The Culture of Research and Learning

#134 by Tmk on June 8, 2004 7:43am PT

That was hilarious- and the response was apt! Thanks!


P.S- I still fail to understand how many times these mullahs have to use the word `true` before every adjective in order to announce conspiracy behind every thing not pleasing to them!!!
Can they tell us who is a `true` idiot?

What beauty?

Sir: The much hyped and publicised Ms Universe contest, which was held in Puerto Rico last week, turned out to be a complete fiasco. Right from the beginning it lacked what it needed in order to be a classy show. The host left a lot to be desired. The judges also appeared to lack the expertise they needed for the occasion.

Above all the formatting of the show was pathetic. And to top it all, the crowned Miss Universe hardly deserved the title. It seems that the only consideration for judging the contents was the US-led war in Iraq and since Australia is a great supporter of the US, they were rewarded. Or perhaps what it really boiled down to was that the judges just didn’t know the meaning of ‘beauty’
DR SHAUKAT MAHMOOD
Lahore

And Reply:

Conspiracy theory and Ms Universe

Sir: This is with reference to Dr Shaukat Mahmood’s letter, “What beauty?” (Letters, Daily Times, June 7). While I understand the animosity that US policies elicit within Pakistan, I cannot fathom why Dr Mahmood blames the US government for rigging the Miss Universe contest just because the contestant Dr Mahmood was rooting for did not win.

Personally, I cannot imagine Rummy sitting in his Pentagon office coming up with strategies for rigging a beauty contest. I am sure the secretary of defense has more important issues on his mind. And for what it’s worth, I thought Miss Australia was quite good looking.
TAIMUR M KHAN
Philadelphia

This may be of interest to those inclined towards research and education.

http://www.vttp.org/PDMain.aspx

VTTP National Policy Dialogue Series

on

Science, Technology & Research Policy, Basic/Primary & Higher Education Reform



The National Policy Dialogue Series is designed as an exercise in participative national policymaking and aimed at inviting societal participation in idea generation, dialogue, and implementation of bold, creative, and pragmatic solutions to Pakistan’s most contentious problems. The first step of this series of interlinked initiatives is a Policy Papers Contest —subsequent activities might include a media dialogue, a national conference of idea champions, and corporate sponsored implementation pilots. Seeking to create a national repository of creative policy proposals and ideas, 5-10 page essays/papers (concise, substantive, and specific) are sought from individuals belonging to the entire cross section of Pakistani society i.e. ALL PROFESSIONALS/STUDENTS dealing with the following suggested topics:

Higher Education Reform in Pakistan: What Went Wrong, How to Fix it?
Practical & Innovative Approaches to promoting a Performance Culture in Higher Education.
What should be the Science and Technology Policy Priorities/Actions for Pakistan?
What Topical Areas of Research, Science & Technology should Pakistan Stress Upon and why?
Practical & Creative ways of marketing Pakistan (the brand) and its Research/Technology abroad?
Practical Models for Delivering Universal Basic & Primary Education in Pakistan.
Practical & Innovative Approaches to Reforming Basic/Primary Education in Pakistan.

---

http://www.vttp.org/PDMain.aspx
for details

Zahraj,
Thanks a lot for your candid thoughts. Well there are always wages for going uphill. Regarding posting on Chowk, I dont think it would be of much utility. I did post a socio economic issue on unplugged, but it drew no positive response. Thats how it is.

Most of the chowkies are heavy on opinion and thats where it ends.
Good Summers
Cheerios
Ijaz

Ijaz: I wish you all the best in your initiative and I am positive that you will keep it up and running with your good spirit. Out of curiosity, why did it take you that long to post the details on this site ? If you could write a deewan on mountaineering and go backkkkk in time to highlight Patricia, why could not you put together a few paras highlighting the ``present`` and have Chowk publish it ? All the above should serve as food for thought only. Do you have a website for this initiative? If yes, could you post it here? You may very well have the information on this site somewhere in hiding and it may have escaped my attention. In that case, please disregard the healthy food for thought. Thanks.

[Though I have impressed my views at very high forums, at the end of the day one ends up like a teacher trying to educate people with pre concieved ideas and inflexible attitudes.Even the essentials of the political and organisational theories are not grasped. I agree that one ends up denying space to oneself.]

Just to clarify: I never mentioned ``denying space.`` I suspect that you misread my drift or probably I did not grab the context of your last phrase. If you are implying that it takes a lot of time and energy out of you then welcome to the real world. To do any job up to a certain level of satisfaction, you have to be prepared to immerse yourself in the said task. That`s a given! Having worked on several cute little, bird`s size, small, medium and grand initiatives in the past, I had to be generous with my ``time ane energies``. But at one stage in life, you do want to associate with only those whose actions, words, thoughts and initiaves add to your knowledge and well being. And, that`s where I was going with my shrewd, selfish and demanding motives :)

Ijaz: An observation from personal experience...you can only introduce and promote your initiative or perspective. You cannot impose your way of seeing things on others. Way back when I was raising a generous amount for a student, I had to be focused and insensitive to the noise around me but learn to be sensitive to others` leanings. Lessons Learned: focus, belief in the gut feeling, having the end result right in front of you, keeping a decent distance from negative forces and chauvinists. Interestingly, the whole process started with just an innocent query. There was no research or analysis involved, mainly due to the deadline. Despite the bouncy journey, I was very content with the end result. It was way beyond my own expectations. The last lesson learned was being prepared to handle miracles :)

#127 by sadna on June 5, 2004 8:34pm PT

Thanks for posting that wonderful article. I think what she captured in her five months stay had escaped Pak scholars in the last thirty years.
I have much more specific information as to what happened during the zia regime and before, as I was not only a witness but an active opponent of the academic murders that were taking place in Pak at that time.
I hope to write about that someday. I feel that those years have put Pakistan seriously back almost fifty years. The problem is that things have not changed a whole lot and the lowering of intellectual standards continue.

Zahraj,
I do not wish to detain you any longer. But I do want to leave you with some thoughts over your summer vacations; something you can brood over. Even if we cant implement all, at least we would have learnt something and made some begining somewhere.

For the past ten years, I have carried out studies in detail on issues like instability of political institutions, the elites in Pakistan`s politic body, military sociology, international political economy, tax reforms, local self government, reflections on the huge foreign debts that Pakistan accumulated in the 80/90s and last but not least, the vibrant unregulated and informal sectors. Though I have impressed my views at very high forums, at the end of the day one ends up like a teacher trying to educate people with pre concieved ideas and inflexible attitudes.Even the essentials of the political and organisational theories are not grasped. I agree that one ends up denying space to oneself.

So I decided to light my own candle. I managed to introduce quality education in some schools. Now at a nominal cost, many boys and girls are doing O and A level education from the University of Cambridge. Majority are from the low middle class who could never dream of going to elite schools like Frobels/Beacon/City. We have been successful in persuading many God Fearing rich to sponsor a child each. My friends gather sponsors after the friday prayers. The response is excellent. Some of our students have already proceeded abroad for higher studies based on good results and SAT scores.

From within the finances of the school, we evolved the concept of a college. Making a beginning with 28 students, we already have over 700 students in areas like business, human resource, computers, telecom and electronics. The levels are from undergrad to post grad.

Why we made such strides is that we have avoided the lime light. There are no high profile visitors, no VIPs and we go about our work unseen with no perks. We get no grants, foreign aid or funding. Efcourse we appeal to the God fearing and get loans from the Banks that we are repaying ahead of schedule.

We are now replicating this model in health and community services.

It is this model we wish to move forward that leads to communitarianism, inclusiveness and pluralism within a social group. We want to build culverts/bridges to overcome social, sectarian, ethnic and divisive faultlines for a better Pakistan. But someday this model has to link with the strong business groups, political organisations and the state. It is for this reason that we see indepth research, sampling and study into the Civil Society. We have to develope our own model based on our own dynamics of p[ermanance and ideosyncrynism, which efcourse has also become the mainstay of our research in HRD courses.

