The Culture of Research and Learning

Murtaza, What you have pointed out is indeed a dire need of Pakistan. Unfortunately,niether the government has the requisite funds, nor enough social capital is diverted to this field. How can we break this logjam

The corporate sector in Pakistan has yet to deveopl the this to support education. Their flagships like LUMS and GIK are already sinking. While our engineering students are still making fire extinghuishers as projects, students in USA are making hi tech equipment.

The college that I run has an exclusive Research and Development Department for both undergraduate and post graduate students. We began it with the misunderstanding that we would be able to make linkages with the corporate world and industry. As it has turned out, they see us as beggars. So we end up creating man machine interfaces and artificial intelligence which cannot be utilised. We are also strapped for funds.

So waht do we do?

Please don;t bother with all these complicated things. They will be hard for you to understand. It is better if you remain focussed on the following:

(1) Kashmir cause, and the need to fund jihadis that kill indian women, children and goverment officials.

(2) solidarity with palestinians who blow up buses full of israeli children

(3) ranting about natural superiority of islam and its great future.

pmishra2,

Or the following:

a) Indian soldiers who kill fellow Indian women, children and potlical dissenters (TREASON ALERT!)
b) Soldiarity with Israel, which blow up and raze neighborhoods full of, you guessed it, children.
c) Ranting about Islam....just because...

by the way eds -- this article was published in dawn many weeks ago, on its weekly education page -- the writer should have mentioned it

Good article on an important topic.

However,


ijaz_gul # 1

``I run a college!!``

The situation seems critical indeed.

[It is imperative to understand that the culture of research and learning also promotes the tradition of philanthropy. The patronage of academia and arts by individuals and firms has resulted in benevolent partnerships. ]

Excellent Point.

pmishra`s sarcasm is in a way appropriate here.

Murtaza Sahib - Excellent article ! While this a good effort in formulating in words a problem we all know exists, I was hoping to hear some suggestions from you. The question that come to mind regarding the sorry state of R&D in Pakistan are these:

- is the non-existent R&D ONLY because of the lack of funding? I am of the opinion that the `culture of learning and research` seriously lags in Pakistan even at the levels where the funding is available. The minds who should grow up to form R&D instituitions, go through a school curriculum in their formative years which is not conducive to developing any constructive ``thinking``.

- Is indulgence in R&D a result of love and care for the society you live in? (as you suggest). I tend to think that indulgence in R&D is a matter of economics. You cannot get involved in R&D for the sake of R&D. R&D should result in the creation of goods and products which the society benefits from. If there is no market for these products, there would be less incentive for anyone to spend any money on R&D.

I am not sure whether it makes any sense to compare research in North America to anything going on in Pakistan. They are in two different leagues. Comparisons should be made with countries like Iran, etc. Hence this article just points to the obvious, i.e. North America is way ahead of Pakistan. What is more important is to highlight how to improve research in Pakistan, keeping in mind the financial and political limitations.

In fact, one cannot even compare Canada and USA. USA is in a different league. Having now worked in both places, and recruited from universities in Canada, I have to say, that at least in IT, very little of Canada`s cream stays in Canada. It all goes to the USA. I worked with more top level technical Canadian talent in the USA, than I have in Canada.

Invariably, all the top technical talent (chief architects, lead engineers etc.) that we have ended up hiring on projects here are from places like China, India, Pakistan, Iran, Russia etc. Not Canada born Canadians. I am, in fact, quite disappointed in the talent pool out of Canada`s top universities in this area, that remains in Canada. They are nowhere near the stuff that comes out of the MITs and Stanfords.

The only reason Canada`s IT industry is running is because of the Chinese immigrants, who fill in the technical positions. Top level executive talent in IT here is very poor, since immigrants cannot fill those positions. Phenomenally poor. I have met quite a few CIOs and VPs, in the IT industry here, and very few of them here know what the hell they are doing. Many are completely clueless (the ones from India or Pakistan etc. are quite good, though). While in the USA, those positions, are manned (and wommaned) by very talented people.

The point about the universities being good is correct. McGill, U of T, Waterloo etc. are definitely good universities. As good as the good one in the USA. But, at least in IT, their contribution to the Canadian industry isn`t even close to what it should be, in term of human resources. Skoll being a good example. Why didn`t he he build Ebay in Canada?

Canada has done well in networking with Nortel and JDS Uniphase (which I believe is now in USA). But in software, its biggest company is Cognos, which could be swallowed by Ebay, easily.

As far as Pakistan is concerned, it needs to invest heavily in universities. The main shortage is of skilled faculty. U of T has over 80 Ph.Ds. in their IT faculty. While Pakistan probably doesn`t have 80 Ph.Ds in IT in the whole country. They will only come back from abroad, if you give them a lot of money. Which universities like LUMS do. But few others, do. If PIA pilots can be paid lakhs and lakhs of ruppees, with huge amount of facilities, then why can`t Ph.Ds. in computer science be given the same packages?

Much of the creation of Silicon Valley can be attributed to the location of Stanford and Berkeley in the area. Those universities have paid back hundreds of times the money invested in them........Two or three more NUSTs, and LUMS would serve Pakistan well.....After that people may start donating things to the universities, and a trend may start...

Anyways, an article with good intentions. But I don`t know if it presents any valuable solutions.........

pmishra man you`re prob hell`s biggest loser -- get a life moron

umermutraza -- yaar chor -- yeh sala bhot bara loser hai -- he already made quite a fool of himself by his irrelevant and silly post -- zahra mind telling us how this guys sarcasm is `appropriate` here

I would actually want the author to answer the question raised by #1 ijaz_gul.

I feel there are basically two problems.

a. The problems mentioned of funding, on a sustainable basis, can only be solved through state intervention- responsible patronage and support. History has proved it for us- world`s best academies and R&D institutes have been rooted in state support and patronage, period. Let`s stop trying to reinvent the wheel. If you have a NGO-like approach to education, you end up like- as #1 pointed out- beggars.

b. The other problem, that I feel is much more grave. For those of you who still haven`t read Mr. Hoodbhoy`s excellent article ``Why didn`t the Scientific Revolution Happen in Islam``, in a word here lies the problem: attitude. Until our society has `utilitarian` attitude towards academics, all that it will produce is coaching centers and not Universities or R&D.

{A few hundred households can pool resources to set-up one hundred research chairs at local universities while respective governments can offer incentives by modifying the tax code.}

If you think people will pool in for universities or r&d, think again, think better...

Regards
Bilal

P.S. Hoodbhoy`s article can be found at: http://chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00000104&channel=university%20ave&start=0&end=9&page=1&chapter=1

pmishra

you hit where it hurts pakistanis the most.

haha.. jalne ke baad ka smoke to dekho...!!

O GOD! i am rolling.

UmerM: You can certainly add a lot to the current topic, ``The Culture of Research & Learning.`` You`d be an excellent candidate to speak on ``Civil Behavior.``

[Universities in the developing countries are in dire need of support from the society. Likewise, researchers need the “support of a society and culture that values education.”]

