The Culture of Research and Learning
Murtaza Haider May 28, 2004
#87 Posted by Romair on June 1, 2004 8:00:54 pm
Ijaz_gul #86: ``I reached the eye of the storm but you did not respond.``
Your comments are quite difficult to decipher :-) If you are talking about Dr. Fawad. My reply was Hamdard University.....
As for my expertise on higher education, I am by no means an expert. I pretty much stated everything I know about it in my first few replies. I have however been exposed to it, in the sense, that we recruit a lot of candidates with higher education degrees from all over the world, including Ph.Ds. So I can do a comparison.
Since we are on the subject, there are two surprising things that come to mind: There are quite a few candidates from Iran, specifically in the Canadian IT arena. And they are all quite good. I would put them in the same range as the Indians and Pakistanis, in terms of productivity, i.e. top of the lot of foreigners. For both Irani girls and guys.
I have to guess that the mullahs in Iran seem to have put together a decent system of education. This furthur goes against the mullah is to be blamed for everything theory.
The other trend I will mention, in my next reply, after you explain your undecipherable message........
Your comments are quite difficult to decipher :-) If you are talking about Dr. Fawad. My reply was Hamdard University.....
As for my expertise on higher education, I am by no means an expert. I pretty much stated everything I know about it in my first few replies. I have however been exposed to it, in the sense, that we recruit a lot of candidates with higher education degrees from all over the world, including Ph.Ds. So I can do a comparison.
Since we are on the subject, there are two surprising things that come to mind: There are quite a few candidates from Iran, specifically in the Canadian IT arena. And they are all quite good. I would put them in the same range as the Indians and Pakistanis, in terms of productivity, i.e. top of the lot of foreigners. For both Irani girls and guys.
I have to guess that the mullahs in Iran seem to have put together a decent system of education. This furthur goes against the mullah is to be blamed for everything theory.
The other trend I will mention, in my next reply, after you explain your undecipherable message........
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#86 Posted by ijaz_gul on June 1, 2004 7:50:29 pm
Romair,
I reached the eye of the storm but you did not respond. Seems you are an expert in higher education. Your comments on this subject would be valuable.
Cheerios
I reached the eye of the storm but you did not respond. Seems you are an expert in higher education. Your comments on this subject would be valuable.
Cheerios
#85 Posted by malik99 on June 1, 2004 7:19:32 pm
DagnyTaggart # 77 - You wrote- ``I think people not being curious enough has more to do with the economics than religion or culture.``
In one sentence you have said it ALL ! Islam or no Islam, it is the economics that drives research.
Consider this:
- there is more likelihood of an american protesting in street about environmental issues than someone in China or India. China and India are not muslim countries. But people in these two countries are more concerned with putting the bread on their table any way possible, and have no time or energy or even ``culture of research`` regarding environmental issues.
- an American child will have more curiosity and inkilings of research about life on Mars than a child in Mexico. Why? Because economic prosperity has provided american child with ample time (he does not have to work to support his family) and freedom from other issues of life to indulge in such studies.
So, the REAL question to be asked is this: is economic prosperity the pre-requisite for giving birth to a ``Culture of Research and Learning`` or is it the other way around. In other words, did the egg come first or the chicken.
In one sentence you have said it ALL ! Islam or no Islam, it is the economics that drives research.
Consider this:
- there is more likelihood of an american protesting in street about environmental issues than someone in China or India. China and India are not muslim countries. But people in these two countries are more concerned with putting the bread on their table any way possible, and have no time or energy or even ``culture of research`` regarding environmental issues.
- an American child will have more curiosity and inkilings of research about life on Mars than a child in Mexico. Why? Because economic prosperity has provided american child with ample time (he does not have to work to support his family) and freedom from other issues of life to indulge in such studies.
So, the REAL question to be asked is this: is economic prosperity the pre-requisite for giving birth to a ``Culture of Research and Learning`` or is it the other way around. In other words, did the egg come first or the chicken.
#84 Posted by Romair on June 1, 2004 6:57:01 pm
NazarHayatKhan #75: I think people go way overboard in blaming the mullah for every problem in Pakistan. It is no different that the people who blame India for everything wrong in Pakistan. Or people who blame Jews for everything wrong in Pakistan. Or people who blame America for everything wrong in Pakistan.
