Destruction of World’s Eastern Heritage in Iraq

At least some of the looters of Iraqi heritage were nice enough to return it. Read below how some of the looters never return the loots. 20 years gone...we have it but won`t return it to you.

George Fernandes admits Army removed items from Golden Temple during Operation B
EXPRESS NEWS SERVICE

---

AMRITSAR, MAY 24: The Central Government has for the first time acknowledged the claim of the Shiromani Gurdwara Parbandhak Committee (SGPC) that the Army had taken away valuable historical books, paintings and other material during Operation Bluestar in 1984.

Defence Minister George Fernandes yesterday wrote to SGPC Secretary Gurbachan Singh Bachan saying the books and documents that had been picked up from the Golden Temple library had been handed over to the Central Bureau of Investigation (CBI) by the Army authorities. He has asked the SGPC to take up the matter with the Ministry of Personnel, Public Grievances and Pension since the CBI comes under the jurisdiction of that ministry.

The SGPC has been writing to the Central Government for more than 12 years now, urging it to acknowledge that the Army had taken away important documents from the Sikh Reference Library inside the Golden Temple.

It had claimed that the library had a rich treasure of rare documents, books and manuscripts pertaining to the Sikh religion and the history and culture of Punjab besides material on the people of South-East Asia.

The SGPC had alleged that the Army had depleted the library with the ``evil design`` of depriving the Sikhs access to their glorious heritage. It had also alleged that to cover up this act, the library had been later burnt down.

In a recent letter to Fernandes, Bachan had said the Army had taken the material to the Youth Hostel in Amritsar, where `share cataloguing` was done. He stated that on September 2, 1984, on the eve of a Sikh convention, the Army stopped its cataloguing work, packed the entire material into 20 trunks and some jute gunny bags and had it carted away by the CBI.

Bachan said the SGPC had started correspondence with the Prime Minister in 1988 and some material was returned to the temple. However, he added, 90 per cent of the material continued to be with the Government and is reportedly lying at the Meerut Army Cantonment.

The SGPC had written to the Centre last in April.


Copyright © 2000 Indian Express Newspapers (Bombay) Ltd.

Here is how history repeats itself while Baghdad Burns....

if fact -- it is not the fault of the American -- there is something in the city itself that invites and attaracts -- the Mongols and the Mongoloids...

“Mongol Hulagu Khan Chinggis`s Khan’s grandson in 1258 seized Baghdad and killed the last Abbasid caliph. Hulagu made a pyramid of the skulls of Baghdad`s scholars, religious leaders, and poets, and he deliberately destroyed what remained of Iraq`s canal headworks. The material and artistic production of centuries was swept away.

Before the fighting even began, the Abbasids were at a disadvantage.

The problem for the Abbasids was the centuries-old rift between the Sunni and Shi`ite Muslims. The caliphate was Sunni, as were most of its subjects, but there was a Shi`ite minority under Abbasid control who welcomed the Mongol invaders as a potential means of bringing down the Sunni caliph.

Many Shi`ites in Iraq joined the Mongol forces for that reason.

Additionally, the caliph`s vizier, or second-in-command, was himself Shi`ite, and it has been suggested that he might have also co-operated with the Mongols in attacking the caliphate.

The Mongols also had the support of non-Muslims under Abbasid control. Many Christians in the region saw the Mongols as saviours, hoping that by decimating Islam`s adherents, the faith itself would also be destroyed. Indeed, in return for Christian support, the Mongols - some of whom were Nestorian Christian themselves - spared Christian churches and communities from their pillaging.

Another Mongoloid from Texas invaded Baghdad in 2003 sacked the Museum of Antiquity after dropping 3000 bombs in 48 hours.... kicked the Sunnis into a Triangle -- released the Shiite from their Rectangle -- hopes the Shia will help him rule Iraq for 7 - 10 years.....little does the stupido know.....

so what else is new -- my friend Gajendre Singh ji -- great piece -- wish you had not blamed the Muslims for not saving the antiquity....

hope you have visited 5000 thousand years old -- continuously existing city -- Luxor -- on the Nile in Egypt -- I have -- and let me tell you the Muslim Egyptians being the Muslims they -- are `fanatic` -- about protecting and preserving their 5 - 7 thousand year old heritage -- that they are still digging...

I admit though -- the ones who stole the pieces were indeed the Muslims....but then again the Babri masjiod`s were not.....:-)

just kidding...

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

dullabhatti -- ``looting of the Golden Temple``

This simply goes to show us that the more powerful any central government is the worse evil it can (and WILL) do. Strong central governments, with their mindless bureaucracy and lethal military machines are the greatest forces of evil on earth (in terms of magnitude, scope and impact. The greater their power the greater the evil. By this meteric, therefore, the US federal government --in its totality-- may be considered the greatest source of evil on the planet today. (Much of it done with good intentions no doubt.)

Gajendra Singh is to be commended for so meticulously recounting the gems of human heritage and for focusing on this tragedy and putting in perspective its scope. I like the implications that the author draws from the intellectual acceptance of Darwin vs Lamark. Being a former (now-recanted and reformed) Marxist I`ve always had a soft corner for the Lamarkian view. But be that as it may, we live in a Darwinian world, which brings us to the issue of survival in these turbulent times.

