The Culture of Research and Learning

43 by ZahraJ on May 30, 2004 10:13pm PT

Why the Cultural Values of the Sub-Continent are mainly respnosible for the lack of successful Scientific Research Programs:

For a society that has drawn the limits to theory construction by calling free thinking names such as Bidda, paradigm shift is the first casuality. It is my view that only those persons who are not mired in the certainity of their standing in the universe can actually construct innovative hypothesis- on the other hand , societies with strong theological groundings and equally strongly socialized individuals can never come up with a research programme that can be deemed innovative and shift the paradigm. Only communities with strong hermeneutical tradition in its theology (as in christian west) we can find innovative world views which re-defines the perspective of its budding scientists and hypothesis creators. In other words, only where the theology is uncertain and open to interpretations can we have a `culture` where the scientific theorizing can be `innovative`. That is why the brown bum in the sub-continent can never run a successful research program within his society.

Mere funds do not make or break a genuine scientific research programme. The foremost thing required is the `cultural` value of uncertainity in one`s position viz a viz the nature and the world around us. When this desire is extinguished by wholly accepting the revelations from the books then you find guys like Naqshabandi finding it meaningless to carry on their PHD program. ``Certainty`` is the killer of this crucial hypothesis building activity within the scientific community- how can you work out new scheme of things in case the `TRUTH` is already revealed to you. I bet, you try to run a scientific institute with millions of dollars worth of funds with guys like Naqshabandi and UrsTruly around- you would NEVER succeed. That is why mere Funds do not alone make or break a successful scientific program.


Philanthropy again reflects the cultural value- the Saudi Trusts or the Jehadi Funds could have been pumped into the institutes of higher scientific learning- But Why Not? Why do they have scholarships for subjects in which you have to just quote Islamic theology (Islamic Chemistry, Islamic Nuclear Physics et.). Can they not invest in JUST `Pure Physics`- Can they? No, because these people do not share this cultural value of scientific programs running without the crutches of theology. So it is not mere Philanthropy that contributes to the scientific program- you need more on the cultural aspect of it.

Sadna,

In kerala there was a QIP, quality improvement program for engineering lecturers where they attaended summer schools at IITs for three years and then were given paid study leaves to get PHds. Then as you say, many have gone and worked in the middle east for 5 years and came back with loads of money.

For pakistan it is not a question of lack of ideas, it is simply a case of no one thinks education is important. Pakistan will be the only country where the generals are given a mercedes, and that is really disproportionate with what they do and the social norms.

The tragedy is that no one ven the tahmeds and YLHs do not dare to mention the perks of the military. It is a society where it is a curriculum requirement to collect photos of military men and shaheeds ahile no one even the pathetic editor of dawn, omar quraishi does no dare to write about abdus salam.

There is no social value in pakistan that admires scholarship, it is only the islamic scholarship that people care. A million people at Madreke, that tells something about the tahmeds and omars.

need to bash

Pakistan is a failed state. Jihadis operating with out any govt control can occupy border posts and take on the indian army. There are areas of pakistan where no paki soldier dares to go.
Pak govt bans an organisation and they put up a new board and start operating as though nothing happened.

There is no point in talking peace or for that matter anything with the pak govt. Even the yanks have started bombing pakistan.

This leaves the world with only one option of bashing any pakistani where ever one finds them, on which ever board. There is need to address the actions at individual pakistanis, since pakistan is a failed state.

pmishra, Ralph, ankit, mohar11, Jay, arjun_m and sadna are the vanguard of the great civilization that will one day succeed in their noble efforts to make Pakistanis behave like human beings out of fraternal love in the garb of `ahimsa permo dharma`. ZahraJ is the
only intelligent Pakistani who understands their goodwill and to some extent Uncle Tom of Chowk.

flyhighkites

Being civil and in love with one another is important but not as important as identifying, raising, and discussing real issues.

Murtaza Haider argued that:

1. Research and learning are important.
2. Research and learning need private sector and government support.
3. A few hundred households can get the R&L ball rolling by making donations.

PMishra wrote back that none of this was possible so long as a society remained focused on establishing Islamic supremacy, carrying on jehad, grabbing Kashmir, and crying for Palestinians.