In reality, while all the above have had some impact, I don`t think they are even close to being the main cause of the problems in Pakistan. The mullah has been at the bottom of the Pakistani society for 55 years. How can he be the cause of all the problems?
Mullahs are nothing more than a convenient punching bag to let off steam. Everyone knows that India, USA, Israel, and mullah are not going to go away, hence this outlet will be around forever. It is no different that mullah blaming co-education for everything wrong in society. It is neither here nor there.
If you were to ask me, I would blame my parent`s generation (which includes your generation) for screwing up Pakistan, before I would blame the mullah. All of you were given a decent country with resources. There was good growth in the 60s. Yet your generation screwed it up thoroughly. The mullah has only now come into power, after people have been fed-up with everyone else.
Specifically within the context of this article, how have you concluded that, ``Then sky is the limit for carrying out research on any topic on this earth,`` if TNT is done away with? I think TNT is neither here nor there when it comes to academic research. If every Pakistani approved of it or denounced it, it wouldn`t really make much of a difference, one way or the other.
As an example, Israel has by far the strongest version of TNT in the world. It is many times stronger than Pakistan`s. An Arab Muslim or Christian whose family has lived in a house in Tel-Aviv for centuries, can no longer live in it. However, a Jewish person from Russia, who has never spent a single day in Israel, in his whole life, can make a call to the Israeli embassy, and occupy that same house, with an Israeli citizenship.
Yet Israel is at the forefront of scientific research in the world. Tel-Aviv has the second highest number of scientists per square feet in the world, after San Jose.
India, under the BJP, was for more communal than Pakistan has ever been. However, India was still producing scientists like rabbits produce babies.
Issues like education and research require objective, unemotional thinking and analysis. One cannot let them become a victim of rhetoric. If one is going to blame TNT for lack of research, then how can one stop people from blaming India or Jews for lack of research (or girls in jeans, for that matter). These issues have a place of their own for a separate discussion. But I am not quite sure what is gained by dragging them into every topic and problem of Pakistan.
In fact, one could make a pretty good counter-argument, that the only group of foreign qualified Ph.Ds that are willing to go back to Pakistan to teach, are from the maulvi brigade. I have taught courses in universities in Silicon Valley. I have not seen too many, ``non-maulvi`` qualified Pakistanis volunteering to go back to Pakistan (with or without TNT). The mullah brigade Ph.Ds head back far more than non-mullah Ph.Ds.
This is not to say that TNT and other issues should not be discussed. But when one is discussing oranges, what is gained by brining in apples? I have met more than my share of maulvi graduate students in the USA. They are as good in their fields as the non-maulvi students. They may have other issues, but denouncing research and development isn`t one of them. They get their degrees like the rest of us.
The problems in lack of research and dev. in Pakistan lie somewhere else......And that is what should be discussed. And I seriously doubt they will be solved by denouncing or promoting TNT.
In reality, while all the above have had some impact, I don`t think they are even close to being the main cause of the problems in Pakistan. The mullah has been at the bottom of the Pakistani society for 55 years. How can he be the cause of all the problems?
Mullahs are nothing more than a convenient punching bag to let off steam. Everyone knows that India, USA, Israel, and mullah are not going to go away, hence this outlet will be around forever. It is no different that mullah blaming co-education for everything wrong in society. It is neither here nor there.
If you were to ask me, I would blame my parent`s generation (which includes your generation) for screwing up Pakistan, before I would blame the mullah. All of you were given a decent country with resources. There was good growth in the 60s. Yet your generation screwed it up thoroughly. The mullah has only now come into power, after people have been fed-up with everyone else.
Specifically within the context of this article, how have you concluded that, ``Then sky is the limit for carrying out research on any topic on this earth,`` if TNT is done away with? I think TNT is neither here nor there when it comes to academic research. If every Pakistani approved of it or denounced it, it wouldn`t really make much of a difference, one way or the other.
As an example, Israel has by far the strongest version of TNT in the world. It is many times stronger than Pakistan`s. An Arab Muslim or Christian whose family has lived in a house in Tel-Aviv for centuries, can no longer live in it. However, a Jewish person from Russia, who has never spent a single day in Israel, in his whole life, can make a call to the Israeli embassy, and occupy that same house, with an Israeli citizenship.
Yet Israel is at the forefront of scientific research in the world. Tel-Aviv has the second highest number of scientists per square feet in the world, after San Jose.