I agree with the premise of your argument, but somehow I disagree with the direction it may end up taking. Just valuing education is not enough. In my opinion, it`s completely useless if you do not have enough avenues to utilize your energies. Also, your suggestions at the end are quite constructive but they are based on a few assumptions. Those unspelled out assumptions are real important for the creation of a tradition-free, healthy, progressive and civil society.

[The government plays an important role in promoting philanthropy by offering tax exemptions to individuals and firms, who donate resources to public causes. These incentives have promoted the tradition of philanthropy. For instance, by donating a database for research, a private firm can claim tax exemption for the fair market value of its donation. ]

In order to reach up to that level, the government ought to be stable, civil, farsighted and healthy.

Omar and Umer

You guys may throw sissy fits at what PMishra wrote. Your sense of outrage is understandable. But here`s the rub. Pakistani leaders and intellectuals will continue to focus not on research and education but on the issues PMishra identified.

If you worked to change that focus with as much vehemence as you displayed in your replies to PMishra, Pakistan herself may create a few McGills. Now THAT will be a real response to people like PMishra and me.

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pmishra2

You seem to have hit pakis where its hurts the most. :) :) Look at this Umer Murkhaza guy - he is going bananas - like a chimp on steroids.

Disgusting. when you bark with dogs, you become a dog too.
Cheerios

re: this article
There is no doubt that western civilization leads the world by research. Research produces innovations and patents which are carefully safeguarded. This is one way West shows its monopoly over the rest of the world.
I did my fellowship from an University whose annual NIH grant amounted to more than 300 million dollars! I am just talking of one university here.
While India and Pak cannot hope to catch up with the west for a long time to come, they can start research into areas that are of vital interest to them.
For eg why is there no research into newer ways of combating malaria, TB? Why no research into newer and better ways of population control? I used to hear of some research into a male fertility vaccine by AIIMS, Delhi sometime in the past but this seems to have fizzled out.
I just learned the news that India has test flown an indegenously built Light aircraft called saras. One wonders why this is so important. Indians need research into areas like Agriculture (better ways of harvesting, arid farming etc), water conservation, Infection control etc.
Indiscriminate use of antibiotics in Madras (even 15 years ago when i was an MD student there) had resulted in resistance to commonly used antibiotics like Chloramphenicol for typhoid. This is tragic. Research into newer antibiotics is costly and is monopolised by the west. After the WTO agreement, both India and Pak will have to pay a price soon for taking patents for granted.
Research in South Asia should be geared to the population needs, given the limited resources. One can make a beginning by fostering peace and diverting scant resources away from miltary use and towards the needs of the community. This is a big task.
Really speaking, both India and Pak are in the same league and are nowhere near the competence of the West in research.
Sridhar

Here is yet another irrelevant trash on chowk. It would have been helpful if any one has pointed out that generals in the pak military are given a Mercedes 550, and is consistant with the values of pakistan. The military also supporot the nadrassas consistant with the creation values of pakistan.
It ois pathetic to see pakistanis going on a tangent on institutions of other countries with out caring to admitt the reality of pakistan.

Murtaza,

Your article raises some valid points. I guess, comparing campuses or grants with the North American giants seems rather unrealistic. We also can not forget the financial and ever-unstable political situation of our country.

I recall reading a concerned article or two by Professor Pervez Hoodbhoy regarding the situation faced by our Academic Institutions and the lack of proper teaching staff. Some effort by the current government has been made through `Foreign Faculty Hiring Program`
http://www.hec.gov.pk/hec2/htmls/faculty.htm
Though this might seem a step in the right direction, I`m not sure, how well these packages would appeal to foreign faculty. They probably have better research opportunities, wherever they are. Plus, they can rely on the government not changing and the new government not revoking their contracts.

Your concerns regarding funding for research & development aren`t ill-founded. I believe we as a nation need to prioritize education on all levels, instead of increasing the defence budget among other things. Unfortunately, I agree with malik99`s realistic perspective on R&D being a matter of economics.

ijaz_gul #1: ``The college that I run has an exclusive Research and Development Department for both undergraduate and post graduate students.``

Which college do you run? And what is the field of R&D that it concentrates on...

I think Pakistan`s main problem is faculty retention and attraction. The students are there, the buildings are there, or can be built. But where will the faculty come from? Actually the Pakistani faculty is there also, but it is all abroad. The govt. needs to figure out how to get these people back.

The answer is economics. Money. You have to pay them what they are worth in the international market. LUMS pays salaries in the lakhs of ruppees, with all kinds of facilities. So it has faculty. Other institutions have to do the same.

Medical colleges in Pakistan seem to have a lot of well-qualified faculty. Even though setting up medical colleges is far far more difficult than setting up, say, an IT university. However, (I think) medical college faculties make a lot of money in private practice as doctors. And there stature as a professor helps their business. Hence a lot of highly qualified faculty there. I know a lot of surgeons and highly qualified doctors in Pakistan. I hardly know an CS Ph.Ds who live in Pakistan.

Once the faculty is there, then, Ph.D. programs need to be started locally. Once enough Ph.Ds have graduated locally, the faculty requirements will go down, since while many of the local Ph.Ds. will go abroad, but many will stay also. Like what happens in India.

For starters, I think maybe it is a good idea to concentrate on the wealthy. This may sound odd. But that is where the money is. I read somewhere that Pakistan sends the 9th or so highest number of students to the USA for degrees. These students and their families send millions of dollars of foreign exchange into foreign universities and economies. If there were enough LUMS type institutions in Pakistan, regardless of how much they charged as fees, at least the money would stay in Pakistan. And they would recruit more professors and do more research locally. Granted it would only be available to the rich Pakistanis, but still, it is better than sending it all abroad.

Once those rich kids graduate and do local Ph.Ds. they would get involved in the local ecnonomy (many would go abroad also), and would link it up with local universities. Much like rich kids who graduate from Stanford do. At the very least, just the fees they spend locally, would allow local private universities to grow.

The second step is to find the highest paying govt. job in Pakistan, and link the benefits of Ph.D professors with that job. To the best of my knowledge, the most looked after govt. servant in Pakistan is the captain of a 747 in PIA. He lives like a king. If the govt. can pay him so much, with awesome facilities, obviously it has some money. This is despite the fact that PIA has been running in a loss for ages (till this year).

If the govt. can pay its airline pilots so much, it can do so for well-qualified university professors, also. After all, having some experience in both areas, it is much more difficult to be a researcher than to be a pilot........

Dear Murtaza,



Thank you for a good read. It was thought provoking.



Pmishra,



Expletives deleted.



Umer M.

Ref: Romair & by now his standard mantra

I have always wondered what is wrong with this person who not-so-seldom submit rather good quality posts. Because, there must be some good reasons for most, if not all of his answers revolve around salaries.

Finally, I have got the answer. Here comes my expert psychoanalysis.

Romair is basically not as an idiot as many people over here seem to believe. On the contrary, I would assert, he is quite a good person at heart but suffers of severe guilty consciousness. And in order to soothe his spiritual qualms he keeps on chanting his classical mantra of poor salaries in the forces on one hand and his enormous success in the Silicon Valley on the other.

Let me elaborate by first explaining the background.

