Destruction of World’s Eastern Heritage in Iraq

Re #25 TAhmed ``subroto #18 good one ;-) ``
Thank u guruji at least someone got it.

And then one got to read this article -
``For all his faults, Saddam Hussein was protective of archaeology``
Arrgh! Much as I did not agree with the method of removal (collateral damage and all that), the one positive thing has been the removal of Saddam. Now I find that archaeologist are missing him! True as he cunningly placed humain remains in mass graves for others to dig up and find - all in the spirit of scientific discovery. Maybe then they should have taken him to US and left him in charge of the Smithsonian

Pardesi:

``That’s very sad. I had never heard this. I wonder what reason GOI has for not returning the historic documents ``

Inertia. They had initially denied taking the stuff. Then they kept on denying it because that is what had been done earlier and no one wanted to rock the boat. Now no bureucrat wants the responsibility of handing it over till there is a political discussion. Politicians do not want to touch the issue because there is so much controversy and no one has clean hands. Congress and Captain Amrinder Singh are giving bamboo to Badal. If the stuff is handed back it will give ammo to Badal and Tohra to hit back.

wajahat #28: i see you posed a question to me (about whether US internvention in Iraq has been good for iraqis), then provided the answer you anticipated from me (i.e. yes), and then agreed with it. that makes my work as chowk poster easy. i wish all chowk posters would do this. :-)

more seriously, you agree you say for different reasons than what i would have. i.e. you envision iraqis fighting against US occupation broadening into a general uprising in the middle east against kings and dictators in that region.

maybe so, although that would have to be a stretch, i think you would agree, from where things are today. however, tossing out dictators and kings by itself does not mean anything unless we know that a democratic constitution and the rule of law would then prevail in the middle east. and those are not built, unfortunately, overnight. indeed, the only revolution i can think of that resulted in a democracy was the American revolution (and excuse me if you are annoyed by my casting US in a favorable light again, but as you and i agree - facts are more important than prejudices). unless you count Indian independence as a revoltion - but that wasnt the armed insurrection you have in mind for the middle east and the major decisions were literally taken around a round table by men talking like civilized people to one another.

this is just another example of there being no short cuts in life. the best thing that could happen in iraq, imho, is for iraqi general elections to be held (rather than an armed inusrrection) as currently evisaged, and for the international community (the US alone or through UN) to provide the military force needed to protect the democratic constitution (against ambitous iraqi generals e.g.) until the democratic institutions take root over a period of a decade or so.

sounds strange? this is exactly what happened in Japan and Germany. But then, Germany had an Adenauer to provide the statesmanship needed to harness allied forces to the cause of German democracy, and so were the post-war Japanese leaders. Will iraq produce and Adenauer? I pray to God it does.

PanjabiZulu #29 Thanks for posting the article, which i read. you are right - that article, written by a newspaper that no one would confuse as being pro-american, shows clearly how far off base singh is in his (what else can one call it) in this hot air ballon of an article.

wajahat

Read the article and accept what he says before yelping, then come back to me on the substantive points.

btw, sarcasm is not your strength, so dont embarass yourself by using it.

Sure , We can trust Punjabi Zulu to read David Aaronvitch, the apologist for Israel and paint the entire world with a Leftist brush, in a single stroke as it is so conveinient to do. Hmmm maybe the entire world has the disease of Anti-Americanism and is wrong and only Punjabi Zulu(s) and Aaronvitch(s) know the truth.

God Bless America

tahmed32

Hot air it is, and indeed, was. This article will single handedly skewer Mr Singh, Wajahat and all their claims of ``cultural genocide`` in respect of the looting and destruction of the cultural riches of Baghdad.

Somtimes hatred of America becomes so heated and overblown that people cannot help but make themseleves looks silly, anyway, read the article.

(It is taken from The Guardian too, the bible of the British left, and an aggresively anti-American newspaper)


{{So, there`s the picture: 100,000-plus priceless items looted either under the very noses of the Yanks, or by the Yanks themselves. And the only problem with it is that it`s nonsense. It isn`t true. It`s made up. It`s bollocks}}



http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,974193,00.html

# 23

Micheal M, This is obviously a gridlock that I would have with your otherwise balanced views. Public debate take place in societies that would feel that their words and efforts will have an effect on the general reality of their social condition. I can argue points with you or tahmed becos I am aware of the fact that I am being heard. In a country that is ruled on the basis of power and hegemony, being heard is the last thing on the minds of its people. Infact being heard is probably the precursor of a lot of strive and hassle in the police/army state that we have become. If you talk against the structure of govenrment the army will do you, if you talk about the negative forces of religion , you will be done under blasphemy laws. We are numbed by our circumstance as individuals and as a collective society. And yes it an eastern problem. But can I take your attention back to 1950-60s when progressive thought was crushed (Faiz, PWA) by a military dictator hell bent by American precedents to root out the evil of Socialism. Since then aparts from manufacured dissent nothing has emerged from Pakistan aparts from religious extremism.