Thanks for giving time. I have always found your views as rational, in depth and useful.

Enjoy the summers
Cheerios!!

http://www.dawn.com/weekly/books/books1.htm

``...As a college teacher of political science I was interested more in learning about the state of higher education and research particularly in social sciences and the intellectual activity in general in Pakistan. I read a number of articles on these issues during my five months stay in Pakistan, which gave vent to two major grievances in higher education. The first was about the dismal state of research in Pakistan. The dimension and quality of research appeared to be the major cause of concern of the writers of these articles.

Very often the writers indulged in comparison with India. Pakistanis generally believe that the system of higher education and quality of research in India is superior. There is an appreciation of the fact that thousands of Indians earn doctoral degrees in different disciplines of study annually. Sometimes the authors of articles asked why Pakistan did not start institutions like IIT (Indian Institute of Technology) and IIM (Indian Institute of Management). Many of the senior university teachers in Pakistan have their doctoral degrees from foreign, mostly American and British, universities.

Things are changing now and many of the younger teachers have doctoral degrees from Pakistani universities. Musharraf`s regime has undertaken major programmes with a view to removing this lacuna. While I was in Pakistan I had read the news report stating that the government of Pakistan had planned to send a hundred teachers and researchers from Pakistan to universities abroad for research at the cost of more than Rs800 million.

It had also decided to disburse grants of over Rs600 million to the QAU to encourage research leading to the doctoral degree. Science teachers with PhDs were to become eligible for extra allowances. I read about the Punjab University at Lahore deciding to get 100 theses evaluated from foreign universities. The other scheme announced by this university would make Indian researchers and research guides envious of their counterparts in Punjab University. Every candidate obtaining a PhD from the university would get an award of Rs50,000 and his guide Rs100,000. On reading this, how much I wished that I got at least two candidates from Punjab University working with me for PhD before returning to India!

The second grievance was about the state of social sciences and the treatment meted out to social scientists in Pakistan. Most Pakistani universities neglect the social sciences. Though this is a part of the global trend, Pakistan`s social and political systems are responsible for this maltreatment of social sciences. There are certain conditions for the development of knowledge in any society; the intellectual and ideological ethos of the society, the extant value system, the class divisions and the pattern of power distribution.

In the process of Islamization of Pakistan even social sciences have been Islamized. `Islam pasand` groups have cultivated traditional and puritanical values in society and have discouraged and rejected scientific rationalism. Social sciences and humanities deal with ideas. They have a potential to encourage individual thinking, to formulate and express opinions irrespective of the prevalent opinion in society. They encourage people to defy authority, if necessary, be it political or religious and lay the foundations of open society.

Any political regime founded on exclusive ideology tends to suppress the expression of independent opinion, and critical assessment of ideas. Moreover long praetorian interventions are not conducive for free promotion and expression of ideas, which is the basic function of social sciences and humanities. Therefore social sciences in Pakistan have been forced to rediscover their `relevance through Islam`.

Pakistani intellectuals are aware of the `dismal state of social sciences` in their country. I recall reading a newspaper article by a Pakistani writer, a few years ago, which said Pakistan had become an `intellectual wasteland`. Akbar Zaidi`s analytical article on the subject of the ``State of Social Sciences in Pakistan``, published in the Economic and Political Weekly, comprehensively deals with all issues regarding the subject from the number of `active` social scientists, publications, institutions of research, to finances and accountability.

Zaidi`s lament is that no Pakistani social scientist in the last three decades, `has developed, reconstructed, reformulated, expanded upon, disputed or rejected, any theory or theoretical formulation, qua theory, in the specific context of Pakistan`. This is corroborated by Inayatullah who wrote that most socio-scientific literature in Pakistan was not oriented to the growth of knowledge and that generally it lacked theoretical orientation and theoretical research in a volume titled The State of Social Sciences in Pakistan.

This is because social sciences as academic disciplines have declined in universities. In the QAU, which was developed as the centre for excellence, there are no departments of philosophy, political science or sociology. Going through the academic publications in Pakistan, I discovered that many of them were in the nature of empirical studies (data collection), documentation or applied research produced by those working in various professional research institutions and NGOs, heavily funded by foreign donors who lay down their preferences and priorities in the area of research.

I was amused reading a small news item in Dawn on August 21, 2001 that said that the NWFP government had decided to banish social sciences and humanities from college curricula. Disciplines of political science, philosophy, history and literature were deemed to be worthless and, hence, could not be funded by the government that faced a severe resource crunch. The government had further decided not to fill the posts vacated on retirement of the teachers of the said disciplines. I have no idea if this policy was finally implemented.

Pakistani intellectuals are fighting pitched battles against Islamists. In the summer of 2003 it was reported that the teachers of the English department of the oldest and the most prestigious university in Pakistan, the Punjab University in Lahore, discovered that a junior member of the department, Shahbaz Arif, was recruited by the university administration apparently to `purge` the syllabus of `vulgar, obscene, and morally corrupt` elements.

An internal memo circulated by Arif, who is said to hold a PhD in linguistics from Essex University in Britain, pointed his finger to Alexander Pope`s The Rape of the Lock, for the vulgarity of the title of the book and Jonathan Swift`s Gulliver Travels for its description of a `monstrous breast`. Ernest Hemingway`s The Sun Also Rises was nothing but anathema, for all characters in Hemingway`s work were sexually astray: men homosexuals; women lesbians or promiscuous and Brett Ashley nymphomaniac. Sean O` Casey`s play The End of the Beginning was targeted for the sentence, `When the song ended, Darry cocks his ear and listens.`

As the controversy intensified, university authorities hurriedly issued clarifications and denials. But even the department held on firmly to its ground. The department`s chair Shaista Sirajuddin is known to be outspoken, progressive and secular and has kept Islamists at bay. And there are others like her. If Pakistan has become an `intellectual wasteland` it is not for want of intellectuals, but for the intellectual culture that has been deliberately and systematically decimated by certain social, political and religious forces discussed in this book.

This is not to absolve the intellectual class of its responsibility but to stress the challenges encountered by it. Some among them have accepted the challenge and taken these forces by the horns as has been indicated by the proliferation of dissent literature in Pakistan during the Zia rule. Some like Mehdi Hasan, former professor of journalism at Punjab University, have faced serious accusations, while others call the truce with those forces and seek refuge in self censorship professed in the name of national interest and Islam.

Maneesha Tikekar is a reader in politics in SIES College of Arts, Science and Commerce, Mumbai.

This book is an Indian university teacher`s account of her five-month stay in Pakistan. It captures her perception of our society and culture.

---

Excerpted with permission from Across the Wagah: An Indian`s Sojourn in Pakistan

By Maneesha Tikekar

Promilla & Co Publishers in association with Bibliophile South Asia,

C-127 Sarvodaya Enclave, New Delhi-110 017, India

Website: www.biblioasia.com

ISBN 81-85002-34-7

360pp. Indian Rs750

Dear Ijaz: Thank you for your explanation. I am sure with your mountaineering background, you have a lot to keep you occupied with. Hope you have a relaxing time!

Your second last post had an ending with the desire to continue the exchange about improvements. Having spearheaded various process improvement initiatives, I would tell you from experience that if your surroundings are not prepared (open and ready) for any change, the results may not very satisfactory. Well, you may gain experience and insights but that`s it. And, the follow-up steps on change management that many consider only as buzz-words have much more significance, an average person can comprehend.