He joined PAF after his matriculation at the age of 16-17. Pakistan, despite being one of the poorest countries on the face of earth provided him every conceivable facility and luxury. Imagine, at the age of 16-17 when millions of his age fellows were roaming around without any prospect for future he was given 400 – 500 PRs as pocket money (to start with in early 80s) … yeah only to study. Not only that he was provided with free mess, world-class education, very decent sports facilities, extremely good medical care – all gratis, and batman when he was just a shitty cadet. Even every sort of complete clothing sets (from uniform, sportswear, mufti to shalwar kameez) was given to him without charging him and his family a penny. On top of all this, guaranteed job after graduation with not-so-bad packet of perks and privileges.

Gradually, he graduated with a degree in avionics. Then, one day he “realised” that oh, see [very few] people in the civil with compatible academic qualifications are getting more than what he received at the end of month. Which might not be full truth – that’s another story. He started panga-bazi, got released from the forces, moved to the US. With some luck succeeded in making a few bucks.

Now, he knows very well that there are not many very plausible justifications for his code of conduct. He knows very well that he got everything possible, rather much more than what it affords, out of that poor country and left it the very moment he got a better chance. He feels guilty. Possibly very guilty. Somewhere deep inside him someone keeps on reminding him that Mr, aapis kee baat hai, you are a selfish $ucker.

He needs something to get rid of those disturbing thoughts. Some alibis. To do that he keeps on chanting that military officers are not well paid. Their civilian counterparts are better off. He is a super genius – his enormous successes are a proof that Pakistan was too small, too backward for him. Though most of his replies and comments [try to] derive authority by the virtue of his past in the forces. A decade that PAF served him (yes PAF served him) is by all likelihood the cornerstone for all of his grossly inflated achievements.

Take his whining out and think for a while what reasons there are for his betrayal. Keep in mind he joined PAF well aware of their salary packages. He exploited it in every imaginable manner. Left it the very day he could stand on his feet. He never takes into consideration the amount, the efforts, put in and zalalat endured by civilians from Matric (Secondary School) to graduation – normally 7 – 9 years at least -- and then finding some decent job.

Even if there were exactly same salaries, using romair’s formulas, I bet he would have been saying now: until and unless Pakistanis don’t get same amount of money in Pakistan what they can easily get in Saudi Arabia or Northern America or Somalia, they will keep on leaving the country?

I remember watching an American film, where to a general, betrayal was a far worse crime than a rape. So friends, it is romair’s betrayal that makes him keep on submitting all that nonsense. If he doesn’t do that, he has to admit that he is a namak-haram a$$hole. Not an easy job to confess, I guess. Right!?
Everyone is fully and legitimately entitled to social, economic and intellectual promotion. I definitely don’t want to deny him that fundamental right. This note is only meant to offer him a different set of lenses.

To be noted I post this analysis of mine only in response to recycling of romair’s trademark bakwas – not when he sticks to the point. There is no other way to keep him on track.

article


I think some of the statistics of this article, are misleading and out of date. Because education budgets are responsibility of provinces, according to my information Pakistan allocates nearly 2% of GNP to education, with GNP of nearly 100 billion dollars according to my reckoning that’s nearly 2 billion for education.

Post # 12:

An appropriate post routed towards completely inappropriate people.

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UM: While Pmishra was being a bit naughty here, I dont think your nasty reaction was called for. I think you owe him an apology.

Dear Murtaza,

I apologise for my rant. As stated before, your article was genuinely good and thought provoking. This is of course the reason that when a good work and good dialogue is disturbed by a head-shaking, lentil sucking, bride burning idli dosa from Gondwanaland where everyone is oh sooo happy-happy joy joy and where tigers, elephants and cows live side by side with humans, I sometimes lose my rag. But this behaviour is often exhibited by them. Of course, I have not been helpful and will refrain myself from now, lest the further spoilage of a good work by nutters such as myself.


Dear Chowk-staff

Either I`m sleep typing or that post 23 was written by someone else. IT IS NOT ME. I repeat, I HAVE NOT WRITTEN THAT POST! Please see to it. Thank you.


T23,

With an exception to Murtaza, I do not owe anyone anything, least of all dogs like Pmishra who I would rather see being hung or something. I mean, really, people like him don`t deserve to live. There are only so many resources and his kind should do us all a favour and undergo a voluntary mass extinction. And as for his dog pound, I couldn`t give a flying monkey as to what they think.

But I am truly disgusted at your behaviour. Mishra was `naughty` and I`m `uncalled` for. I wonder how you worked that out. I hope you realise that mine was a retaliation. His was a flatualance. Please don`t reply. As I`ve stated before to Murtaza, it`d be a good idea not to further spoil his work.

Umer M.

re:#31 by UmerMurtaza
``I mean, really, people like him don`t deserve to live.``
So, on the basis of a single post, u are going to decide who lives and who does not! What else do they teach you in your madrassas, dude?
Sridhar

re:#31 by UmerMurtaza
When u have nothing else to say, you revert to name calling. Is this a Paki mentality?
Why don`t u respond logically to some of the questions posed by Jay and others? Some of their questions are legitimate.
Sridhar

#31

``head-shaking, lentil sucking, bride burning idli dosa from Gondwanaland``

Dear Sir, the person you are trying to abuse has as his identity: ``p MISHRA``, for godsakes atleast get your abuse right. I cannot tolerate incompetent abuse.

UM #31 I am re-posting what I wrote on unplugged for the benefit of any other reader of your post #31.

UM is pissed because I said he owed pmishra an apology for the expletive laden post he wrote in response to a post pmishra wrote putting down pakis. Rest assured this is not because I have any need to win Mr. pmishra`s approval, or that of anyone else on chowk.

Indeed, I am one of the few Pakistanis who routinely take Indian chauvinists who come to chowk only for ``paki bashing`` to task. Check with Uncle Jay Thakeray if you ever have any doubts on this point. Or with Arjun, Aleph Null, Sadna, gujjubania, or any of the dozens other Indian chauvinists and Pakistan haters who hate my guts for exposing their shabby mindsets as much as you do when I chose not to go along with what you say.

No, my friend, I have never been afraid to speak up to any man in real life and rest assured I am not afraid to speak up to strangers on chowk.

The only reason I said you owed pmishra an apology was because (a) while this particular post of pmishra was uncalled for, by and large he is quite reasonable. You went overboard (I thought) in posting insults to him. Nor was I the only Pakistani poster who noticed that and pointed it out to you - Ijaz Gul and Zehra (both of whom are fine posters) did the same. They stopped short of asking you to apologize, and I did.

If you dont feel the need to apologize - that is fine with me. Personally, if I feel I have been unfair to someone, I have apologized to that poster. YLH once apologized to me for misattributing some dumb statement to me, and that apology told me he was a man with self-respect. In your case, I can only say that your reaction indicates an immature personality.

I have been on this site for about four to five years now. During this whole time, there are two things I have never been able to figure out:

- The desire of so many Indians to, again and again, abuse anything that has anything to do with Pakistan. To the point of not allowing any useful discussions to take place on even issues, that have absolutely nothing to with India. Including this one.

