Taslima’s Lies, Ismat’s Truth

Ref soysauce #179

[#178 I didn`t know i had to offer excuses for VP Singh or anyone else.]

How about making some excuses for ``Murasoli`` (Drumbeat) Maran? That guy spent close to 10 months in intensive care in Houston at Government expense. Why couldn`t he get his treatment from one of your quota doctors?

Of course when he finally reconciles himself to the fact that he is going to die, he flies back to Madras/Chennai in an air ambulance costing tens of thousands of dollars to the taxpayers of India. One good thing though: the quota doctors finished him off in the next 6 weeks!

[It seems to me that you`re taking the harimau route of making some assumptions about me based on some generalizations. Please don`t.]

My assumptions are statistically valid.

[What`s it that I have said that`s bigotted?]

Your actions in real life.

[Had you followed harimau iyer`s last few posts you would have seen that he was being abusive towards nonbrahmins in general.]

If you repeat that lie, it doesn`t become the truth. I rail against quota system abusers like you.

[On neologism, I made up a word for harimau that he thought was unacceptable (not so much the meaning of the word but that it was my invention), and I am pointing out to him that this happens often enough in (the english) language that there`s a word to describe the phenomenon.]

From the Merriam-Webster Dictionary:
ne·ol·o·gism
Pronunciation: nE-`ä-l&-``ji-z&m
Function: noun
Etymology: French néologisme, from ne- + log- + -isme -ism
Date: 1800
1 : a new word, usage, or expression
2 : a meaningless word coined by a psychotic

That ought to tell you that you ought to stick to words of one syllable.

[Are you clued in now?]

Read that second definition. THAT is the clue.

[I don`t buy the argument that what someone is saying on an anonymous board is going to hurt people who probably don`t even follow that board. If what I said upset you personally, then you have my apologies.]

Meaning: show me your a$$ and I will kiss it.

#184
``I know you`ll be back, but I really am off to the beach tomorrow...freeze all you like, mate! Too many presumptions to let you keep presuming...... doubtless you`ll be back, like I said, you have to be, but he who gets the last word isn`t always right. It`s not juvenile to say that, it`s the truth, and very male not to see it.Everyone doesn`t have to agree with you. I can`t even get angry, unfortunately-you`re just another South Asian male who thinks he has all the answers, even if he`s not quite sure of the questions.``

[Alas, you might as well have said this to yourself since you did come back to have the last word. How very masculine of you!]
Please do come back because you`re enjoying this. This is an anonymous board where you can set aside your private emotions and pitch in. I don`t know where my gender came into this other than that you`d like make an issue of it and as you can see your masculinity overpowered your femininity.

``It makes me very angry,though, that someone who may or may not have benefited from a reservation but is entitled to one dares tell someone who got in the hard way how good or bad they are. ``

Who might you be talking about now, since the discussion has been at the abstract level as far as I am concerned. Only thing we know is that you are angry with the quota system. Again, please don`t make arbitrary assumptions about your interlocutors, don`t be a harimau.

Thanks for the advice on what to write and what not to write altho the time for that is past. But we moved away from the original topic a long time ago and if you wish to say something relevant to the original topic, you`re free to reclaim this board. We`re like squatters now and no one else cares. You yourself brought up a totally irrelevant subject, venting spleen about n. indians vs s. indians. I hope you feel better now after you got that out of your system.

On my ``bigotted`` statement regarding tamil brahmins marrying their nieces & cousins, it was originally made in a totally relevant context, on this or another one of Farzana`s boards. Harimau, who wears his brahminness on his sleeves, was railing about muslims marrying their cousins and i had to point out that his own community was guilty of this practice. To many brahmins this kind of consanguinous marriage is an acceptable cultural norm and many of them are honest enough to acknowledge that and not be hypocritcal and condemn the muslims for the same practice. My comment is specific to harimau only. You see, the angry one is you for having called me a bigot and then going around looking for ways to justify your visceral reactions.

I cannoty disagree with you more that there is a set of psychiatric terms that may not be touched by anyone other than professionals. Words eventually do spill out into the general parlance. Schizoid is a very good example of this.

Enjoy the beach and come back to slug it out here.

Why the sic? Never heard of that? Don`t read a lot, do you?
God, you`re angry. It makes me very angry,though, that someone who may or may not have benefited from a reservation but is entitled to one dares tell someone who got in the hard way how good or bad they are. Like you were the examiner? People who defend the quota system have to face up to everything about it, just as if you defend Hindutva, you have to face up to the Gujarat riots. If you think he did the right thing, then you do need to face up to why the architect of the social catastrophe that was the Mandalisation of India feels the need to leave the country for something so basic, people can do it at home with the right equipment. Nitwit is fine, btw-it`s not psych terminology. If you don`t know the difference, it`s your problem. FYI, ullu ka patha,gadha,etc are also not psych terminology. Just in case you didn`t know.
Fine if you want to keep writing here regardless, even if it has nothing to do whatsoever with the topic at hand, and you don`t know what you`re talking about. You live in a free country. That was just a request to make things easier on other people, including anyone who may have actually wanted an intelligent conversation about Taslima and Chughtai, but I can see such niceties wouldn`t concern you. I don`t believe you get to call me a pipsqueak-you and Harimau aren`t the only ones entitled to their opinions, so even if you want to call me one, it doesn`t make me one.If you can`t debate civilly, the problem is yours. You`re getting just as angry with me as you do with Harimau-so he`s obviously not as much to blame as I had previously thought-taali ek haath se nahin bajti, as they say in the Hindi belt. You did suggest all Tam Brahms want to marry their nieces-you don`t think that is bigoted?Ugly insinuations? Look at your own.Sometimes it`s hard to see your own prejudices.
I am not a guy. Nor am I likely to be much younger than you-pipsqueak usually does imply a rather young person, you know. Nor am I North Indian to have a complex about South Indians. But I have noticed Tamilians preening themselves on their intellect-won`t blame you, though, they`re usually TamBrahms. Outlook did a story some time ago on Indians leaving India; they of course blamed Hindutva; but from the experiences of my friends and my brother`s friends, I would say it`s not being able to get postgrad medical seats because they`re reserved for the rich Yadav kid next door who got 24% less than you-you went to school with him, and you never knew he was a `lower caste`, but he is, and he`s going to use it. If you can`t see that`s a problem...
I live in Australia. If people can say guy ( remember that is a Yank term), I can say mate, or bloke, or sheila, or dinky-di or whatever else I choose. Australian English is as much an entity as American English. You know what colour I am, but not what colour my passport is, so don`t presume.
I know you`ll be back, but I really am off to the beach tomorrow...freeze all you like, mate! Too many presumptions to let you keep presuming...... doubtless you`ll be back, like I said, you have to be, but he who gets the last word isn`t always right. It`s not juvenile to say that, it`s the truth, and very male not to see it.Everyone doesn`t have to agree with you. I can`t even get angry, unfortunately-you`re just another South Asian male who thinks he has all the answers, even if he`s not quite sure of the questions. I`m sure you and Harimau will soon find another board to go off at each other on, and you`ll forget you were so angry with me. Ah, the delights of the internet!
Merry Christmas.

#181 nb
Re: neologism, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
I have to give an explanation for ``VP Singh doing what he does (sic)``. Why exactly? What does VP Singh have to do with what I think about the quota system? Is he like the god of quota religion and I am his blind follower?
For someone who apparently suffers from the complex that north indians are inferior to s. indians (which i reject completley, btw, so rest easy) you aren`t half bad. Look how you have boxed me in, leaving me with no defences. You`re a clever guy, right down to yakking up this aussie thing when neither of us is one. Look what you have reduced me to:
You have a social life and a full-time job and if I dare respond to you it must be because I have neither and/or I have the need to have the last word. On usenet, this sort of predictable preemption used to be recognized as juvenile but I can`t possibly accuse you of being that lest someone label me an ageist.
You have declared me a bigot because i must be so, that everyone has said some bigotted thing at one time or another, neatly sidestepping any need to back up your ugly insinuation. I`d call you a nitwit but I can`t because you yourself may accuse me of insulting the mentally disabled.
If you have trouble deciphering harimau`s long words of abuse in tamil, ask him to translate them and if you have trouble with people carrying on with each other stop reading. You knew that already but must be suffering from a bout of grandiose delusion that you chose to tell others to go away from a medium in which you have no stake whatsoever. It troubles me not if harimau and I are the only ones writing here and, unless the owners of this site yank my posting privileges, I`m letting no pipsqueaks like you tell me what to do...