General Tommy Franks (former commander of US Central Command) says that a WMD attack on the US will lead to military style rule and the end of the US Constitution.


It was a bit of a surprise to see Tommy Franks concure with some of my own apprehensions and fears which some of my friends consider to be a product of my ``paranoid thinking.``

One of the big reasons behind our decision to move out of the US is the high likelihood of some future ``terrorist`` event leading to a strong reactionary upheavel in this society that could mercilessly sweep away the life, liberty and property of bystanders such as myself (and many other Chowk readers).

What happened to the museums in Iraq could, at a smaller scale, happen to the personal property of many of the Chowk readers if the situation were to become ripe. We are surely living the great Chinese curse.

...SR

Very good historical data and meticulously researched in that aspect. Yet leaves one with the feeling that it is another one of those `Blame America First` commentaries.

A well researched article and a sobering conclusion.

Ciao

all those saying this shoulnt be a ``blame america`` fest. It is the responsibility of occupying force to maintain peace and order. there were several reports on how the US condoned or even encouraged the looting. Indded, some us soldiers themselves were caught with artifacts taken from museums and palaces.

Gajendra sahab,

``...western (hence Greek) philosophy, which begins with Thales (who predicted 585 BC solar eclipse).``


Here`s something from `Early Greek Astronomy to Aristotle` by D.R. Dicks:


``The story in Herodotus(i,74,2) that Thales foretold a total solar eclipse which took place during a battle between the lydians and the persians (28 May 585 BC) cannot possibly be true as it stands, since it is out of the question that Thales could have had the astronomical competence necessary for such a prediction.

The most that can be said is that he might have heard from babylonian sources of an 18-year cycle in which both solar and lunar eclipses may repeat themselves in roughly the same positions. There is some evidence that such a cycle was in use at least for lunar phenomena in early Babylonian astronomy, and Thales may somehow have connected it with a solar eclipse, so as to give rise to the story that he predicted it.``

- - - - - -

You write truly Sir, when you say that for today`s western culture, Greece is their cultural champion...whom they will continue to prop up...come what may.

#5 by sigalph235

``...leaves one with the feeling that it is another one of those `Blame America First` commentaries. ``

In 1994 Serbs shelled and burnt the Sarajevo Museum. But culture lovers across the world were deafeningly silent. And now they have raised a hue and cry about the non-looting of Baghdad Museum. So what`s the difference between the two museums?

Simple; the occupying power in Iraq was the US. What if the looting had been carried out with (say) the Chicoms or Soviets in control? Museum `lovers` would have gone silent.

When the Chinese communists overran Tibet, their troops used ancient religious writings as firewood. Where is the outcry about that?

BOTTOMLINE:

1. Museums are important if their looting can somehow be pinned on the US.

2. 1 bull > 10 humans. -- ``For all his faults, Saddam Hussein was protective of archaeology ... 10 men from near Mosul who had cut the head off an Assyrian winged bull at Khorsabad, were executed. ``

#1 Dullabhatti -- ``looting of the Golden Temple``

That’s very sad. I had never heard this. I wonder what reason GOI has for not returning the historic documents :(.

gajendra singh: I assume you have made khalistan by now, and thus have spare time to write articles on chowk to help muslims get their jollies whining about how bad the US is (this time for letting those brave and noble iraqis steal from their museum).

ordinary muslim #9: you are quite inaccurate when you say that saddam was protective of archaeology. saddam, like all dictators, was protective first and foremost of his throne. and his strategy for this purpose was to portray himself as a modern day nebuchadnazzer, an arab hero standing up to the west. this strategy fitted well with his ego as well. and it was the same strategy that led him to litter iraqi cities and countryside with saddam idols. his was the same strategy that was followed by the iranian shah pehalavi as well - another ``secular`` leader in the muslim world. He too made a big deal about ruins of the pre-islamic iranian empire.

of course ``religious`` leaders of the muslim world are just as bad. only thing is, that instead of trying to portray themselves as idols, they destroy ancient relics in the name of relgion. as the taliban did in case of buddhist ruins.

either way you look at it, muslim ``leaders`` - secular dictators or religious fanatics - are full of shi!t.

of course that does not prevent some ``ordinary muslims`` from looking up to them. as you just did.

America is bad and a lawless country but it is not fair to blame everything on them. I don`t think that they deliberately let looters loot the museums as the first paragraph of the article suggests. The fact of the matter is that as the video game war was over and americans had killed reasonable amount of Iraqi women and children with their ``precision`` bombs they decided to set foot on Iraqi soil to receive their hard earned flower garlands from the public they just murdered in cold blood. But they had no idea what they were about to be hit with. The poor guys couldn`t even tell left from right with in hours of setting foot on Iraq. By the time looters were looting museums and hospitals they were peeing in their pants.

#12 by tahmed32 ”gajendra singh: I assume you have made khalistan by now”

Fyi, There are many communities (e.g., Rajputs and Hindu Jats) who use Singh as middle or last name. Assuming Gajendra Singh is a Sikh, how did you jump to the conclusion that he is a Khalistani?
Also, would you please allow an Indian/Hindu/Sikh also write articles related to Arab countries, if they wish, without Pakistani muslims` permission?