Before you even go near implementing anything for your institution, you must spend fair amount of time in research; and evaluate what`s pertinent to your surroundings. Lastly, do not let go of what is important to you. That`s where I have been extremely impressed by some professional organizations based out of US. Recently, on sharing some points of mutual interest with a leadership organization who wants me to run with a project, I was completely taken aback by the time they had spent in research just to get to know the need and areas they wanted to target for `` leadership ``. In order to do that, you certainly require contributors who can add signifcantly based on their own experience and what they have to offer. You have to take this as a Life Cycle Project. And, this is what I love about my surroundings (it`s not only the mountains, prairies, clean water and running tracks aside not to mention the diversity and civil beings). Despite the other committments, men and women from all cultural backgrounds have the desire to be more enlightened. It`s not just a decent six figure pay check that will add to their life and everything is hunky dory!

In my case, I am at a point in life where I like to maintain significant distance from those who want to extract my energies. My mantra is that I would contribute provided you tell me how you can contribute to my life. If you have nothing or if I find that way too obsolete then please stay away from me and I`ll do the same. I like to maintain the same approach on Chowk and in my personal life. Sometimes, I do slip and end up wasting my breath on interactors, I would not even like to associate with regardless of their origin and color. I guess that`s part of being human. Had I been perfect, I would have been sitting with the monks that Robin Sharma(one of my favorite writers) highlights in his insightful book, ``The Monk who sold his Ferrari`` or adopted the lifestyle Kabir touches upon in `` Mun Lago... Yaar ... Faqeeri Main...``

I do not have anything else to add therefore I would like to say goodbye for the summer(I am just borrowing this expression from an old song. It has no other relevance. :))

Take Care and Best Regards.

murtaza:
this is just to acknowledge and register my ``discovery`` of your debut on CHOWK. I wonder if you are aware of this being posted here.

This ``submission`` didn`t come up during our discussion a few weeks ago (confidential, confidential!--guranteed!) Maybe it was sent long time ago and was ``archived``.

Congratulations. It is a ``practical`` piece and I just can`t appreciate it enough. More of such musings and ``wondering-alouds`` are needed rather than the usual intellectualitis and kalloo-orangutanism spammed here.

zahra u just showed u cant -- :)

#121
Moi is a French word meaning myself. It is used on the board by malyck as his trade mark. Now even Omar has used this term. I wrote in french,
``please excuse me. What rational are you talking about.
when you use malycks expressions``.
As for you(Zahraj), I appreciated what you said.
I hope that satisfies you.
Pray and hope you enjoy your summers. I am knee deep in work here and wonder if i will find time to visit some mountain resort.
Nowadays, I am trying to develope models for reviving the civil society in Pakistan. The US model does not apply here. Do contribute if you can.
Cheerios
Ijaz

flyhighkites #120
My #55 might have been addressed to you among others, but not only to you. In any case after that I thought I explained myself to you on unplugged. Get a grip! In any case, it should not matter what I or anyone else says as long as you yourself believe in what you are saying.

108: Ijaz:Could you please spell out your previous post ? I do not want to say goodbye for the summer to this board without knowing that. Thanks.

#119: OK, the low-down.
I gave a brief thought to the possibility that perhaps I mistook the references by Zahra and you as directed at me, whereas they may be directed at someone else.
So in all fairness, I have re-read posts #44, 55, 58, 65, 66, 79.... My assumption is that #55 was addressed to me - i wonder who else ``preached piously`` without ``writing about the topic.`` There certainly were many PK retaliations, but am I wrong that only I ``delivered the sermon`` and therefore post#55 couldn`t be addressing anyone but me?

At any rate, 58 was directed as it made a pun on post # 44`s first line. #65 cleared the misunderstanding b/w you and Zahra... whereas #66 and 79 are an exchange of notes about bulls caught with their horns... bulls who can`t read very well. etc. I, being a fiesty little woman and pretty normal human myself, could not help but respond. Please note that I have offered truce from the start, and I even thanked you for pointing out in post #55 that I only preached piously, and did not write abt the topic.

||||||||||||||||||||||||||
This is the situation. Still, if by any distant chance it wasn`t *I* you talked about in post#55, then pray do make it clear who were you addressing? An unconditional apology if I have been entirely mistaken. ANd BTW, I am not a fan of resolving PAK-INDIA issues on Chowk, so I have no issues with continuing a dialog with anyone. I only differ on personal basis.

At this point, I am ready to side with anyone who`ll think I am being ridiculous by dragging this on. Hmmmmm... I have broken my promise, but Sadna I`d have put this in UP but I know you don`t go there... besides that`d invite spectators over. What nonsensical circus would that be. Anyhow.... my last post on this particular skirmish. Pakka wada! Good night!

flyhighkites #114
You might like to notice, there are plenty of other people posting here, you are not the only one.

I don`t know about Zahra, I was talking of other posters. One poster said that I was talking of two nation theory, another told me to stop quoting from Asia times. I went back and looked at my posts again and again, I have no clue how these posters could say what they did. So I said one sentence in reply to that. For that now you are accusing me of saying bad things about you. That is totally your wish! I live and learn every day.

117: Omar: Can you apply your ``mentally disturbed`` sermons on your own self or you need to see a mirror every now and then? Whatever! I am sure you can provide enough amusement to equally disturbed, sorry I am not interested in your ``intellectually stimulating`` discourses. Thanks.

zahraJ -- again -- what in god`s name are you talking about -- wait ??? for what???
harish ji -- i was told that by one of the editors here when i asked them about the policy -- no one is whining harish ji -- learn to chill a bit shri harish ji --

A National Policy Dialogues Series is being launched by Virtual Think Tank Pakistan (VTTP) and Pakistan Research Support Network (PRSN) on Science and Technology, Research, Higher and Basic/Primary Education Reforms. Substantial Prize money is at stake for original, creative and pragmatic ideas on several sub-topics and sub-sub-topics. The website for the competition is http://npds.vttp.org. I would urge all to participate, support, and promote the event.

-Athar Osama
Doctoral Fellow in Policy Studies
Member, Managing Committee of National Policy Dialogues Series

zahra can u try having an argument without getting personal?

#113: I do not wish to stay into this any longer. I am tempted to go back and copy/paste the entire relevant thread.... but then I know ramifications, explanations, accusations will follow... and this will become another classic Chowk mess. The interested can do their own backing-up and follow the thread...