God, mate, you do have time hanging heavy on your hands.
You do have to give an explanation for VP Singh doing what he does if you say you don`t agree with mine-or else say you don`t know. What, now everyone who doesn`t agree with you is Harimau?
I did see the`incestuating` with you and Harimau, but I thought talking about neologisms fitted in with your misuse of psych terminology. My mistake-you didn`t even know the connotations, and why would you, as I`ve pointed out, you`re not a doctor? I would still appreciate it if you and everyone else could not misuse words when they don`t know what they mean. You have said plenty in the past that is bigoted, as have many other people on chowk, but you have the right to be a bigot-everyone does-it`s just hypocrisy then to make a fuss when other people do. I don`t agree with most of what Harimau says, but at least he`s honest, and doesn`t claim to be unbiased. You have some nerve to say I haven`t been following the board when you haven`t even read through what I said to you, or else have chosen to ignore it.
Like I said, just get his email address or phone number, and make it a one on one. You might find you have a lot in common and it could be the start of a lovely relationship. If you put stuff on a public board, you have to expect other people to react to what you`re saying, whether it`s addressed to them or not. You keep emphasising the anonymity factor here-does this mean you feel you can say anything you want because of this? I know, the answer will be if Harimau can do it, why can`t I? Talk about obsessions-and both of you are at fault, he often does start it. For everyone else`s sake, do it, especially so that we don`t have to be exposed to long Tamil words, which make no sense to anyone but the two of you. What I think is, ha, South Indians preen themselves on their `superior` intelligence-this is what they`re really like, when they think no one`s listening. Pakistanis probably think all Indians are like this, and I can`t blame them, but the much maligned Hindiwallahs aren`t anywhere nearly as bad-they`ve learnt we all have to tolerate each other, whether we like it or not, and in Bengal, it just doesn`t matter.
I do have other things to do, mate- I have a full-time job and a social life(it`s Christmas, for heaven`s sake) so this is it from me. No doubt you will answer, needing to have the last word, regardless, but have a good one. Nowhere as good as me though, it`s a gorgeous Aussie summer...

Whatever anyone`s opinions about people with whom they violently disagree, I don`t think it`s right to use the names of mental illnesses as abuse. It`s being completely insensitive, quite apart from being inaccurate as well. One should always know the meaning and implications of what one writes when one uses terms like the ones that are being banded about right now.
I`d really like to know what soysauce means by manic depressive. Has he used it to mean what it means in medical/psychiatric parlance? It`s a technical term, not a term of abuse. If he does know what the words mean, how does he know so much about harimau? Not that harimau has been very forebearing in his attacks on soysauce, but at least he hasn`t used terms which (a) he doesn`t know the meanings of, and (b) demean people who suffer from mental illnesses, which, perhaps you don`t realize, are as terrible as physical illnesses. In fact, there`s really no difference between the so-called physical and mental as far as illness is concerned.
This brings me to the real point of my post, which I`ve mentioned in my earlier ones. Why is it that we think we can say anything about anybody without knowing what the ``truth`` is? Like Farzana pontificating about Taslima Nasrin without having read her at all, or attempting to compare her to Chugtai without knowing how and where Nasrin is different. I`m not saying Nasrin is the world`s greatest writer or South Asia`s greatest feminist, but the least I`d expect from anyone who writes about her - or anyone or anything - is that they know what they`re talking about. Like soysauce using medical illnesses as terms of abuse. Of course, I couldn`t catch what harimau was saying myself, but obviously soysauce did. Did anyone else, though?

#178
I don`t mean to ``drag`` you into this discussion so I`ll leave you alone. I didn`t know i had to offer excuses for VP Singh or anyone else. It seems to me that you`re taking the harimau route of making some assumptions about me based on some generalizations. Please don`t.
What`s it that I have said that`s bigotted? Had you followed harimau iyer`s last few posts you would have seen that he was being abusive towards nonbrahmins in general.
On neologism, I made up a word for harimau that he thought was unacceptable (not so much the meaning of the word but that it was my invention), and I am pointing out to him that this happens often enough in (the english) language that there`s a word to describe the phenomenon. Are you clued in now? I don`t buy the argument that what someone is saying on an anonymous board is going to hurt people who probably don`t even follow that board. If what I said upset you personally, then you have my apologies.

#177 urbashi
My basic point is that reservations are needed. Is it correct to say that we agree on that? I don`t doubt that the system is abused and that it has to be reformed, reevaluated, etc. I would whole-heartedly agree that reservations are closely tied to vote-bank politics. However, we need to be pragmatic and realize that almost every policy decision in a republic is subject to influence by various vote banks. Where I come from, reservations have not always benefited the truly needy. The privileged amongst backward castes tend to be more favored due to the mere fact that they have access to things. But even the existence of a privileged class among the backward castes is a positive change from a generation ago. If that can be projected into the future, things cannot be all bad.
It`s not that I am shutting my eyes to what the politicians are doing (I`d be the first one to say that VP Singh was cynical with how he used the Mandal Commission report) but often times the argument becomes since so&so corrupted the policy let`s do away with that policy. That`s the argument i wish to avoid.

soysauce, I wonder whether you`re wilfully misunderstanding the drift of my post, or whether I really haven`t been able to get my point across.
Reservations are fine in theory (btw, I`m not a brahmin myself, nor have I ever had to face reverse discrimination, so there`s nothing personal in my remarks), but they`ve been abused, and the result is that they haven`t had the effect they should have. I know nothing anyone can do can be perfect or can please everyone, but we should accept that the quota system hasn`t worked the way it should have and see where we can plug the loopholes. I`ll give you some examples:
1. Candidates with less than 11% marks in the qualifying pre-med test have been admitted to med school while ``general category`` students with more than 75% marks have not. Of course, this was before the Medical Council of India laid down a basic pass mark for all candidates - I think it`s 30% now, but I`m not sure. But even then, surely someone with 80% in the qualifying test is more ``deserving`` than someone with barely 30%? Isn`t the answer to that more stress on the basics - school education?
2. The child of a Divisional Commissioner (IAS), who has the advantages of a solid education in the best possible school/s in the division, and who doesn`t have to face discrimination while she`s there because it`s usually an English-medium missionary school (and say what you like, you can`t persuade me that Christian nuns and priests discriminate, or allow anyone to discriminate, on grounds of caste), gets admission to med or engg college on the basis of caste, while the child of a poor village ``forward-caste`` family, with no such advantages, and with far higher marks, doesn`t. Now you might say that this is the price the forward-caste child has to pay for the sins of his forefathers, and I suppose one has to accept this kind of reverse discrimination, doesn`t one?
3. I personally have seen people from forward castes in the villages manage to get SC/ST certificates and apply for jobs/admission to institutes on that basis.
4. The most strking recent example of what can go wrong is to be seen in the case of the erstwhile Chhattisgarh CM, Ajit Jogi. He`s basically a converted Satnami (a Scheduled Caste), but because a converted SC person can`t avail of the advantages of reservation, he managed to get an ST certificate, and became an IAS officer on that basis. But that`s not all. He married a girl from a very well-to-do Christian family who is a well-qualified doctor. No SC/ST blood anywhere in Mrs Jogi`s lineage. Their only son was born in Dallas, where Mrs Jogi`s sister is a doctor, and he is an American citizen by birth. But the boy was raised in India, where they were particular to get him an ST certificate - so he`s both an American citizen and a member of a Scheduled Tribe in India, and he even took the IAS entrance exams on the reserved quota. It`s another matter that he didn`t get in even on the quota.
My point is that the system needs to be shaken up so that these anomalies don`t take place. Obviously, what constitutes ``merit`` is also bound to be biased, but what we need to do is to take a good hard look at the way people, and by people I mean those with the politicians behind them to egg them on for the politicians` own purposes, have been manipulating things, and to work out how that can be stopped, so that the real purpose behind affirmative action can be achieved. It`s still a case of who you know, only the who has changed. Yes, teachers at Govt colleges are threatened all the time - if they don`t pass students for whatever reasons, the easiest thing to say is that they`re anti-quotawallahs and have deliberately failed reserved candidates. No-one bothers to see whether any of the students should have passed at all. Because of political backing, these students often feel they don`t need to work hard at all, they can always create a racket if they fail. It`s not their fault, they`ve seen it happening all the time, and not simply with other reserved-category students but with anyone with political pull. You know, those Hindi films that show wicked politicians aren`t even halfway close to the reality. You may not want to talk about what politicians do or don`t do, but by shutting your eyes to the misuse and abuse of the system you`re really perpetuating all its problems.
I`m not objecting to reservations, it`s very obvious they need to continue, what I stress is the need to realize where and how they`ve gone wrong, and how things can improve.
Why do private hospitals/managments prefer ``general category`` doctors? Not because they belong to forward castes, that`s for sure. They`re in the business of healthcare, and they want to be sure they get the best. Unfortunately the system as it exists today prevents ``quota`` students from trying to do their best. They know that they can get a job much more easily than a general-category one - and everyone thinks that a Govt job is the cushiest. It`s not that a reserved student lacks ``merit``, whatever that means, it`s simply that the system doesn`t reward him for working hard or trying to do better. It`s not affirmative action that`s wrong, it`s the way it`s been made to work that`s wrong.
Anyway, this is all very remote from Farzana`s article. I wish all the posts would stick to the point!

