My Pakistan

1) I must respectfully decline the honour you seem to be bestowing on India viz. that we are part of some axis with the Americans and Israelis against Pakistan/Islam. Because, it is simply not true. Israelis have problems with Arabs, whereas India has excellent relations with all Arab countries, indeed all Muslim countries, barring Pakistan.

2) Which brings me to another of the pet peeves of Radical Islamists (particularly of Pakistani provenance) - that there is a global Christian/Jewish/Hindu(?!!) conspiracy against Islam. The religious history of the world is dominated by the three great monotheisms that originated in West Asia, namely Judaism, Christianity and Islam. The Hindu religion (religions?) played at best a side role, as it were. So, this honour is also totally undeserved.

3) Muslims in any other part of the world have no problem with India or with Hindus.

#150

Pakistan, by the Grace of ALLAH, can defend itself from the Real Axis of Evil and Threat to World Peace - India, Israel & USA.

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Additional comment on the past and its relationship to the present. Also exposes hypocrites like tahmed who want to pretend that Islam was always ``progressive`` and full of ``modern values``.:


Going back in history, Hindu extremists now openly talk of getting even for the centuries of Muslim invasions and dominance. The destruction of Babri Masjid in Ayodhya was an expression of this growing expression of Hindu nationalism. Zakaria says that Mahmood of Ghazni`s depredations into India a thousand years ago had little to do with Islam and were basically expeditions aimed at loot and plunder. However, Ferishta`s monumental History of the Rise of the Mahomedan Power in India, translated into English by John Briggs in 1829, tells a different story. According to Ferishta, on an expedition to India in 1011, Mahmood was informed about a Hindu holy city called Tahnesur and determined to conquer it. Raja Anundpal sent his brother with an offer of ``fifty elephants and jewels of a considerable amount`` apart from meeting the cost of the expedition if Mahmood would spare Tahnesur.

Mahmood is quoted as replying: ``The religion of the faithful inculcates the following tenet: `That in proportion as the tenets of the Prophet (PBUH) are diffused, and his followers exert themselves in the subversion of idolatry, so shall be their reward in heaven; that, therefore, it behoved him, with the assistance of God, to root out the worship of idols from the face of all India. How then should he spare Tahnesur?``

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pmishra #146 you keep ignoring what i have written, and keep coming back saying the same thing. so there is no point in my repeating myself.

i hope you dont discuss things this way in real life otherwise you would drive all your friends and all your enemies up the wall.

#141 tahmed

Like many religously-oriented and naive people you believe that because islam has a progressive attitude towards muslim men, it must be progressive towards ``others``. This is not supported by fact or history.

You do not have to restrict yourself to Islam to understand this. Christianity has some progressive elements in terms of individuals personnal relations to god. This did not prevent Christians from embarking on genocide, cultural erasure and mass murder. The hindu scriptures have some of the most profound statements about divinity and point to the belief that god is present in each iindividual. This has not prevented hindus from getting involved with extreme forms of discrimination based on varna and jati.

Islamic history is very clear on the use for violence and cultural erasure of the others. When necessary muslims have used religously justified genocide to ``erase`` their opponents. This is well documented with the jewish minorities in Arabia, Zorastrians in Persia, Buddhists in Afghanistan. Not surprisingly, none of these groups survive in any real form.

Does this make Islamic civilization any worse than most others? No, I do not think so. But what is striking is the obliviousness and ignorance of modern educated muslims to these aspects of their tradition. This includes a great reluctance to even acknowledge it. Saying things like ``All men are equal according to the Quran`` becomes a horrific form of denial and way of distancing yourself from harsh truths and realities.

#144 by Zakkk on December 1, 2003 3:50pm PT

[Interesting...sounds like India is providing shelter to terrorists?]

Only, there is no official patronage from the Government of India, unlike in Pakistan.

Interesting...sounds like India is providing shelter to terrorists?


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/3246066.stm
Maoist leaders are said to be using India for shelter.

India is also a member of Interpol and, like Nepal, has branded the Maoist rebels as terrorists.

The Central Bureau of Investigation said India had no reports that Nepali Maoist leaders had taken shelter in the country.

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pmishra: that should be my post #126, not #136, that i mistakenly referred to in my post below.

pmishra: while not wishing to write yet another post on the matter (having already wished you a good day once), i see i need to set the record straight on something you say about me to another poster:

you write ``Instead of saying that for 600AD the concept that all muslim men are equal was a progressive step``. In fact that is exactly one of the points i made in the discussion (one of many that you ignored in your eagerness to win an argument): please read my post #136 to ahmedzai where i emphasize (by using capital letters) that it is the DIRECTION in which the Quran pointed in the context of those times that is significant (this was in the context of equality of women, but the same obviously applies to other social aspects).

ahmedzai #138 and the noble blue eyed definitely not-panjabi warrior from the tribal areas, corp commander aurakzai himself, will no doubt be waiting at the islamabad airport to make sure every arriving american takes off his shoes. ;-)

arjun_m at # 125:

On the basis of news from WP, NYT, CNN, BBC, etc. the world had also believed that:

1. Iraq under Saddam had WMD and was about to launch an attack against the USA.

2. The Iraqis will welcome the Americans with open arms.

3. The Muslim countries will form a bee line to sent their military to Iraq in support of Americans.

3. With Afghanistan liberated from Talibans, all the Afghan women will get rid of the Burqa and will start singing, dancing and participating in beauty pageants under full endorsement of cultural ministry of Afghanistan.

4. The poppy fields of Afghanistan will be history.

5. The warlordism in Afghanistan will yield to total peace.

6. The thousands of `extremist` Muslims were rightly raped, killed and burnt alive in Gujrat in retaliation of peaceful Hindus killed by `extremist` Muslims at Godhra.

arjun at 125:

Oh I forgot to mention that following happened as a result of WP news that you quoted:

British Airways resumes flights to Pakistan

(Updated at 1615 PST)
ISLAMABAD: British Airways will resume flights to Pakistan from Monday, following their suspension in the aftermath of the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks in the United States, official media said.


BA will operate flights from London to Islamabad on Mondays, Wednesdays and Saturdays, while the return flights will depart Islamabad on Tuesdays, Thursdays and Sundays.

:-)

#133 Zakk

I am sorry that being truthful about the contents of a book causes you such pain.

#128 arjun_m

I personally enjoyed this one the most - it has the maximum number of details in it. I like the part about cutting off the fingers AFTER striking off the head of the unbeliever. I guess it ensures that the unbeliever is really done for.

---

Smite the neck and cut fingertips of unbelievers
8.12: When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

---

All this being said, let us be clear that all of the older religions have some very bizarre aspects. The old testament is laden with revenge killings and murder, post-Constantine Christianity is pretty much a fascist cult until the reformation, the Manusmriti reeks of prejudice and violence.

What is depressing about educated people like tahmed is their insistence that their tradition is very special and was always very modern etc. Instead of saying that for 600AD the concept that all muslim men are equal was a progressive step, they will make up silly lies like ``Quran says all men are equal``. I guess he is the equivalent of educated hindus who insist that discrimination based on varna and jati began only after the muslim invasions or somehow didn`t matter or something like that.