Pardesi: Thanks for adding to my knowledge on the non-sikh singhs. this will definitely add to my expertise Trivial Persuits in time for the world championships. This being Mr. Singh`s second article in a few days on that tired old theme concerning the evil west that third world intellectuals harp about from the comfort of their homes in the west (and in which Mr Singh presumably resides after having completed his visa application and stood in line hoping to be let in, just like brother urstruly) , that i thought i might check if khalistan was ready so he could go and live in a country that is up to his moral standards.

Tahmed32,

You should be downright ashamed podner! Inspite of watching so many hindi movies you pakis still did not know this??? OK, how many times have you seen Sholay...who was thakur baldev singh, gabbar singh ...tsk,tsk gabbar ka naam poora mitti may mila diya :)


Pardesi,

There are so many singhs in the north that I suspect its not the rajputs and jats alone with the `singh` middlename.

There are a few down south too...where people have an unabashed admiration for the northerners who sacrifised for the freedom struggle. I had a junior in college called `bhagatsingh` (one word) from Andhra!

This attempt to reconsider west from the eyes of an Indian occidentalist is remarquable in his lack of impartiality. Just an exemple:

How Alexander “the Great “ has been glorified as a Western conqueror of the East. He >was a small town homosexual boy who was taught the intricacies of state protocol, >running of an empire and the divinity of the emperor by older civilisations of Asia Minor, >Egypt and Persia. If he had followed the advice of his teacher Aristotle and not learnt >from the so called barbarians, his vision would have remained limited and shallow.

First, Alexander have been glorified also by the east, for his conquests. Maybe he was a small town boy, but son of a king, not of a shepherd.
This idea that if you`re not from a city you`re nothing let us think that Romulus an Remus, in the roman mythological history, were nothing.
To point out that he was homosexual, something in fact recognised like a normal thing in ancient Greece, and not like a perversion (and I still think that is not a sin to be like we are), is just homophobia, and no answer has to be given to it.

About the idea that with the muslims, all the greek heritage was maintain, it`s not completely true. Of course they translate and saved the texts, but from where? Do you think that the Roman empire, and the roman religions were based on nothing? To think that only one group can thing for two is a kind of chauvinist point of view (we are here to civilised you).

And just think a little: from where does come the concept of Europe and Asia?
There`s a difference between India, Iran, Arab countries, Europe, but why do you suppose than Iran is with India and Iran, and the Arab countries, when Europe is just alone? Is it not a greek concept, reproduced after again and again, on religious arguments, by proto-orientalists and orientalists? You can denounce it but not say that is not a fact.


Oh yes, also:
The divergence between conscious intuition of the East and rational thought of the West >was perhaps complete after de la Carte announced “I think therefore I am. ‘ Of course >there`s no place for intuition in this
First it`s not `De la Carte`, but Descartes (more than one card).
Of course, there`s place of intuition in it, but it`s not a method for all things of the life, it`s just a statement: I am (that even doesn`t say that the others are).

So, even if the intention is comprehensible, the lack of understandment of what is occident (looks like the lack of understandment of lots of orientalists) doesn`t make a solid brick in the wall of the `shock of the cultures`.
If the intention is to say: we are good, we are the best, and America, and the whole west in fact, is bad, I will say that is non sense. If it`s not the case, what is the intention?

Now seems to be a good time to mention that one man`s Mede is another man`s Persian.

#11 by tahmed32 on November 27, 2003 12:19pm PT

``you are quite inaccurate when you say that saddam was protective of archaeology.``

Perhaps you missed out the satire in my posting. Never have I meant to laud Saddam

---

the worst serial mass murderer in Middle Eastern history. I had merely quoted the author. My objective is to reveal the idiocy (``1 bull > 10 humans``) in the rantings of the America bashing club.

Cordially,
OM

Anybody watch Tariq Ali on C-Span2 today? He talked at Johns Hopkins University on Nov 20 and that talk was (re?)braodcast today.

Mr Singh

A very well written & extensively researched article which is unfortunately taken negatively by some of the usual suspects here at chowk. It seems almost any form of questioning from a writer of an eastern origin prompts somehow the question of betrayal to West. Yes it is true that West has some excellent examples of how a society should be, unfortunately there is a bigger disease at the heart of this western civilisation which rots not only these nations but has violent and bloody consequences(Proxy Dictators and Sheikdoms) in the east.

These usual suspects however cannot stand such viewpoints. All they want to hear is the greatness of their adopted lands and acquired nationalities. Questioning that would be too much for their guilt ridden souls. They consider just one thing to be the epitome for everything that has gone wrong with the east, religious, political, cultural backwardness, which are undoubtedly major problems with questionable sources. Its a catch 22 for them.

however thank you for your well researched article and we (atleast some of us) look forward to your next article.

Keep Writing.

