Enduring Operation Freedom

``frankly, we don`t need lectures on defending Western civilization from those whose very defense has been a gift from us, the American taxpayers, since the beginning of the Second World War``

Gratitude doesnt appear to be a Canadian virtue.

re # 25 digit

Methinks, thou protesteth too much. Don`t take my word about Liberal incompetence on the Kazemi issue. Here is a statement from Rick Norland, head of the Northumberland Riding Canadian Alliance association:

What can Canadians Expect from the Liberals When Travelling Abroad?
Apparently, not much… especially if you find yourself wrongfully imprisoned or tortured. Some high-profile cases have made it plain that the Liberals` doctrine of ``soft power`` and ``constructive engagement`` when dealing with brutish foreign regimes is falling short when it comes to protecting our citizens. Zahra Kazemi, an Iranian-Canadian photojournalist, was beaten to death in custody in Tehran, and ``constructive engagement`` has resulted in two charges laid temporarily, then dropped. We don`t know if anyone will ever be brought to justice for this murder.

Canadian William Sampson was tortured while imprisoned in Saudi Arabia for more than two years. His take on the help he received from Canadian officials? ``(They) were of neither use nor bloody ornament in the entire procedure through which I went,`` Sampson said. It`s time Liberals learned what it means to stand on guard for Canada. It`s time for them to fight for our citizens at home and abroad.<<

Speaking of ad hominems, you`re one who first questioned my integrity and then called me a hypocrite. I never get into personal insults unless egregiously provoked first.

``You are ready to `defend` Western civilization yet refuse to apply the values it claims to hold supreme.``

Our cities were turned into graveyards on 9/11/01; 3,000 of our brothers, sisters, and co-workers were killed in cold blood that day: frankly, we don`t need lectures on defending Western civilization from those whose very defense has been a gift from us, the American taxpayers, since the beginning of the Second World War.

re 23

Please correct ``export a little over 60 % of our exports to us`` to read ``export a little over 60 % of YOUR exports to us``

sigalph235 wrote:

``The nonchalant, appeasing attitude about the imprisonment, torture, and murder of Zahra Kazemi proves my point with more integrity than the Canadian government and its America-bashing apologists are capable of handling.``

What nonchalant and appeasing attitude are you talking about? In no way shape or form do I accept the death of Kazemi, although you seem to want to believe so for lack of any real argument. There is no room for ad homenim here...as I said it`s not at all difficult to understand the difference between the Kazemi and Arar case. One begins with the Iranians, the other with the Canadians/Americans.

We expect ``murderous`` regimes to turn a blind eye to ...well...murder. However those who claim the higher ground must be held accountable with respect to their own standards. Maher Arar`s deportation to Syria was not a blunder...it was an intentional move with a particular purpose in mind. He could have just as easily been jailed in the US or Canada. I call to your attention the 19 or so Pakistan+1 Indian youth who were (wrongly) held here recently on what turned out to be baseless suspicion.

You are ready to `defend` Western civilization yet refuse to apply the values it claims to hold supreme. There are words for such people...``hypocrite`` comes to mind...

re stuka 20
Yeash, that was a bit unfair on a personal level I suppose. But actually Mel Carnahan passed away about nine days before the election. As for name change, Missouri state law doesn`t allow any changes on the ballot after the 30th day before the election date(Mrs Carnahan was elected on a write-in vote). The general election dates are fixed by a co-reading of state law and federal law which means, inte alia, that general elections to the next Congress cannot be held any LATER than the first Tuesday after the first Monday of November. So, our buddy John Ashcroft didn`t have much of a choice.

