Destruction of World’s Eastern Heritage in Iraq

#11 by tahmed32 on November 27, 2003 12:19pm PT

``you are quite inaccurate when you say that saddam was protective of archaeology.``

Perhaps you missed out the satire in my posting. Never have I meant to laud Saddam

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the worst serial mass murderer in Middle Eastern history. I had merely quoted the author. My objective is to reveal the idiocy (``1 bull > 10 humans``) in the rantings of the America bashing club.

Cordially,
OM

Now seems to be a good time to mention that one man`s Mede is another man`s Persian.

This attempt to reconsider west from the eyes of an Indian occidentalist is remarquable in his lack of impartiality. Just an exemple:

How Alexander “the Great “ has been glorified as a Western conqueror of the East. He >was a small town homosexual boy who was taught the intricacies of state protocol, >running of an empire and the divinity of the emperor by older civilisations of Asia Minor, >Egypt and Persia. If he had followed the advice of his teacher Aristotle and not learnt >from the so called barbarians, his vision would have remained limited and shallow.

First, Alexander have been glorified also by the east, for his conquests. Maybe he was a small town boy, but son of a king, not of a shepherd.
This idea that if you`re not from a city you`re nothing let us think that Romulus an Remus, in the roman mythological history, were nothing.
To point out that he was homosexual, something in fact recognised like a normal thing in ancient Greece, and not like a perversion (and I still think that is not a sin to be like we are), is just homophobia, and no answer has to be given to it.

About the idea that with the muslims, all the greek heritage was maintain, it`s not completely true. Of course they translate and saved the texts, but from where? Do you think that the Roman empire, and the roman religions were based on nothing? To think that only one group can thing for two is a kind of chauvinist point of view (we are here to civilised you).

And just think a little: from where does come the concept of Europe and Asia?
There`s a difference between India, Iran, Arab countries, Europe, but why do you suppose than Iran is with India and Iran, and the Arab countries, when Europe is just alone? Is it not a greek concept, reproduced after again and again, on religious arguments, by proto-orientalists and orientalists? You can denounce it but not say that is not a fact.


Oh yes, also:
The divergence between conscious intuition of the East and rational thought of the West >was perhaps complete after de la Carte announced “I think therefore I am. ‘ Of course >there`s no place for intuition in this
First it`s not `De la Carte`, but Descartes (more than one card).
Of course, there`s place of intuition in it, but it`s not a method for all things of the life, it`s just a statement: I am (that even doesn`t say that the others are).

So, even if the intention is comprehensible, the lack of understandment of what is occident (looks like the lack of understandment of lots of orientalists) doesn`t make a solid brick in the wall of the `shock of the cultures`.
If the intention is to say: we are good, we are the best, and America, and the whole west in fact, is bad, I will say that is non sense. If it`s not the case, what is the intention?

Tahmed32,

You should be downright ashamed podner! Inspite of watching so many hindi movies you pakis still did not know this??? OK, how many times have you seen Sholay...who was thakur baldev singh, gabbar singh ...tsk,tsk gabbar ka naam poora mitti may mila diya :)


Pardesi,

There are so many singhs in the north that I suspect its not the rajputs and jats alone with the `singh` middlename.

There are a few down south too...where people have an unabashed admiration for the northerners who sacrifised for the freedom struggle. I had a junior in college called `bhagatsingh` (one word) from Andhra!

Pardesi: Thanks for adding to my knowledge on the non-sikh singhs. this will definitely add to my expertise Trivial Persuits in time for the world championships. This being Mr. Singh`s second article in a few days on that tired old theme concerning the evil west that third world intellectuals harp about from the comfort of their homes in the west (and in which Mr Singh presumably resides after having completed his visa application and stood in line hoping to be let in, just like brother urstruly) , that i thought i might check if khalistan was ready so he could go and live in a country that is up to his moral standards.

#12 by tahmed32 ”gajendra singh: I assume you have made khalistan by now”

Fyi, There are many communities (e.g., Rajputs and Hindu Jats) who use Singh as middle or last name. Assuming Gajendra Singh is a Sikh, how did you jump to the conclusion that he is a Khalistani?
Also, would you please allow an Indian/Hindu/Sikh also write articles related to Arab countries, if they wish, without Pakistani muslims` permission?