India, under the BJP, was for more communal than Pakistan has ever been. However, India was still producing scientists like rabbits produce babies.
Issues like education and research require objective, unemotional thinking and analysis. One cannot let them become a victim of rhetoric. If one is going to blame TNT for lack of research, then how can one stop people from blaming India or Jews for lack of research (or girls in jeans, for that matter). These issues have a place of their own for a separate discussion. But I am not quite sure what is gained by dragging them into every topic and problem of Pakistan.
In fact, one could make a pretty good counter-argument, that the only group of foreign qualified Ph.Ds that are willing to go back to Pakistan to teach, are from the maulvi brigade. I have taught courses in universities in Silicon Valley. I have not seen too many, ``non-maulvi`` qualified Pakistanis volunteering to go back to Pakistan (with or without TNT). The mullah brigade Ph.Ds head back far more than non-mullah Ph.Ds.
This is not to say that TNT and other issues should not be discussed. But when one is discussing oranges, what is gained by brining in apples? I have met more than my share of maulvi graduate students in the USA. They are as good in their fields as the non-maulvi students. They may have other issues, but denouncing research and development isn`t one of them. They get their degrees like the rest of us.
The problems in lack of research and dev. in Pakistan lie somewhere else......And that is what should be discussed. And I seriously doubt they will be solved by denouncing or promoting TNT.
#83 Posted by sadna on June 1, 2004 10:32:27 am
ZahraJ #66
It HAS been a long time :). Hope you notice, one big problem is that the bulls do not read very well.
It HAS been a long time :). Hope you notice, one big problem is that the bulls do not read very well.
#82 Posted by flyhighkites on June 1, 2004 10:32:27 am
Dagny,
Thanks, magar aap mujhay marvayen ge. If I don`t get shot down by those who think I have an agenda this way or that, it`ll be my newly inflated ego that`ll get me.
My delusions of persecution aside - I slightly disagree with what you stated in #69. How can we adapt to what we import if we do not have original research? Perhaps it is better if you differentiate between the kinds of research in terms of technological R&D... primary/secondary, etc. ``Groundbreaking`` remains a vague term.
Actually in certain fields, we can simply adapt and adopt from anywhere in the world. VERY broadly speaking, research involve the human factor (e.g. org behavior, biz, communication) is easy to transfer across borders. Technology, however, is severely limited in its application; it`s very restricted geographically... it has layers of cultural and scientific evolution limited to the experience and demands of a certain type of ppl... and therefore not a great idea to transfer it that too without research.
Esp. in Pakistan - my experience and observation say - that ppl never really match up to an imported technology. Why? first, there is never a change mgmt plan in practice which a recipe for disaster. then ppl aren`t familiar with tech... the society isn`t ready for it as a whole. Most critically, from a business POV, the VALUE CHAIN isn`t ready to absorb the tech. ROI is hardly justified. I`ve been involved with the ``IT revolution`` among other things, and the conclusion is that without knowing where one wants to go, it`s useless to haul in tech/expertise to get there.
I.e. we need a mission (WHERE DO WE WANT TO GO) first, then a strategy (HOW). Research & learning will then best answer HOW TO GET THERE.
Notes:
1. Today is a forced chutti ka din for me, hence I am soooooo NOT LOGGING OFF.
2. Sorry for the crazy posts, have a network prob that prevents me from posting smoothly. It`s just one reason why, b4 i can carry out my argument on a thread, it`s gone from THE TOPIC to THE BORDER. BTW, #68 was AFTER #71,72.
#80 Posted by Ralph on June 1, 2004 10:32:27 am
Why are Muslim countries intellectual deserts and Islamic `literature` nearly as fertile as sand dunes?
We need to understand that intellectual curiousity (of which research is just one part) requires openness. The ability to question self-serving `God-given` platitudes. Courage to break from the crowd. Above all, unshakeable commitment to truth, no matter where the chips may fall.
In Islamic countries these are utterly blasphemous requirements. In these countries, the dominant ideology asserts that the source of all truth is known. The job of all well-meaning researchers is to research backward to explain why what is known is true.