Regards

Syed Ali

`` The Empire Has No Clothes

The US, for all its armed might, cannot really be said to exercise political power in Iraq, and it cannot hand over to someone else what it doesn`t yet possess...``
(JONATHAN SCHELL)

``Relinquishing the fantasy of a victory in Iraq is the true moral mission of our time.``
(Jonathan Schell)

michaelM #17 your objections are quite accurate. the author is just blowing hot air when he talks about alexander being glorified in the west. in fact, in many ways alexander has been accepted in the east as much as in the west: ``iskander`` (for alexander), for example, is a popular name for boys in pakistan. alexandria is of course a major city in egypt. and the simple point is that the west (and the more progressive parts of the world as well, like japan, china, and i believe a vast number of indian middle class as well) has moved beyond the ``military conquest`` stage of human development anyway.

if anything the popular heroes today among youth are sports figures. not politicians, not religious fanatics, not empire builders, and certainly not long dead empire builders.

your post also takes a balanced view the contributions of different societies. every society owes a major debt to societies that came before and much to learn from them. the mark of a progressive society is that it recognizes this fact. thus, centuries ago baghdad was a center of learning where greek scholars and indian scholars both came together and contributed to arab culture in medicine and mathematics - in today`s state of decay in that same part of the world, such appreciation of other cultures would be unheard of.

so the points you make are quite valid. dont wait for singh to acknowledge that though (he does not seem to be around to respond to questions raised about his article).

subroto #18 good one ;-) welcome back to chowk.

wajahat: you are entitled to your views (as you just did, and as singh just did). you are not entitled to make up facts however. and while you are entitled to your views, views that are not anchored on facts are nothing but hot air. your post therefore is hot air. the favorite past-time of the pakistani elite.

Well,

``These usual suspects however cannot stand such viewpoints. All they want to hear is the greatness of their adopted lands and acquired nationalities. Questioning that would be too much for their guilt ridden souls. They consider just one thing to be the epitome for everything that has gone wrong with the east, religious, political, cultural backwardness, which are undoubtedly major problems with questionable sources. Its a catch 22 for them. ``

The west have a very sad past, but doesn`t mean than the politician etc. from the east can do whatever they want because it`s not their fault after all. The article is well documented, but it`s not enough to be well documented for saying the truth and not a political radical and unfounded point of view.
The problem, in our case, is not the west and the east but a proper east problem, who think that west is purely rational and dont`t accept non rational things (like religion). It`s widely accepted in private lives, but not in a public secular debate, because there is no other bases there than faith. I don`t care if you believe in the pink invisible Unicorn, if you don`t force me to follow her dogma because you think that she exists.
And I don`t want to hear greatness of the west, because to say `it`s good it`s good` doesn`t make it good.

Well...

wajahat #21 i should also add that it is not ``loyalty`` to any land - the land of one`s birth or the land where one now lives - that is important. There is a higher loyalty - i.e. loyalty to the facts. Here is the list of factual errors and misrepresentations in the article:

1. ``In spite of warnings, the most comprehensive archives of Iraq`s history were set ablaze.`` I dont recall reading these warnings in the copious articles, discussions before the war. Indeed the major concerns related to environmental damage caused by saddam setting oil wells ablaze. It is easy to criticize with 20-20 hindsight. but pointless and unfair.

2. Professor Michalowski of Michigan said that this was ``a tragedy that has no parallel in world history; it is as if the Uffizi, the Louvre, or all the museums of Washington DC had been wiped out in one fell swoop``.

This professor M. i am sure said that, as did the other professors that singh quotes. But to compare the value of lost historical treasures is meaningless. and, while quoting some western professors is not equivalent to stating facts.

incidentally: i wonder what professor M. (or singh) had to say when the taliban deliberately destroyed the afghan buddhas. i wonder if you are prepared to condemn the countless muslim invaders to india who have defaced buddha statues and destroyed temples of worship. are you prepared to condemn mahmud ghazni for destroying somnath?

3. he writes: ``Others used phrases such as cultural genocide and compared the US in particular to the Mongol invaders of 13th-century Iraq. `` the mongols made a pillar of heads of the residents of baghdad and turned mosques into horse stables. to compare the US action in iraq with the mongol invasions indicates a total lack of concern for facts.

4. ``Martin Sullivan, Chairman of President’s Advisory Committee on Cultural Property and its member Gary Vikan resigned because the US military had had advance warning of the danger to Iraq’s historical treasures.`` See 1. above. If they had resigned BEFORE the invasion, that would be different. if the US military had advance warning that it ignored, then resigning would have made sense.

5. `` The great arch of Ctesphion, still the widest unsupported brick arch in the world, was cracked by the vibrations of the American carpet bombing.`` By no stretch of imagination can the US bombings be called carpet bombing. in fact, the opposite is true with the use of smart bombs and focussed targetting. if singh wants to see carpet bombing, he should see what the germans did to the brits in london, what the brits and the americans did to dresden, what the japanese did to nanking. This loose use of terms reduces the article to hot air.

6. `` For all his faults, Saddam Hussein was protective of archaeology, promoting it for a national rebirth and a repeat of the glories of the past, and comparing himself to Nebuchadnezzar (what about US presidents as Roman emperors ) who had built the Hanging Gardens of Babylon.`` singh is scraping the bottom of the barrel to find something good to say about saddam. saddam protected archaeology as part of his own strategy to stay in power. here again singh distorts facts by giving only a very partial glimpse of the truth - the whole truth being that saddam was protective of his OWN idols above all - having littered the iraqi countryside with himself dressed up in more different costumes than an indian film heroine changes in one movie.