Yes, soysauce, there is merit- based discrimination-anyone not in the top 10% of their class can expect to face a dificult time finding a job. As I have already explained to you,that doesn`t include all persons from the so called lower castes- just those who don`t do as well as the others. India is very very competitive, in case you don`t remember- why should someone who gets 55% get a job over the person who got 75%, when there are no rules forcing private hospitals to do so?You`re wrong about saying getting into a university programme not meaning someone will pass-eventually, unless they become unwell, they usually will, whatever caste they are, even if they take 10 years as against the usual 5, beause they have access to all sorts of assistance-special tutorials and the like. Like I said, this is the wrong place, but obviously, even you don`t know why VP Singh is using taxpayer`s money to get dialysis abroad-one goes abroad for treatment when local expertise isn`t good enough.
Talking about nepotism, since you`re suggesting its an upper caste thing, does the name Ait Jogi ring a bell? Or is Chhatisgarh too insignificant for the likes of you, like Farzana and her comments about the Hindi belt?
You can look after yourself and defend yourself. People with a mental illness often can`t. Don`t begin to compare- they lose jobs, families, lives, the lot. I still don`t get the neologism bit, either-are you saying you came up with one?Why would you say that?Like I said, find something else to call Harimau-it is not acceptable to use mental illness in this way. Especially since you`re not even a doctor(apparently), leave alone a psychiatrist, and you really don`t know what you`re talking about.That is my point.
Both you and Harimau look really silly, but at least he`s stopped. Since I don`t know either of you personally, and have been on chowk less than a year, I have to say both of you seem equally bigoted-the `upper` castes don`t have a monopoly on that. Good luck-you deserve each other, which is probably why everyone else just leaves you 2 alone to slug it out.

#174 nb,
The neologism comment was directed at harimau, not you.
Yes, I do know what a manic depressive is. I am sorry you took it personally. This is an anonymous forum where anyone dishing it out to others can expect to receive in kind. I know that goes for me as well. Harimau has been putting out ugly stereotypes of nonbrahmins. Why hasn`t that bothered you?

nb & urbashi,
I don`t wish to be sidetracked into what politicians like to do. If the argument was that VP Singh himself didn`t trust the quota doctors, that he went abroad for treatments is not a proof of that.
Yes, the quota system is flawed but it was and still is necessary to ensure that lower castes are not denied opportunities until they can achieve parity (in terms of economic strength, connections to power (``networking``), etc.) Just because someone is getting admission does not mean that he or she is going to successfully complete the graduation requirements. If indian colleges are graduating substandard students, you should attack the standards and not the reservation system. There are centralized exams for professional colleges and I don`t see how teachers can be threatened to pass someone. There is all sorts of blackmailing that goes on in india both by the rich and well-connected and powerful and the caste groups. That is an argument to clean up the corruption not one to do away with reservation.
The way i see the quota system is this: If you look at who were in powerful positions during independence it was, with few exceptions, people from the forward castes. There was a well-established system of nepotism for a long time after independence that effectively kept everyone else out. I see reservations as an automatic substitution for a system that was (and still is, to some extent) in place. It`s not so much who you know any more, but who you are. Someday merit will be the sole criterion, but even there, if you are tuned to what`s going on in the US with regards to standardized tests, the system that estimates merit can also be biased.
nb, are you saying that the reservation candidates face discrimination in getting jobs? Shouldn`t such discrimination be outlawed?

soysauce, I believe the point about V. P. Singh is not that India doesn`t produce good doctors but that someone who tried to break up India by playing the politics of caste and demanding reservations himself refuses to be treated by Govt drs, many of them in their positions simply because of caste considerations, and runs away to the West, using Govt money for the purpose, too, btw.
The point is the hypocrisy of people , especially politicians. If you`ve been to a medical or engineering school or college where there are caste-based reservations you would see how little these ``quotawallah`` students work, and how they demand to be passed simply because of their caste. The threat to the teachers there is that they will be pulled up and face all kinds of problems if they don`t pass ``quota`` students. I`m not saying that all ``quota`` students are unworthy or that teachers are blameless in the matter of caste discrimination. Terrible things do happen still in our country. Don`t you think it would be better if underprivileged children of whatever community, and especially those who`ve been at the receiving end of prejudice and discriminations for generations, are given special coaching at the school level in particular so that they`re academically equal to the other, ``general category``, students? After all, it can be no-one`s argument that brains, skills, etc., are the monopoly of any one community, caste, whatever. Why aren`t they given a real chance at doing well instead of giving them this easy way out? It`s as unfair to them as it is to the ``general category``. Govt jobs for drs are also largely reserved. Why don`t the politicians, who have a vested interest in perpetuating caste conflicts, get themselves treated only by Govt drs if they really think that reservations can ensure social justice, and that drs who`ve got their jobs on the basis of caste are just as good as those who didn`t get into med school only because of affirmative action?
Personally I believe caste would have died a natural death had politicians not used it as electoral ploys.
How about using only those terms the meaning of which you know? Do you know what a manic depressive is? Are you a psychiatrist, by any chance?

Fine, then, you tell me why V.P. Singh doesn`t have his treatment in India. And as for the foreigners you talk about, how many of them come to India to be treated at the hands of people who got in through reservations? Most private hospitals are happy to employ anyone who got in through a general quota, regardless of their caste-though it may surprise you, there are lots of people in that category-including several of my own classmates. They really don`t employ a lot of people who needed reservations to get in. The latter usually end up at government medical colleges and hospitals, and we know the middle classes don`t go there. I have large numbers of classmates and friends at hospitals throughout India, so I know what I`m talking about. This isn`t the right place to debate the reservation system, so I won`t, but do think about this.
And please don`t go telling me you can diagnose BAD from harimaus`s posts. It amazes me that people think they can be psychiatrists with no training. What if I started to write lines of code for programming, or designed a building or whatever? But with psychiatry, everyone who`s read one article about pop psychology thinks they`re an expert. And it`s acceptable for people(and you`re not the only one) to go about diagnosing other people with no knowledge of the subject at hand whatsoever(something like this article of Farzana`s where she admits she hasn`t read most of Taslima`s body of work,and couldn`t even get through one translated novel in full). If anything, and I hate applying psychiatric terminology like this to the genral population, you could say Harimau has overvalued ideas. We all have some, i.e I believe in God, others believe in Jayalalitha, yet others believe Saddam is a hero, etc. As long as we`re able to apply normal logic to this (i.e I accept that there is no absolute proof of the existence of God) and it is culture appropriate(most Indian women of whatever religion and class do believe in God) it is not a delusion. Does that make sense? If you don`t like someone, it is fine to say they are a stupid git or whatever. I pointed out to Sadna once that Pakistanis are convinced of their (great) beauty and superiority(not to mention their fair skins), which IMO is stupid, but not delusional, given the whole country appears to think that way.
Neologism, I know is part of vocabulary outside psychiatry- I don`t know what your point is, I know you don`t want an answer from me, but I just thought I`d let you know it`s almost diagnostic of a psychotic illness and especially common in schizophrenia.
I am sick and tired of the misuse of psychiatric terminology to score points. This is part of the stigmatisation of psychiatry and psychiatric patients. You may not have a problem with that; many people don`t until someone they know becomes unwell, and I hope for your sake that never happens to you. I feel strongly about my patients. Many of them can`t defend themselves. Can I ask you, and others to leave them alone and pick on people who can?
Tell you what. Why don`t you and Harimau get each other`s email addresses and leave everyone else in peace?

#169
Look up ``neologism`` and then come back.

#171
Unemployed? I proabably average 2 - 3 hours and 5 - 6 posts a week at chowk.
Swimming with a sewer rat? That`s a new one altho it is an apt description of harimau...

#170
How would you react if i made up stuff about you and repeated that over and over again? You correct me and I run away but then return to a different board repeating it all over? I`d have to be either a complete moron or someone who cannot differentiate between reality and stuff I have made up? Harimau suffers from severe delusions, swings between making extremely castist and bigoted statements and pretending he is the paragon of virtue and, imo, he`s a manic depressive..
You are welcome to be angry about the reservation system if you want & even more welcome if you want to debate it. I don`t get the connection between VP Singh getting treated abroad and the reservation system? Are you saying that the reservation system has resulted in there being not a single good physician/surgeon that VP Singh could have gone to? Are you saying that even the brahmin doctors (who in castist harimau`s opinion) are not good enough? The reality is that foreigners are starting to go to india for specialty care and treatment for any number of reasons. If quality was an issue, they would not be gambling their health and lives like this.

haramiU
U know soy personally? From the way U 2 have b`n going i got to ask- did U 2 meet in the unemployment office?

soy
Dont U have sumpin better 2 do? Why go swimmin with haramiU who`s a sewer rat?