What did you find irrelevant or offensive in this argument? If it`s just the tone, then that`s a sign of hypersensitivity and lack of confidence.

#52 by ballukhan

You are certainly right to put the onus on the theocratic bent of the society in the lack of research programs. This is limited and narrow but cogent argument. In Pakistan, though, religious bigotry is the supreme motivation to suppress the research in areas that may challenge the religion, but what has contributed more is the reluctance of the ruling class or the elite to promote “thinking” or rather “critical thinking” in the basic, mid level, and higher educational institutions. Sure enough, they draw their strength from the Islamic Ideology or Pakistan Ideology or “Nazaria-e-Pakistan” etc. But their reluctance to support R & D is mainly a reflection of their thought that any support of critical thinking or research in the areas of different arts and sciences, helps to create a level of intellectualism in the society that would provide the intellectual fodder to their opposition forces in the society.

This thought process is closer to fascist thinking that allowed for research in areas that helped the fascism but destroyed any other institutions that may oppose the fascism at some point in time.

Once you deprive a population to learn how to question, you have already destroyed the inquisitiveness in the young fellows to find a better solution thru research rather than following the run of the mill or the officially approved solution.

This pseudo-piety is disgusting.

1.All you have to do is look at responses to Indian articles on Indian issues and see what sort of disruptions Pakistanis always create. I personally remember being abused on multiple occasions by Pakistani interactors for posting my POV on Indian issues. However anyone has a right to hold an opinion on anything so that is their call not mine.

2. Inspite of disruptions, it is STILL possible to discuss what you wish to, but a requirement is, that instead of typing long posts preaching piously to other interactors, you actually have to WRITE ABOUT THE TOPIC.

Hypocrites.

ballukhan#52:

Good post & Valid Reasonings.

[Why the Cultural Values of the Sub-Continent are mainly respnosible for the lack of successful Scientific Research Programs:]

Personally, I have very little respect for the culture and any traditions it offers therefore I would be the last person to envision the said culture producing any positive results. Period.
Thanks for highlighting the harsh realities and describing the lay of the land. I would add a few things...To me both culture and belief are not the same. They are two completely different animals.

[For a society that has drawn the limits to theory construction by calling free thinking names .................. That is why the brown bum in the sub-continent can never run a successful research program within his society.]

I agree with you that ``innovation`` requires a different mindset and outlook towards life. But I would add that each budding scientist was and is not an atheist. True, often times they are open enough to let ``interpretation`` kick in when needed to. Bother culture and belief are two completely different thought process to me. The former should be discarded without a second thought since that has very little contribution for further development of human mind. The latter should be definitely preserved for ones emotional well being and balancing out the highs and lows. The above are very personal perspectives and cannot be generalized for all and sundry.

[Mere funds do not make or break a genuine scientific research programme. ..That is why mere Funds do not alone make or break a successful scientific program.]

I agree with your gist. As far as filling up the already filled glass is concerned, you are right on the mark!

[Philanthropy again reflects the cultural value- ........... Can they not invest in JUST `Pure Physics`- Can they?]

Excellent Point. No arguments!!!

[So it is not mere Philanthropy that contributes to the scientific program- you need more on the cultural aspect of it.]

I am sure the writer would make a good note of your above argument. Since it adds another dimension to his findings. And, this article ought to entertain other dimensions if it truly believes in what its presenting.

I would come back and reiterate my point that education by itself is nothing. Ironically, Pakistani Society in general does not have the right base for research and learning. They are certainly an excellent base for Sarsoan Kaa Saag and Makai Kii Roti.

Ijaz_gul #42: Don`t know Fawad Rauf. But would it be Hamdard University?

One word: patronage.

It`s not a matter of culture. It`s about the establishment of a scientific sub-culture, which has little or nothing to do with the culture of the masses. It is tremendously difficult to get the ball rolling when there has been so much neglect, however it is not a matter of elementary education (which is an absolute joke in the West - real education begins on the first day of University).