I could go on, but will stop here. also note the points that michael m. makes which point to additional misrepresentations in this article.

as i said - loyalty should be to facts and to the truth. only then can one be loyal to one`s people (whoever those people are - the west, the east, or (as i believe one should be if one understands the message of the Quran) to ALL mankind). to cook up facts and to twist reality to suit one`s prejudices is not being loyal to anything or anyone other than to one`s own prejudices and insecurities.

# 23

Micheal M, This is obviously a gridlock that I would have with your otherwise balanced views. Public debate take place in societies that would feel that their words and efforts will have an effect on the general reality of their social condition. I can argue points with you or tahmed becos I am aware of the fact that I am being heard. In a country that is ruled on the basis of power and hegemony, being heard is the last thing on the minds of its people. Infact being heard is probably the precursor of a lot of strive and hassle in the police/army state that we have become. If you talk against the structure of govenrment the army will do you, if you talk about the negative forces of religion , you will be done under blasphemy laws. We are numbed by our circumstance as individuals and as a collective society. And yes it an eastern problem. But can I take your attention back to 1950-60s when progressive thought was crushed (Faiz, PWA) by a military dictator hell bent by American precedents to root out the evil of Socialism. Since then aparts from manufacured dissent nothing has emerged from Pakistan aparts from religious extremism.

Religious extremism is dissent cloaked and disguised in religion and is the repressed version of educated and open dissent. As a society a large part of our masses are not allowed free speech over government structure. Democracy is a feudal and Commercial entity and a person is democratically elected because they represent the highest amount of vested interest. Yes it is an eastern problem, i agree, but do not loose sight of the forces at work, the representation of foreign motives.

#26, 27 T ahmed

loyalty should be to facts and to the truth. only then can one be loyal to one`s people (whoever those people are - the west, the east, or (as i believe one should be if one understands the message of the Quran) to ALL mankind). to cook up facts and to twist reality to suit one`s prejudices is not being loyal to anything or anyone other than to one`s own prejudices and insecurities.

Mr Ahmed I agree with your points wholeheartedly. Although you generic statements are honest and unprejudiced, we mustn`t forget that this debate started about Iraq. Forgetting Mr Singh`s article for the moment, do u believe that Iraq today is better off than it was under saddam. Knowing your optimism for American rule you would agree it is. And I tell you what I agree with you. based on entirely different contentions than yours. Iraq is heading towards a vietnam type quagmire where america will be devising a escape strategy in less than 2 years to a maximum of 4 years. The toned down terrorist attacks of today would have turned out into an all out civil/freedom war against the occupiers. This would have severe effects on entire middle east, the effects in Saud`s arabia will be felt and will have deeper significance than any occupation on iraq would have.

And to think that this would have been avoided if America did not put Saddam in power after destabilising the first democracy in Arab world back in the 60s. Therein dear sir lies the story of our demise. We are decadent, powerless, voiceless and repressed in our countries because we are ruled by demagogues who imbibe the words of their Bosses. Why do u think religious extremism is taking root in a nation, its easier to dissent cloaked under the banner of God, the army will not neccessarily touch you. But these religious dissenters also find themselves in the company of men who have travelled back in time. We are between a rock and hard place.

You know what due to the nature of the debate, the west comes under a serious assault here at chowk(quite rightly so) , Would you then like to share your views about religious extremism and the chaotic roots of this intolerance in our society.

And I am not part of elite, infact I am anti-elitist at best.

I guess this is all hot air for you.

tahmed32

Hot air it is, and indeed, was. This article will single handedly skewer Mr Singh, Wajahat and all their claims of ``cultural genocide`` in respect of the looting and destruction of the cultural riches of Baghdad.

Somtimes hatred of America becomes so heated and overblown that people cannot help but make themseleves looks silly, anyway, read the article.

(It is taken from The Guardian too, the bible of the British left, and an aggresively anti-American newspaper)


{{So, there`s the picture: 100,000-plus priceless items looted either under the very noses of the Yanks, or by the Yanks themselves. And the only problem with it is that it`s nonsense. It isn`t true. It`s made up. It`s bollocks}}



http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,974193,00.html

Sure , We can trust Punjabi Zulu to read David Aaronvitch, the apologist for Israel and paint the entire world with a Leftist brush, in a single stroke as it is so conveinient to do. Hmmm maybe the entire world has the disease of Anti-Americanism and is wrong and only Punjabi Zulu(s) and Aaronvitch(s) know the truth.

God Bless America

wajahat

Read the article and accept what he says before yelping, then come back to me on the substantive points.

btw, sarcasm is not your strength, so dont embarass yourself by using it.

