The Culture of Research and Learning

ijaz gul where in teh world did you get the impression that i was trying to be patriotic -- i think its a pretty loaded and dirty word for me so lets not go there -- as expected i didnt really think u would get the gist of my argument -- and also dont get your rather tenuous link where you say my so-called demonstration of `patriotism` on this board `speaks volumes for my media skills` -- could you please elaborate and please tell me what my media skills, or lack thereof, are? have you worked with me or with anyone who has worked with me? have we ever met? have you written even a minute proportion of the stuff that i have written in the past 10 years of being a journalist? stop passing judgments ijaz sahib about my professional skills or lack thereof, you only betray your own simplistic thinking when you do that -- because i dont do the same with you or others, and i expect the same in return

nazar sahib -- thanks for your comments -- by the way i was a teenager last some 14 years ago -- as for me getting angry i think that is everyone`s right really as long as they dont burn other people with it -- interacting here is, for me, interacting in a world which is literally virtual -- its interesting actually since in my work we get feedback and interact with people who respond to what we right but the process of managing that flow of information is very different from here -- if i sound rude or angry here that does not mean i then mope around my office just because some XYZ has written something on chowk -- please nazar sahib i think we are all above that i hope -- if someone is rude to you for little reason well they should expect something in return -- its actually the job of the editors here who should weed out such posts -- when i asked them how come they violated their own editorial policies i was told that my pointing that out somehow was the equivalent of me asking them to permanently ban people -- that too was quite silly since i had said no such thing, a rude or offensive post can be refused just like in a newspaper -- and whoever thinks that freedom of expression is something absolute well guess what, we arent living by ourselves where we can do whatever we please -- so why not realize that and at leats abide by our stated policies (to the editors of this site) -- however, it does get harder when those u interact with seem to persistently misunderstand you -- as has now happened with this guy ijaz gul who have no idea what i said and hence what he said about me makes little sense -- and, as usual he too has decided to link his impression of me with my profession -- at least i didnt hide my profession on this website, like so many others -- and by the way nazar sahib i do appreciate what you said about me interacting but i dont come here as a favour to anyone --

NazarHayatKhan #90: Interesting comments. I agree with some parts and disagree with others.

No country comes into existense with an exact future and direction defined. Did the founders of the USA know it would be a superpower, one day. For a long time, they preached isolationalism. Countries grow, like humans grow. Do you know where you grandkid (if you have one) will be thirty years from now? I doubt it. Regardless of how much you may want to define his future, you cannot control the events that will shape it.

A country is not like a military or a company, which can, define a clear goal, for itself. It is a hodge-podge of the desires of its various groups - mullahs, secularists, military, civilian, Muslim, Christian, communists, capatilists, rich, poor etc. Each group, in many cases, hating and opposing the other. If it gets good leadership, those groups energies are used in unison to advance. If it gets bad leadership, those groups end up using their energies agaisnt each other.

Based on this, I think it is quite dangerous to just declare one group to be the cause of all the problems. This is what I try to highlight in all my replies. The aim cannot be to blame the military and the mullah or the girls in jeans or the commies, for everything under the sun. That will not get us anywhere. Because they will just blame you right back, until both of you destroy each other. They are as convinced of their genuineness as you are of yours.

This is why I am always cautious of people who push secularism or theocracy in Pakistan, exclusively. Are they pushing it because they feel Pakistanis want it, or are they pushing it because they, themselves want it? I am even more cautious of people who blame everything on one of these two.

You have to analyse each issue, independently, without any emotional biases. You dislike the mullah and the military. You have made that clear. It could be due to personal experiences that you may have had. But I get the feeling that these two dislikes completely overshadow your analysis of everything else. You tend to blame everything from lack of research to price of tomatoes on these two factors. This is no difference than people blaming everything on Israel. One should only blame genuine things on Israel or the mullah. Not everything (sidenote: Israel is one of the most non-secular states in the world. Please do study the differences in how they treat jews and muslims/christians, in detail, It is actually a religiously aparthied state).