I hate to butt into this completely fascinating conversation which makes sense to nobody else, especially those from outside TN, but had to point out the error in your post.
Harimau displays symptoms of manic depression aka Bipolar Affective Disorder? How, exactly? And this is often due to unfortunate events in families- how, again, when scientists are still tearing their hair out on the nature/nurture thing? It is unfair to say someone has a mental illness just because you don`t agree with him.
I got the admissions I wanted, btw, but still feel strongly about reservations. Isn`t it ironic that Mr Mandal, Weepy Singh himself, won`t even be dialysed in India-such a basic thing and he doesn`t trust Indian doctors to do it?I know I`ve said this earlier, but it makes me very angry indeed. You`re entitled to think what you want, but this slanging match is ridiculous.
And yes, I know nobody asked me to read it, but this is a public forum. Get a life.

Ref Maasanamuthu #168

[Incestuating may not be a word...]

It is NOT a word. There is no `maybe` about it.

[... but that pretty much describes someone who has trouble recognizing the difference between fantasy and reality, leave alone his blood relatives from potential mating partners.]

I am the one who sees the REALITY everyday of yet another DMK leader, nursed in the bosom of The Great Intellectual and Doctor Artist Leader the Fund of Compassion falling down at the feet of Jayalalitha, a brahmin all of whom you were taught to kill.

My mating partners at least happen to belong to my species. I understand the local SPCA has received some complaints about your attempting to molest your daughter`s pet goat.

[Marrying your own nieces is not what they meant when they said push the envelope..]

I understand YOUR meaning of that term: you would be asking anyone requesting services that you are paid to provide to push that envelope stuffed with currency notes toward you.

[There`s a benign explanation for why you were denied admission. It was not caste or quota system. You are dumb as dirt.]

Your Dravidian Logic comes into play here. Of course not providing a false caste certificate is dumb in today`s Tamil Nadu. Getting a top rank in your University exams is dumb when you could have paid off the clerk who prepares the mark sheet. Getting admission to a major private university in the US with an assistantship and being the FIRST Indian in that particular department would be dumb because you could always get your degree from Perarignar Anna University of Technology and then get your daddy to send you to Podunk U in the US.

[What you write most of the time reads like a bunch of monkeys did indeed get possession of your computer. Your coherency is such that a second-grader learning to write sentences can do better than you on her bad day..]

A bunch of monkeys would write better Tamil songs than ``Ottakattha Kattikko``. How about translating that for the Chowk readership?

[Don`t blame your stupidity on anyone else. If you must blame, blame it on the inbreeding in your family. You do exhibit the classic symptoms of a manic depressive, which in many cases is due to unfortunate events within a family.]

The in-breeding as you call it has kept out idiots like you from polluting the gene pool. There is something to be said for 3000 years of concentrated intellectual activity.

By the way, I do see matrimonial advertisements like ``Chettiar boy, 28 years old earning Rs. 3500 p.m. wants girl under 26. Brahmins preferred`` in most of the Tamil magazines such as ``Mangai``. Can you show me ONE advertisement that says ``Brahmin boy wants a Chettiar/Reddiar/Mudaliar bride``? Looks like the only ones who want to improve their gene pools are your folks!

[Getting back to the subject, where is the evidence that I am a hypocrite? Don`t evade the question and resort to silly assumptions.]

There are NO assumptions. Unless you come out and claim you are a brahmin you have no way of demonstrating that you got in on merit. Of course you have already made the claim that you may not be a Tamilian. So one more denial of your origins shouldn`t be too hard.

[It`s pathetic that an older man like yourself has to be skewered in public like this crying for help from others, but you left me with no choice. As they say, put up or shutup.]

It should be obvious that I am NOT the one crying. The fact you have run away from the board ``Should Pakistan Too Dump the Commonwealth?`` after your attempt at licking the Pakistani butt proves who is pathetic in his attempts to win approval from somebody.

Tell you what: kill a Dalit and your daddy would approve.

#167
Incestuating may not be a word but that pretty much describes someone who has trouble recognizing the difference between fantasy and reality, leave alone his blood relatives from potential mating partners. Don`t do it because any children born would be more retarded than you. Cringe.. Marrying your own nieces is not what they meant when they said push the envelope..
There`s a benign explanation for why you were denied admission. It was not caste or quota system. You are dumb as dirt. What you write most of the time reads like a bunch of monkeys did indeed get possession of your computer. Your coherency is such that a second-grader learning to write sentences can do better than you on her bad day..
Don`t blame your stupidity on anyone else. If you must blame, blame it on the inbreeding in your family. You do exhibit the classic symptoms of a manic depressive, which in many cases is due to unfortunate events within a family.
Getting back to the subject, where is the evidence that I am a hypocrite? Don`t evade the question and resort to silly assumptions.
It`s pathetic that an older man like yourself has to be skewered in public like this crying for help from others, but you left me with no choice. As they say, put up or shutup.

Ref Modern-Day-Nazi #166

``Incestuating`` is NOT a word. So much for your attempts at using two-penny words. Sick to words of one syllable, you moron.

Goebbelism is at its highest when you say I hate people different from me but have only words of admiration for people who make statements like ``If you see a brahmin and a snake, kill the brahmin first``.

You ARE the hypocrite for stealing a professional education and a scholarship meant for some Dalit.

As to your pretensions to social justice, I know exactly what your kind practices in Tamil Nadu. It is: if you see a Dalit and a snake, kill the Dalit first.

Of course you don`t have the guts to touch a brahmin except to fall down at her feet as is happening daily in Chennai.

#165
Everyone? We?
How many voices do you hear exactly?
Prozac would be a good start.
Why the need to drag others into this argument? Feeling a little overwhelmed? Need company to commisserate with you? Help you out of your corner?
Where is the evidence I am a hypocrite, you lying, hating, incestuating, two-bit nincompoop?
How do you know I did or did not criticise something that happened eons ago? What does that have to do with you claiming here that muslims deserved to be killed? Just listen to yourself - you keep repeating the same trash that has nothing to do with me, and everything to do with some weird made-up reason for why you hate people who are different from you. What does the price of tea in china or Bhoj university or anything have to do with you being an incoherent, bigotted piece of low-life?
Where is the evidence that I am a hypocrite? Don`t change the subject now. If you do not answer that question, you will be flamed like you never have been in your life before. You ain`t seen nuttin yet..

Ref Modern-Day-Nazi #164

[Wow, really! YOU gave me time to respond to someone else?
I should be grateful I suppose.]

No. You should frikkin` respond to AnOrdinaryHindu.

[But all in good time.]

Yes. When Hell freezes over, I am sure.

[Don`t wriggle out of OUR argument now, right after telling me that I should have replied to another guy.]

You are the wriggling worm. Everybody sees your contortions in avoiding replying to AnOrdinaryHindu.

[So why is it that you think killing muslims in Gujarat was OK because someone rioted in TN after MGR`s death? What rube goldbergian logic is that?]

Despite your use of some fancy English -- picked up from reading some trashy magazines obviously -- it is obvious that you don`t understand what I write. Maybe I should try writing in Tamil for you. I asked where was YOUR condemnation of things similar to rioting and looting in Tamil Nadu whereas you are so generous with your criticism of the Gujarat riots.

[Why are you obsessed with the perversions of dead men when here you are (half dead as per your own logic) admitting to incestual perversions?]

The only incestual perversions I have seen all over Tamil Nadu are people of your ilk marrying their first cousins to keep their property in the family.

[Why is it that you, who is addicted to tamil filmi music, imagine everyone is like you and would want to know, smell and experience the same trash?]

It should be obvious to the most infantile minds that those with an appreciation for finer things in life such as classical music have no regard for base things such as film music. But that doesn`t mean that my ears aren`t assaulted by what you call `trash` (you just lost all your Chettiar friends for calling Kannadasan a trashy songwriter!) as I walk down the street in any town in Tamil Nadu or that this trash isn`t squarely aimed at people with your background and tastes.

[Where is the evidence that I`m a hypocrite? Remember, what the voices in your head tell you doesn`t count and your stupid assumptions about me don`t either. These were established in another thread. I gave you several pointers to logical argument there.
Start over and don`t be so ``generous`` the next time. Fight your own battles. Don`t expect someone else to come and rescue you. That ain`t happening. Get to work.]

Keep ranting. Your wife would be calling the loony police soon.