America is bad and a lawless country but it is not fair to blame everything on them. I don`t think that they deliberately let looters loot the museums as the first paragraph of the article suggests. The fact of the matter is that as the video game war was over and americans had killed reasonable amount of Iraqi women and children with their ``precision`` bombs they decided to set foot on Iraqi soil to receive their hard earned flower garlands from the public they just murdered in cold blood. But they had no idea what they were about to be hit with. The poor guys couldn`t even tell left from right with in hours of setting foot on Iraq. By the time looters were looting museums and hospitals they were peeing in their pants.

ordinary muslim #9: you are quite inaccurate when you say that saddam was protective of archaeology. saddam, like all dictators, was protective first and foremost of his throne. and his strategy for this purpose was to portray himself as a modern day nebuchadnazzer, an arab hero standing up to the west. this strategy fitted well with his ego as well. and it was the same strategy that led him to litter iraqi cities and countryside with saddam idols. his was the same strategy that was followed by the iranian shah pehalavi as well - another ``secular`` leader in the muslim world. He too made a big deal about ruins of the pre-islamic iranian empire.

of course ``religious`` leaders of the muslim world are just as bad. only thing is, that instead of trying to portray themselves as idols, they destroy ancient relics in the name of relgion. as the taliban did in case of buddhist ruins.

either way you look at it, muslim ``leaders`` - secular dictators or religious fanatics - are full of shi!t.

of course that does not prevent some ``ordinary muslims`` from looking up to them. as you just did.

gajendra singh: I assume you have made khalistan by now, and thus have spare time to write articles on chowk to help muslims get their jollies whining about how bad the US is (this time for letting those brave and noble iraqis steal from their museum).

#1 Dullabhatti -- ``looting of the Golden Temple``

That’s very sad. I had never heard this. I wonder what reason GOI has for not returning the historic documents :(.

#5 by sigalph235

``...leaves one with the feeling that it is another one of those `Blame America First` commentaries. ``

In 1994 Serbs shelled and burnt the Sarajevo Museum. But culture lovers across the world were deafeningly silent. And now they have raised a hue and cry about the non-looting of Baghdad Museum. So what`s the difference between the two museums?

Simple; the occupying power in Iraq was the US. What if the looting had been carried out with (say) the Chicoms or Soviets in control? Museum `lovers` would have gone silent.

When the Chinese communists overran Tibet, their troops used ancient religious writings as firewood. Where is the outcry about that?

BOTTOMLINE:

1. Museums are important if their looting can somehow be pinned on the US.

2. 1 bull > 10 humans. -- ``For all his faults, Saddam Hussein was protective of archaeology ... 10 men from near Mosul who had cut the head off an Assyrian winged bull at Khorsabad, were executed. ``

Gajendra sahab,

``...western (hence Greek) philosophy, which begins with Thales (who predicted 585 BC solar eclipse).``


Here`s something from `Early Greek Astronomy to Aristotle` by D.R. Dicks:


``The story in Herodotus(i,74,2) that Thales foretold a total solar eclipse which took place during a battle between the lydians and the persians (28 May 585 BC) cannot possibly be true as it stands, since it is out of the question that Thales could have had the astronomical competence necessary for such a prediction.

The most that can be said is that he might have heard from babylonian sources of an 18-year cycle in which both solar and lunar eclipses may repeat themselves in roughly the same positions. There is some evidence that such a cycle was in use at least for lunar phenomena in early Babylonian astronomy, and Thales may somehow have connected it with a solar eclipse, so as to give rise to the story that he predicted it.``

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You write truly Sir, when you say that for today`s western culture, Greece is their cultural champion...whom they will continue to prop up...come what may.

all those saying this shoulnt be a ``blame america`` fest. It is the responsibility of occupying force to maintain peace and order. there were several reports on how the US condoned or even encouraged the looting. Indded, some us soldiers themselves were caught with artifacts taken from museums and palaces.

A well researched article and a sobering conclusion.

Ciao

Very good historical data and meticulously researched in that aspect. Yet leaves one with the feeling that it is another one of those `Blame America First` commentaries.

dullabhatti -- ``looting of the Golden Temple``

This simply goes to show us that the more powerful any central government is the worse evil it can (and WILL) do. Strong central governments, with their mindless bureaucracy and lethal military machines are the greatest forces of evil on earth (in terms of magnitude, scope and impact. The greater their power the greater the evil. By this meteric, therefore, the US federal government --in its totality-- may be considered the greatest source of evil on the planet today. (Much of it done with good intentions no doubt.)

Gajendra Singh is to be commended for so meticulously recounting the gems of human heritage and for focusing on this tragedy and putting in perspective its scope. I like the implications that the author draws from the intellectual acceptance of Darwin vs Lamark. Being a former (now-recanted and reformed) Marxist I`ve always had a soft corner for the Lamarkian view. But be that as it may, we live in a Darwinian world, which brings us to the issue of survival in these turbulent times.

General Tommy Franks (former commander of US Central Command) says that a WMD attack on the US will lead to military style rule and the end of the US Constitution.


It was a bit of a surprise to see Tommy Franks concure with some of my own apprehensions and fears which some of my friends consider to be a product of my ``paranoid thinking.``

One of the big reasons behind our decision to move out of the US is the high likelihood of some future ``terrorist`` event leading to a strong reactionary upheavel in this society that could mercilessly sweep away the life, liberty and property of bystanders such as myself (and many other Chowk readers).

What happened to the museums in Iraq could, at a smaller scale, happen to the personal property of many of the Chowk readers if the situation were to become ripe. We are surely living the great Chinese curse.

...SR