PanjabiZulu #29 Thanks for posting the article, which i read. you are right - that article, written by a newspaper that no one would confuse as being pro-american, shows clearly how far off base singh is in his (what else can one call it) in this hot air ballon of an article.

wajahat #28: i see you posed a question to me (about whether US internvention in Iraq has been good for iraqis), then provided the answer you anticipated from me (i.e. yes), and then agreed with it. that makes my work as chowk poster easy. i wish all chowk posters would do this. :-)

more seriously, you agree you say for different reasons than what i would have. i.e. you envision iraqis fighting against US occupation broadening into a general uprising in the middle east against kings and dictators in that region.

maybe so, although that would have to be a stretch, i think you would agree, from where things are today. however, tossing out dictators and kings by itself does not mean anything unless we know that a democratic constitution and the rule of law would then prevail in the middle east. and those are not built, unfortunately, overnight. indeed, the only revolution i can think of that resulted in a democracy was the American revolution (and excuse me if you are annoyed by my casting US in a favorable light again, but as you and i agree - facts are more important than prejudices). unless you count Indian independence as a revoltion - but that wasnt the armed insurrection you have in mind for the middle east and the major decisions were literally taken around a round table by men talking like civilized people to one another.

this is just another example of there being no short cuts in life. the best thing that could happen in iraq, imho, is for iraqi general elections to be held (rather than an armed inusrrection) as currently evisaged, and for the international community (the US alone or through UN) to provide the military force needed to protect the democratic constitution (against ambitous iraqi generals e.g.) until the democratic institutions take root over a period of a decade or so.

sounds strange? this is exactly what happened in Japan and Germany. But then, Germany had an Adenauer to provide the statesmanship needed to harness allied forces to the cause of German democracy, and so were the post-war Japanese leaders. Will iraq produce and Adenauer? I pray to God it does.

Pardesi:

``That’s very sad. I had never heard this. I wonder what reason GOI has for not returning the historic documents ``

Inertia. They had initially denied taking the stuff. Then they kept on denying it because that is what had been done earlier and no one wanted to rock the boat. Now no bureucrat wants the responsibility of handing it over till there is a political discussion. Politicians do not want to touch the issue because there is so much controversy and no one has clean hands. Congress and Captain Amrinder Singh are giving bamboo to Badal. If the stuff is handed back it will give ammo to Badal and Tohra to hit back.

Re #25 TAhmed ``subroto #18 good one ;-) ``
Thank u guruji at least someone got it.

And then one got to read this article -
``For all his faults, Saddam Hussein was protective of archaeology``
Arrgh! Much as I did not agree with the method of removal (collateral damage and all that), the one positive thing has been the removal of Saddam. Now I find that archaeologist are missing him! True as he cunningly placed humain remains in mass graves for others to dig up and find - all in the spirit of scientific discovery. Maybe then they should have taken him to US and left him in charge of the Smithsonian

#33 Tahmed

My pleasure to present your viewpoints in advanced, I feel its also due to the fact that we have had these conversation or tangents of these conversations in the multitude, which has enabled me with a foresight of your reply :)

Moving on, Imperial experiments as you repeat in Germany and Japan are a product of World Wars where both the countries subdued after a huge war effort by a Number of nations uniting against both germany and japan. Both countries gave the ``percieved`` west a huge fight before ending up in the clutches of the United Nations(which is now irrelevant to your president). Japan is a model of advancement in our world because of its technological advancements. Germany again is known for its technological advancements. Both countries demonstrating that once subdued in war , Capitalism can surge into the veins of the people and a few decades later the only difference between tokyo in Newyork would be the language.

I respect your views and your optimism for a better future, but the only thing that i do not agree with is the notion that western democracy & capitalism is the best alternative to all the problems in the world. I do not agree with you on that. You simplify things and nations and cultures on the basis that everything can become better if it adopts the western methodology, You ignore the power and importance of regional identities and how they are formed on the basis of collective prejudices. The Arabs today in the petrol rich shiekdoms if we ascribe to your views have the biggest chunk of western lifestyle and instutions available to them yet their behaviour is ugly and more backward than it was in the time of Huzoor PBUH. There is a very definitive problem mr ahmed when a prescribed form of democracy is imposed upon nations, it creates inequality and digressions. The repression gives birth to fundametalism, as men hate without question based on collective prejudices.

My only contention with your views is that if by Miracle in America a government comes in the next election that respects and uses it powers to nourish democracy from the roots , this world might become a different place. America has the power to change the fate of this world, yet its misusing its power to create plunders all over the world, arab, southeast asia, south america.

Today we have the leaders of the free world calling everyone in iraq who fights a terrorist, and I cannot accept any peripheral arguments by the Imperialist defenders and apologist that we need this to get to somewhere better. Better for whom, What happened in Afghanistan?

Intolerance, violence and war will only be answered by sabotage, gorrilla warfare and violence. You bomb a nation to bits and then expect it to lay down flowers whilst you enter as victors is a very old roman adage which is still ascribed by the Imperialist.

PZ come up something original for a change, thanks.

Subroto #36 yes indeed. Saddam the Archaeologist. Not only did he preserve existing archaeological treasures, he created new ones for scientists to discover a thousand years from now: the mass graves you mention. also his 32 palaces in baghdad, which no doubt will become the 8th wonder of the world. saddam idols will be prized possessions of any museum, just like greek statues are today. :-)

wajahat: you think there is a better alternative to democracy and capitalism, and i agree (my turn to surprise you, i guess).

you dont mention the better alternative, but this is what i have in mind: all political power and material resources of the world (or even of one trial country - i am amenable to a pilot project here) will be consolidated with me (tahmed, i.e.). as you are well aware of my enlightened views, i will no doubt do a great job of ensuring truth, peace and justice prevail. that resources are allocated nicely, starting with widows and orphans.