#163
Wow, really! YOU gave me time to respond to someone else?
I should be grateful I suppose.
But all in good time.
Don`t wriggle out of OUR argument now, right after telling me that I should have replied to another guy.
So why is it that you think killing muslims in Gujarat was OK because someone rioted in TN after MGR`s death? What rube goldbergian logic is that?
Why are you obsessed with the perversions of dead men when here you are (half dead as per your own logic) admitting to incestual perversions?
Why is it that you, who is addicted to tamil filmi music, imagine everyone is like you and would want to know, smell and experience the same trash?
Where is the evidence that I`m a hypocrite? Remember, what the voices in your head tell you doesn`t count and your stupid assumptions about me don`t either. These were established in another thread. I gave you several pointers to logical argument there.
Start over and don`t be so ``generous`` the next time. Fight your own battles. Don`t expect someone else to come and rescue you. That ain`t happening. Get to work.

Ref Dravidian Logician #161

[Just kidding. I ain`t goin` anywhere until either you stop ranting or check yourself into a mental ward.. ]

I gave you four full days to respond to AnOrdinaryHindu. Everybody on Chowk knows now that you are a gutless wonder.

Beautifully written! And really astute. South Asian literature is going the way of Rushdie a lot of the time, and in a bad way, because Rushdie can write, has a point. I like the fire in your writing, and the honesty. Thank you.

#160
You`re the expert on incestuous relationships...
#159
Conficius say if you come across a lunatic and a snake, run!
Just kidding. I ain`t goin` anywhere until either you stop ranting or check yourself into a mental ward..

#148 by nasah on December 2, 2003 7:17am PT

Thanks nasah saheb! We will need you guidance again.

Ref karuvattu-kuzhambu-trying-to-look-sophisticated #156

[#155 Unkalji, let`s not worry about people who are long dead & gone.]

I even went to the website periyar.org. There are quotes from Periyar on various subjects. But I couldn`t find the one about Tamil being a barbarian language and Tamilians being barbarians. Nor is that quote ``If you see a brahmin and a snake, kill the brahmin first`` anywhere to be found. Even better, his pronouncements on women do not seem to have his fulminations about rich old men marrying young girls.

The whitewashing of Periyar has already begun just like brainwashing idiots like you began 70 years back. All this sanitizing of Periyar`s record reminds me of Stalinist revisionism of Soviet history. No wonder Doctor Artist Leader the Fund of Compassion named his son Stalin!

Do you plan to name your son Adolf? Or would you prefer David Duke?

[Let`s worry about your perversions...]

Mine is listening to classical music. Yours is listening to ``Ottakattha kattikko``. So, when ARE you going to post the translation of that song on Chowk?

PS. I guess the true history of the Rationalist Movement is jolting you out of your cherished beliefs. Keep grasping at straws.

Ref AnOrdinaryHindu #154

[Soysuce ji]

As you can see from Reply #157, this cretin doesn`t need to be addressed with a respectful `ji`. The standard salutation among his people of his ilk is `Thayoli`.

Two years of posturing on Chowk is coming to naught for this idiot and Chowkies are finally able to see through his absolutely horrid belief system despite his professions of love for the minorities.

#155 Unkalji, let`s not worry about people who are long dead & gone. Let`s worry about your perversions...

#154
I`ll deal with one idiot at a time. Take a token and wait in line.

Ref d`Inde #151

[Uncle harimau, is it true that you`re a bachelor because your nieces haven`t come of age yet?]

That would still be better than what your Father Big Man (Thanthai Periyar) did: after preaching for a lifetime about the evils of rich old men marrying young women, marrying a woman 40 years younger!

I suppose that is one of your goals in life.

re: soysauce # 153

``And you have the gall to stereotype, caricature and condemn wholesale, people of other communities and religions. What a piece of Scheiße you are!``

Soysuce ji,

Given the blatant religious bigotry you have displayed, you shouldn`t be speaking for people who prefer not to ``stereotype, caricature and condemn wholesale, people of other communities and religions.``

Not stereotyping and caricaturing communities is a noble idea. Leave it for others who genuinely believe in it.

#152 harimau:
At least, I have the good sense to wait. Unlike you.

Finally! Continuing my logic lessons to you from another thread - you don`t know me. Hence your assumption about me is just that. An assumption, and a groundless one, I may add. But you have admitted that my assumption about you is correct. So, you are indeed a bachelor who is waiting to marry his niece or nieces when they come of age. And you have the gall to stereotype, caricature and condemn wholesale, people of other communities and religions. What a piece of Scheiße you are!

Ref Stuffed-Turkey #151

[Who are we? You and your other personalities?]

Me and other Chowkies who see thru you.

[Uncle harimau, is it true that you`re a bachelor because your nieces haven`t come of age yet?]

At least, I have the good sense to wait. Unlike you.

#150
Who are we? You and your other personalities?
Uncle harimau, is it true that you`re a bachelor because your nieces haven`t come of age yet?

Ref Inji-kari-kuzhambu #146

[I think what`s very rare among hindus is marrying more than 2 wives. I have a few relatives who are bigamists and we have politicians in the south who are bigamists. None of them has gone to jail.]

You don`t have to say anything about your relatives. We all know the sort of people you come from. Bigamy would be the least of their crimes.

As to not having more than two wives, Doctor Artist Leader the Fund of Compassion has had multiple wives. The one who goes around with him, Dhayalu, is supposedly his third but I was told she was actually his fourth wife. And then when his daughter Kanimozhi (Sweet Words or is it Thenmozhi, Honeyed Words?) got married, he responded to a question with ``I am her father but her mother is not my wife``, setting a glorious example for the Maasanamuthus of Tamil Nadu. Unfortunately, you are in the US and not even in Utah!

[As for bigamist hindus being denied government jobs, again, that may be something in the books but is never enforced.]

If you don`t report that you have multiple wives the government is not sending out investigators to look into your marital status. But if you think about it -- I know this would be really hard for you -- the reason of course is it would be hard to decide who would be eligible for the pension or the Provident Fund distribution should the man die.

urbashi

great posts...please keep contributing on literary matters.

dostmitter ji -- I AM against ALL censorships...

ther was a time we used to think that the intellectuals should not trample upon the socalled `sensitivities` of the communities -- we shouldn`t `hurt their feelings`

-- behind that misconception -- lies the prescription for immutable unchanging societies based upon faith and archiac religions -- with no possibilties of any meaningful social change -- or cultural reforms --

just keep on coddling the garbage that every community -- Muslim or Hindu -- has collected over the centuries in the name of `tradition` and `culture` -- with no real attempt by any one side to separate the rational from the irrational in their backyard --

of course everybody would like to reform the OTHER --but unable to see the beam in their own eyes.

who knows -- may be it is time to deliberately break the `precious` China of communties `sensitivities` about their obsolete `tradition` and decedant `culture` -- instead of pussyfooting around it

may be it is time to tell the communties a lot of traditions they feel so proud of are pure garbage -- dont stand the light of this age of reason and science -- and even some of rational teachings of their own relgion..

and by God -- both the Muslims and the Hindus of the subcontinent NEED tons and tons of social REFORMS...

Both communtiesw need to be weaned little by little from their pathological addiction to their mostly delusional religions and myriads of meaningless obssessive compulsive rituals --

by a deliberate means of what may seem to be a cruel `desensitization` process --

by deliberately `hurting` their feelings --

as done in a helter skelter ineffectual way -- by people like Rushdie, Nasreen, Fazli or Naipaul...

if we really want to eliminate extremism and terrorism....we have to wean communities from their HOLY BUSINESS -- of Holy this Holy that -- by the force of the argument -- not by bombing the villages....

if we really want to usher in a civilized era -- it would not be a bad idea to -- LOCK all the HOLY PLACES and -- BAN all the HOLY Books -- instead of banning the books by the likes of Rushdie, Tasleema, Fazli, Naipaul and others........:-)

nasah:
``mr. roy despite being a BJP Being is RIGHT on this point.... ``
bhaijaan, I have to disagree with you once again. Mr. Roy makes a valid point about the double standards used by the WB government. But beyond that he is wrong. Mr. Fazli`s book should stay on the shelves. If hindus think he is wrong, they should issue rebuttals; if they think he has committed slander, he should be sued in the court and let the court decide if the book should be withdrawn on that account.
It has been my constant and consisten theme that the earlier policy/politics of asymmetric secularism is responsible for the rise of the likes of Advanis if not of Modis and Mr. Roy`s demand to ban Fazli`s book proves the point. But the solution is to correct the wrong committed in the earlier case, not to compound it with committing another wrong. It is like Rajiv Gandhi laying the shilanyas of Ram Mandir at Babri Masjid after caving in to the Muslim fundamentalists in the Shah Bano case.
Will they ever learn?