Whatever, *shrug* I don`t really care any longer. I am fine with being a bull or a kite or a piety-filled hypocrite. I don`t mind this, and I don`t mind you. Qissa khatam.

~~~~~
I hope that I can return to continue discussing the rsrch thing itself.... Dagny, I thought we were onto something? No further thoughts?

Ms flyhighkites #97 #110
My comment to Zahra was not directed at you.

Omar: I AM very opinionated. Thank you for realizing that others have ``opinions`` too. And, they would dump your nonsense. Now to pacify your ego, you need www.dawn.com to have its own discussion forum since this ain`t dawn.com. I hope you do not lose your mind during the endless wait. Happy Waiting!

Now this is ridiculous. No one on Chowk except you has advocated that so-and-so post be refused/deleted. Like a crybaby, you whine about some perceived slight and then take the editors to task for letting it through. Why don`t you just chill out man? If you look at all the other posters and yourself, you will realize what a moron you are making of yourself. And yes, this word `moron`, I have heard it more from you than anyone else in recent times.

Excusez moi s`l vous plait. qu`il rationale. de ne pas utilisez les expression de malyck.
Zahraj, C`est bon!!
A Bientot!!!

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

#106: If I post HERE, then I am a low-flying bull with my horns in the mud, missing ironies, and in need of complete help. If I display courtesy enough to respect you and Sadna despite the persistent attitude from you (but not from Sadna) - and also respect for Murtaza`s space - and move the discussion to Unplugged, this is rubbish. What am I now? A low-flying bull-with-horns-stuck-in-the-mud in a catch22 situation?

(Nevertheless, it was a great lung exercise as I thoughtof my new description last night while doing my daily think-of-something-funny-that-happened-today. LOL)

And now, let me tell you something Zahra: I am not a man in white suit drivelling at the feet of Paki Princesses. In other words, do not assume you can tell me off and I will oblige. I am an empowered woman with opinions myself, and perfectly able to cut anyone down to ribbons. Though this is a tone that I did not wish to use, you have been asking for it repeatedly. If not courted again, I will not return to this. Perhaps the next time, if there are no aimless hysterical fits (what got you going in the first place anyway? what was that romantic exchange about stupid bulls all abt?), I can have breathing space enough to detail my POV which largely aligns with your own.

zahraJ -- what in god`s name are you talking about -- is it only me or does she have an overly high opinion of herself ? who told u to side with a moron? u think people here really care who you side with or don`t --

and this is for you nazar sahib and the ijaz guls type of people here -- please check out the board on faiza hussain`s article -- she has written a nice piece on people who throw out their trash in pakistan -- also then see post # 5 by jay -- this guy has to bring in all kinds of non-related stuff -- please see it and then you will understand why some interactors (moi!) are fed up when others bring in completely irrelevant material in their postings --

- Why cannot Chowk function based on ideas only ?
- Why do I have to side with a Pakistani who I may consider a complete moron?
- Why do I have to portray the silly picture of ``united we stand and divided we fall`` at wrong occasions?
- Why do I have to be routed to another section of Chowk in order to discuss a point? What rubbish!
- Why do I have to acknowldege this little boys` club thing vs. interacting with adults who stand behind their thoughts?

This is simply unhealthy!

By playing the above unhealthy games, we(as individuals) curtail the process of learning and growth. Well, if we only analyze one side of the picture then the chances of refining that picture are quite slim. We may miss a few spots where some feedback could do miracles.

Now, I may find it painful to absorb Romair`s elaborate critique on my painting (for argument sake). I may like Sadna`s suggestion for the touch-ups and may also consider Einstein`s recommendations. Lastly, before I submit the final results, I may add a poetical footnote from Qibla Naqshbandi or a childish remark from Omar`s hilarious contributions. Whatever route I take, I`d make the final call. If someone advises me to consider one critic over the other for some absurd reason, i.e. based on their gender or race or culture. I would completely ignore and disregard that person. Now, this ain`t aloofness or rudeness or stiffness. It`s real important to have the eye to distinguish. In simple words, it`s an individual`s ``CHOICE`` to appreciate what appeals to them and disregard what doesn`t. With due respect, the rest of the world and their views and opinions mean nothing after the final decision is made. So, could we please move on? Thank You.

#102 by Romair on June 2, 2004 7:23pm PT

[Perhaps this is something you need to analyze about yourself and your generation. And only then should you start blaming the mullah..........]

Perhaps Captain Clueless did not notice my last post (#96), but let me remind him again.

When Abdus Salam, the Muslim world’s first and Pakistan’s only Nobel prize winner, wanted to establish a research institute in Pakistan, Gen. Zia-ul-Haq, fearing the wrath of the Mullahs, refused permission. Disillusioned, the man had to start a research center at Trieste in Italy. Here is a real world example of how the Mullahs scuttled a man’s burning ambition to contribute his bit towards building a modern Pakistan.

#102 by Romair on June 2, 2004 7:23pm PT

[And from what I have heard, the major group of technolgists that are willing to stay in Pakistan to run its nuclear reactors are from the mullah group.]
[Pakistan`s mullahs, while they have other problems, are R&D friendly.]
[But not in R&D, since they themselves participate in it.]

Is that why one scientist claimed that heaven was receding from the Earth at a rate of 1 cm less than the speed of light per second based on the Quran? And is that why another thought he could solve Pakistan’s power crisis by extracting energy from genies because the Quran said they were made of fire?


[And, since they have never run Pakistan, they cannot be given the main blame for ruining Pakistan, either.]

Sure. President Musharraf was thinking of appointing a committee to examine the Hudood ordinances and Blasphemy laws (not because of any noble intentions but under pressure from Uncle Sam), but had to backtrack because of the vehement opposition from the Mullahs. And what would have been a very progressive measure that promised a vast improvement in the condition of women fizzled out because of the utter selfishness of the Mullahs in keeping a medieval law alive.


[Qazi Hussein, may want to end co-education and introduce Shariah, but his son(s) went to the USA to study technolgy.]

Exactly how is that a virtue? If anything, it is hypocrisy of the worst kind, trying to deny modern education for the teeming masses of Pakistan while sending his sons to the most modern educational institutions in the west.

ijaz gul where in teh world did you get the impression that i was trying to be patriotic -- i think its a pretty loaded and dirty word for me so lets not go there -- as expected i didnt really think u would get the gist of my argument -- and also dont get your rather tenuous link where you say my so-called demonstration of `patriotism` on this board `speaks volumes for my media skills` -- could you please elaborate and please tell me what my media skills, or lack thereof, are? have you worked with me or with anyone who has worked with me? have we ever met? have you written even a minute proportion of the stuff that i have written in the past 10 years of being a journalist? stop passing judgments ijaz sahib about my professional skills or lack thereof, you only betray your own simplistic thinking when you do that -- because i dont do the same with you or others, and i expect the same in return

nazar sahib -- thanks for your comments -- by the way i was a teenager last some 14 years ago -- as for me getting angry i think that is everyone`s right really as long as they dont burn other people with it -- interacting here is, for me, interacting in a world which is literally virtual -- its interesting actually since in my work we get feedback and interact with people who respond to what we right but the process of managing that flow of information is very different from here -- if i sound rude or angry here that does not mean i then mope around my office just because some XYZ has written something on chowk -- please nazar sahib i think we are all above that i hope -- if someone is rude to you for little reason well they should expect something in return -- its actually the job of the editors here who should weed out such posts -- when i asked them how come they violated their own editorial policies i was told that my pointing that out somehow was the equivalent of me asking them to permanently ban people -- that too was quite silly since i had said no such thing, a rude or offensive post can be refused just like in a newspaper -- and whoever thinks that freedom of expression is something absolute well guess what, we arent living by ourselves where we can do whatever we please -- so why not realize that and at leats abide by our stated policies (to the editors of this site) -- however, it does get harder when those u interact with seem to persistently misunderstand you -- as has now happened with this guy ijaz gul who have no idea what i said and hence what he said about me makes little sense -- and, as usual he too has decided to link his impression of me with my profession -- at least i didnt hide my profession on this website, like so many others -- and by the way nazar sahib i do appreciate what you said about me interacting but i dont come here as a favour to anyone --

