Destruction of World’s Eastern Heritage in Iraq

For those who are interested:

www.blairfacedlies.org

wajahat

I am laughing at you, not with you, like when you try and crack jokes about defaults and stuff like that and blurt out slogans like a parakeet on heat. Read tahmed32`s last post, you just dont make sense and there seems to be a discrepancy between the images you form in your head and what you put into words.

wajahat #65 i afraid sir but i dont see much logic in your post. if there is something specific i wrote that you wish to question, i will be glad to discuss that further. but just reciting slogans doesnt solve anything nor does it constitute a discussion. anyway, cheers till we perhaps meet again on some other board.

tahmed ,

Tahmed zindabad, this obviously is the first battle cry for the tahmed pilot project, I hope you succeed :)

On a serious note, your optimism is based on the long term views that after the blood, the toil, the bodies somehow democracy will prevail and the gringos are infact right everytime. I lack that amount of optimism and base my views on historical examples which are plenty and continue to buildup, palestine, jihadis in pakistan after the Afghan war of the 80s etc. Injustices are strange and we do find ourselves amidst stark choices, Palestine for example is viewed in the US as an Arab problem, whereas me and my ilk, as I am increasingly referred to here at chowk, consider palestine to be a problem of zionist racism and the sordid American power structure. Thus, we find ourselves on two opposite sides. If miracles were true, now is the time to see one.


PZ, I am glad that atleast I am amusing you, you know I am always happy to entertain you. For future entertainment please keep reading :)

Many Thanks

And least I forget, God bless America, Ahmed Chalabi and Sharon. Not that they need it as presumably as Mr Bush declares God is on their side by defaults...Defaults are funny things.

wajahat

Man, I really am being to enjoy reading your posts they are funny.

wajahat: you think there is a better alternative to democracy and capitalism, and i agree (my turn to surprise you, i guess).

you dont mention the better alternative, but this is what i have in mind: all political power and material resources of the world (or even of one trial country - i am amenable to a pilot project here) will be consolidated with me (tahmed, i.e.). as you are well aware of my enlightened views, i will no doubt do a great job of ensuring truth, peace and justice prevail. that resources are allocated nicely, starting with widows and orphans.

the above is my concept of a better alternative. ;-)

but more seriously, for all practical purposes ultimately SOMEONE (president, prime minister, caliph, martial law administrator, arab sheikh, king, dictator, mard-e-momin) has to have supreme executive authority in soceities. The question then is: How is this someone chosen? and the only alternative to one-man one-vote has been force of arms. even in iran the mullahs do not allow non-mullah candidates to elections, thus stifling choices. they can hide the fact that they have imposed themselves as rulers through force by claiming to be representatives of God, or by claiming to be nationalist heroes standing up to the west.

similarly, on capitalism: i am not calling for unbridled capitalism. what we need is a careful mix of regulatory framework (that serves as brakes on capitalist excesses that can harm the environment, stifle competition etc.) with private entrepreneurship (which has proved to be the dynamo that has transformed human societies by introduce countless innovations including the computers you and i are using.

the US model has sought to combine the two of course, and to date has proved itself to be more successful in terms of improving the lot of the ordinary citizen than all challengers (the most serious challenge being the communist challenge, which now lies in the same dustbin of history that the communists used to claim would be the fate of capitalism).

So: the question is not if capitalism or democracy are better than any alternative. time has proved they are. the question is, HOW can they be made to work? This is particularly significant for us pakistanis - next door we see how india has in a slow but steady manner built upon its commitment to democracy to start moving its 1 billion people forward. we in pakistan have been fooling around with islamic ideology and martial law adminsitrators who promise to fix everything - and as a result we are still at square one.

finally: as for the US having the power to fix the world - i think you overestimate (as many people in pakistan do) the power of the US. it is after all one country only with a population only about twice the size of pakistan and with vast commitments - advancing the frontiers of science, medicine, technology.

the biggest cost of 9/11 has in fact been the diversion of resources from medical research to that of fighting terrorism (whether using the correct strategy or not is besides the point). this is the real cost to all humanity that the islamist terrorists have caused. so let us stop treating the US as if it had godlike powers and unlimited resources, since it does not. lets just be glad we have more and more nations on earth (in europe, india and china) that are beginning to see the path forward for humanity is the one the US started on two hundred years ago. we muslims can either join the rest of humanity on this path, or we can wander around in the forest bad mouthing the US and other nations (including india and israel) that are already on this path.