#124
Farzana, I believe bigamy (polygyny) is actionable only if the first wife complains. This rarely happens. Therefore, while there may be differences in the personal laws as to how polygyny may be treated, in practical terms, there`s little difference. As far as I know, incidence of bigamy as a percentage of their population is the same for hindus and muslims. I think what`s very rare among hindus is marrying more than 2 wives. I have a few relatives who are bigamists and we have politicians in the south who are bigamists. None of them has gone to jail.
As for bigamist hindus being denied government jobs, again, that may be something in the books but is never enforced. I think it`s just harimau displaying his usual cretinous behavior. I`d ignore it.

Farzana, this is just what happens when politicians forget principles and think only of vote-banks. Personally I`m against all such censorship - the only things that shouldn`t be printed are absolute untruths - libels and slanders - but this book is after all a matter of opinion, and we`ve seen plenty of this kind of writing on chowk, haven`t we, to get offended by its anti-Hindu rhetoric. Why do you think this Roy from the BJP even thought of banning the book - because of Rushdie, Nasrin, etc., etc. I`m sure you know this argument. But two wrongs never make a right. Mr Roy and others of his ilk - of whatever religious (or should I say political?) persuasion should perhaps be reminded of a very important statement made by the novelist Bankim Chandra Chatterjee (you know, the one who is castigated for being anti-Muslim and who wrote Vande Mataram) in one of his novels, ``If you`re `adham` - despicable - why should that stop me from being `uttam` (superior)?`` And that also goes for the people who love to call others names as try to pass this off as civilized discourse. This, I believe, is the basis of both India and Hinduism. If you don`t like what somebody says, or disagree with the kind of language used, that`s fine, everyone can`t agree all the time, and it`s a healthy sign othat so many of us think at all. But this kind of tit-for-tat attitude needs to stop, and I don`t mean at Chowk. The main problem began with the ``left liberals`` who bent over backwards in their slogan of ``secularism`` - I do wish people really knew what secularism means and implies.
Now Nasrin would conflate all these stories (the Dharmendra-Hema Malini ``marriage``, the Raja Reddy story, the Ragini story), relate them to what she`d seen in her own life among Muslims (she`s given us plenty of examples in the first two volumes of her autobiography, naming names, which is what provoked the violent response to her writings rather than the so-called anti-Muslim stuff, she`s as bitter about Hindus and Buddhists!), and prove that this is what happens when we allow patriarchal attitudes to take over our lives. Nasrin is by no means a great writer - her novels are unreadable, as I`ve suggested - and of late she`s been writing with an eye to the Western audience and the stereotypes it likes, but her poetry, her columns and her autobiographies are honest and sincere, and do have a lot to say that we have to accept. In fact, I`d say, as a student of literature myself, that the autobiographies are exceptionally well-crafted, and I believe that only someone familiar with the nuances of the language she uses (which is not the Bengali of traditional written discourse) would be able to peel off the layers and understand the implications of what she says.

``If the participants in the bigamous marriage were named Mustafa, Sultana and Khadeeja, your stand against bigamy would have been applauded. It is as simple as that!``

my dear Harimau miaN -- it is not ``simplifying `` the matter -- it is complicating it...

are you saying that Farzana cannot trash Hindus`s bigamy because she is a monogamist Muslim -- but you being a Hindu monogamist can trash Muslim`s Bigamy at the drop of the hat?...

does that mean -- you can dish it but you cannot take it?

do you think this is reasonable

---

now don`t tell me that bigamy in Hinduism is now a new Holy Cow?

Ref FarzanaVersey #140

[Had my name been Falguni Vohra or some such thing, my stand against bigamy would have been applauded.]

Wrong!

If the participants in the bigamous marriage were named Mustafa, Sultana and Khadeeja, your stand against bigamy would have been applauded.

It is as simple as that!

``If she does not do so, she is a fukcing hypocrite and should keep her mouth shut in future regarding bigamy, especially when in her own community, men are allowed to marry more than once.``(Dr. Sridhar)

DOCTOR Sridhar sahib -- that`s no way for an educated DOCTOR to address a lady -- is this is the kind of manner they teach in med schools in India these days ....an apology please....and anger management...anger management....

``But when the state government has proscribed Taslima’s book, I felt it was time I mentioned this book in the interest of secularism.``

mr. roy despite being a BJP Being is RIGHT on this point....

why Tasleema is banned and Fazli is NOT .......

let the immature Muslims of India READ Tasleema -- they need to recieve shock therapy to wake them from their stuporous delusions....

Hindus are much more `mature` in this regard ..... nothing irritates them (except may be some dilapidated domes ).... not a good thing either .......for social reforms...

Had my name been Falguni Vohra or some such thing, my stand against bigamy would have been applauded. No one would have looked around for alternative professions for me. I am touched by the concern, only wish the language used was a bit more in keeping with such concern.

And re. Taslima and the fallout of the stay order, this might be of some interest...

From The Asian Age, November 30:
``BJP demands ban on Fazli’s book
- By Our Special Correspondent

Kolkata, Nov. 29: The state BJP president Tathagata Roy at a press conference on Saturday, demanded that the book, Hindutva Ebong Islam : Ekti Tulanamulak Alochona, (Hindutva and Islam : A Comparative Study) be proscribed as has been done in the case of Taslima Nasreen’s book Dwikhandita.

The book, written by Murtahin Billah Fazli and translated into Bengali by Maniruddin Khan, has been published by Abdul Rahaman Mallick of Mallick Brothers, College Street, Kolkata. It says, ``Hinduism is full of illogical thoughts, beliefs and superstitions.`` It has also described the Hindu Puranas as pornography and the writer has given vivid details of sexual escapades of Sri Krishna, Bramha and others.

Reading out several chapters from pages 10, 18, 118 and 121, Mr Roy said, ``The writer has blatantly attacked Hinduism and religious facts, revered as Puranas and said that those are simple pornography.`` The book says, ``Hindus have no fixed manner of worship. Hindus worship the Tulsi plant, cows, snakes, monkey, rats and the rest. Their objects of worship include the penis (the shiva linga) which is in reality a piece of stone sticking out of a replica of the vulva,`` Mr Roy said quoting from the book.

His contention was that ``If the so called secular Left Front government can ban Taslima Nasreen’s book on the charge of disparaging Islam in the interest of communal amity, why should this book be sold ?`` The book was bought by Mr Roy from the Kolkata Book Fair last year. Asked why he has been silent all this time, he said that he was silent because he did not want a controversy. ``But when the state government has proscribed Taslima’s book, I felt it was time I mentioned this book in the interest of secularism.`` The Trinamul Congress leader Pankaj Banerjee, however felt that writers and artists should be allowed freedom of expression.``

No sir, what we need is enforcement of existing criminal laws against those in power. Then we need reform of those laws that discriminate against segments of our society.

I agree with Harimou regarding this! I have interacted closely with the Indian bureaucracy and I have found that the problem was regarding bureaucrats not being able to ``Govern`` properly- all because of the Older variety of governance- non-transperancy- lack of repsonsibility at all levels- ans simple- INCOMPETENCE.
However, the new breed of technologically savvy bureaucrats are changing things- now these guys are getting the grip of things- there are laudable e-governance projects taken upo by states like AP, Maharastra, TN, Gujrat- and now J&K. I can predict that within 4 years, most of the State government secreteriats , including the Central Government ministires would be ONLINE with their paperless offices and complete automation of their workflows. India would be a greater force than what it is now- It would have a very powerful and efficient bureaucracy - all because of automation of their complex workflows- which would prune their work flows - do a BPR of the processes- expedite governmental processes- create online citizen interface - reduce manual interaction with the citizens- cut down corruption- improve efficiency- and hence the ECONOMY-
Just wait and see guys- the enemies would invest more on trying to sabotage the governmental networks than setting up their own house in order- but they would not succeed. India IS going to have Europe for breakfast!!!

re:#117 by FarzanaVersey
Looks like Farzana bibi has nothing better to do than protest against a man marrying 2 sisters. Yes, this is bigamy and it is unlawful but when the 2 sisters are not complaining, why is Farzana bibi protesting?

http://www.hindu.com/thehindu/2003/08/10/stories/2003081000131400.htm

``Hindus, Sikhs and Jains are governed by the Hindu Marriage Act, 1955 and the Hindu Succession Act, 1956. Although the law prohibits bigamy, the practice continues among Hindu men. A Hindu woman who seeks divorce or demands maintenance on grounds that her husband has contracted a bigamous marriage must prove that he has married again. Since marriages under the Hindu Marriage Act are not automatically registered, it is hard to prove.``

http://indiatogether.org/manushi/issue136/hml.htm

``What options are open to a woman whose husband marries someone else while still married to her? Is that bigamy?