the above is my concept of a better alternative. ;-)

but more seriously, for all practical purposes ultimately SOMEONE (president, prime minister, caliph, martial law administrator, arab sheikh, king, dictator, mard-e-momin) has to have supreme executive authority in soceities. The question then is: How is this someone chosen? and the only alternative to one-man one-vote has been force of arms. even in iran the mullahs do not allow non-mullah candidates to elections, thus stifling choices. they can hide the fact that they have imposed themselves as rulers through force by claiming to be representatives of God, or by claiming to be nationalist heroes standing up to the west.

similarly, on capitalism: i am not calling for unbridled capitalism. what we need is a careful mix of regulatory framework (that serves as brakes on capitalist excesses that can harm the environment, stifle competition etc.) with private entrepreneurship (which has proved to be the dynamo that has transformed human societies by introduce countless innovations including the computers you and i are using.

the US model has sought to combine the two of course, and to date has proved itself to be more successful in terms of improving the lot of the ordinary citizen than all challengers (the most serious challenge being the communist challenge, which now lies in the same dustbin of history that the communists used to claim would be the fate of capitalism).

So: the question is not if capitalism or democracy are better than any alternative. time has proved they are. the question is, HOW can they be made to work? This is particularly significant for us pakistanis - next door we see how india has in a slow but steady manner built upon its commitment to democracy to start moving its 1 billion people forward. we in pakistan have been fooling around with islamic ideology and martial law adminsitrators who promise to fix everything - and as a result we are still at square one.

finally: as for the US having the power to fix the world - i think you overestimate (as many people in pakistan do) the power of the US. it is after all one country only with a population only about twice the size of pakistan and with vast commitments - advancing the frontiers of science, medicine, technology.

the biggest cost of 9/11 has in fact been the diversion of resources from medical research to that of fighting terrorism (whether using the correct strategy or not is besides the point). this is the real cost to all humanity that the islamist terrorists have caused. so let us stop treating the US as if it had godlike powers and unlimited resources, since it does not. lets just be glad we have more and more nations on earth (in europe, india and china) that are beginning to see the path forward for humanity is the one the US started on two hundred years ago. we muslims can either join the rest of humanity on this path, or we can wander around in the forest bad mouthing the US and other nations (including india and israel) that are already on this path.

wajahat

Man, I really am being to enjoy reading your posts they are funny.

tahmed ,

Tahmed zindabad, this obviously is the first battle cry for the tahmed pilot project, I hope you succeed :)

On a serious note, your optimism is based on the long term views that after the blood, the toil, the bodies somehow democracy will prevail and the gringos are infact right everytime. I lack that amount of optimism and base my views on historical examples which are plenty and continue to buildup, palestine, jihadis in pakistan after the Afghan war of the 80s etc. Injustices are strange and we do find ourselves amidst stark choices, Palestine for example is viewed in the US as an Arab problem, whereas me and my ilk, as I am increasingly referred to here at chowk, consider palestine to be a problem of zionist racism and the sordid American power structure. Thus, we find ourselves on two opposite sides. If miracles were true, now is the time to see one.


PZ, I am glad that atleast I am amusing you, you know I am always happy to entertain you. For future entertainment please keep reading :)

Many Thanks

And least I forget, God bless America, Ahmed Chalabi and Sharon. Not that they need it as presumably as Mr Bush declares God is on their side by defaults...Defaults are funny things.

wajahat #65 i afraid sir but i dont see much logic in your post. if there is something specific i wrote that you wish to question, i will be glad to discuss that further. but just reciting slogans doesnt solve anything nor does it constitute a discussion. anyway, cheers till we perhaps meet again on some other board.

wajahat

I am laughing at you, not with you, like when you try and crack jokes about defaults and stuff like that and blurt out slogans like a parakeet on heat. Read tahmed32`s last post, you just dont make sense and there seems to be a discrepancy between the images you form in your head and what you put into words.

For those who are interested:

www.blairfacedlies.org

Tahmed32 said:

``So: the question is not if capitalism or democracy are better than any alternative. time has proved they are. the question is, HOW can they be made to work?``

I don`t agree (first point).
Let`s begin by an explanation of the two terms(second point):
`Democracy` means, more or less, the power (cracy) to the people (demo). So were is the problem in that? The problem is how the people is represented, and if it is well or not.
The institutions receive the majority of the critics, not the idea that the power is for everyone, maybe for more equality.
What is capitalism? An economic system based on private ownership of the means of production, in which personal profit can be acquired through investment of capital and employment of labor (thank you yahoo, I was lazy to check somewhere else).
The main problem here, are, like Marx said (can say whatever you want about him, he did a great work pointing out what are the errors and dangers of the XIXth century capitalism), that the profit is not, at least morally, acceptable (ah Das Capital!).

So (third point), if I`m agree with the idea that democracy is the best option right now, because there`s no known better (like Winston Churchill said) if you want to live with a community, like the entire society of a country, I`m not at all agree with capitalism.
I will not use the arguments of the communists, but the idea is that all this economic development doesn`t have any reason to think of the best, socially speaking, for the people. If you want to make it work, you have to reduce his power. So that`s where the syndicats, the non governemental associations and organisms have to act.