Nor is it a matter of theology (hermeneutics is the process of interpretations of an existing body of work...not in the least bit related to any Scientific process I`m familiar with). Very convienent to blame society at large, or aspects of it (particularly those you hate).

With patronage it’s a chicken and egg situation. No one is interested until a scientific community emerges. Yet, such a community can`t appear without the patronage. The solution requires some sort of seeding, however such seeds don`t come cheap.

Insofar as objections from various quarters of societies, blatant nonsense. Although initially the scientific community will receive no support from the community at large, it will by the same token face no barriers. No more excuses, and no more theories proclaiming the intractability of the situation to cop out of a problem with obvious solutions which require non-trivial amounts of effort (what a paki trait!). These have no credibility.

#55: The piety filled sermon had a lot of emphasis on ``thoughtfulness.``
How could you miss that ? :)

I have a Masters in Statistics. I always wished that I be able to explain main concepts in Probability and Statistics to my mother. She recently died leaving in me the regret that I could not explain her about what I have learned at college.

Learners of advanced topics will always be elite group. But when you are so elite that you have to learn in a foreign language and not being able to explain in local language even the most elementary concepts in your field then you are totally alienated from mainstream population. No matter how much money you spend on education programs this problem of alienation will not go away. Popularizing works on advanced topics written in local languages is a must for kindling interest in mainstream population before they take interest in advanced topics and support education. Also a link between science and improvement of life should be palpably obvious to common people. Not like ``woh bahut padhega, umreeka jayega aur bahut dollar kamaayega``. But like ``woh wheat ki production rate badhayega`` etc etc. People do see link between better physicians and surviving diseases, but not in any tangible way the link between mathematics and improvement of life.

Any large scale expansion of higher learning is bound to create large number of learned people who have to employ in jobs beneath their skill level. Like ZahraJ said you have to have enough avenues to utilize your energies after you learned some advanced topic. Recently I met a Math PhD. Her PhD topic was in Graph Theory and Combinatorics. She was looking for a Post-Doc Schol in US. Only because of Govt support such work can be done. It is difficult to see how Graph Theory could be used to improve life of povertized Indian millions. I myself am looking to enter academics again. I am fed up working as a ``code coolie``. Only reason I am considering this is because I might be able to work on and off campus and still maintain my former lifestyle. Could I have done that in India? No. In US and other western countries it is possible. This is made possible by surplus. When you produce more than you spend then only you can have surplus. Otherwise Pakistan also will end up becoming YAI (=yet another India). Why would anyone want to become YAI?

But other theory is trickle down theory. You just educate left and right and as number of graduates increase so will their desire to draw local people into their joy of learning and apply it to practical fields and automatically life improvement and appreciation of learning follows. I think so such theory is not correct. Trickle down does not work. A whole lot of facilitating mechanisms need to be foisted upon society. Educate people. Find them jobs. Have big technological programs funded by state. Build steel mills. Have agricultural universities. Have centers of excellence (funded by state) for improving life, farming etc etc. Have state funded publishing for quality literature both in English as well as local languages. etc etc.

Skoll is NOT a co-founder of ebay.
Europeans don`t work 24/7. Ive been to france & germany. Everyone quits friday afternoon.

Omar Sahib,
Chowk is a site to share views and not abusive language. A dignified person always stands tall. That`s the end of communications with you.
cheerios

This is for information of hate brigade.

Six months on, ceasefire holds true
Josy Joseph in New Delhi | May 31, 2004 15:41 IST
Last Updated: May 31, 2004 15:42 IST
The ceasefire along the border with Pakistan is six months old and Indian intelligence agencies are taking stock of the situation.
The agencies admit that the ceasefire, which started on November 26, 2003, has proved beneficial.
``It has been a great success by any measure. The gains are immense and we are still trying to figure out how to firm up the ceasefire as a permanent measure,`` says an army general.

The ceasefire came into existence along the 740km Line of Control, the 110km Line of Actual Ground Position in Siachen and the small portion of the International Border in Jammu region after Pakistan made a unilateral offer and India reciprocated.

jay #51
Jay you need to take a look at Hindi-belt governments to understand what is disrespect for education, science and research. The funny thing is there the so-called enlightened elites are powerless to change things.