NazarHayatKhan #90: Interesting comments. I agree with some parts and disagree with others.

No country comes into existense with an exact future and direction defined. Did the founders of the USA know it would be a superpower, one day. For a long time, they preached isolationalism. Countries grow, like humans grow. Do you know where you grandkid (if you have one) will be thirty years from now? I doubt it. Regardless of how much you may want to define his future, you cannot control the events that will shape it.

A country is not like a military or a company, which can, define a clear goal, for itself. It is a hodge-podge of the desires of its various groups - mullahs, secularists, military, civilian, Muslim, Christian, communists, capatilists, rich, poor etc. Each group, in many cases, hating and opposing the other. If it gets good leadership, those groups energies are used in unison to advance. If it gets bad leadership, those groups end up using their energies agaisnt each other.

Based on this, I think it is quite dangerous to just declare one group to be the cause of all the problems. This is what I try to highlight in all my replies. The aim cannot be to blame the military and the mullah or the girls in jeans or the commies, for everything under the sun. That will not get us anywhere. Because they will just blame you right back, until both of you destroy each other. They are as convinced of their genuineness as you are of yours.

This is why I am always cautious of people who push secularism or theocracy in Pakistan, exclusively. Are they pushing it because they feel Pakistanis want it, or are they pushing it because they, themselves want it? I am even more cautious of people who blame everything on one of these two.

You have to analyse each issue, independently, without any emotional biases. You dislike the mullah and the military. You have made that clear. It could be due to personal experiences that you may have had. But I get the feeling that these two dislikes completely overshadow your analysis of everything else. You tend to blame everything from lack of research to price of tomatoes on these two factors. This is no difference than people blaming everything on Israel. One should only blame genuine things on Israel or the mullah. Not everything (sidenote: Israel is one of the most non-secular states in the world. Please do study the differences in how they treat jews and muslims/christians, in detail, It is actually a religiously aparthied state).

Let us do an objective and unemotional analysis of lack of research and dev. in Pakistan, and how mullahs look at it. While not an expert, I do have some experience in this area. There are quite a few mullahs studying in the USA, whom I have run into. Let us take the example of our two local mullahs , i.e. Urstruly and Naqshbandi:

Urstruly considers Ahmedis to be non-Muslims. He thinks Indians should get an ass-whopping if they visit Pakistan. His own words. Naqshbandi goes one step furthur. He considers even Shias to be intolerable. And thinks certain pirs had the ability to fly.

But what are their views of technology and R&D? Well, both are highly technically qualified. Naqshbandi has a Ph.D. in a technical field. And I believe Urstruly has a Masters. They are significantly more technically qualified than you. And have probably done, and continue to do, a lot more R&D in some capacity than you or Hamidm or many others who are very anti-mullah.

And if I am reading the tea-leaves correctly, I can bet you that the chances of Naqshbandi going back to do R&D and teach in Pakistan, are quite a bit higher than the chances of any of the more, ``secular`` or anti-mullah brigade of going back to Pakistan.

While in Pakistan, both Urstruly and Naqshbandi may denounce Ahmedis and/or Shias. But I doubt they will denounce R&D. They consider Dr. Salam a non-Muslim, but they admire his technical achievements. Similarly, Pakistan`s technical universities are filled with Jamiat students. While they may cause a lot of trouble, they are studying technology, as much as they can. And from what I have heard, the major group of technolgists that are willing to stay in Pakistan to run its nuclear reactors are from the mullah group. The, ``gora`` groups makes a beeline for USA, immediately after graduating from LUMS or Aga Khan.

Pakistan`s mullahs, while they have other problems, are R&D friendly. Even universities like LUMS have mullah professors, because other Pakistani professors want to leave Pakistan. While many mullahs are willing to struggle it out. Qazi Hussein, may want to end co-education and introduce Shariah, but his son(s) went to the USA to study technolgy. Similarly, the poor people sending their kids to madrassahs to become mullahs, would much rather send their kids to Beaconhouse, Aitchison, LUMS and then abroad to become Comp. Scientists, if they could afford it.

So you need to keep all these things in mind, when analyzing this problem. Mullahs are the cause of a lot of problems. But not in R&D, since they themselves participate in it. And, since they have never run Pakistan, they cannot be given the main blame for ruining Pakistan, either. They have a very clear vision of what they want Pakistan to be. And they have always pushed that, regardless of how wrong it may seem to you (or to me). Unfortunately, the non-mullahs, who have been the group running Pakistan (be they from the military or civil), from day one, have never had the moral fortitude to push the vision they had (or claimed to have). They have always sold themselves out to the highest bidder.

Perhaps this is something you need to analyze about yourself and your generation. And only then should you start blaming the mullah..........

Pakistanis have proved once again, that they are the least instrumentalist when it comes to working for a common objective. Our narrow self interests and fragile egos are more important than the cause and effect relationship. Dysfunctionalism is the name of the game.

Mera Raqeeb Merey ander hai
Mera wajood mera dushman hai
Mein apney aap se jang mein hoon
Meri halat merey watan si hai.

This was most obvious in the lively discussions on the indian elections. There was unsubstantial contribution from this side of the fence and more conspiracy theories. Surprisingly, there is hardly any response to Omar`s word`s of wisdom on `Why the India Media got it wrong`. This needs analysis.

Right on this board, Omar has shown the way to patriotism to atleast four of his country persons. It speaks volumes of his media skills.

Alas! we too have the likes of Gajjubania. We must equal india bomb to bomb. shit to shit.

Nazar, I respect your eloquence. Zahraj, though I agree with most of your observations,at the end of the day we remain strings of the same strand. Lets us light our own candles.

Cheerios

Omar # 94 & 98

(-- but if a pakistani were to post something relevant on something about india he or she would get it -- take the case of this interactor asfand on the board on the article about india`s election voting -- how many pakistanis do u see interacting with the indians -- because they rather not waste their time trying to deal with the indians who unfortunately turn into a mob when they are all interacting together -- it seems like they have a pack mentality -- all come together and start acting obnoxious -- and nazar hayat sahib there`s a way to call a spade a spade, without insulting people`s antecedents and without presuming fifty things about them ...)

Your views are extremely enlightening and you put them across so effectively - everyone knows it and appreciates it. The Chowk site has a lot of value addition because of you.

And there are all kinds of Interacters from all backgrounds - polite, crude, abrupt, non-logical, logical, informative and so on.

But we do not expect you to get angry so easily - you are not an ordinary teenager - you are into this very business of News & Ideas.

And a completely hostile idea or rude language should not upset you so much.

And as that old beaten-up saying goes, if some one else jumps into a well, why should you.

Incidently, I have interacted with some very rude Interacters but I have never lost my cool. I decided long time back that if I have to stay at Chowk as my past time, I will never get angry. Even with Manto who became very personal, I never lost my cool.

What one needs to get from a hostile Interacter is the gist of his Post only & not his mood and emotion.

The Indian Interacters provide that much needed opinion from across the border in real time which is otherwise not available in Pakistan. And they add to the inside knowledge and information about India which we need to have for informed and balanced views.

I am extremely sorry and apologize if I am sounding too preachy.

there are many continuing education programs which working enggs find very useful, and are partlly conducted with visiting faculty and web. since the students are working enggs, lab etc are normally are a not a big issue. e.g. Reliance Petro among others offers its B.Sc employees a course which turns them into chemichal engg in 3-4 yrs and is taught by visiting IIT professors. pakistan can use a similar model, where all faujis above the rank of Major can get PhDs in computer science

RSRCH Cont`d....

I `lost` another post in cyber space, not sure if it`ll re-appear here in some time. Continuing #80... I have an example to share from the media world. For reference, it`s about the capacity of the value chain to absorb a technological import.

Many of the TV Channels have aquired the `latest tech` or are at least miles ahead of the state-owned media. Based on the support of highly-equipped outdoor broadcasting (OB) vans, high speed info transfer, networks, etc.... the channels raised the bar in terms of quality and quantity of output. The equipment can run longr hours... channels can work 24/7... news are faster. Very quickly, that led to a demand for 24/7 content from viewers. On the news side, ppl now expect and demand live coverage.