If one goes on the, ``India votes and How`` thread nearly each of the last 200 replies is from Indians. There are only a very small fraction by Pakistanis. And even the critical ones are critical based on the topic.

On this thread, before the discussion had even started, on a topic which had nothing to do with India, the brigade jumped in, as usual. I am completely perplexed by why this happens, again and again, and again. Perhaps a sign of a historical inferiority complex? I don`t know.

- The second thing that astonishes me is the inablility of so many Pakistanis to ignore such remarks by various Indian posters. This is even more perplexing. What is gained by replying to someone who abuses you? What kind of argument are you going to present to him/her that will make him/her be quiet? You cannot reach through the Internet and beat the guy up. And nothing short of that will stop the person. So why even bother?

The whole aim of the person who is abusing someone is to instigate a reply. It is obviously not to create a discussion. It is to destroy one. Such individuals have issues, complexes and hatreds and in some cases, psychological problems. Why not just let them them drown in their own filth, rather than jump into the filth with them.

Murtaza Haider
IMO, these days even multi-national companies are finding it hard to put aside `unproductive` money for real research.

Then what to say about third world universities. For a good university atmosphere, leaving aside equipment(which can be very expensive depending on area of research), having good computing facilities and access to current literature and journals may not cost prohibitive amounts of money. To build meaningful collaborations with industry and universities overseas also (IMO) might require initiative more than large amounts of money.

And there are innovations to retain good faculty. For example, this was this state government scheme in India which would allow its medical college doctors about 5 years worth of unpaid leave without loss of service whereby by their own choice they could go abroad or to private hospitals, get professional satisfaction, earn some extra money, and then return to their govt. jobs and carry on. It is a good scheme which works IMO.

The hope is that these sort of initiatives which do not cost millions of dollars would still manage to provide a good work and study environment for new ideas.

Umer Murtaza
For the record, it still remains to be seen 1. Who will hang whom 2. Who will make whom extinct.

The fact that the question remains open does not imply that you are not worthy of being hung or being made extinct yourselves.

Meanwhile, it becomes clear how BADLY you people want to discuss this article, unfortunately chowk staff is blocking your posts on the subject and allowing only off-topic posts through. So sad.

bongdongs

``I cannot tolerate incompetent abuse. ``

haha..that was a great one!!

relax UM! go have a beer , you might explode some veins.

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Correction:
``get professional satisfaction``

``work on professional advancement such as taking exams and earning degrees``

Arjun,
My comments were not aimed at you. They were at the filty langauge used by Murtaza and Omar. in response to a remark by pmishra.
Romair,
Thanx for always reading my posts.
I think you would know Dr. Fawad Rauf. Now keep guessing???
Cheerios

[This is due to a culture of research and learning that promotes dedication, induces imagination, and breeds innovation. ]

This article has very genuine thoughts and suggestions coming out of each passage. I am not sure if Pakistani Society is prepared to embrace the culture of learning and research keeping civility in their back pocket.

On a relatively different note, I think many Pakistanis on Chowk will tremendously benefit from the latest findings on balancing their testosterone level. A good number of men are mentally challenged and emotionally disturbed. They like to write first and think afterwards. Some will start crying like little boys if someone disagrees with their gibberish. The ones who resist their tears usually come forth with way too much conceit that is beyond their own control. In short, it`s a real disturbing picture. It would be completely unfair to nurture any constructive expectation from them. Please recommend some organizations who may like to study their behavioral patterns. If you happen to find the right methods of cure to tackle this issue, please share the findings in your next article. That will be a sadqae` jariyaa. I am sure Chowk Admin would highlight that for all times to come. Best Regards.

This is a thoughtful article which could have led to some useful discussion were it not for the mindless interference of some individuals.

Dear Indians-with-issues (and only those): All right, Pakistan has issues. Can we please discuss our way out of them? And you stop forcing us in to the corner while we try to do the same? Also, why does anyone assume that once a person is provoked and humiliated, they will not retaliate in a manner appropriate or not? Please also refer to the following para.

Dear Pakistanis-with-issues 1: You know, it will help if you stop being an apology for yourself. Guess what, even though many of us can vote with the feet, there are many who cannot, and it is simply NOT their fault. Please realize that any person/nation with issues is NOT expecting a told-you-so, and that too ALL THE TIME. Articles like these, and an attempt to discuss them SHOW that Pakistanis (are beginning to) care. What else do your types want?

Dear Pakistanis-with-issues 2: These are the immature ones who do not grip the basic laws of conversation that children are familiarized with.

*Insult, and be insulted.
*Agar koi ganda bacha tumhain gali de, toh agay se gali na do.
*etc. Refer to common sense.

I am serious. This non-sense must end. And esp to the Indians - except for a person here or there, Pakistanis on this site have been receptive to you. Yes, stuff like what Mishra has said *has* a point. But the likes of these articles show that we got this point.

Please refer to any basic manual of good manners... and some advanced info on how to beign out the better in another person, how to resolve conflicts, and how to simply be quite when there`s no invitation for you to speak and destroy an argument.

ralph -- what in god`s name is a `sissy fit`? the fact is that he made an irrelevant and offensive comment and got something in kind -- that should have been the end of it but i suppose his foot soldiers had to come to his aid -- and by the way arjun , stop your misquoting plz -- pakistan`s expenditure on education is pretty abysmal but its not the $53 million figure that u said it is and not 0.37 per cent of GDP -- its around 2 per cent which is painfully low but almost six times your figure -- ijaz sahib -- aap kay kya kehnay -- some guy makes a completely irrelevant and inappropriate remark and gets a response and u think the ones who responded are to blame -- kya kehnay ijaz sahib --

ijaz sahib -- plz dont mind but i think you cant see in one eye -- metaphorically speaking of course

43 by ZahraJ on May 30, 2004 10:13pm PT

Why the Cultural Values of the Sub-Continent are mainly respnosible for the lack of successful Scientific Research Programs:

For a society that has drawn the limits to theory construction by calling free thinking names such as Bidda, paradigm shift is the first casuality. It is my view that only those persons who are not mired in the certainity of their standing in the universe can actually construct innovative hypothesis- on the other hand , societies with strong theological groundings and equally strongly socialized individuals can never come up with a research programme that can be deemed innovative and shift the paradigm. Only communities with strong hermeneutical tradition in its theology (as in christian west) we can find innovative world views which re-defines the perspective of its budding scientists and hypothesis creators. In other words, only where the theology is uncertain and open to interpretations can we have a `culture` where the scientific theorizing can be `innovative`. That is why the brown bum in the sub-continent can never run a successful research program within his society.

Mere funds do not make or break a genuine scientific research programme. The foremost thing required is the `cultural` value of uncertainity in one`s position viz a viz the nature and the world around us. When this desire is extinguished by wholly accepting the revelations from the books then you find guys like Naqshabandi finding it meaningless to carry on their PHD program. ``Certainty`` is the killer of this crucial hypothesis building activity within the scientific community- how can you work out new scheme of things in case the `TRUTH` is already revealed to you. I bet, you try to run a scientific institute with millions of dollars worth of funds with guys like Naqshabandi and UrsTruly around- you would NEVER succeed. That is why mere Funds do not alone make or break a successful scientific program.