Consequently, as formerly-burger flyhighkites claims, every other line in Muslim scriptures invites Muslims to `think` (so much thinking invariably leads to habitual hyperebole and blatant truth-shading on the part of such thinkers). Yet, all Muslim thinking is ultimately required to reaffirm known hypotheses, at risk of the individual`s or family`s life and limb. The freedom to question basic premises, to research the truth as it is, not as Muslims believe it to be, is an un-Islamic concept. Some individuals may wish to break out of this sandy, lifeless, desert shell, but the society will not let them. That`s the nature of Islam -the primary spirit of Muslim countries. The rest are minor issues.
DagnyTaggart
`I don`t get the sarcasm`.....
My fault, lady. Perhaps we shouldn`t have expected you to get it?
We need to understand that intellectual curiousity (of which research is just one part) requires openness. The ability to question self-serving `God-given` platitudes. Courage to break from the crowd. Above all, unshakeable commitment to truth, no matter where the chips may fall.
In Islamic countries these are utterly blasphemous requirements. In these countries, the dominant ideology asserts that the source of all truth is known. The job of all well-meaning researchers is to research backward to explain why what is known is true.
Consequently, as formerly-burger flyhighkites claims, every other line in Muslim scriptures invites Muslims to `think` (so much thinking invariably leads to habitual hyperebole and blatant truth-shading on the part of such thinkers). Yet, all Muslim thinking is ultimately required to reaffirm known hypotheses, at risk of the individual`s or family`s life and limb. The freedom to question basic premises, to research the truth as it is, not as Muslims believe it to be, is an un-Islamic concept. Some individuals may wish to break out of this sandy, lifeless, desert shell, but the society will not let them. That`s the nature of Islam -the primary spirit of Muslim countries. The rest are minor issues.
DagnyTaggart
`I don`t get the sarcasm`.....
My fault, lady. Perhaps we shouldn`t have expected you to get it?
#79 Posted by ZahraJ on June 1, 2004 10:32:27 am
Flyhighkites: Please avoid addressing me in your future discourses. Probably, you should start flying low since the height is impacting your well being.
#77 Posted by DagnyTaggart on June 1, 2004 10:31:15 am
I think people not being curious enough has more to do with the economics than religion or culture.
#76 Posted by Urstruly on June 1, 2004 10:29:18 am
``Jay, Sadna, Arjun_m & ZaraJ``
laholwila quwat. Nazar Sahib bhang te hath hola rakho
#75 Posted by nazarhayatkhan on June 1, 2004 4:42:03 am
While Murtaza set out the noble goal & FINAL DESTINATION,
Jay, Sadna, Arjun_m & ZaraJ very rightly pointed out the main hurdle. They may sound rough but they call a spade a spade.
How many of us are bold enough to stand up on a Forum and say that TWO-NATION-THEORY is no more valid. It is now ONE nation of Pakistan based on its Geography and History.
Meanwhile, the full-throated Mulla keeps sermonizing on loud speakers day in day out - Islam, Islam, Islam - Pakistan was created in the name of Islam. And his theory is fully agreed by the Faujis & the Muslim Leagures - the Majority in Assembly. The only people who differ are the PPP wallas, MQM and the smaller national parties.
Unlike Jay, Sadna, Arjun-M & ZaraJ, we are not bold enough to stand up & be blunt.
Meanwhile, our Constitution becomes subservient to Quran & Sunnah - Democracy is killed. Universities can not even open Departments of Music and Performiong Arts.
The full-throated Mulla keeps on saying that Quran contains everything. There is no other guidance is required.
Cutting the long story short, we need to openly state that the Two-Nation-Theory is no more valid. Every citizen has equal rights. Everyone to his own belief. Everything else will fall into its own place automatically.
Then sky is the limit for carrying out research on any topic on this earth.
(Remember, Ijtihad or Research has been banned in Islam since the last few hundred years)
#74 Posted by flyhighkites on June 1, 2004 4:32:19 am
Sadna, Ralph, ZahraJ - the ``off-track`` comments on this discussion thread are in the unplugged area, off-the-wall, same heading.
MurtazaH, there is little that I can add given that many interactors incl. Malik, HP, ballu, sadna, sridhar, and others have pretty much covered the issues. Briefly, these are my thoughts:
1. Curiosity is not nurtured in our environment. Why not? Ballu`s/HP`s answer explains most of it. I feel that it is the ``Chosen One`` attitude - the feeling that we`re already there - fatalistic notions - that are to blame.
2. But that`s not the only thing. Let me throw in a curve - I also feel that there is a general lack of ``energy`` in people. The lethargic attitude... the will to do nothing, and no will to do anything. Is lifestyle to be blamed?