So far so good. BUT NOW - the value chain. Where is the CONTENT for this immense demand? Where are the trained ppl to man the equipment n properly leverage the investment made on it by using it in high-return productons for instance?

So now the channels are backward integrating. Some of them have to revert to strengthening the suppliers... do the rsrch themselves which shud ideally be available to all players.... but still, it`s a long shot. Perhaps in a way, this actually PROVES your point, Dagny which is that import of tech/expertise will lead to improving the value chain.
However, there has been ill preparation at least in this one case, and there will continue to be issues of quality, since that`ll be the first to be compromised in order to meet the programming needs.

I predict that there will be `corrections` in this sector, and overall we`ll come out much better than in the past... but still not justifying the tech we have. That merits perhaps an article of it own.... and I guess that`s another topic altogether.

I dunno, but if there is no rsrch and learning at least in the case of media, there will be no clear direction, and technology/ people`s expertise will not be fully leveraged.

---

#83: I think I promised as much. Keep acting in whatever manner you wish, b/c that does not reflect on my character. ~~~ Similar for you, Ralph.
#79: ...However, this one has hurt me Sadna. Apparantly you did not read through the unplugged post, if not, plz do. I will not bring that discussion here, ex-burger bull as I may be. I will however not come back with a taunt.

nazarhayatkhan -- another uncle tom in the making -- zahra why thank you for the good advice -- :)

nazarhayat sahib -- its good to call a spade a spade -- no one would have a problem with that but its pretty obvious from this site that whenever a pakistani tends to call a spade a spade about something happening in india he/she gets it from the indian brigade -- clearly the latter as not as tolerant about others commenting on affairs in india as they would like the pakistanis to be when the comment on affairs related to pakistan -- someone like pmishra who posted a very immature and irrelevant comment got something in return -- but if a pakistani were to post something relevant on something about india he or she would get it -- take the case of this interactor asfand on the board on the article about india`s election voting -- how many pakistanis do u see interacting with the indians -- because they rather not waste their time trying to deal with the indians who unfortunately turn into a mob when they are all interacting together -- it seems like they have a pack mentality -- all come together and start acting obnoxious -- and nazar hayat sahib there`s a way to call a spade a spade, without insulting people`s antecedents and without presuming fifty things about them --

Unfortunately, when you have Pakistan’s greatest ever scientist and a Nobel winner at that, Abdus Salam unacknowledged in his own country because he belonged to the religion of the infidels, it doesn’t speak too highly of a country trying to catch up with the rest of the world. And as long as martial quality is valued over scholarliness, Pakistan will continue to be a country that produces more warriors (Jihadis and the like) than scholars.

#84 by Romair on June 1, 2004 6:57pm PT

[The mullah has been at the bottom of the Pakistani society for 55 years. How can he be the cause of all the problems?]

When Abdus Salam, the Muslim world’s first and Pakistan’s only Nobel prize winner, wanted to establish a research institute in Pakistan, Gen. Zia-ul-Haq, fearing the wrath of the Mullahs, refused permission. Disillusioned, the man had to start a research center at Trieste in Italy. Here is a real world example of how the Mullahs scuttled a man’s burning ambition to contribute his bit towards building a modern Pakistan.

And that bit on a Pakistani scientist trying to capture genies to extract energy out of them is a telling example of how over-reliance on a book can blind even a highly educated man.

libyan option

There is only one realistic option for pakistan, that is the libyan option. Nobody wants an islamic bomb, especially with khan episode. The bomb will get to the jihadis, it is a matter of time.

Pakistan will be killed, slowly and steadily till the bomb is diffused.

Merit ignored



I got the top position in the MSc (Psychology) 2003 final examination of the Government College University (GCU), Lahore, by securing 1,301 marks out of 1,500. Accordingly, I was awarded a gold medal at a convocation presided over by the prime minister.

On the advice of the chairperson of the department of psychology, I submitted my curriculum vitae to the relevant department of the Queen Mary College, Lahore, for consideration against some temporary post there. I was hoping that they would call me for an interview.

But much to my surprise I have just come to know that they did not consider me for even an interview. What is the use of a gold medal which cannot even help me in securing a job? Will the authorities please look into the matter?

LUBNA RASHEED

///////////

Above is aletter to editor in dawn. No omar quraishi will dare to arite an editorial on this, for him and many pakistanis from the k for kafir education system, it is the military, the general in his mecedes is the hero. It is not scholarship.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Romair # 84

(I think people go way overboard in blaming the mullah for every problem in Pakistan. It is no different that the people who blame India for everything ..............)

Thanks for your long Post. My Post must have sounded irrelevant because I wanted to put too much of cause-and-effect in a few lines. Incidently, I am all out for what the writer is saying.

But in every sphere of our life - be it education, civil society, liberties & freedoms, the Government structure, democracy etc etc, we eventually hit a wall of conflict or confusion.

Resulting mainly from the pupose of our existance and the philosophy on which the nation is based. Unless we clearly resolve this basic conflict, we will continue to remain in a vicious circle - going nowhere with no clear direction. Research is only a part of this Big Whole.

We can not compare ourselves with a democratic India with a clear national purpose nor even with Israel which is a secular state. Our situation is quite unique.

I agree that Mullas are not to be blamed for everything. But presently, it may be good for our health if we focus on the damage being caused by the Mullas & the Military.

As for the blame game, everyone from the starting founding fathers need to be blamed for not clearly stating what kind of country this would be ; and the earlier Governments for not giving a good liberal democratic Constitutions - and the subsequent Governments including of the present day. We have failed to shed off the appendage of religion from the State.

I know this reply is very short - but you will understand what I am talking.

Einstein Jee,

A pragmatic, touching and beautiful post!

[Also a link between science and improvement of life should be palpably obvious to common people. Not like ``woh bahut padhega, umreeka jayega aur bahut dollar kamaayega``. But like ``woh wheat ki production rate badhayega`` etc etc. People do see link between better physicians and surviving diseases, but not in any tangible way the link between mathematics and improvement of life. ]

You have hit the nail right on the head. Thank You. I was going around the above thought and you have a put a closure to that.

It`s this culture that constantly pushes you to add more to your life`s portfolio. The more exposed you are to the latest and greatest developments in the industry, the more you have the desire to further expand your horizons. It`s not because you have nothing else to do therefore you will like to pass time in taking an executive program. It`s because you want to invest in your life since you see the long term application therefore you would make that investment. And, to your point, when you reach a certain point, it`s a natural desire to grow further. That becomes a constantly growing need.

Romair,
Fawad left Hamdard a long time back. Lets not start a guessing game into who is who. Rather we should share ideas that benefit the society of Pakistan.
Cheerios!!!

Ijaz_gul #86: ``I reached the eye of the storm but you did not respond.``

Your comments are quite difficult to decipher :-) If you are talking about Dr. Fawad. My reply was Hamdard University.....

As for my expertise on higher education, I am by no means an expert. I pretty much stated everything I know about it in my first few replies. I have however been exposed to it, in the sense, that we recruit a lot of candidates with higher education degrees from all over the world, including Ph.Ds. So I can do a comparison.

Since we are on the subject, there are two surprising things that come to mind: There are quite a few candidates from Iran, specifically in the Canadian IT arena. And they are all quite good. I would put them in the same range as the Indians and Pakistanis, in terms of productivity, i.e. top of the lot of foreigners. For both Irani girls and guys.

I have to guess that the mullahs in Iran seem to have put together a decent system of education. This furthur goes against the mullah is to be blamed for everything theory.

The other trend I will mention, in my next reply, after you explain your undecipherable message........

Romair,
I reached the eye of the storm but you did not respond. Seems you are an expert in higher education. Your comments on this subject would be valuable.
Cheerios

DagnyTaggart # 77 - You wrote- ``I think people not being curious enough has more to do with the economics than religion or culture.``

In one sentence you have said it ALL ! Islam or no Islam, it is the economics that drives research.

Consider this:

- there is more likelihood of an american protesting in street about environmental issues than someone in China or India. China and India are not muslim countries. But people in these two countries are more concerned with putting the bread on their table any way possible, and have no time or energy or even ``culture of research`` regarding environmental issues.

- an American child will have more curiosity and inkilings of research about life on Mars than a child in Mexico. Why? Because economic prosperity has provided american child with ample time (he does not have to work to support his family) and freedom from other issues of life to indulge in such studies.

So, the REAL question to be asked is this: is economic prosperity the pre-requisite for giving birth to a ``Culture of Research and Learning`` or is it the other way around. In other words, did the egg come first or the chicken.

NazarHayatKhan #75: I think people go way overboard in blaming the mullah for every problem in Pakistan. It is no different that the people who blame India for everything wrong in Pakistan. Or people who blame Jews for everything wrong in Pakistan. Or people who blame America for everything wrong in Pakistan.

In reality, while all the above have had some impact, I don`t think they are even close to being the main cause of the problems in Pakistan. The mullah has been at the bottom of the Pakistani society for 55 years. How can he be the cause of all the problems?
Mullahs are nothing more than a convenient punching bag to let off steam. Everyone knows that India, USA, Israel, and mullah are not going to go away, hence this outlet will be around forever. It is no different that mullah blaming co-education for everything wrong in society. It is neither here nor there.

If you were to ask me, I would blame my parent`s generation (which includes your generation) for screwing up Pakistan, before I would blame the mullah. All of you were given a decent country with resources. There was good growth in the 60s. Yet your generation screwed it up thoroughly. The mullah has only now come into power, after people have been fed-up with everyone else.

Specifically within the context of this article, how have you concluded that, ``Then sky is the limit for carrying out research on any topic on this earth,`` if TNT is done away with? I think TNT is neither here nor there when it comes to academic research. If every Pakistani approved of it or denounced it, it wouldn`t really make much of a difference, one way or the other.

As an example, Israel has by far the strongest version of TNT in the world. It is many times stronger than Pakistan`s. An Arab Muslim or Christian whose family has lived in a house in Tel-Aviv for centuries, can no longer live in it. However, a Jewish person from Russia, who has never spent a single day in Israel, in his whole life, can make a call to the Israeli embassy, and occupy that same house, with an Israeli citizenship.

Yet Israel is at the forefront of scientific research in the world. Tel-Aviv has the second highest number of scientists per square feet in the world, after San Jose.

India, under the BJP, was for more communal than Pakistan has ever been. However, India was still producing scientists like rabbits produce babies.

Issues like education and research require objective, unemotional thinking and analysis. One cannot let them become a victim of rhetoric. If one is going to blame TNT for lack of research, then how can one stop people from blaming India or Jews for lack of research (or girls in jeans, for that matter). These issues have a place of their own for a separate discussion. But I am not quite sure what is gained by dragging them into every topic and problem of Pakistan.

In fact, one could make a pretty good counter-argument, that the only group of foreign qualified Ph.Ds that are willing to go back to Pakistan to teach, are from the maulvi brigade. I have taught courses in universities in Silicon Valley. I have not seen too many, ``non-maulvi`` qualified Pakistanis volunteering to go back to Pakistan (with or without TNT). The mullah brigade Ph.Ds head back far more than non-mullah Ph.Ds.

This is not to say that TNT and other issues should not be discussed. But when one is discussing oranges, what is gained by brining in apples? I have met more than my share of maulvi graduate students in the USA. They are as good in their fields as the non-maulvi students. They may have other issues, but denouncing research and development isn`t one of them. They get their degrees like the rest of us.

The problems in lack of research and dev. in Pakistan lie somewhere else......And that is what should be discussed. And I seriously doubt they will be solved by denouncing or promoting TNT.

ZahraJ #66
It HAS been a long time :). Hope you notice, one big problem is that the bulls do not read very well.

Dagny,
Thanks, magar aap mujhay marvayen ge. If I don`t get shot down by those who think I have an agenda this way or that, it`ll be my newly inflated ego that`ll get me.
My delusions of persecution aside - I slightly disagree with what you stated in #69. How can we adapt to what we import if we do not have original research? Perhaps it is better if you differentiate between the kinds of research in terms of technological R&D... primary/secondary, etc. ``Groundbreaking`` remains a vague term.

Actually in certain fields, we can simply adapt and adopt from anywhere in the world. VERY broadly speaking, research involve the human factor (e.g. org behavior, biz, communication) is easy to transfer across borders. Technology, however, is severely limited in its application; it`s very restricted geographically... it has layers of cultural and scientific evolution limited to the experience and demands of a certain type of ppl... and therefore not a great idea to transfer it that too without research.

Esp. in Pakistan - my experience and observation say - that ppl never really match up to an imported technology. Why? first, there is never a change mgmt plan in practice which a recipe for disaster. then ppl aren`t familiar with tech... the society isn`t ready for it as a whole. Most critically, from a business POV, the VALUE CHAIN isn`t ready to absorb the tech. ROI is hardly justified. I`ve been involved with the ``IT revolution`` among other things, and the conclusion is that without knowing where one wants to go, it`s useless to haul in tech/expertise to get there.

I.e. we need a mission (WHERE DO WE WANT TO GO) first, then a strategy (HOW). Research & learning will then best answer HOW TO GET THERE.

---

Notes:
1. Today is a forced chutti ka din for me, hence I am soooooo NOT LOGGING OFF.
2. Sorry for the crazy posts, have a network prob that prevents me from posting smoothly. It`s just one reason why, b4 i can carry out my argument on a thread, it`s gone from THE TOPIC to THE BORDER. BTW, #68 was AFTER #71,72.

Omar: Please grow up!

Why are Muslim countries intellectual deserts and Islamic `literature` nearly as fertile as sand dunes?

We need to understand that intellectual curiousity (of which research is just one part) requires openness. The ability to question self-serving `God-given` platitudes. Courage to break from the crowd. Above all, unshakeable commitment to truth, no matter where the chips may fall.

In Islamic countries these are utterly blasphemous requirements. In these countries, the dominant ideology asserts that the source of all truth is known. The job of all well-meaning researchers is to research backward to explain why what is known is true.

Consequently, as formerly-burger flyhighkites claims, every other line in Muslim scriptures invites Muslims to `think` (so much thinking invariably leads to habitual hyperebole and blatant truth-shading on the part of such thinkers). Yet, all Muslim thinking is ultimately required to reaffirm known hypotheses, at risk of the individual`s or family`s life and limb. The freedom to question basic premises, to research the truth as it is, not as Muslims believe it to be, is an un-Islamic concept. Some individuals may wish to break out of this sandy, lifeless, desert shell, but the society will not let them. That`s the nature of Islam -the primary spirit of Muslim countries. The rest are minor issues.

---

DagnyTaggart

`I don`t get the sarcasm`.....


My fault, lady. Perhaps we shouldn`t have expected you to get it?

Flyhighkites: Please avoid addressing me in your future discourses. Probably, you should start flying low since the height is impacting your well being.

Mr. Haider

Very informative article.

I think people not being curious enough has more to do with the economics than religion or culture.

``Jay, Sadna, Arjun_m & ZaraJ``

laholwila quwat. Nazar Sahib bhang te hath hola rakho

While Murtaza set out the noble goal & FINAL DESTINATION,

Jay, Sadna, Arjun_m & ZaraJ very rightly pointed out the main hurdle. They may sound rough but they call a spade a spade.

How many of us are bold enough to stand up on a Forum and say that TWO-NATION-THEORY is no more valid. It is now ONE nation of Pakistan based on its Geography and History.

Meanwhile, the full-throated Mulla keeps sermonizing on loud speakers day in day out - Islam, Islam, Islam - Pakistan was created in the name of Islam. And his theory is fully agreed by the Faujis & the Muslim Leagures - the Majority in Assembly. The only people who differ are the PPP wallas, MQM and the smaller national parties.

Unlike Jay, Sadna, Arjun-M & ZaraJ, we are not bold enough to stand up & be blunt.

Meanwhile, our Constitution becomes subservient to Quran & Sunnah - Democracy is killed. Universities can not even open Departments of Music and Performiong Arts.

The full-throated Mulla keeps on saying that Quran contains everything. There is no other guidance is required.

Cutting the long story short, we need to openly state that the Two-Nation-Theory is no more valid. Every citizen has equal rights. Everyone to his own belief. Everything else will fall into its own place automatically.