Philanthropy again reflects the cultural value- the Saudi Trusts or the Jehadi Funds could have been pumped into the institutes of higher scientific learning- But Why Not? Why do they have scholarships for subjects in which you have to just quote Islamic theology (Islamic Chemistry, Islamic Nuclear Physics et.). Can they not invest in JUST `Pure Physics`- Can they? No, because these people do not share this cultural value of scientific programs running without the crutches of theology. So it is not mere Philanthropy that contributes to the scientific program- you need more on the cultural aspect of it.

43 by ZahraJ on May 30, 2004 10:13pm PT

Why the Cultural Values of the Sub-Continent are mainly respnosible for the lack of successful Scientific Research Programs:

For a society that has drawn the limits to theory construction by calling free thinking names such as Bidda, paradigm shift is the first casuality. It is my view that only those persons who are not mired in the certainity of their standing in the universe can actually construct innovative hypothesis- on the other hand , societies with strong theological groundings and equally strongly socialized individuals can never come up with a research programme that can be deemed innovative and shift the paradigm. Only communities with strong hermeneutical tradition in its theology (as in christian west) we can find innovative world views which re-defines the perspective of its budding scientists and hypothesis creators. In other words, only where the theology is uncertain and open to interpretations can we have a `culture` where the scientific theorizing can be `innovative`. That is why the brown bum in the sub-continent can never run a successful research program within his society.

Mere funds do not make or break a genuine scientific research programme. The foremost thing required is the `cultural` value of uncertainity in one`s position viz a viz the nature and the world around us. When this desire is extinguished by wholly accepting the revelations from the books then you find guys like Naqshabandi finding it meaningless to carry on their PHD program. ``Certainty`` is the killer of this crucial hypothesis building activity within the scientific community- how can you work out new scheme of things in case the `TRUTH` is already revealed to you. I bet, you try to run a scientific institute with millions of dollars worth of funds with guys like Naqshabandi and UrsTruly around- you would NEVER succeed. That is why mere Funds do not alone make or break a successful scientific program.


Philanthropy again reflects the cultural value- the Saudi Trusts or the Jehadi Funds could have been pumped into the institutes of higher scientific learning- But Why Not? Why do they have scholarships for subjects in which you have to just quote Islamic theology (Islamic Chemistry, Islamic Nuclear Physics et.). Can they not invest in JUST `Pure Physics`- Can they? No, because these people do not share this cultural value of scientific programs running without the crutches of theology. So it is not mere Philanthropy that contributes to the scientific program- you need more on the cultural aspect of it.

43 by ZahraJ on May 30, 2004 10:13pm PT

Why the Cultural Values of the Sub-Continent are mainly respnosible for the lack of successful Scientific Research Programs:

For a society that has drawn the limits to theory construction by calling free thinking names such as Bidda, paradigm shift is the first casuality. It is my view that only those persons who are not mired in the certainity of their standing in the universe can actually construct innovative hypothesis- on the other hand , societies with strong theological groundings and equally strongly socialized individuals can never come up with a research programme that can be deemed innovative and shift the paradigm. Only communities with strong hermeneutical tradition in its theology (as in christian west) we can find innovative world views which re-defines the perspective of its budding scientists and hypothesis creators. In other words, only where the theology is uncertain and open to interpretations can we have a `culture` where the scientific theorizing can be `innovative`. That is why the brown bum in the sub-continent can never run a successful research program within his society.

Mere funds do not make or break a genuine scientific research programme. The foremost thing required is the `cultural` value of uncertainity in one`s position viz a viz the nature and the world around us. When this desire is extinguished by wholly accepting the revelations from the books then you find guys like Naqshabandi finding it meaningless to carry on their PHD program. ``Certainty`` is the killer of this crucial hypothesis building activity within the scientific community- how can you work out new scheme of things in case the `TRUTH` is already revealed to you. I bet, you try to run a scientific institute with millions of dollars worth of funds with guys like Naqshabandi and UrsTruly around- you would NEVER succeed. That is why mere Funds do not alone make or break a successful scientific program.


Philanthropy again reflects the cultural value- the Saudi Trusts or the Jehadi Funds could have been pumped into the institutes of higher scientific learning- But Why Not? Why do they have scholarships for subjects in which you have to just quote Islamic theology (Islamic Chemistry, Islamic Nuclear Physics et.). Can they not invest in JUST `Pure Physics`- Can they? No, because these people do not share this cultural value of scientific programs running without the crutches of theology. So it is not mere Philanthropy that contributes to the scientific program- you need more on the cultural aspect of it.

Sadna,

In kerala there was a QIP, quality improvement program for engineering lecturers where they attaended summer schools at IITs for three years and then were given paid study leaves to get PHds. Then as you say, many have gone and worked in the middle east for 5 years and came back with loads of money.

For pakistan it is not a question of lack of ideas, it is simply a case of no one thinks education is important. Pakistan will be the only country where the generals are given a mercedes, and that is really disproportionate with what they do and the social norms.

The tragedy is that no one ven the tahmeds and YLHs do not dare to mention the perks of the military. It is a society where it is a curriculum requirement to collect photos of military men and shaheeds ahile no one even the pathetic editor of dawn, omar quraishi does no dare to write about abdus salam.

There is no social value in pakistan that admires scholarship, it is only the islamic scholarship that people care. A million people at Madreke, that tells something about the tahmeds and omars.

need to bash

Pakistan is a failed state. Jihadis operating with out any govt control can occupy border posts and take on the indian army. There are areas of pakistan where no paki soldier dares to go.
Pak govt bans an organisation and they put up a new board and start operating as though nothing happened.

There is no point in talking peace or for that matter anything with the pak govt. Even the yanks have started bombing pakistan.

This leaves the world with only one option of bashing any pakistani where ever one finds them, on which ever board. There is need to address the actions at individual pakistanis, since pakistan is a failed state.

pmishra, Ralph, ankit, mohar11, Jay, arjun_m and sadna are the vanguard of the great civilization that will one day succeed in their noble efforts to make Pakistanis behave like human beings out of fraternal love in the garb of `ahimsa permo dharma`. ZahraJ is the
only intelligent Pakistani who understands their goodwill and to some extent Uncle Tom of Chowk.

flyhighkites

Being civil and in love with one another is important but not as important as identifying, raising, and discussing real issues.

Murtaza Haider argued that:

1. Research and learning are important.
2. Research and learning need private sector and government support.
3. A few hundred households can get the R&L ball rolling by making donations.

PMishra wrote back that none of this was possible so long as a society remained focused on establishing Islamic supremacy, carrying on jehad, grabbing Kashmir, and crying for Palestinians.


What did you find irrelevant or offensive in this argument? If it`s just the tone, then that`s a sign of hypersensitivity and lack of confidence.