Yes, marrying again during the lifetime of one`s wife or husband is known as bigamy. It is a criminal offence, punishable with imprisonment and fine. A bigamous marriage is void, a complete nullity (see answer to question No.5). If a woman has prima facie evidence that she is lawfully married to a man who is about to or has remarried, she can register a criminal complaint and the police are expected to stop him from getting remarried. If a wife learns that her husband is going to marry again she can get an injunction from the court forbidding the marriage before it occurs. After it has taken place, a wife can ask the court for a ``declaration`` that the second or bigamous marriage is null and void. Proving bigamy, however, is not easy. The complainant wife has to prove that both the marriages, her own as well as the second bigamous one, have been performed properly according to the appropriate ceremonies. Most prosecutions for bigamy fail because the complainant does not have the proof of the bigamous marriage. The accused husband can usually successfully claim against all efforts to prove the contrary that essential parts of the ceremony were never carried out and escape punishment. ``

Bigamy is clearly illegal. But as the above articles point out, it is difficult to prove legally. I believe the high profile marriage of Dharmendra and Hema Malini (while former was still married with a son) falls into that gray zone. I am not sure if the 2 are legally married. They may be but they certainly did not register it and nobody thought it fit to challenge them.


May i suggest some better vocation for Farzana bibi?
1. How about being involved in welfare activities of muslim minorities?
2. How about some research into why muslim minorities lead a ``ghettoed`` life and what can be done to bring them to the mainstream?
If India is to progress, all its sections must progress. Increasing marginalisation of its muslim minority is a disaster waiting to happen.
Sridhar

re: Farzana Bibi`s post # 124

http://www.tribuneindia.com/1999/99feb13/saturday/stamped.htm

Excerpts:

``At least I am convinced that the doors for practising in bigamy were opened the Dharmendra an Hema Malini. Till then, men were wary of condemnation by society at large, from the law and other repercussions. But I do not personally underestimate the impact of films and filmi heroes and heroines on the minds of the Indian people. They look up to filmi folks and films for a righteous path and judicious code of conduct (the noble person respecting the law while the villain is expected to break the law and all norms of society). Bigamy-inclined men saw a role model in Dharmendra and Hema Malini, who not only broke the law but also successfully cocked a snook at it openly.

Here I must share that one of Chandigarh’s extremely talented artists, rather under-employed in an office, and already married with one kid, was all set to marry a fellow artist, seriously arguing: ``If Dharmendra can manage two marriages, why can’t I?`` Of course, he was not counting on law or his low salary. Sense prevailed upon him when some friends intervened. Guess what? The poor wife, till date, is not aware of what was about to happen to her. The artist never took into account, besides law, the social disorder, the pain he would cause, and the illegitimate status of his children from the second woman. Following in the footsteps of Hema Malini and Dharmendra, some wayward husbands tend to ignore the fact that the filmi folks do not have to bother about the economics of life. But under the law of the land, both Hema’s daughters would always remain illegitimate, despite her visibly desperate efforts at socially legitimising them with the surname Deol. ``

``Says Justice R.L. Anand: ``Indulging in bigamy is punishable under the Hindu Marriage Act of 1955. Under Section 493, 494 and 495, there is ample scope to deal with these types of offenders. While Section 493 and 495 have a provision for awarding up to 10 years imprisonment, 494 on the other hand, if used, can put the guilty behind bars for 7 years``.

However, there is a lacuna in the laws dealing with bigamy. The courts are not supposed to take any cognisance of this offence if the aggrieved parties choose to remain silent. If the legitimate wife does not object, courts are not to take notice of any such practice. The law does not seem to be geared to the situation, keeping in view the conditioning of the mind of a majority of Indian women, who tend to be easily subjugated, and the social set-up, wherein a woman divorced or confronting her husband in the courts has very fragile support to fall back on.``

Here is a question for Farzana. Would she see it fit to write a letter to the same newspaper ``Asian Age`` protesting against the marriage of Dharmendra and Hema Malini. Belated though this may be, it would make a strong case for a pro-active judiciary to be involved. If she does not do so, she is a fukcing hypocrite and should keep her mouth shut in future regarding bigamy, especially when in her own community, men are allowed to marry more than once.
Here is another vocation for Farzana Bibi:
How about spreading awareness among the muslim men (especially mullahs)that bigamy practised by muslims (and enshrined in the Shariat laws) is harmful to muslim women and should be changed?
Sridhar

Urbashi

Good, well argued, informative posts, thanks for writing them.

#126 by harimau:
Where have I spoken in favour of Muslim men marrying four times? If you support bigamy for the sake of convenience, then you can start such a movement…am sure many men will join you.


Urbashi (#130, 133):

This is the sort of discussion I wanted to begin with, and not deconstruction, from someone who knew the language, the ethos... So, thanks for a closer look than any of us might get, at least on Chowk.

It is tough enough for some of us to grapple with the English translations of her books, now you tell us to read her columns. That is not relevant here. This is why I did not quote anything from her interviews in the article. I have not supported the ban on her book; but to say that by writing about the men (and I don’t care whether it is Muslim men or Hindu men or men from Mars) she is exposing patriarchy is a bit of a stretch. I have suggested that she might be too naïve, among other things, so when you say she feels she has hurt herself the most, it only proves one of my points. She may say that she is not a Muslim or does not belong to any religion, but she writes with that background in mind.

Salam Azad’s name came up because it was around the same time that Nasreen was getting into trouble.

As regards some of the points you have raised, I have responded in several interacts here should you be interested. It is amusing that many who are speaking up for Taslima have problems about my speaking out, even though it is for a far more limited audience. Therefore, I suppose we just have to accept disparate views.

[Perhaps you need to take a look at Ashish Nandy’s recent interview in the Times of India about the failure of the Indian Muslim leadership to realize the differences among Muslims. You don’t need to agree with him, but perhaps you do need to open your mind?]

This is just so strange, for almost all my articles emphasise the same points he is making (incidentally in the early 90’s I had interviewed him for ‘The Sunday Observer’, so these views are not new to me). Since you have brought this up, let me give you a couple of quotes from the TOI interview…

“There is no pan-Indian Muslim leader but there is no pan-Indian Hindu leader either. There are regional and local leaders and there is nothing wrong with that. Ethnic nationalism or religious nationalism smothers the natural process of displacement of traditional leadership. Middle class Muslim nationalism sabotaged the natural process of electoral democratisation. This natural process of democratisation has not taken place in Pakistan too where electoral process is still dominated by the feudal class. Today, we are faced with a new breed of leaders who have not tasted power for centuries and when they do they will remain in power come what may. Mayawati, Mulayam Singh Yadav, Laloo Prasad, Vajpayee are all examples.”

“Is the media responsible for propping up the hardliners?

Yes, to a great extent the media explosion has made leaders out of Togadia and Shahi Imam. They are the media’s gift to us. The secular media is more at fault since it is ignorant and contemptuous of religion. It also looks for easy divisions.”

Ref nazarhayatkhan #132

[On Women`s empowerment

Unfortunately, at the end of the day, in our socities (particularly Pakistan), the women have to fight these battles themselves.NoPresident,Prime Minister, Legislature sticks out his necks for them. Even women MNAs of MMM in the National Assembly do not support the women causes for equality, freedom, justice. They give the same Mulla`s theories.]

I must respectfully disagree with you on this.

Very few social movements for change in the Indian subcontinent have been led by those who were directly affected.

Sati was abolished by the British government under Lord Bentinck.

Child marriages were made illegal by the British government.

These despite the pledge of the British Crown to respect the religious beliefs of Indians after the Mutiny of 1857.

The fight to open the temples to Harijans was led not by Harijans but upper caste Hindus who saw the injustice of it.

If we are to remove the impediments faced by any group within our societies, leaders must come forth from the EXISTING power structure to remove them.

Even in the US, how long did Blacks have to wait for civil rights? Even the 1954 Supreme Court decision in Brown v. The Board of Education mandating desegregation was fought well into the early 80s, though under different guises.

It took the leadership of Lyndon Johnson -- and the assassination of John F. Kennedy -- for the US Congress to pass the first civil rights act.

Even now you have women like Phyllis Schlafly -- who herself is well off and thus able to skirt the laws with impunity -- trying to keep women down in the name of social conservatism.

[Once equipped with the tool of good education, they have the motivation and self-interest to take on the constitution, the law, the holy scriptures, the Mulla - by themselves.]

You will find that in our villages our women have a pretty good idea what is right and what is wrong. They don`t need a college education to tell them that. What they need is the support of the police to implement and enforce laws on the books regarding criminal behavior.