Let us do an objective and unemotional analysis of lack of research and dev. in Pakistan, and how mullahs look at it. While not an expert, I do have some experience in this area. There are quite a few mullahs studying in the USA, whom I have run into. Let us take the example of our two local mullahs , i.e. Urstruly and Naqshbandi:

Urstruly considers Ahmedis to be non-Muslims. He thinks Indians should get an ass-whopping if they visit Pakistan. His own words. Naqshbandi goes one step furthur. He considers even Shias to be intolerable. And thinks certain pirs had the ability to fly.

But what are their views of technology and R&D? Well, both are highly technically qualified. Naqshbandi has a Ph.D. in a technical field. And I believe Urstruly has a Masters. They are significantly more technically qualified than you. And have probably done, and continue to do, a lot more R&D in some capacity than you or Hamidm or many others who are very anti-mullah.

And if I am reading the tea-leaves correctly, I can bet you that the chances of Naqshbandi going back to do R&D and teach in Pakistan, are quite a bit higher than the chances of any of the more, ``secular`` or anti-mullah brigade of going back to Pakistan.

While in Pakistan, both Urstruly and Naqshbandi may denounce Ahmedis and/or Shias. But I doubt they will denounce R&D. They consider Dr. Salam a non-Muslim, but they admire his technical achievements. Similarly, Pakistan`s technical universities are filled with Jamiat students. While they may cause a lot of trouble, they are studying technology, as much as they can. And from what I have heard, the major group of technolgists that are willing to stay in Pakistan to run its nuclear reactors are from the mullah group. The, ``gora`` groups makes a beeline for USA, immediately after graduating from LUMS or Aga Khan.

Pakistan`s mullahs, while they have other problems, are R&D friendly. Even universities like LUMS have mullah professors, because other Pakistani professors want to leave Pakistan. While many mullahs are willing to struggle it out. Qazi Hussein, may want to end co-education and introduce Shariah, but his son(s) went to the USA to study technolgy. Similarly, the poor people sending their kids to madrassahs to become mullahs, would much rather send their kids to Beaconhouse, Aitchison, LUMS and then abroad to become Comp. Scientists, if they could afford it.

So you need to keep all these things in mind, when analyzing this problem. Mullahs are the cause of a lot of problems. But not in R&D, since they themselves participate in it. And, since they have never run Pakistan, they cannot be given the main blame for ruining Pakistan, either. They have a very clear vision of what they want Pakistan to be. And they have always pushed that, regardless of how wrong it may seem to you (or to me). Unfortunately, the non-mullahs, who have been the group running Pakistan (be they from the military or civil), from day one, have never had the moral fortitude to push the vision they had (or claimed to have). They have always sold themselves out to the highest bidder.

Perhaps this is something you need to analyze about yourself and your generation. And only then should you start blaming the mullah..........

Pakistanis have proved once again, that they are the least instrumentalist when it comes to working for a common objective. Our narrow self interests and fragile egos are more important than the cause and effect relationship. Dysfunctionalism is the name of the game.

Mera Raqeeb Merey ander hai
Mera wajood mera dushman hai
Mein apney aap se jang mein hoon
Meri halat merey watan si hai.

This was most obvious in the lively discussions on the indian elections. There was unsubstantial contribution from this side of the fence and more conspiracy theories. Surprisingly, there is hardly any response to Omar`s word`s of wisdom on `Why the India Media got it wrong`. This needs analysis.

Right on this board, Omar has shown the way to patriotism to atleast four of his country persons. It speaks volumes of his media skills.

Alas! we too have the likes of Gajjubania. We must equal india bomb to bomb. shit to shit.

Nazar, I respect your eloquence. Zahraj, though I agree with most of your observations,at the end of the day we remain strings of the same strand. Lets us light our own candles.

Cheerios

Omar # 94 & 98

(-- but if a pakistani were to post something relevant on something about india he or she would get it -- take the case of this interactor asfand on the board on the article about india`s election voting -- how many pakistanis do u see interacting with the indians -- because they rather not waste their time trying to deal with the indians who unfortunately turn into a mob when they are all interacting together -- it seems like they have a pack mentality -- all come together and start acting obnoxious -- and nazar hayat sahib there`s a way to call a spade a spade, without insulting people`s antecedents and without presuming fifty things about them ...)

Your views are extremely enlightening and you put them across so effectively - everyone knows it and appreciates it. The Chowk site has a lot of value addition because of you.

And there are all kinds of Interacters from all backgrounds - polite, crude, abrupt, non-logical, logical, informative and so on.