#52 by ballukhan

You are certainly right to put the onus on the theocratic bent of the society in the lack of research programs. This is limited and narrow but cogent argument. In Pakistan, though, religious bigotry is the supreme motivation to suppress the research in areas that may challenge the religion, but what has contributed more is the reluctance of the ruling class or the elite to promote “thinking” or rather “critical thinking” in the basic, mid level, and higher educational institutions. Sure enough, they draw their strength from the Islamic Ideology or Pakistan Ideology or “Nazaria-e-Pakistan” etc. But their reluctance to support R & D is mainly a reflection of their thought that any support of critical thinking or research in the areas of different arts and sciences, helps to create a level of intellectualism in the society that would provide the intellectual fodder to their opposition forces in the society.

This thought process is closer to fascist thinking that allowed for research in areas that helped the fascism but destroyed any other institutions that may oppose the fascism at some point in time.

Once you deprive a population to learn how to question, you have already destroyed the inquisitiveness in the young fellows to find a better solution thru research rather than following the run of the mill or the officially approved solution.

This pseudo-piety is disgusting.

1.All you have to do is look at responses to Indian articles on Indian issues and see what sort of disruptions Pakistanis always create. I personally remember being abused on multiple occasions by Pakistani interactors for posting my POV on Indian issues. However anyone has a right to hold an opinion on anything so that is their call not mine.

2. Inspite of disruptions, it is STILL possible to discuss what you wish to, but a requirement is, that instead of typing long posts preaching piously to other interactors, you actually have to WRITE ABOUT THE TOPIC.

Hypocrites.

ballukhan#52:

Good post & Valid Reasonings.

[Why the Cultural Values of the Sub-Continent are mainly respnosible for the lack of successful Scientific Research Programs:]

Personally, I have very little respect for the culture and any traditions it offers therefore I would be the last person to envision the said culture producing any positive results. Period.
Thanks for highlighting the harsh realities and describing the lay of the land. I would add a few things...To me both culture and belief are not the same. They are two completely different animals.

[For a society that has drawn the limits to theory construction by calling free thinking names .................. That is why the brown bum in the sub-continent can never run a successful research program within his society.]

I agree with you that ``innovation`` requires a different mindset and outlook towards life. But I would add that each budding scientist was and is not an atheist. True, often times they are open enough to let ``interpretation`` kick in when needed to. Bother culture and belief are two completely different thought process to me. The former should be discarded without a second thought since that has very little contribution for further development of human mind. The latter should be definitely preserved for ones emotional well being and balancing out the highs and lows. The above are very personal perspectives and cannot be generalized for all and sundry.

[Mere funds do not make or break a genuine scientific research programme. ..That is why mere Funds do not alone make or break a successful scientific program.]

I agree with your gist. As far as filling up the already filled glass is concerned, you are right on the mark!

[Philanthropy again reflects the cultural value- ........... Can they not invest in JUST `Pure Physics`- Can they?]

Excellent Point. No arguments!!!

[So it is not mere Philanthropy that contributes to the scientific program- you need more on the cultural aspect of it.]

I am sure the writer would make a good note of your above argument. Since it adds another dimension to his findings. And, this article ought to entertain other dimensions if it truly believes in what its presenting.

I would come back and reiterate my point that education by itself is nothing. Ironically, Pakistani Society in general does not have the right base for research and learning. They are certainly an excellent base for Sarsoan Kaa Saag and Makai Kii Roti.

Ijaz_gul #42: Don`t know Fawad Rauf. But would it be Hamdard University?

One word: patronage.

It`s not a matter of culture. It`s about the establishment of a scientific sub-culture, which has little or nothing to do with the culture of the masses. It is tremendously difficult to get the ball rolling when there has been so much neglect, however it is not a matter of elementary education (which is an absolute joke in the West - real education begins on the first day of University).

Nor is it a matter of theology (hermeneutics is the process of interpretations of an existing body of work...not in the least bit related to any Scientific process I`m familiar with). Very convienent to blame society at large, or aspects of it (particularly those you hate).

With patronage it’s a chicken and egg situation. No one is interested until a scientific community emerges. Yet, such a community can`t appear without the patronage. The solution requires some sort of seeding, however such seeds don`t come cheap.

Insofar as objections from various quarters of societies, blatant nonsense. Although initially the scientific community will receive no support from the community at large, it will by the same token face no barriers. No more excuses, and no more theories proclaiming the intractability of the situation to cop out of a problem with obvious solutions which require non-trivial amounts of effort (what a paki trait!). These have no credibility.

#55: The piety filled sermon had a lot of emphasis on ``thoughtfulness.``
How could you miss that ? :)

I have a Masters in Statistics. I always wished that I be able to explain main concepts in Probability and Statistics to my mother. She recently died leaving in me the regret that I could not explain her about what I have learned at college.

Learners of advanced topics will always be elite group. But when you are so elite that you have to learn in a foreign language and not being able to explain in local language even the most elementary concepts in your field then you are totally alienated from mainstream population. No matter how much money you spend on education programs this problem of alienation will not go away. Popularizing works on advanced topics written in local languages is a must for kindling interest in mainstream population before they take interest in advanced topics and support education. Also a link between science and improvement of life should be palpably obvious to common people. Not like ``woh bahut padhega, umreeka jayega aur bahut dollar kamaayega``. But like ``woh wheat ki production rate badhayega`` etc etc. People do see link between better physicians and surviving diseases, but not in any tangible way the link between mathematics and improvement of life.

Any large scale expansion of higher learning is bound to create large number of learned people who have to employ in jobs beneath their skill level. Like ZahraJ said you have to have enough avenues to utilize your energies after you learned some advanced topic. Recently I met a Math PhD. Her PhD topic was in Graph Theory and Combinatorics. She was looking for a Post-Doc Schol in US. Only because of Govt support such work can be done. It is difficult to see how Graph Theory could be used to improve life of povertized Indian millions. I myself am looking to enter academics again. I am fed up working as a ``code coolie``. Only reason I am considering this is because I might be able to work on and off campus and still maintain my former lifestyle. Could I have done that in India? No. In US and other western countries it is possible. This is made possible by surplus. When you produce more than you spend then only you can have surplus. Otherwise Pakistan also will end up becoming YAI (=yet another India). Why would anyone want to become YAI?

But other theory is trickle down theory. You just educate left and right and as number of graduates increase so will their desire to draw local people into their joy of learning and apply it to practical fields and automatically life improvement and appreciation of learning follows. I think so such theory is not correct. Trickle down does not work. A whole lot of facilitating mechanisms need to be foisted upon society. Educate people. Find them jobs. Have big technological programs funded by state. Build steel mills. Have agricultural universities. Have centers of excellence (funded by state) for improving life, farming etc etc. Have state funded publishing for quality literature both in English as well as local languages. etc etc.

Skoll is NOT a co-founder of ebay.
Europeans don`t work 24/7. Ive been to france & germany. Everyone quits friday afternoon.

Omar Sahib,
Chowk is a site to share views and not abusive language. A dignified person always stands tall. That`s the end of communications with you.
cheerios

This is for information of hate brigade.

Six months on, ceasefire holds true
Josy Joseph in New Delhi | May 31, 2004 15:41 IST
Last Updated: May 31, 2004 15:42 IST
The ceasefire along the border with Pakistan is six months old and Indian intelligence agencies are taking stock of the situation.
The agencies admit that the ceasefire, which started on November 26, 2003, has proved beneficial.
``It has been a great success by any measure. The gains are immense and we are still trying to figure out how to firm up the ceasefire as a permanent measure,`` says an army general.

The ceasefire came into existence along the 740km Line of Control, the 110km Line of Actual Ground Position in Siachen and the small portion of the International Border in Jammu region after Pakistan made a unilateral offer and India reciprocated.

jay #51
Jay you need to take a look at Hindi-belt governments to understand what is disrespect for education, science and research. The funny thing is there the so-called enlightened elites are powerless to change things.

ZahraJ #58
I definitely did not mean you!

re: Research in Pakistan
THere is no doubt that research in Pakistan is complicated by religous bigotry.
One has to just consider what happened to Abdus Salam, one of the greatest scientists from South Asia and the very best from Pakistan. The only Pakistani and the first muslim scientist to receive a Nobel.
His best efforts to create a research center in Physics in Pakistan met with failure mainly because he was an Ahmadiya.
In this article, Pervez Hoodhbhoy narrates his encounters with the scientist and how Salam`s fight to advance the cause of science in Islamic countries met with failiure.
Url: http://www.globalwebpost.com/farooqm/study_res/abdus_salam/encounter.html

``Salam`s epoch-making achievements as a scientist stand in stark contrast with his dismal failure to bring science back to Islam. It was not for lack of trying, but nothing ever really worked. The Islamic Science Foundation, a grand scheme for scientific advancement with an endowment of $1 billion collected from oil-rich countries, came to nought after Salam was banned from ever setting foot in Saudi Arabia. Kuwait and Iran did give some money for supporting their scientists at the ICTP, but the amounts were niggardly. Promises by kings, princes, and emirs remained promises. Salam`s efforts did contribute towards creating at least some of the score or so organizations whose raison d`etre is to accelerate science and technology in Muslim countries. But these organizations provide nothing but cushy jobs for those who sit at their helms, and they are no more than litter on the landscape today. ``

The same Hoodhbhoy, in this article in the Washingtonpost, talks about failure of scientific research in Pakistan. Url: http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A37263-2001Dec28¬Found=true
Excerpts:
1. ``You will seldom see a Muslim name as you flip through scientific journals, and if you do, the chances are that this person lives in the West. There are a few exceptions: Pakistani Abdus Salam, together with Americans Steven Weinberg and Sheldon Glashow, won the Nobel Prize for Physics in 1979. I got to know Salam reasonably well; we even wrote a book preface together. He was a remarkable man, terribly in love with his country and his religion. And yet he died deeply unhappy, scorned by Pakistan, declared a non-Muslim by an act of the Pakistani parliament in 1974. Today the Ahmadi sect, to which Salam belonged, is considered heretical and harshly persecuted. (My next-door neighbor, an Ahmadi physicist, was shot in the neck and heart and died in my car as I drove him to the hospital seven years ago. His only fault was to have been born into the wrong sect.)``

2. ``Though genuine scientific achievement is rare in the contemporary Muslim world, pseudo-science is in generous supply. A former chairman of my department has calculated the speed of heaven: He maintains it is receding from Earth at one centimeter per second less than the speed of light. His ingenious method relies upon a verse inthe Islamic holy book, which says that worship on the night on whichthe book was revealed is worth a thousand nights of ordinary worship. He states that this amounts to a time-dilation factor of 1,000, which he puts into a formulaof Einstein`s theory of special relativity.``

3. ``A more public example: One of two Pakistani nuclear engineers recently arrested on suspicion of passing nuclear secrets to the Taliban had earlier proposed to solve Pakistan`s energy problems by harnessing the power of genies. He relied on the Islamic belief that God created man from clay, and angels and genies from fire; so this highly placed engineer proposed to capture the genies and extract their energy.``

Religion when used as a dogma or for compelling one`s views, goes counter to scientific principles. HRD minister Murli Manohar Joshi in India was trying to recreate some past glories (real and imaginary) of Hindu science based on unscientific principles. He has met his end. One would hope for a similar fate to religious zealots in Pakistan.
Sridhar

Sadna: I may not have exchanged notes with you on Chowk in a long long long while, but I definitely didn`t misunderstand you. There was some pun in my previous post. I am completely in agreement with your previous assertion and I am glad that you took the bull by its horns. The worst thing is that the bull does not know how badly his/her horns are stuck. Do you realize the irony here ? :)

All economic conditions kept constant, there is a dire need of research - that includes biz research and theoretical research (which must ultimately lead to tanglible economic benefits). One of the issues that organizations are facing in PK today is the break-down of value chain at many levels... As a manager in a fledgling organization, I, among other PK mngrs, see this issue in the face. Forget about rsrsch, there is hardly any info OR even data to be found. Finally the organization has to resort to do its own rsrch for every little thing, but this goes against the basic economics sense. What a waste of resources!

Here I`d appreciate that the Indians are far ahead ... and there are many insitutes that are mining and shaping the data. Great information resources.

Like MH, we also reached the conclusion that the schools and students need to be enabled and involved. B/c on the other hand, students are crying out for real assignments. There is a lack of a match-making mechanism... a clearing house for demand and supply.... and sadly this ``match-making`` is absent at many levels.

True, that some organizations are still afraid of rsrch; yet by and large the PK mngrs are realizing that self-defeating nature of this attitude. My personal experience has been that if we Ivy-types care enough to sit down and explain to the seth the virtue of rsrch, they do listen, and they do act.

About the culture of rsrch: Some instances

* On an interest-based yahoogroup, an MBA finalist asked ``Hey guys! this is my final semester. Wanna do a paper on advertising, but no idea what to write. Can anybody tell me what topic to do my reasearch on. Thnx.`` Surprised at receiving this msg from Planet Ignorance, I beamed back that it was horrible to be so clueless at this stage of
one`s MBA and to get someone to do the assignment (picking the rsrch ques was part of the assignment). This person must be knowledgeable enough to know what problem may he choose to rsrch on. I would certainly not like to hire him! Surprisingly, it was I who ``got it`` from the group, with only tacit support.

* I met a grad `rsrchr` undertaking a rsrch on media preferences. She asked me to fill a questnre. I pointed out that most of the questions were leading, and the rsrch was completely biased, even nonsensical. (Also, the grammatical mistakes and absence of directions, etc.!) Her reply: ``Oho, doesn`t matter. Mark anything. I`ve already made my
report.`` I balled up the paper and threw it in the bin.

* Paper on e-banking, submitted by an MBA finalist. Despite my hours of training spiced with warnings that I will know if there is any copy/paste, fake rsrch job, this is what I got on page 3:
``CityBank also offers this blah-blah online service. For more information, click here.``
- and this came from the ``top business school`` ki student.

Sadna, Ralph, ZahraJ - the ``off-track`` comments on this discussion thread are in the unplugged area, off-the-wall, same heading.

---

MurtazaH, there is little that I can add given that many interactors incl. Malik, HP, ballu, sadna, sridhar, and others have pretty much covered the issues. Briefly, these are my thoughts:

1. Curiosity is not nurtured in our environment. Why not? Ballu`s/HP`s answer explains most of it. I feel that it is the ``Chosen One`` attitude - the feeling that we`re already there - fatalistic notions - that are to blame.
2. But that`s not the only thing. Let me throw in a curve - I also feel that there is a general lack of ``energy`` in people. The lethargic attitude... the will to do nothing, and no will to do anything. Is lifestyle to be blamed?
3. Pandora`s Box: It is amazing where this curiosity-killing comes from as far as Muslims are concerned. Isn`t the every other line in Muslim scriptures an invitation to ``think?`` And to observe? I would recommend that as a charter of any research-driven university!

Life is fairly like a movie with a certain ending, or at least one that is certain to end. Still, we read books through and through, and watch every other predictable movie. Why can`t life be lived as a curious person who pokes around and explores... why does it just slip us away? I am thinking aloud here, though there are many private conclusions that I have reached. More later, duty calls!

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Research and Learning:
In today`s world higher, ground breaking research always requires large amounts of funds. Check out any university in the western world and you will see cut throat competition between different research programs for funds. In developing countries like india and pakistan - where many people go without a square meal on many days - the masses WILL treat education as just a tool to better their leaving conditions.

For example, how many posters on this board have done their graduation or post graduation in fields related to pure sciences as apposed to engineering / management / finance related fields? Even in a progressive and relatively better educated state like Maharashtra in India, the number of students on the Engineering waiting list is double the number of seats going vacant in Pure science courses. All this points to one fact: People of subcontinent do not think that a career in higher research is a good career move.

Let me now ask a question: Why is higher research a MUST for a country like, say, India? In todays world, where every new technological breakthrough is available to anyone with an internet connection, why must we waste our national resources in higher research? I believe that our resources will be better spent by acquiring technologies already invented - by fair means or foul, doesnt matter - and adapting them for our use. Remember, Japanese did not invent automobile or transister but Japanese cars and electronic items are respected for their quality world over. It is only in the later part of Japanese technical revolution that they started churning out items ranging from walkmans to electronic gaming machines to pet robots.

So my solution: Do not waste our resources on higher research right now. Instead, concentrate on building a critical mass of skilled technical labor force (engineers, technicians, etc) right now. Once we have such a body of knowledge and skills, the advances in higher research will follow. Untill then, it will be a domain of elites, much like it has been throughout the history of Indian civilization.

flyhighkites,
You are one of the coolest and smartest people on this site. Thank you for having the courage to state the obvious and for talking some sense to the cyber warriors. Let me just say that the point scoring that goes on between indians and pakistanis on this site is totally disgusting. Let me also say that lately I have seen more indians than pakistanis indulge in such kind of behaviour (although I have to admit that both sides have bad apples in equal measure) Each and every article that appears on chowk eventually degenerates into a bashfest between india and pakistan.

The chowk`s tagline says ``Ideas and identities of Pakistan`` but to me it seems more like ``Gali and Galuch of subcontinental filth`` I dont want to appear sanctimonious, nor do I want to hijack this thoughtful article, but chowk need to put stop to this mindless chatter or else it will become another Paknews type site. Please lets try to have a DIALOGUE on this site instead of a shouting match. Thanks.

pmishra, arjum_m, ralph et al: Although I fail to ``get`` the sarcasm intended in pmishra`s post, I agree that sometimes sarcasm is the best way to make your point. However, it does not help when directed randomly and intended mainly as a flame bait.
Getting off the soapbox now :)

sadna plz stop quoting stuff from asia times -- thats like quoting fox news by the way -- ijaz sahib telling someone to get a life is not abusing them -- its actually helping them out by giving them some good advice, esp if u consider who its for -- zingari , man you`re absolutely right, tho im not sure zahraJ even got the Uncle Tom reference --

Sadna, Ralph, ZahraJ - the ``off-track`` comments on this discussion thread are in the unplugged area, off-the-wall, same heading.

---

MurtazaH, there is little that I can add given that many interactors incl. Malik, HP, ballu, sadna, sridhar, and others have pretty much covered the issues. Briefly, these are my thoughts:

1. Curiosity is not nurtured in our environment. Why not? Ballu`s/HP`s answer explains most of it. I feel that it is the ``Chosen One`` attitude - the feeling that we`re already there - fatalistic notions - that are to blame.
2. But that`s not the only thing. Let me throw in a curve - I also feel that there is a general lack of ``energy`` in people. The lethargic attitude... the will to do nothing, and no will to do anything. Is lifestyle to be blamed?
3. Pandora`s Box: It is amazing where this curiosity-killing comes from as far as Muslims are concerned. Isn`t the every other line in Muslim scriptures an invitation to ``think?`` And to observe? I would recommend that as a charter of any research-driven university!

Life is fairly like a movie with a certain ending, or at least one that is certain to end. Still, we read books through and through, and watch every other predictable movie. Why can`t life be lived as a curious person who pokes around and explores... why does it just slip us away? I am thinking aloud here, though there are many private conclusions that I have reached. More later, duty calls!

While Murtaza set out the noble goal & FINAL DESTINATION,

Jay, Sadna, Arjun_m & ZaraJ very rightly pointed out the main hurdle. They may sound rough but they call a spade a spade.

How many of us are bold enough to stand up on a Forum and say that TWO-NATION-THEORY is no more valid. It is now ONE nation of Pakistan based on its Geography and History.

Meanwhile, the full-throated Mulla keeps sermonizing on loud speakers day in day out - Islam, Islam, Islam - Pakistan was created in the name of Islam. And his theory is fully agreed by the Faujis & the Muslim Leagures - the Majority in Assembly. The only people who differ are the PPP wallas, MQM and the smaller national parties.

Unlike Jay, Sadna, Arjun-M & ZaraJ, we are not bold enough to stand up & be blunt.

Meanwhile, our Constitution becomes subservient to Quran & Sunnah - Democracy is killed. Universities can not even open Departments of Music and Performiong Arts.

The full-throated Mulla keeps on saying that Quran contains everything. There is no other guidance is required.

Cutting the long story short, we need to openly state that the Two-Nation-Theory is no more valid. Every citizen has equal rights. Everyone to his own belief. Everything else will fall into its own place automatically.

Then sky is the limit for carrying out research on any topic on this earth.

(Remember, Ijtihad or Research has been banned in Islam since the last few hundred years)

``Jay, Sadna, Arjun_m & ZaraJ``

laholwila quwat. Nazar Sahib bhang te hath hola rakho

I think people not being curious enough has more to do with the economics than religion or culture.

Mr. Haider

Very informative article.

Flyhighkites: Please avoid addressing me in your future discourses. Probably, you should start flying low since the height is impacting your well being.

Why are Muslim countries intellectual deserts and Islamic `literature` nearly as fertile as sand dunes?

We need to understand that intellectual curiousity (of which research is just one part) requires openness. The ability to question self-serving `God-given` platitudes. Courage to break from the crowd. Above all, unshakeable commitment to truth, no matter where the chips may fall.

In Islamic countries these are utterly blasphemous requirements. In these countries, the dominant ideolo