Subroto #36 yes indeed. Saddam the Archaeologist. Not only did he preserve existing archaeological treasures, he created new ones for scientists to discover a thousand years from now: the mass graves you mention. also his 32 palaces in baghdad, which no doubt will become the 8th wonder of the world. saddam idols will be prized possessions of any museum, just like greek statues are today. :-)

#33 Tahmed

My pleasure to present your viewpoints in advanced, I feel its also due to the fact that we have had these conversation or tangents of these conversations in the multitude, which has enabled me with a foresight of your reply :)

Moving on, Imperial experiments as you repeat in Germany and Japan are a product of World Wars where both the countries subdued after a huge war effort by a Number of nations uniting against both germany and japan. Both countries gave the ``percieved`` west a huge fight before ending up in the clutches of the United Nations(which is now irrelevant to your president). Japan is a model of advancement in our world because of its technological advancements. Germany again is known for its technological advancements. Both countries demonstrating that once subdued in war , Capitalism can surge into the veins of the people and a few decades later the only difference between tokyo in Newyork would be the language.

I respect your views and your optimism for a better future, but the only thing that i do not agree with is the notion that western democracy & capitalism is the best alternative to all the problems in the world. I do not agree with you on that. You simplify things and nations and cultures on the basis that everything can become better if it adopts the western methodology, You ignore the power and importance of regional identities and how they are formed on the basis of collective prejudices. The Arabs today in the petrol rich shiekdoms if we ascribe to your views have the biggest chunk of western lifestyle and instutions available to them yet their behaviour is ugly and more backward than it was in the time of Huzoor PBUH. There is a very definitive problem mr ahmed when a prescribed form of democracy is imposed upon nations, it creates inequality and digressions. The repression gives birth to fundametalism, as men hate without question based on collective prejudices.

My only contention with your views is that if by Miracle in America a government comes in the next election that respects and uses it powers to nourish democracy from the roots , this world might become a different place. America has the power to change the fate of this world, yet its misusing its power to create plunders all over the world, arab, southeast asia, south america.

Today we have the leaders of the free world calling everyone in iraq who fights a terrorist, and I cannot accept any peripheral arguments by the Imperialist defenders and apologist that we need this to get to somewhere better. Better for whom, What happened in Afghanistan?

Intolerance, violence and war will only be answered by sabotage, gorrilla warfare and violence. You bomb a nation to bits and then expect it to lay down flowers whilst you enter as victors is a very old roman adage which is still ascribed by the Imperialist.

PZ come up something original for a change, thanks.

Re #25 TAhmed ``subroto #18 good one ;-) ``
Thank u guruji at least someone got it.

And then one got to read this article -
``For all his faults, Saddam Hussein was protective of archaeology``
Arrgh! Much as I did not agree with the method of removal (collateral damage and all that), the one positive thing has been the removal of Saddam. Now I find that archaeologist are missing him! True as he cunningly placed humain remains in mass graves for others to dig up and find - all in the spirit of scientific discovery. Maybe then they should have taken him to US and left him in charge of the Smithsonian

Pardesi:

``That’s very sad. I had never heard this. I wonder what reason GOI has for not returning the historic documents ``

Inertia. They had initially denied taking the stuff. Then they kept on denying it because that is what had been done earlier and no one wanted to rock the boat. Now no bureucrat wants the responsibility of handing it over till there is a political discussion. Politicians do not want to touch the issue because there is so much controversy and no one has clean hands. Congress and Captain Amrinder Singh are giving bamboo to Badal. If the stuff is handed back it will give ammo to Badal and Tohra to hit back.

wajahat #28: i see you posed a question to me (about whether US internvention in Iraq has been good for iraqis), then provided the answer you anticipated from me (i.e. yes), and then agreed with it. that makes my work as chowk poster easy. i wish all chowk posters would do this. :-)

more seriously, you agree you say for different reasons than what i would have. i.e. you envision iraqis fighting against US occupation broadening into a general uprising in the middle east against kings and dictators in that region.

maybe so, although that would have to be a stretch, i think you would agree, from where things are today. however, tossing out dictators and kings by itself does not mean anything unless we know that a democratic constitution and the rule of law would then prevail in the middle east. and those are not built, unfortunately, overnight. indeed, the only revolution i can think of that resulted in a democracy was the American revolution (and excuse me if you are annoyed by my casting US in a favorable light again, but as you and i agree - facts are more important than prejudices). unless you count Indian independence as a revoltion - but that wasnt the armed insurrection you have in mind for the middle east and the major decisions were literally taken around a round table by men talking like civilized people to one another.

this is just another example of there being no short cuts in life. the best thing that could happen in iraq, imho, is for iraqi general elections to be held (rather than an armed inusrrection) as currently evisaged, and for the international community (the US alone or through UN) to provide the military force needed to protect the democratic constitution (against ambitous iraqi generals e.g.) until the democratic institutions take root over a period of a decade or so.

sounds strange? this is exactly what happened in Japan and Germany. But then, Germany had an Adenauer to provide the statesmanship needed to harness allied forces to the cause of German democracy, and so were the post-war Japanese leaders. Will iraq produce and Adenauer? I pray to God it does.