But we do not expect you to get angry so easily - you are not an ordinary teenager - you are into this very business of News & Ideas.

And a completely hostile idea or rude language should not upset you so much.

And as that old beaten-up saying goes, if some one else jumps into a well, why should you.

Incidently, I have interacted with some very rude Interacters but I have never lost my cool. I decided long time back that if I have to stay at Chowk as my past time, I will never get angry. Even with Manto who became very personal, I never lost my cool.

What one needs to get from a hostile Interacter is the gist of his Post only & not his mood and emotion.

The Indian Interacters provide that much needed opinion from across the border in real time which is otherwise not available in Pakistan. And they add to the inside knowledge and information about India which we need to have for informed and balanced views.

I am extremely sorry and apologize if I am sounding too preachy.

there are many continuing education programs which working enggs find very useful, and are partlly conducted with visiting faculty and web. since the students are working enggs, lab etc are normally are a not a big issue. e.g. Reliance Petro among others offers its B.Sc employees a course which turns them into chemichal engg in 3-4 yrs and is taught by visiting IIT professors. pakistan can use a similar model, where all faujis above the rank of Major can get PhDs in computer science

RSRCH Cont`d....

I `lost` another post in cyber space, not sure if it`ll re-appear here in some time. Continuing #80... I have an example to share from the media world. For reference, it`s about the capacity of the value chain to absorb a technological import.

Many of the TV Channels have aquired the `latest tech` or are at least miles ahead of the state-owned media. Based on the support of highly-equipped outdoor broadcasting (OB) vans, high speed info transfer, networks, etc.... the channels raised the bar in terms of quality and quantity of output. The equipment can run longr hours... channels can work 24/7... news are faster. Very quickly, that led to a demand for 24/7 content from viewers. On the news side, ppl now expect and demand live coverage.

So far so good. BUT NOW - the value chain. Where is the CONTENT for this immense demand? Where are the trained ppl to man the equipment n properly leverage the investment made on it by using it in high-return productons for instance?

So now the channels are backward integrating. Some of them have to revert to strengthening the suppliers... do the rsrch themselves which shud ideally be available to all players.... but still, it`s a long shot. Perhaps in a way, this actually PROVES your point, Dagny which is that import of tech/expertise will lead to improving the value chain.
However, there has been ill preparation at least in this one case, and there will continue to be issues of quality, since that`ll be the first to be compromised in order to meet the programming needs.

I predict that there will be `corrections` in this sector, and overall we`ll come out much better than in the past... but still not justifying the tech we have. That merits perhaps an article of it own.... and I guess that`s another topic altogether.

I dunno, but if there is no rsrch and learning at least in the case of media, there will be no clear direction, and technology/ people`s expertise will not be fully leveraged.

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#83: I think I promised as much. Keep acting in whatever manner you wish, b/c that does not reflect on my character. ~~~ Similar for you, Ralph.
#79: ...However, this one has hurt me Sadna. Apparantly you did not read through the unplugged post, if not, plz do. I will not bring that discussion here, ex-burger bull as I may be. I will however not come back with a taunt.

nazarhayatkhan -- another uncle tom in the making -- zahra why thank you for the good advice -- :)

nazarhayat sahib -- its good to call a spade a spade -- no one would have a problem with that but its pretty obvious from this site that whenever a pakistani tends to call a spade a spade about something happening in india he/she gets it from the indian brigade -- clearly the latter as not as tolerant about others commenting on affairs in india as they would like the pakistanis to be when the comment on affairs related to pakistan -- someone like pmishra who posted a very immature and irrelevant comment got something in return -- but if a pakistani were to post something relevant on something about india he or she would get it -- take the case of this interactor asfand on the board on the article about india`s election voting -- how many pakistanis do u see interacting with the indians -- because they rather not waste their time trying to deal with the indians who unfortunately turn into a mob when they are all interacting together -- it seems like they have a pack mentality -- all come together and start acting obnoxious -- and nazar hayat sahib there`s a way to call a spade a spade, without insulting people`s antecedents and without presuming fifty things about them --

Unfortunately, when you have Pakistan’s greatest ever scientist and a Nobel winner at that, Abdus Salam unacknowledged in his own country because he belonged to the religion of the infidels, it doesn’t speak too highly of a country trying to catch up with the rest of the world. And as long as martial quality is valued over scholarliness, Pakistan will continue to be a country that produces more warriors (Jihadis and the like) than scholars.