Religious extremism is dissent cloaked and disguised in religion and is the repressed version of educated and open dissent. As a society a large part of our masses are not allowed free speech over government structure. Democracy is a feudal and Commercial entity and a person is democratically elected because they represent the highest amount of vested interest. Yes it is an eastern problem, i agree, but do not loose sight of the forces at work, the representation of foreign motives.

#26, 27 T ahmed

loyalty should be to facts and to the truth. only then can one be loyal to one`s people (whoever those people are - the west, the east, or (as i believe one should be if one understands the message of the Quran) to ALL mankind). to cook up facts and to twist reality to suit one`s prejudices is not being loyal to anything or anyone other than to one`s own prejudices and insecurities.

Mr Ahmed I agree with your points wholeheartedly. Although you generic statements are honest and unprejudiced, we mustn`t forget that this debate started about Iraq. Forgetting Mr Singh`s article for the moment, do u believe that Iraq today is better off than it was under saddam. Knowing your optimism for American rule you would agree it is. And I tell you what I agree with you. based on entirely different contentions than yours. Iraq is heading towards a vietnam type quagmire where america will be devising a escape strategy in less than 2 years to a maximum of 4 years. The toned down terrorist attacks of today would have turned out into an all out civil/freedom war against the occupiers. This would have severe effects on entire middle east, the effects in Saud`s arabia will be felt and will have deeper significance than any occupation on iraq would have.

And to think that this would have been avoided if America did not put Saddam in power after destabilising the first democracy in Arab world back in the 60s. Therein dear sir lies the story of our demise. We are decadent, powerless, voiceless and repressed in our countries because we are ruled by demagogues who imbibe the words of their Bosses. Why do u think religious extremism is taking root in a nation, its easier to dissent cloaked under the banner of God, the army will not neccessarily touch you. But these religious dissenters also find themselves in the company of men who have travelled back in time. We are between a rock and hard place.

You know what due to the nature of the debate, the west comes under a serious assault here at chowk(quite rightly so) , Would you then like to share your views about religious extremism and the chaotic roots of this intolerance in our society.

And I am not part of elite, infact I am anti-elitist at best.

I guess this is all hot air for you.

wajahat #21 i should also add that it is not ``loyalty`` to any land - the land of one`s birth or the land where one now lives - that is important. There is a higher loyalty - i.e. loyalty to the facts. Here is the list of factual errors and misrepresentations in the article:

1. ``In spite of warnings, the most comprehensive archives of Iraq`s history were set ablaze.`` I dont recall reading these warnings in the copious articles, discussions before the war. Indeed the major concerns related to environmental damage caused by saddam setting oil wells ablaze. It is easy to criticize with 20-20 hindsight. but pointless and unfair.

2. Professor Michalowski of Michigan said that this was ``a tragedy that has no parallel in world history; it is as if the Uffizi, the Louvre, or all the museums of Washington DC had been wiped out in one fell swoop``.

This professor M. i am sure said that, as did the other professors that singh quotes. But to compare the value of lost historical treasures is meaningless. and, while quoting some western professors is not equivalent to stating facts.

incidentally: i wonder what professor M. (or singh) had to say when the taliban deliberately destroyed the afghan buddhas. i wonder if you are prepared to condemn the countless muslim invaders to india who have defaced buddha statues and destroyed temples of worship. are you prepared to condemn mahmud ghazni for destroying somnath?

3. he writes: ``Others used phrases such as cultural genocide and compared the US in particular to the Mongol invaders of 13th-century Iraq. `` the mongols made a pillar of heads of the residents of baghdad and turned mosques into horse stables. to compare the US action in iraq with the mongol invasions indicates a total lack of concern for facts.

4. ``Martin Sullivan, Chairman of President’s Advisory Committee on Cultural Property and its member Gary Vikan resigned because the US military had had advance warning of the danger to Iraq’s historical treasures.`` See 1. above. If they had resigned BEFORE the invasion, that would be different. if the US military had advance warning that it ignored, then resigning would have made sense.

5. `` The great arch of Ctesphion, still the widest unsupported brick arch in the world, was cracked by the vibrations of the American carpet bombing.`` By no stretch of imagination can the US bombings be called carpet bombing. in fact, the opposite is true with the use of smart bombs and focussed targetting. if singh wants to see carpet bombing, he should see what the germans did to the brits in london, what the brits and the americans did to dresden, what the japanese did to nanking. This loose use of terms reduces the article to hot air.