PanjabiZulu #29 Thanks for posting the article, which i read. you are right - that article, written by a newspaper that no one would confuse as being pro-american, shows clearly how far off base singh is in his (what else can one call it) in this hot air ballon of an article.

wajahat

Read the article and accept what he says before yelping, then come back to me on the substantive points.

btw, sarcasm is not your strength, so dont embarass yourself by using it.

Sure , We can trust Punjabi Zulu to read David Aaronvitch, the apologist for Israel and paint the entire world with a Leftist brush, in a single stroke as it is so conveinient to do. Hmmm maybe the entire world has the disease of Anti-Americanism and is wrong and only Punjabi Zulu(s) and Aaronvitch(s) know the truth.

God Bless America

tahmed32

Hot air it is, and indeed, was. This article will single handedly skewer Mr Singh, Wajahat and all their claims of ``cultural genocide`` in respect of the looting and destruction of the cultural riches of Baghdad.

Somtimes hatred of America becomes so heated and overblown that people cannot help but make themseleves looks silly, anyway, read the article.

(It is taken from The Guardian too, the bible of the British left, and an aggresively anti-American newspaper)


{{So, there`s the picture: 100,000-plus priceless items looted either under the very noses of the Yanks, or by the Yanks themselves. And the only problem with it is that it`s nonsense. It isn`t true. It`s made up. It`s bollocks}}



http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,974193,00.html

# 23

Micheal M, This is obviously a gridlock that I would have with your otherwise balanced views. Public debate take place in societies that would feel that their words and efforts will have an effect on the general reality of their social condition. I can argue points with you or tahmed becos I am aware of the fact that I am being heard. In a country that is ruled on the basis of power and hegemony, being heard is the last thing on the minds of its people. Infact being heard is probably the precursor of a lot of strive and hassle in the police/army state that we have become. If you talk against the structure of govenrment the army will do you, if you talk about the negative forces of religion , you will be done under blasphemy laws. We are numbed by our circumstance as individuals and as a collective society. And yes it an eastern problem. But can I take your attention back to 1950-60s when progressive thought was crushed (Faiz, PWA) by a military dictator hell bent by American precedents to root out the evil of Socialism. Since then aparts from manufacured dissent nothing has emerged from Pakistan aparts from religious extremism.

Religious extremism is dissent cloaked and disguised in religion and is the repressed version of educated and open dissent. As a society a large part of our masses are not allowed free speech over government structure. Democracy is a feudal and Commercial entity and a person is democratically elected because they represent the highest amount of vested interest. Yes it is an eastern problem, i agree, but do not loose sight of the forces at work, the representation of foreign motives.

#26, 27 T ahmed

loyalty should be to facts and to the truth. only then can one be loyal to one`s people (whoever those people are - the west, the east, or (as i believe one should be if one understands the message of the Quran) to ALL mankind). to cook up facts and to twist reality to suit one`s prejudices is not being loyal to anything or anyone other than to one`s own prejudices and insecurities.

Mr Ahmed I agree with your points wholeheartedly. Although you generic statements are honest and unprejudiced, we mustn`t forget that this debate started about Iraq. Forgetting Mr Singh`s article for the moment, do u believe that Iraq today is better off than it was under saddam. Knowing your optimism for American rule you would agree it is. And I tell you what I agree with you. based on entirely different contentions than yours. Iraq is heading towards a vietnam type quagmire where america will be devising a escape strategy in less than 2 years to a maximum of 4 years. The toned down terrorist attacks of today would have turned out into an all out civil/freedom war against the occupiers. This would have severe effects on entire middle east, the effects in Saud`s arabia will be felt and will have deeper significance than any occupation on iraq would have.

And to think that this would have been avoided if America did not put Saddam in power after destabilising the first democracy in Arab world back in the 60s. Therein dear sir lies the story of our demise. We are decadent, powerless, voiceless and repressed in our countries because we are ruled by demagogues who imbibe the words of their Bosses. Why do u think religious extremism is taking root in a nation, its easier to dissent cloaked under the banner of God, the army will not neccessarily touch you. But these religious dissenters also find themselves in the company of men who have travelled back in time. We are between a rock and hard place.

You know what due to the nature of the debate, the west comes under a serious assault here at chowk(quite rightly so) , Would you then like to share your views about religious extremism and the chaotic roots of this intolerance in our society.

And I am not part of elite, infact I am anti-elitist at best.

I guess this is all hot air for you.