#84 by Romair on June 1, 2004 6:57pm PT

[The mullah has been at the bottom of the Pakistani society for 55 years. How can he be the cause of all the problems?]

When Abdus Salam, the Muslim world’s first and Pakistan’s only Nobel prize winner, wanted to establish a research institute in Pakistan, Gen. Zia-ul-Haq, fearing the wrath of the Mullahs, refused permission. Disillusioned, the man had to start a research center at Trieste in Italy. Here is a real world example of how the Mullahs scuttled a man’s burning ambition to contribute his bit towards building a modern Pakistan.

And that bit on a Pakistani scientist trying to capture genies to extract energy out of them is a telling example of how over-reliance on a book can blind even a highly educated man.

libyan option

There is only one realistic option for pakistan, that is the libyan option. Nobody wants an islamic bomb, especially with khan episode. The bomb will get to the jihadis, it is a matter of time.

Pakistan will be killed, slowly and steadily till the bomb is diffused.

Merit ignored



I got the top position in the MSc (Psychology) 2003 final examination of the Government College University (GCU), Lahore, by securing 1,301 marks out of 1,500. Accordingly, I was awarded a gold medal at a convocation presided over by the prime minister.

On the advice of the chairperson of the department of psychology, I submitted my curriculum vitae to the relevant department of the Queen Mary College, Lahore, for consideration against some temporary post there. I was hoping that they would call me for an interview.

But much to my surprise I have just come to know that they did not consider me for even an interview. What is the use of a gold medal which cannot even help me in securing a job? Will the authorities please look into the matter?

LUBNA RASHEED

///////////

Above is aletter to editor in dawn. No omar quraishi will dare to arite an editorial on this, for him and many pakistanis from the k for kafir education system, it is the military, the general in his mecedes is the hero. It is not scholarship.

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Romair # 84

(I think people go way overboard in blaming the mullah for every problem in Pakistan. It is no different that the people who blame India for everything ..............)

Thanks for your long Post. My Post must have sounded irrelevant because I wanted to put too much of cause-and-effect in a few lines. Incidently, I am all out for what the writer is saying.

But in every sphere of our life - be it education, civil society, liberties & freedoms, the Government structure, democracy etc etc, we eventually hit a wall of conflict or confusion.

Resulting mainly from the pupose of our existance and the philosophy on which the nation is based. Unless we clearly resolve this basic conflict, we will continue to remain in a vicious circle - going nowhere with no clear direction. Research is only a part of this Big Whole.

We can not compare ourselves with a democratic India with a clear national purpose nor even with Israel which is a secular state. Our situation is quite unique.

I agree that Mullas are not to be blamed for everything. But presently, it may be good for our health if we focus on the damage being caused by the Mullas & the Military.

As for the blame game, everyone from the starting founding fathers need to be blamed for not clearly stating what kind of country this would be ; and the earlier Governments for not giving a good liberal democratic Constitutions - and the subsequent Governments including of the present day. We have failed to shed off the appendage of religion from the State.

I know this reply is very short - but you will understand what I am talking.

Einstein Jee,

A pragmatic, touching and beautiful post!

[Also a link between science and improvement of life should be palpably obvious to common people. Not like ``woh bahut padhega, umreeka jayega aur bahut dollar kamaayega``. But like ``woh wheat ki production rate badhayega`` etc etc. People do see link between better physicians and surviving diseases, but not in any tangible way the link between mathematics and improvement of life. ]

You have hit the nail right on the head. Thank You. I was going around the above thought and you have a put a closure to that.

It`s this culture that constantly pushes you to add more to your life`s portfolio. The more exposed you are to the latest and greatest developments in the industry, the more you have the desire to further expand your horizons. It`s not because you have nothing else to do therefore you will like to pass time in taking an executive program. It`s because you want to invest in your life since you see the long term application therefore you would make that investment. And, to your point, when you reach a certain point, it`s a natural desire to grow further. That becomes a constantly growing need.

Romair,
Fawad left Hamdard a long time back. Lets not start a guessing game into who is who. Rather we should share ideas that benefit the society of Pakistan.
Cheerios!!!