Then sky is the limit for carrying out research on any topic on this earth.

(Remember, Ijtihad or Research has been banned in Islam since the last few hundred years)

Sadna, Ralph, ZahraJ - the ``off-track`` comments on this discussion thread are in the unplugged area, off-the-wall, same heading.

---

MurtazaH, there is little that I can add given that many interactors incl. Malik, HP, ballu, sadna, sridhar, and others have pretty much covered the issues. Briefly, these are my thoughts:

1. Curiosity is not nurtured in our environment. Why not? Ballu`s/HP`s answer explains most of it. I feel that it is the ``Chosen One`` attitude - the feeling that we`re already there - fatalistic notions - that are to blame.
2. But that`s not the only thing. Let me throw in a curve - I also feel that there is a general lack of ``energy`` in people. The lethargic attitude... the will to do nothing, and no will to do anything. Is lifestyle to be blamed?
3. Pandora`s Box: It is amazing where this curiosity-killing comes from as far as Muslims are concerned. Isn`t the every other line in Muslim scriptures an invitation to ``think?`` And to observe? I would recommend that as a charter of any research-driven university!

Life is fairly like a movie with a certain ending, or at least one that is certain to end. Still, we read books through and through, and watch every other predictable movie. Why can`t life be lived as a curious person who pokes around and explores... why does it just slip us away? I am thinking aloud here, though there are many private conclusions that I have reached. More later, duty calls!

sadna plz stop quoting stuff from asia times -- thats like quoting fox news by the way -- ijaz sahib telling someone to get a life is not abusing them -- its actually helping them out by giving them some good advice, esp if u consider who its for -- zingari , man you`re absolutely right, tho im not sure zahraJ even got the Uncle Tom reference --

flyhighkites,
You are one of the coolest and smartest people on this site. Thank you for having the courage to state the obvious and for talking some sense to the cyber warriors. Let me just say that the point scoring that goes on between indians and pakistanis on this site is totally disgusting. Let me also say that lately I have seen more indians than pakistanis indulge in such kind of behaviour (although I have to admit that both sides have bad apples in equal measure) Each and every article that appears on chowk eventually degenerates into a bashfest between india and pakistan.

The chowk`s tagline says ``Ideas and identities of Pakistan`` but to me it seems more like ``Gali and Galuch of subcontinental filth`` I dont want to appear sanctimonious, nor do I want to hijack this thoughtful article, but chowk need to put stop to this mindless chatter or else it will become another Paknews type site. Please lets try to have a DIALOGUE on this site instead of a shouting match. Thanks.

pmishra, arjum_m, ralph et al: Although I fail to ``get`` the sarcasm intended in pmishra`s post, I agree that sometimes sarcasm is the best way to make your point. However, it does not help when directed randomly and intended mainly as a flame bait.
Getting off the soapbox now :)

Research and Learning:
In today`s world higher, ground breaking research always requires large amounts of funds. Check out any university in the western world and you will see cut throat competition between different research programs for funds. In developing countries like india and pakistan - where many people go without a square meal on many days - the masses WILL treat education as just a tool to better their leaving conditions.

For example, how many posters on this board have done their graduation or post graduation in fields related to pure sciences as apposed to engineering / management / finance related fields? Even in a progressive and relatively better educated state like Maharashtra in India, the number of students on the Engineering waiting list is double the number of seats going vacant in Pure science courses. All this points to one fact: People of subcontinent do not think that a career in higher research is a good career move.

Let me now ask a question: Why is higher research a MUST for a country like, say, India? In todays world, where every new technological breakthrough is available to anyone with an internet connection, why must we waste our national resources in higher research? I believe that our resources will be better spent by acquiring technologies already invented - by fair means or foul, doesnt matter - and adapting them for our use. Remember, Japanese did not invent automobile or transister but Japanese cars and electronic items are respected for their quality world over. It is only in the later part of Japanese technical revolution that they started churning out items ranging from walkmans to electronic gaming machines to pet robots.

So my solution: Do not waste our resources on higher research right now. Instead, concentrate on building a critical mass of skilled technical labor force (engineers, technicians, etc) right now. Once we have such a body of knowledge and skills, the advances in higher research will follow. Untill then, it will be a domain of elites, much like it has been throughout the history of Indian civilization.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Sadna, Ralph, ZahraJ - the ``off-track`` comments on this discussion thread are in the unplugged area, off-the-wall, same heading.

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MurtazaH, there is little that I can add given that many interactors incl. Malik, HP, ballu, sadna, sridhar, and others have pretty much covered the issues. Briefly, these are my thoughts:

1. Curiosity is not nurtured in our environment. Why not? Ballu`s/HP`s answer explains most of it. I feel that it is the ``Chosen One`` attitude - the feeling that we`re already there - fatalistic notions - that are to blame.
2. But that`s not the only thing. Let me throw in a curve - I also feel that there is a general lack of ``energy`` in people. The lethargic attitude... the will to do nothing, and no will to do anything. Is lifestyle to be blamed?
3. Pandora`s Box: It is amazing where this curiosity-killing comes from as far as Muslims are concerned. Isn`t the every other line in Muslim scriptures an invitation to ``think?`` And to observe? I would recommend that as a charter of any research-driven university!

Life is fairly like a movie with a certain ending, or at least one that is certain to end. Still, we read books through and through, and watch every other predictable movie. Why can`t life be lived as a curious person who pokes around and explores... why does it just slip us away? I am thinking aloud here, though there are many private conclusions that I have reached. More later, duty calls!

All economic conditions kept constant, there is a dire need of research - that includes biz research and theoretical research (which must ultimately lead to tanglible economic benefits). One of the issues that organizations are facing in PK today is the break-down of value chain at many levels... As a manager in a fledgling organization, I, among other PK mngrs, see this issue in the face. Forget about rsrsch, there is hardly any info OR even data to be found. Finally the organization has to resort to do its own rsrch for every little thing, but this goes against the basic economics sense. What a waste of resources!

Here I`d appreciate that the Indians are far ahead ... and there are many insitutes that are mining and shaping the data. Great information resources.

Like MH, we also reached the conclusion that the schools and students need to be enabled and involved. B/c on the other hand, students are crying out for real assignments. There is a lack of a match-making mechanism... a clearing house for demand and supply.... and sadly this ``match-making`` is absent at many levels.

True, that some organizations are still afraid of rsrch; yet by and large the PK mngrs are realizing that self-defeating nature of this attitude. My personal experience has been that if we Ivy-types care enough to sit down and explain to the seth the virtue of rsrch, they do listen, and they do act.

About the culture of rsrch: Some instances

* On an interest-based yahoogroup, an MBA finalist asked ``Hey guys! this is my final semester. Wanna do a paper on advertising, but no idea what to write. Can anybody tell me what topic to do my reasearch on. Thnx.`` Surprised at receiving this msg from Planet Ignorance, I beamed back that it was horrible to be so clueless at this stage of
one`s MBA and to get someone to do the assignment (picking the rsrch ques was part of the assignment). This person must be knowledgeable enough to know what problem may he choose to rsrch on. I would certainly not like to hire him! Surprisingly, it was I who ``got it`` from the group, with only tacit support.

* I met a grad `rsrchr` undertaking a rsrch on media preferences. She asked me to fill a questnre. I pointed out that most of the questions were leading, and the rsrch was completely biased, even nonsensical. (Also, the grammatical mistakes and absence of directions, etc.!) Her reply: ``Oho, doesn`t matter. Mark anything. I`ve already made my
report.`` I balled up the paper and threw it in the bin.

* Paper on e-banking, submitted by an MBA finalist. Despite my hours of training spiced with warnings that I will know if there is any copy/paste, fake rsrch job, this is what I got on page 3:
``CityBank also offers this blah-blah online service. For more information, click here.``
- and this came from the ``top business school`` ki student.

Sadna: I may not have exchanged notes with you on Chowk in a long long long while, but I definitely didn`t misunderstand you. There was some pun in my previous post. I am completely in agreement with your previous assertion and I am glad that you took the bull by its horns. The worst thing is that th