3. Pandora`s Box: It is amazing where this curiosity-killing comes from as far as Muslims are concerned. Isn`t the every other line in Muslim scriptures an invitation to ``think?`` And to observe? I would recommend that as a charter of any research-driven university!
Life is fairly like a movie with a certain ending, or at least one that is certain to end. Still, we read books through and through, and watch every other predictable movie. Why can`t life be lived as a curious person who pokes around and explores... why does it just slip us away? I am thinking aloud here, though there are many private conclusions that I have reached. More later, duty calls!
MurtazaH, there is little that I can add given that many interactors incl. Malik, HP, ballu, sadna, sridhar, and others have pretty much covered the issues. Briefly, these are my thoughts:
1. Curiosity is not nurtured in our environment. Why not? Ballu`s/HP`s answer explains most of it. I feel that it is the ``Chosen One`` attitude - the feeling that we`re already there - fatalistic notions - that are to blame.
2. But that`s not the only thing. Let me throw in a curve - I also feel that there is a general lack of ``energy`` in people. The lethargic attitude... the will to do nothing, and no will to do anything. Is lifestyle to be blamed?
3. Pandora`s Box: It is amazing where this curiosity-killing comes from as far as Muslims are concerned. Isn`t the every other line in Muslim scriptures an invitation to ``think?`` And to observe? I would recommend that as a charter of any research-driven university!
Life is fairly like a movie with a certain ending, or at least one that is certain to end. Still, we read books through and through, and watch every other predictable movie. Why can`t life be lived as a curious person who pokes around and explores... why does it just slip us away? I am thinking aloud here, though there are many private conclusions that I have reached. More later, duty calls!
#73 Posted by omar_r_quraishi on June 1, 2004 4:32:19 am
sadna plz stop quoting stuff from asia times -- thats like quoting fox news by the way -- ijaz sahib telling someone to get a life is not abusing them -- its actually helping them out by giving them some good advice, esp if u consider who its for -- zingari , man you`re absolutely right, tho im not sure zahraJ even got the Uncle Tom reference --
#72 Posted by DagnyTaggart on June 1, 2004 4:32:19 am
flyhighkites,
You are one of the coolest and smartest people on this site. Thank you for having the courage to state the obvious and for talking some sense to the cyber warriors. Let me just say that the point scoring that goes on between indians and pakistanis on this site is totally disgusting. Let me also say that lately I have seen more indians than pakistanis indulge in such kind of behaviour (although I have to admit that both sides have bad apples in equal measure) Each and every article that appears on chowk eventually degenerates into a bashfest between india and pakistan.
The chowk`s tagline says ``Ideas and identities of Pakistan`` but to me it seems more like ``Gali and Galuch of subcontinental filth`` I dont want to appear sanctimonious, nor do I want to hijack this thoughtful article, but chowk need to put stop to this mindless chatter or else it will become another Paknews type site. Please lets try to have a DIALOGUE on this site instead of a shouting match. Thanks.
pmishra, arjum_m, ralph et al: Although I fail to ``get`` the sarcasm intended in pmishra`s post, I agree that sometimes sarcasm is the best way to make your point. However, it does not help when directed randomly and intended mainly as a flame bait.
Getting off the soapbox now :)
You are one of the coolest and smartest people on this site. Thank you for having the courage to state the obvious and for talking some sense to the cyber warriors. Let me just say that the point scoring that goes on between indians and pakistanis on this site is totally disgusting. Let me also say that lately I have seen more indians than pakistanis indulge in such kind of behaviour (although I have to admit that both sides have bad apples in equal measure) Each and every article that appears on chowk eventually degenerates into a bashfest between india and pakistan.
The chowk`s tagline says ``Ideas and identities of Pakistan`` but to me it seems more like ``Gali and Galuch of subcontinental filth`` I dont want to appear sanctimonious, nor do I want to hijack this thoughtful article, but chowk need to put stop to this mindless chatter or else it will become another Paknews type site. Please lets try to have a DIALOGUE on this site instead of a shouting match. Thanks.
pmishra, arjum_m, ralph et al: Although I fail to ``get`` the sarcasm intended in pmishra`s post, I agree that sometimes sarcasm is the best way to make your point. However, it does not help when directed randomly and intended mainly as a flame bait.
Getting off the soapbox now :)
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