6. `` For all his faults, Saddam Hussein was protective of archaeology, promoting it for a national rebirth and a repeat of the glories of the past, and comparing himself to Nebuchadnezzar (what about US presidents as Roman emperors ) who had built the Hanging Gardens of Babylon.`` singh is scraping the bottom of the barrel to find something good to say about saddam. saddam protected archaeology as part of his own strategy to stay in power. here again singh distorts facts by giving only a very partial glimpse of the truth - the whole truth being that saddam was protective of his OWN idols above all - having littered the iraqi countryside with himself dressed up in more different costumes than an indian film heroine changes in one movie.

I could go on, but will stop here. also note the points that michael m. makes which point to additional misrepresentations in this article.

as i said - loyalty should be to facts and to the truth. only then can one be loyal to one`s people (whoever those people are - the west, the east, or (as i believe one should be if one understands the message of the Quran) to ALL mankind). to cook up facts and to twist reality to suit one`s prejudices is not being loyal to anything or anyone other than to one`s own prejudices and insecurities.

Well,

``These usual suspects however cannot stand such viewpoints. All they want to hear is the greatness of their adopted lands and acquired nationalities. Questioning that would be too much for their guilt ridden souls. They consider just one thing to be the epitome for everything that has gone wrong with the east, religious, political, cultural backwardness, which are undoubtedly major problems with questionable sources. Its a catch 22 for them. ``

The west have a very sad past, but doesn`t mean than the politician etc. from the east can do whatever they want because it`s not their fault after all. The article is well documented, but it`s not enough to be well documented for saying the truth and not a political radical and unfounded point of view.
The problem, in our case, is not the west and the east but a proper east problem, who think that west is purely rational and dont`t accept non rational things (like religion). It`s widely accepted in private lives, but not in a public secular debate, because there is no other bases there than faith. I don`t care if you believe in the pink invisible Unicorn, if you don`t force me to follow her dogma because you think that she exists.
And I don`t want to hear greatness of the west, because to say `it`s good it`s good` doesn`t make it good.

Well...

wajahat: you are entitled to your views (as you just did, and as singh just did). you are not entitled to make up facts however. and while you are entitled to your views, views that are not anchored on facts are nothing but hot air. your post therefore is hot air. the favorite past-time of the pakistani elite.

subroto #18 good one ;-) welcome back to chowk.

michaelM #17 your objections are quite accurate. the author is just blowing hot air when he talks about alexander being glorified in the west. in fact, in many ways alexander has been accepted in the east as much as in the west: ``iskander`` (for alexander), for example, is a popular name for boys in pakistan. alexandria is of course a major city in egypt. and the simple point is that the west (and the more progressive parts of the world as well, like japan, china, and i believe a vast number of indian middle class as well) has moved beyond the ``military conquest`` stage of human development anyway.

if anything the popular heroes today among youth are sports figures. not politicians, not religious fanatics, not empire builders, and certainly not long dead empire builders.

your post also takes a balanced view the contributions of different societies. every society owes a major debt to societies that came before and much to learn from them. the mark of a progressive society is that it recognizes this fact. thus, centuries ago baghdad was a center of learning where greek scholars and indian scholars both came together and contributed to arab culture in medicine and mathematics - in today`s state of decay in that same part of the world, such appreciation of other cultures would be unheard of.

so the points you make are quite valid. dont wait for singh to acknowledge that though (he does not seem to be around to respond to questions raised about his article).

`` The Empire Has No Clothes

The US, for all its armed might, cannot really be said to exercise political power in Iraq, and it cannot hand over to someone else what it doesn`t yet possess...``
(JONATHAN SCHELL)

``Relinquishing the fantasy of a victory in Iraq is the true moral mission of our time.``
(Jonathan Schell)

Mr Singh

A very well written & extensively researched article which is unfortunately taken negatively by some of the usual suspects here at chowk. It seems almost any form of questioning from a writer of an eastern origin prompts somehow the question of betrayal to West. Yes it is true that West has some excellent examples of how a society should be, unfortunately there is a bigger disease at the heart of this western civilisation which rots not only these nations but has violent and bloody consequences(Proxy Dictators and Sheikdoms) in the east.

These usual suspects however cannot stand such viewpoints. All they want to hear is the greatness of their adopted lands and acquired nationalities. Questioning that would be too much for their guilt ridden souls. They consider just one thing to be the epitome for everything that has gone wrong with the east, religious, political, cultural backwardness, which are undoubtedly major problems with questionable sources. Its a catch 22 for them.

however thank you for your well researched article and we (atleast some of us) look forward to your next article.

Keep Writing.

Regards

Syed Ali

Anybody watch Tariq Ali on C-Span2 today? He talked at Johns Hopkins University on Nov 20 and that talk was (re?)braodcast today.