What I say goes as much for rural Balochistan as ``enlightened and educated`` Tamil Nadu. Some three months back, an educated woman working as a school teacher in a village sued for divorce from her husband (who is from the same village). The woman and her mother were dragged in front of the village panchayat, made to apologize to all those assembled by bending down and touching their feet, and fined Rs. 25,000. She was then ordered to withdraw the divorce petition. The local police completely ignored the situation. The High Court in Madras took notice of the case (from newspaper reports), had the panchayat leaders arrested and brought before it. The court then ordered the repayment of the fines collected, and when I left India had not yet decided on punishment for the guilty.

No sir, what we need is enforcement of existing criminal laws against those in power. Then we need reform of those laws that discriminate against segments of our society.

Harimau # 125

On Women`s empowerment

Unfortunately, at the end of the day, in our socities (particularly Pakistan), the women have to fight these battles themselves.NoPresident,Prime Minister, Legislature sticks out his necks for them. Even women MNAs of MMM in the National Assembly do not support the women causes for equality, freedom, justice. They give the same Mulla`s theories.

Once equipped with the tool of good education, they have the motivation and self-interest to take on the constitution, the law, the holy scriptures, the Mulla - by themselves.

Further to my earlier post:

1. The title of Nasrin’s autobiography is Amar Meyebela, which translates as My Girlhood. There is no Bengali equivalent for “girlhood”, and the word for “boyhood” is supposed to cover the childhoods of both boys and girls (there is also one gender-neutral word for childhood, “chhotobela”). But girlhood as a word and, most importantly, as a concept does not exist. Thus in coining the word “meyebela” Nasrin emphasizes, among other things, the significance of her being a girl child – something that the South Asian ethos (whether Hindu, Muslim, Christian, or, as Nasrin shows, Buddhist) has always ignored. A girl asserting herself/her selfhood? No way. Someone can and always will do it for her. Why does she need her own voice? The girl child can always be an object (of pity, sympathy, whatever), but never a subject. Now Nasrin demands that her subjectivity be accepted.
2. She also points out through her title that she is talking not in general terms but about her OWN growing-up years, her OWN discovery of what it means to be female, hence “amar”, my. The South Asian tradition of autobiography generally focuses on the relationship of the writer to the larger socio-political events of the day rather than digging deep into the writer’s psyche. Certainly Bengali women autobiographers generally wrote about the way things had changed socially between the time they were children and the way things are now, and never about what was really going on under the carpet – the quilt, to use Chugtai’s symbol. In fact, most South Asians, whether male or female, are very reticent about things that Nasrin forces her readers to see, particularly the reality behind the family values that we tom-tom to the world as being so fundamental to our society. It’s not a Hindu-vs. -Muslim thing that Nasrin engages in, nor an anti-Muslim tirade, it’s a vehement protest against patriarchal South Asia. Can we honestly say that the things Nasrin talks about don’t happen? We may not like what she says, but can we really deny their truth? We always airbrush inconvenient truths, but the sooner we open our eyes to the kind of abuse that goes on under the cover of “family ties” the better for our society. It’s painful, gut-wrenching, to read what she says, and to realize how true it sounds. She shocks people, she’s brash and refuses to be indirect, and that’s something we can’t accept, especially when it comes from a woman. In fact, when South Asian women want to write about these things they prefer the obliquities of fiction. Kamala Das is the only South Asian woman’s autobiography I’ve read which is nearly as bold as Nasrin’s – but Das wrote hers in English, and an English-reading audience has a more so-called “liberal”, Westernized education, and more exposure to the questions she raises. She doesn’t shock people like Nasrin, who writes in a Bengali that is far removed from polite written discourse, being practically indistinguishable from a mofussil, marginalized small-town oral dialect, so that it becomes the raw voice of the subaltern in pain. If it’s very well crafted, it doesn’t mean it’s inauthentic.
3. Unfortunately the American edition of the English translation has changed the implications of her title. It says “My Bengali Girlhood” – as though it’s only because Nasrin grew up in Bengal that her experiences were what they were. Certainly, at any rate, her circumstances were not those of the average Bengali Hindu in middle-class Kolkata, so the generalization of the English title is unfortunate and misleading, and the subtitle, about growing up female in a Muslim family, also panders to Western stereotypes. It’s obviously been chosen with an eye to the Western market following 9/11.
4. What did Farzana mean by saying that asking a Bengali to eat beef is like asking an Eskimo to live in an igloo? It shows complete and utter ignorance about Bengal. FYI, Bengali Muslims in Bangladesh do eat beef but Bengali Hindus by and large don’t. That’s why it’s so important that her Hindu characters in Lajja decide to eat beef. Farzana doesn’t understand the implications of the statement, “Most of Suranjan’s friends were Muslim. None of them thought he was Hindu.” This certainly doesn’t mean that Nasrin was saying that “a religious person could not have friends from another community”, nor that religious faith necessarily makes you inhuman. Lajja is set in Bangladesh, remember? And that’s a place where Hindus are now a shrinking minority. Suranjan’s immediate family, you’ll recall, have deliberately chosen to stay on, because they believe in the concept of “desh”, home – this is their home/homeland and they don’t want to leave for an Indian Bengal which would be foreign to them. That’s why they try to assimilate as much as they can and carefully and deliberately choose to mix with Muslims rather than ghettoize themselves. That’s what makes what happens to them so tragic. The point is that Nasrin suggests that their going away to India won’t really make for a happy ending. It’s a sad one, for both Suranjan’s family and for Bangladesh. India is certainly not the light at the end of the tunnel for Nasrin. The novel is badly written, but it’s certainly not full of stereotypes from Hindi masala movies. Basically even here Nasrin isn’t attacking Islam so much as power-hungry people – obviously in a Muslim-majority society they would be Muslims, but the Hindus are no less venal. The attack, I have to stress again and again, is against patriarchy, not against Islam or any other religion. Farzana needs to know something about places and cultures not identical to her cosy little Bombay upper-middle-class background, Muslim or otherwise. Perhaps you need to take a look at Ashish Nandy’s recent interview in the Times of India about the failure of the Indian Muslim leadership to realize the differences among Muslims. You don’t need to agree with him, but perhaps you do need to open your mind?
5. You don’t need to compare Nasrin with Salam Azad. Bengal has a long tradition of feminist resistance and protest, especially against the use of religion to reinforce patriarchal norms, that goes back at least to Chandrabati in the 14th century (incidentally, Chandrabati belonged to East Bengal, now Bangladesh). Nasrin therefore belongs to a long line of women writers that includes 20th-century writers like Mahashweta Devi, Rokeya Begum, and the diasporic novelist Dilara Hashem. The only difference is that she writes autobiographies; they write novels. It would be more useful to see her in her own context instead of comparing her to Chugtai or to Salam Azad or any male writer.

re harimau
``Even then, the man is not eligible for a government job. Bigamists cannot be employed by the government according to government regulations.

Er.... except of course the minority that is allowed four wives.``

This is the theme, absolutely not understood by the anti-Hindutva crowd, that bothers so many ordinary, secular Indians about the double standards that Congress tolerated and perhaps encouraged. That a secular India, that too led by the BJP, tolerates the non-sense of the so-called Muslim Personal Law Board is an abomination. Specially so because it continues to violate the spirit of the Supreme Court orders to create a unform code pronto. You guys ought to take care of Imam Bukhari and the rest of that treasonous crowd. Frankly, India has been a bit too tolerant of the kind of folks who throw acid on unveiled women, who want the right to marry and divorce at will without consequences, and who utter treason from the sanctified pulpits of houses of worship. No wonder BJP is attracting more and more of the regular Joes.

Farzana, have you read Nasrin`s Dwikhondito before you sat down to comment on it? Have any of the Chowkies?

Have you in fact read anything by Nasrin at all, except for (perhaps!) a translation (an English one?) of what is perhaps her most poorly written work, Lajja? Do you know what she`s written in the two earlier volumes of her autobiography? Before anyone begins to deconstruct her, or her works (or anybody else’s, for that matter), isn`t it expected that s/he take the trouble to read what’s actually been written, instead of depending upon news reports and journalistic reviews?

Nasrin has also said, remember, that she`s hurt nobody but herself by her revelations about her relationships with men. I don`t see why people are so upset that she should be so frank about this. Double standards? How do readers react when men describe their relationships with women? I remember how outraged people were when she talked of sexual pleasures and bodily functions (shit-and-vomit stuff, someone remarked) in the first two parts of Amar Meyebela. But why can’t she write like this, even if it means offending South Asian aesthetic sensibilities? Perhaps South Asian sensitivities/sensibilities do need a good shaking up once in a while. Maybe it’s time some people realized that a spade spattered with blood is quite literally a bloody shovel. If you think she’s doing it to put down Muslims, or South Asian Muslims (w