
Just wait and see guys- the enemies would invest more on trying to sabotage the governmental networks than setting up their own house in order- but they would not succeed. India IS going to have Europe for breakfast!!!

re:#117 by FarzanaVersey
Looks like Farzana bibi has nothing better to do than protest against a man marrying 2 sisters. Yes, this is bigamy and it is unlawful but when the 2 sisters are not complaining, why is Farzana bibi protesting?

http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/2003/08/10/stories/2003081000131400.htm

``Hindus, Sikhs and Jains are governed by the Hindu Marriage Act, 1955 and the Hindu Succession Act, 1956. Although the law prohibits bigamy, the practice continues among Hindu men. A Hindu woman who seeks divorce or demands maintenance on grounds that her husband has contracted a bigamous marriage must prove that he has married again. Since marriages under the Hindu Marriage Act are not automatically registered, it is hard to prove.``

http://indiatogether.org/manushi/issue136/hml.htm

``What options are open to a woman whose husband marries someone else while still married to her? Is that bigamy?

Yes, marrying again during the lifetime of one`s wife or husband is known as bigamy. It is a criminal offence, punishable with imprisonment and fine. A bigamous marriage is void, a complete nullity (see answer to question No.5). If a woman has prima facie evidence that she is lawfully married to a man who is about to or has remarried, she can register a criminal complaint and the police are expected to stop him from getting remarried. If a wife learns that her husband is going to marry again she can get an injunction from the court forbidding the marriage before it occurs. After it has taken place, a wife can ask the court for a ``declaration`` that the second or bigamous marriage is null and void. Proving bigamy, however, is not easy. The complainant wife has to prove that both the marriages, her own as well as the second bigamous one, have been performed properly according to the appropriate ceremonies. Most prosecutions for bigamy fail because the complainant does not have the proof of the bigamous marriage. The accused husband can usually successfully claim against all efforts to prove the contrary that essential parts of the ceremony were never carried out and escape punishment. ``

Bigamy is clearly illegal. But as the above articles point out, it is difficult to prove legally. I believe the high profile marriage of Dharmendra and Hema Malini (while former was still married with a son) falls into that gray zone. I am not sure if the 2 are legally married. They may be but they certainly did not register it and nobody thought it fit to challenge them.


May i suggest some better vocation for Farzana bibi?
1. How about being involved in welfare activities of muslim minorities?
2. How about some research into why muslim minorities lead a ``ghettoed`` life and what can be done to bring them to the mainstream?
If India is to progress, all its sections must progress. Increasing marginalisation of its muslim minority is a disaster waiting to happen.
Sridhar