Time (last point) didn`t prove anything. The result of communism (because it`s the first in the list of the losers) is only known as the result of a proletarian dictature, a thing that is not the goal. You can reduce in the same way capitalism with the imperialism of the west, and you have the same failure: the rulers won and the colonised countries have to survive with an horrible economy and political situation. I don`t call it the best choice.
So, there is other alternatives of course, but it doesn`t mean a complete opposite thing.
Capitalism made us consumers, owners, workers, but where is the `better` in that?
A religious speaker, for example, will say that to be `believers` is better and at least you don`t worship `work`, `property` or worst, `money`.
Money is a tool but also a physical representation of your power over the others. Where is the equality in that?

``but more seriously, for all practical purposes ultimately SOMEONE (president, prime minister, caliph, martial law administrator, arab sheikh, king, dictator, mard-e-momin) has to have supreme executive authority in soceities``
No. In a small state (of the size of a city for example), you don`t need this SOMEONE. The leader, the hero, the representation of the father (I go too far) is not even an universal and only solution: look at the French revolution for example. The problem is the stability of these other solutions (more than one head).
Just one last thing: even if there`s no example in the past, it doesn`t mean that a new system can`t work. America has his own history, and it`s a mistake to take it for an example. Why not be inspired by its great values, like the great values in Islam, and build a new kind of society?

Thanks

#44 MichealM

Well said and Just to substantiate your views, the complicity of Democracy with Captilism invokes the kind of negative government system we see in the so called democratic states. The basic degeneracy is in the fact that democracy does not represent the people as such, but the pressure groups that back it into power, America for example has a government structure which is based upon who raises the most amount of campaign money from vested groups and thus its no wonder that Dubya today mainly represents and serves the interests of the Oil, Weapons Industries who have funded his accession. These pressure groups have global interests that only power and supreme power, at that can carry out. Thus the terrible mess in the middle east show the awesome power of Representative Democracy.

In Pakistan on a smaller scale, We have the feudals who hold the main voting banks who use democracy to violate and bring in civilain govts who basically represent their domain and their interests. e.g benazir for sindh and Sharif for Punjab. This is the problem with Western Notion of democracy based on capitalism. But if you take the capitalist structure out of democracy than it fails as a concept, athough I do not know enough about socialism to speculate(although I have been called a commie here at chowk)

The islamic alternative would be a sort of capitalism that does not make anyone rich, thus the idea of a No Interest based Financial System. But then the kind of consumerist society we have become, this will become almost impossible. I mean from 10-15 years ago our society has become more greedy, financialy unstable and decadent(I mean waste rather than religion). The need and use of credit is ever increasing and we will in the next decade or so turn from a Cash based society into a western type interest based society.

Thus the point I keep raising (Yelping as PZ refers to it :)) that we have to be mindful of the dogmas of our own society and understand that Western Democracy is not the only answer no matter how viable it may seem. That is my only conclusion no matter how illogical it may seem

Regards

Wajahat

michaelm #44 let me start with your conclusion: ``America has his own history, and it`s a mistake to take it for an example. Why not be inspired by its great values, like the great values in Islam, and build a new kind of society? ``

i think rather than talking about american values or islamic values, we need to talk about universal values which no one except a complete sociopath would deny: equality, liberty, fraternity (to use words from the french revolution you mention). these also happen to coincide with american values and islamic values (as apparent in the Quran and in the best examples of muslim history as in muslim era spain and 12th century baghdad for example, not as promoted by religious parties today whose idea of islamic values is the opposite of that found in the Quran). so actually, it is not too hard i think for everyone to agree on a universal set of values, whether these are in the preamble to the US or most other written constitutions, or dug up from some religious books.

the question that you pose therefore is: what is the best way to ensure these values are promoted in society, and not curbed.

for this purpose, what you are suggesting is basically to start from scratch, forgetting about democratic institutions and capitalistic forms of economy. i dont believe that is realistic. Rome wasnt built in a day. systems evolve, they dont emerge overnight. communes of the kind you mention have been tried in many places (including the US), and they have never caught on, and many ex-hippies now wear black suits and drive SUVs to work. so, unless you know a good alternative, you are best quitting while you are ahead when quoting Churchill on democracy being the worst form of governemnt except for all the alternatives.

incidentally, the french revolution that you mention did not result in living up to the ideals of liberte, equalite, fraternite either. the revolutionary leaders like robespierre ended up guillotining one another as soon as they were through guillotining the bourbons, and as soon as they were gone the french did not get a committee something to rule but the Emperor Napoleon, the biggest dictator of all. so, like i said, revolutions cause a lot of bloodshed and generally put society a few steps behind: the russian revolution, led by visionaries like lenin, led not to freedom but to the dictator Stalin who killed people in the millions. The chinese revolution, led by the visionary mao-tse-tung, soon degenerated and today the biggest visionaries in china are the ones who stood at tienanmen square with - surprise - a replica of the Statue of Liberty to inspire them. and the chinese government that suppressed them has thrown completely overboard the basic notions of marxism and adopted the US economic model instead. and if marx is to be believed (this is probably the only thing he said that made sense outside the narrow context of late 19th century europe), poltiical institutions in china will follow the economic structure. in other words, the chinese revolution, after meandering around, will finally end up on the same path the US has been on for two hundred years.

#34 by stuka on December 2, 2003 7:06am PT
Thanks for the info. Regards.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts