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Of Men and Fences

Syed Ali December 16, 2003

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#31 Posted by anew on December 24, 2003 7:52:51 am
#30

``jihad is not killing of kafirs``.

I can understand your stereo-type understanding of Islam based on hatred and disinformation. I wish you had read my `cut & paste` post #29. If you had done so this question would not arise.

The ``kafirs`` can be citizen of Islamic State. The State has the responsibility to protect them. Then how weird is your simple query - Jihad is killing by Muslim Army (state army not individuals or groups) of those Kafirs 1) who attack on Muslims. (self-defence) 2) opress the `kafirs` who want to convert Muslims.

It is not Muslim`s religious duty to kill kafirs. We don`t do Jihad to convert you and accept you as a Kafir with full respect but feel sorry for you for being astray from Right Path.
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#30 Posted by jay on December 23, 2003 12:44:18 am
Anew 26,

There are a lot of people like you on chowk, ranging from tahmed to urstruly, who keep quoting some never practiced passages from koran. No one dares to correct the dominant view, or even attempt to change.

Will you dare to say that ``jihad is not killing of kafirs``. No you will not and if you have any decency, any honesty, and any self respct, then you will ost that quote above, and you will be asserting that your version of what koran says. If you believe that the above quote is wrong, and is not consistant with what you read in koran, say so, in 6 words, and nothing more. Anew, only six words, cut and paste it. That will be more powerful than the thousand you have posted on chowk. Anew, 6 words, and let the world know that you have discovered the true meaning of islam, different from laskers, hizbul mujahidden, and al quida.
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#29 Posted by anew on December 22, 2003 6:48:55 am

I always ask my friends to read the following article on Jihad by Dr. Israr Ahmad to understand the true meaning of Jihad - ``Striving in the cause of Allah`` ;

If we were to make a list of all the Islamic terms and concepts that have been inadvertently misconstrued or deliberately distorted, by the apologetic Muslims or Western orientalists, then Jihad can easily be placed at the top of that list.
Although the significance of Jihad in the Qur`an and Sunnah cannot be overstated, its exact place in the overall framework of Islamic values and imperatives has been a matter of some debate. Some writers have described Jihad as the fifth pillar of Islam, while others have relegated it to a mere Fard Kafayah (a collective, rather than personal, duty).
A highly misleading but popular idea in this respect is that any war in which the Muslims are engaged, even if the motives are other than purely Islamic, is Jihad fi Sabeel lillah. In view of the confusions and misunderstandings that surround this most fundamental of Islamic concepts, we are going to discuss here, very briefly, the meaning and import of Jihad vis-à-vis the other duties and obligations of a Muslim.
The word Jihad is not synonymous with ``Holy War`` which is what the Western media wants everyone to believe. After four decades of Cold War, the Western powers suddenly found themselves without a legitimate enemy, and, consequently, they have designated Islam and the Muslims as the most deadly threat to world peace.
The image of all Muslims as terrorists was inculcated by numerous so-called documentaries, like the infamous Jihad in America (PBS). In the face of such widespread media stereotypes, it is indeed an uphill task to educate the non-Muslims regarding the true meaning of Jihad. Much more important, however, is the task of removing the misconception which are prevalent among the Muslims themselves.
The foundation of the edifice of Islam consists in the verbal testimony of God`s unity and Muhammad`s (SAW) prophethood. Built upon this foundation are the four pillars of Islam with which all of us are familiar, i.e., Salat, Zakat, Saum, and Hajj. Please note, however, that Iman (or faith) also has two pillars: an unshakable inner conviction in the teachings of Prophet Muhammad (SAW) and the struggle in the path of Almighty Allah (SWT). This has been described in the Qur`an thus:
They alone are the mo`min who come to believe in Allah and His messenger and afterwards never doubted, and who strive in the way of Allah with their wealth and their lives. Only they are truthful and sincere. (Al-Hujurat 49:15)
What does this ayah really mean? It means that there is absolutely no way, for a person who claims to be a believer, to avoid Jihad fi Sabeel lillah and still remain a believer in the sight of Almighty Allah (SWT). Indeed, the very definition of a mo`min, as given in Surah Al-Hujurat, necessitates that a strong faith and state of inner certitude be coupled with an active struggle in the path of Allah (SWT).
The word Jihad and the verb that goes with it mean to struggle against some opposition. Thus, each and every human being is engaged in Jihad, in the sense that everyone has to struggle for his existence. However, the kind of Jihad we are talking about should be qualified as fi Sabeel lillah, that is to say, trying and exerting one`s utmost in the path of Almighty Allah. It is an earnest and ceaseless activity involving the sacrifice of physical and mental resources, wealth, property, and even life, only for the sake of attaining the pleasure Almighty Allah (SWT).
In order to understand the meaning of striving in the path of Allah, we should first have a clear concept of the responsibilities of a Muslim. According to the Qur`an and the Sunnah, the obligations of a Muslim are three-fold: A Muslim is required to become an obedient slave of Almighty Allah (SWT), he is required to mold his life, his values, his priorities, and his ambitions according to the commands of his Lord.
Secondly, he must preach and disseminate the ideational and practical guidance of Islam to his fellow human beings, to enjoin all that is good and prohibit all that is evil. Thirdly, he must try his utmost to establish the domination of Islam over all other systems of life, all over the world.
Even a superficial analysis of these three obligations is enough to establish the fact that none of them is easy to fulfill. There are immence difficulties to overcome, all sorts of oppositions to put up with, and countless problems to solve at each of the three levels.A Muslim must put in a great deal of hard labor in fulfilling these obligations, he must exercise all his abilities and all his resources if he is to fulfill his duties. In other words, he is required to engage in a constant Jihad. This struggle or Jihad covers a wide spectrum of religious obligations, and its inherent activism can be understood as having nine different stages or aspects, as explained below:
In trying to live a life of total obedience to Almighty Allah (SWT) and to follow the example of Prophet Muhammad (SAW), a Muslim must resist the following:
· The sinful impulses and evil inclinations of his own nafs;
· The temptations implanted by Iblees and his progeny;
· The ridicule, opposition, and pressures from the un-Islamic society in which he happens to live.
In trying to spread the teachings of the Holy Qur`an and those of Prophet Muhammad (SAW) to every nook and corner of the world, a Muslim will encounter three types of people, and therefore he must develop different approaches and levels of scholarship to cater for each of these groups:
· The educated and intelligent classes;
· The common people, or the masses at large;
· The rigid and inflexible adversaries.
In endeavoring for the establishment of the ascendancy of Islam over all other systems of life, members of the Islamic movement will have to go through the following stages:
· Passive Resistance, enduring all verbal and physical persecution without retaliation;
· Active Resistance, challenging the un-Islamic system when there is enough strength available to do so;
· And finally, the Armed Conflict (or a non-violent and disciplined popular movement)
It should be obvious from the above discussion that armed conflict or Qitaal constitutes only the last of the nine stages or aspects of Jihad, and that these two are not synonymous terms. Thus, we see that Prophet Muhammad (SAW) spent the entire twelve years of the Meccan period in calling people towards Islam, in organizing and training those who responded, and, during all that time, both he and his Companions endured all verbal and physical harassment with a non-violent attitude.
It was only after Hijrah, when a strong center of the Islamic Movement was established in Medina, that Prophet Muhammad (SAW) decided that now there was enough strength at his disposal to challenge the Quraysh, and only then the Islamic movement entered the phases of Active Resistance and Armed Conflict.
In view of this, all the revivalist and revolutionary Islamic groups throughout the Muslim world must keep the following fact in mind: While an armed struggle against an un-Islamic political system is permissible under certain conditions (whether or not it is feasible in today`s world is another issue), such a struggle cannot be launched without first going through the initial eight stages of Jihad.
It is vitally important that those who are trying to change the world in accordance with the will of Allah (SWT) must first change their own lives. It is indeed ironical that the life-style of many of the Muslims who are engaged in Islamic activism cannot be described as ideal or exemplary.
We must keep in mind that Prophet Muhammad (SAW) has described the struggle to make one`s own self obedient to Almighty Allah (SWT) as the ``Greater Jihad.`` We cannot expect to eradicate the evils in our society unless we first subjugate our own sinful impulses. Similarly, it is also essential that all the available means and resources be utilized in calling people towards the light of Islam, in removing their false beliefs, and in helping them realize the truth of Prophet Muhammad`s (SAW) teachings, before initiating the final phases of Jihad.
What, exactly, is the nature of the relationship between Iman and Jihad, or faith and struggle? During the days of early, pristine Islam, we find that the two major realities — which formed the focus of attention for the Muslims — were Qur`an and Jihad. Qur`an was the source of Iman, and Iman manifested itself in Jihad. Primarily, it was the force and appeal of the Qur`anic verses that conquered the hearts and souls of the Companions (RAA), leading to a profound change in their values, priorities, ambitions, and thinking pattern.
This inner transformation quite naturally led to a sense of dissatisfaction and discontent with what was happening in their environment, resulting in the development of friction and a lack of harmony between the Muslims and their un-Islamic milieu. A genuine inner change necessarily leads to a conflict with the status quo. In the case of the Companions (RAA), the inner transformation was characterized by Iman, and the resulting conflict took the form of Jihad.
Things began to change, however, when Islam entered the era of ``statehood`` and ceased to be a ``movement.`` As a result, the attention of the Muslim community gradually started to shift from the moving and inspiring verses of the Qur`an to legal and judicial matters, from the inner dynamics of Iman to the external manifestation of Islam, and from Jihad in the path of Allah (SWT) to warfare for the defense — or expansion —of the Muslim territories. The idea that Jihad is a Fard Kafayah was made popular by the legalistic mind which equated it with the responsibilities of the armed forces.
How can we bring about an Islamic Renaissance in our own times? It will be possible only by following the methodology of Prophet Muhammad (SAW). The only surefire and unfailing strategy for Islamic Renaissance, therefore, must involve the revitalization of Iman through the Qur`an, and the launching of an Islamic movement on the basis of the dynamism thus unleashed.
We need to establish a strong nucleus of true conviction and faith among the educated and rational elements of the Muslim society — the brain-trust of the Muslim Ummah — by means of the propagation of the Qur`anic wisdom at the highest intellectual level. The light of Iman will then illuminate all other segments of the society. This is the essential prerequisite for Islamic Renaissance, as it constitutes the only methodology to generate the dedicated and committed man-power to undertake the Jihad for the establishment of the domination of Islam over all other systems of life, all over the world.

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#28 Posted by anew on December 21, 2003 6:50:17 am
#26 by jay on December 20, 2003 11:05pm PT
anew,

There is no point in quoting from a book. What one has to look at is the operational islam, islam as it is practiced. All of the views and emphasis of you and tahmed are mere academic niceties, rejected by the rulers and practitioners of the religion.

Quite true as far as `rejected by the rulers and practitioners of the religion` but Islam is not an `academic nicetie`. It is made so by the `Liberal Muslims` who are `practicing` the Ritual part of it.

I just present you a beautiful passage (17:23-39) from the Qur`an to show how `Practical` it is;

(i) Thy Lord hath decreed, that ye worship none save Him.

(ii) And that (ye show) kindness to parents. If one of them or both of them were to attain old age with thee, say not `Fie` unto them nor repulse them, but speak unto them a gracious word. And lower unto them the wing of tenderness through mercy, and say: My Lord! Have mercy on them both, as they did care for me when I was little. Your Lord is best aware of what is in your minds. If ye are righteous, then lo! He is ever Forgiving unto those who turn (unto Him) in repentance.

(iii) Give the kinsman his due, and the poor, and the wayfarer, and squander not (thy wealth) in wantonness. Lo! the squanderers are ever brothers of the devils and the Devil was an ingrate to his Lord. But if thou has to turn away from them, waiting mercy from thy Lord, for which thou hopest, then speak unto them a convenient word.

(iv) And let not thy hand be chained to thy neck nor open it with a complete opening, lest thou sit down rebuked, denuded. Lo! thy Lord enlargest the provision for whom He will and straineth (it from whom He will). Lo! He is ever Knower, Seer of His slaves.

(v) Slay not your children, fearing a fall to penury; we shall provide for them and for you. Lo! the slaying of them is a great sin.

(vi) And come not near unto fornication. Lo! it is an abomination and an evil way.

(vii) And slay not the life which God hath forbidden save with right. Whoso is slain wrongfully, We have given power unto his rightful representative, but let him not commit excess in slaying. Lo! he will be helped.

(viii) Come not near the property of the orphan save with that which is better till he come to strength;

(ix) And keep the covenant. Lo! of the covenant it will be asked.

(x) Fill the measure when ye measure, and weigh with a right balance; this is meet, and best refuge.

(xi) Follow not that whereof thou hast no knowledge. Lo! the hearing and the sight and the heart - of each of these it will be asked.

(xii) And walk not in the earth exultant. Lo! thou canst not rend the earth, nor canst thou stretch to the height of the hills. The evil of all that is hateful in the sight of thy Lord. This is part of the wisdom wherewith thy Lord had inspired thee (O Muhammad). And set not up with God any other god, lest thou be cast into hell, reproved, abandoned.


The Quran is a Message for all mankind and if someone doesn`t practice it then we can`t declare the Divine Message as non-practical and failing to provide guidance. It is not the failure of Islam but the so-called Muslims who failed to understand and practice it. And let Jays claim that operational version of Islam is different from Real Islam. You are not fully wrong Jay; it is quite true.
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#27 Posted by wajahat on December 21, 2003 12:47:26 am
ironman

``Yeeesss! We all know there are these training camps...these recruitment centers in Lahore...money collection for jihad...young pakistani boys coming to die in kashmir...but what can we do...what can we poor pakistanis do...its all the Englishmens` fault. ``

To answer your points in full and with the restoration of the fire & fury I lacked in my last post. It is the Pakistanis who have to do the hard work, it is us who have to make sense of the different directions our countrymen are going towards. It is for the liberal to take these times as the omen of the much worst times to come,if we keep disengaging from the masses based on our fear of the beard. It is for the Beards to stop running themselves astray on the word of god said by men dastardly trying to achieve their personal, polemical, or political aims. It is for the Maulvis to try and commit to a future and stop trying to live in the past. But if you ignore the Englishmen`s complicity and more the American Man`s in our current times (80s Afghan War) then you are also forgetting the importance of the complicity of History and reactions to foreign vested interests. To counter this and thus the most important requirement from Pakistanis is produce leaders who are not dependent upon foreign or domestic(read feudal) support, who are true leaders and have at their hearts the indepth understanding and passion for the nation and not self serving requirements.

I know all you wanted to hear was me to say yes its only the Pakistanis who ought to blame themselves, and to a large extent you are right, but unfortunately the weakness in our political structure and the moral fibre of the intelligentsia we have made to become dependent on the Washington`s and the London`s. Offcourse ``freedom`` and ``democracy`` in this American Century comes with the added bonus of complete and utter ascription to the American Interests. If you feel my arguments are still focused on the ``foreign`` question more than the domestic, my only contention would be, As a people our history and our future in this world is intertwined in the most exquiste and terrible of ways. There is always a chain of events, from the Invasion carried out since the 1900s to Sep 11 when those 19 Bstrds flew those planes into the towers. It is when you stop looking at the chain and just the result, will we fail to solve the issue that really needs solving. How Power can nurture a Better or Worst Future for the collective fate of this world.
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#26 Posted by jay on December 20, 2003 11:05:59 pm
anew,

There is no point in quoting from a book. What one has to look at is the operational islam, islam as it is practiced. All of the views and emphasis of you and tahmed are mere academic niceties, rejected by the rulers and practitioners of the religion.

Look at pakistan, it has banned new year celebrations, because it is kaferian. You are reading koran like a book and quoting, there is no point, what is important is the operational religion. As book it is no different from the zillions of others. As a holy book when people tend to practice what is written, then one has to look at the what is practiced. Islam is a religion that guides the actions of billions, and their actions are important. Sorry, you could not ask atta about what is important in the book.
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#25 Posted by wajahat on December 20, 2003 10:37:52 am
Due to some personal events, the fire and fury within me is in respite. I felt, in this state my replies could become more philosophical in their content which might be more painful to the interactor than my political views:) But due to my subscription to the ethics of writing, I shall try to answer two of the queries brought forward.

Zahra J,

``Out of sheer curiosity, where do you reside in reference to the planet earth ?``

I apologise for the jovial nature of my reply and it is by no means an insult to your query. I reside in land of mediocrity, with one foot in each of Mani`s world, and thus share the blame for both. My personal ambition is to challenge both the Western and the Eastern Idealogue and thus on this board I manage to Piss both anew and ironman off. Hipocrite, you contend, on the contrary, Zahra, I think its time to build those bridges that we keep building and breaking by the incestuous nature of our beliefs, hates and Idealogies. Why take a side when both sides are wrong to a certain extent.

And then I ask you, Dont you feel that this world cannot be divided into a manichean model as that Bush seems to be doing. That good and evil are too simple a definition of the complexities of this world?

And the following is by a person through whose writings I was able to find this middleground. This also goes out to ironman, who has decided that my writings are quite childish really and thus questionable, I hope the following lines from Edwards Said might answer your question more aptly.

Intellectual responsibility, however, requires a still more critical sense of the actuality. There has been terror of course, and nearly every struggling modern movement at some stage has relied on terror. This was as true of Mandela`s ANC as it was of all the others, Zionism included. And yet bombing defenceless civilians with F-16s and helicopter gunships has the same structure and effect as more conventional nationalist terror.

What is bad about all terror is when it is attached to religious and political abstractions and reductive myths that keep veering away from history and sense. This is where the secular consciousness has to try to make itself felt, whether in the US or in the Middle East. No cause, no God, no abstract idea can justify the mass slaughter of innocents, most particularly when only a small group of people are in charge of such actions and feel themselves to represent the cause without having a real mandate to do so.

Besides, much as it has been quarrelled over by Muslims, there isn`t a single Islam: there are Islams, just as there are Americas. This diversity is true of all traditions, religions or nations even though some of their adherents have futiley tried to draw boundaries around themselves and pin their creeds down neatly. Yet history is far more complex and contradictory than to be represented by demagogues who are much less representative than either their followers or opponents claim. The trouble with religious or moral fundamentalists is that today their primitive ideas of revolution and resistance, including a willingness to kill and be killed, seem all too easily attached to technological sophistication and what appear to be gratifying acts of horrifying retaliation. The New York and Washington suicide bombers seem to have been middle-class, educated men, not poor refugees. Instead of getting a wise leadership that stresses education, mass mobilisation and patient organisation in the service of a cause, the poor and the desperate are often conned into the magical thinking and quick bloody solutions that such appalling models pro vide, wrapped in lying religious claptrap.

On the other hand, immense military and economic power are no guarantee of wisdom or moral vision. Sceptical and humane voices have been largely unheard in the present crisis, as `America` girds itself for a long war to be fought somewhere out there, along with allies who have been pressed into service on very uncertain grounds and for imprecise ends. We need to step back from the imaginary thresholds that separate people from each other and re-examine the labels, reconsider the limited resources available, decide to share our fates with each other as cultures mostly have done, despite the bellicose cries and creeds.

`Islam` and `the West` are simply inadequate as banners to follow blindly. Some will run behind them, but for future generations to condemn themselves to prolonged war and suffering without so much as a critical pause, without looking at interdependent histories of injustice and oppression, without trying for common emancipation and mutual enlightenment seems far more wilful than necessary. Demonisation of the Other is not a sufficient basis for any kind of decent politics, certainly not now when the roots of terror in injustice can be addressed, and the terrorists isolated, deterred or put out of business. It takes patience and education, but is more worth the investment than still greater levels of large-scale violence and suffering. ``

Source:http://observer.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,6903,552764,00.html
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#24 Posted by anew on December 20, 2003 9:21:48 am
#23 by jay on December 20, 2003 8:15am PT

How popular is the practice of making fun of Jihad (holy war) & Shaeeds (Martyrs)!

But how many of us know that there is absolutely no question of waging war for compelling people to embrace Islam - that would be an unholy war.

The life of the Prophet provides reference to only three kinds of wars: defensive, punitive and preventive.

In a celebrated correspondence with the Emperor Heraclius of Byzantium, in connection with the assassination of a Muslim ambassador in the Byzantine territory, the Prophet proposed three alternatives:

``Embrace Islam - if not, then pay the jizyah tribute . . . if not, then do not interfere between thy subjects and Islam if these former desire to embrace Islam or pay the jizyah``.

To establish liberty of conscience in the world was the aim and object of the struggle of the Prophet Muhammad, and who may have a greater authority in Islam than he?

This is the ``holy war`` of the Muslims, the one that is undertaken not for the purposes of exploitation, but in a spirit of sacrifice, its sole object being to make the Word of God prevail. All else is illegal.

But do Muslims of so-called Muslim states have “liberty of conscience”? Is the “Word of God” prevailing in their countries? Why they don’t first start an Internal Jihad to restore their liberty of conscience and establish Word of God on themselves and their societies?

How a dirty person can run a “Cleanness Campaign”?
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#23 Posted by jay on December 20, 2003 8:15:41 am
Overcrowding in heavens,

I have added another god to the two million or so of the hindu gods. I am now convinced that why this fence has come up across the jihadic frontiers now, after more than a 1000 years of islam.

It has to do with over crowding in the heavens. In the last decade the shaheeds have increased many fold, new ones being from chechniya, kashmir and the philippines and indonesia. At last the god of jihadic heaven has decided to act, and he being the all powerful has asked for the walls so that shaheed trips to heaven is readuced.
Also of consequence is the women shaheeds, prohibited all these years, but has started now, and my gusess is the second generation shaheeds of heaven are creating havec.

Accept the fence as the work of the jihadic god. If you do do not accept it, god might change the reverved status of shaheeds.
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#22 Posted by ironman on December 19, 2003 6:16:40 pm
#20 by wajahat,

Listen kid, if you put your opinions into an article and lay it on this frying pan called chowk...expect to be fried, on both sides, OK! Much better writers have been grilled here.

Your article is typically pakistani. Anyone can see that from a mile. America is to blame, israel is to blame, UK is to blame...

What about pakistan? Not one mention. Oh! but there is...sideways as usual.

Yeeesss! We all know there are these training camps...these recruitment centers in Lahore...money collection for jihad...young pakistani boys coming to die in kashmir...but what can we do...what can we poor pakistanis do...its all the Englishmens` fault.

First try to solve your (pakistan`s) fence problem. Then give these sermons.

Anyways...I was just contesting one point (only one) in your article. Your contention that brain-washing is no factor in suicide bombing.

- - - - - -

Read this, by your fellow countrywoman Nasra Hassan.

AN ARSENAL OF BELIEVERS, Talking to the ``human bombs.``
by NASRA HASSAN

http://newyorker.com/PRINTABLE/?fact/011119fa_FACT1

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#21 Posted by ZahraJ on December 19, 2003 1:04:15 pm
Wajahat:

Out of sheer curiosity, where do you reside in reference to the planet earth ?
I ask that since there is something in your writings that makes me wonder a few things.

[The West thus is populated with those everlasting diseases of Racism and Orientalism and majorities in East it seems prefer history to the future.]

Each culture has its own pros and cons. I, as an individual, prefer the above mentioned western diseases over the deplorable mindset of the eastern intellectuals! No offense intended, I have a strong aversion to the above mentioned eastern mindset and leanings.





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#20 Posted by anew on December 19, 2003 9:01:22 am
#18 by wajahat on December 18, 2003 7:56am PT

So nice of you for being patient. I have no choice left but to appreciate your understanding of Islam and acceptance of Mullah. We should all condemn extremist, fascistic Islamists who does not resemble us. I apologize if I hurt you for asking not to find excuses for being a Muslim. Actually we should only feel shame if someone thinks of us an extremist, fascist and fundamentalist Muslim. We are the enlightened Liberal Muslims who are patient with the violent non-believers.

I am also hiring a Mullah to read Quran which effects us as human beings and teaches us about how Muslims should communicate with other Muslims.

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#19 Posted by wajahat on December 19, 2003 9:01:22 am
#12 ironman

In this world dispositions are everything ironman. As you nonchalantly refer to that suicide bomber with his kids in his arms, and give us the undeniable proof of the evil of Islamic Suicide Bombings. I feel terribly sad that you are one more in those line of Westerners who cannot see that every action has a reaction. That every attrocity will have a counter attrocity. Do not see this as an apology for Suicide bombing, but the reality of our world. Man will rise and fight with whatever they find at their disposal. They always have and they always will, and it wont always be as pretty as you like. The west can send armies upon armies into regions on the name of Democratisation of those regions, but to those who have already lived through centuries of these imperial expeditions and those who have always been on the wrong end of the White Man`s Burden, this is just another ploy to undermine nations for the needs and requirements of Imperialist Experiments, Zionism being one of them. I think the denial of ascribing the same level of Humanity to races is a problem you need to deal with and on an urgent basis rather the naming and shaming which seems to be your prefered modus operandi.
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#18 Posted by wajahat on December 18, 2003 7:56:04 am
# 14 anew

``Don`t feel ashame of yourself being a Muslim``

Anew, I have been nothing but civil to you in our various interactions but I can see that you prefer to be crude in your exchanges and specially when commenting upon other`s opinion. I am a Muslim, neither better nor worse than you. If you feel that you are a better muslim than me than do not forget that it is Allah who decides this based on our actions. As far as your statement goes do not ever dare for the fear of God to tell anyone that they are ashamed of Islam. It is infuriating and angering beyond description. I will not let myself fall on the course of returned abuse but I must confess that you should also read a little from the Quran about how Muslims should communicate with other Muslims.

As Far as you reference to the Mullah is concerned, it is the Mullah who says the prayers 5 times a day, it is the Mullah who prays in the ears of the first born, it is the Mullah who teaches us as kids to read Quran which effects us as human beings. Any Muslim Society is nowhere without the Mullah. The Mullah versus Liberal Mentality I was refering to , was the extremist, fascistic Islamists who will condemn everyone and everything who does not resemble them. Does Islam not talk about patience and understanding, Huzoor PBUH remained patient and reasoned with the most violent of the non believers, he changed them by his actions. If you are a Muslim and by your extremely long posts, are trying to convert us, then I must confess I do not think that your personal rhetoric and exchange show any composition of the true qualities of a Muslim Momin.

Learn to be a little patient and less vitriolic.
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#17 Posted by jay on December 18, 2003 1:47:44 am
Suicide bombers,

Pakistan is objecting to the
fence, why. Any how pakistan and india are two different countries, they need visas. No one is supposed to walk across, except for the jihadists, of course no jihadist is coming across to india.

Well the fence changes the status of the border, how, in any case no one is supposed to cross it. This article is the kind of crass thinking of the pak elite.
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#16 Posted by jay on December 18, 2003 1:47:44 am
p[athways to heaven,

India trained bangladeshis to make them the mukti bahini. India trained the LTTE. That did not make the entire country a land of killers. It did not create the kalashnikov culture in india.
In the case of pakistan, a feww afghans traiuned by the US made the entire country a land of the killers. No that doesnt make sense, the propensity was always there and the US simply acclerated it. A nation created in the name of TNT cannot become anything else, jihadic republic of.
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