BTW, I think he is a brilliant man (you don`t go to Ivy League by being an idiot) and a reasonably good author. Compared to his predecessor as MO senator (Fr. John Danforth), however, Ashcroft is an intellectual and moral pygmie. Personally, I find his arrogance towards Congress and his political opponents to be quite disturbing. I sure hope that in the second term of `W`, Mr. Ashcroft is sent back to Missouri to live his happy retirement, protesting in front of abortion clinics and getting picked up under the Patriot Act.

re digit 21

The nonchalant, appeasing attitude about the imprisonment, torture, and murder of Zahra Kazemi proves my point with more integrity than the Canadian government and its America-bashing apologists are capable of handling.

You guys watch our TV shows, are defended by our NORAD, export a little over 60 % of our exports to us, play in our sports leagues..the list goes on. And then this kind of attitude, about which Shakespeare`s rigtly said

``Blow, blow though winter wind,
Thou art not so unkind
As man`s ingratitude``

Arar`s removal to Syria was an exercise in discretion, perhaps a very poor judgement call but not entirely inconsistent with the fact that he was a DUAL citizen which meant that, at the discretion of the officer concerned, he could have sent back to Syria or Canada.

Sigalph wrote:

[You`re stretching it thin to cover up for latent America-bashing. When Canada doesn`t overtly do anything about the Arar case, it is `ineptitude in the face of American zealotry` and when Canada doesn`t do anything about a bunch of real zealots murdering Kazemi it is what? Moral uprightness?]

``America-bashing`` is a meaningless grievance. I have a particular qualm with the American government over this particular incident, and am by no means indulging in a general rant. So please...show an ounce of integrity.

The difference between Arar`s case and Kazemi`s case is not difficult to understand. Kazemi want to Iran on her own free will. She was murdered there. The Canadian government could not prevent that. As for follow-up, certainly the Canadians could have pushed their case a bit more aggressively, however in the end Canada has no real leverage over Iran to push them to do anything.

On the other hand, in Arar`s case, he was actively expelled to Syria (for some Syrian-style interrogation) by the Americans - America is a country with close ties to Canada from what I hear - when normal procedure would have him sent back to Canada. There is suspicion that Canadian law enforcement and government officials tacitly supported this action.

If I`m American-bashing, then I`m Canadian-bashing too. If criticizing a hypocritical American policy (namely handing people over to states they declare `rogue` nations for intelligence gathering) is American-bashing, then I actively encourage it.

[The interests of Canada and the US, and indeed for that matter Europe, lie together for as Europeans and even Saudis are finding out, appeasement never gets you rid of the
monster.]

*Sigh*. I have some rhetoric of my own for you.

Canada can look after her own interests without them being defined for her from abroad, thank you. The only ones we have been appeasing thus far are the Americans...we`ve had to put up with a lot of crap...flak for not going to Iraq (phew), an alleged border security problem to the extent that we’re considering costly measures to address this non-issue, harassment and torture of our citizens...


[Western civilization, and Canada is an integral part thereof, is under attack and the enemy is not the US. Mollifying murderers in Tehran, coddling Communists in Havana, and appeasing PLO thugs is not going to make Canada any safer, in the long run. ]

The murders in Tehran, the old toothless communist in Havana, and an equally old an toothless Arab in the occupied lands is not an immediate threat to Canada, or anyone else in the West. A reckless super power who is not shy of throwing her weight around - inventing threats to get her way no less - is a grave menace to the world...

Now that`s good old fashion America-bashing...or more properly neo-con-bashing. But of course, nowadays I suppose the only ``true`` American is a neo-con.

Sigalph:

(come on, the guy lost his election to a dead man!).

C`mon, that is below the belt. Ashcroft lost the election precisely because Mel Callahan had died the previous day in an air crash and his widow won the sympathy vote. It was to Ashcroft`s credit that he did not ask for a postponement or a name change on the ballot which was his due right. I had just moved out of the St Louis suburbs when the election happened and by all accounts it was going to be a close race.

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re digit
``And unlike the Kazemi case, this one involves Canadian ineptitude in the face of American zealotry.``

You`re stretching it thin to cover up for latent America-bashing. When Canada doesn`t overtly do anything about the Arar case, it is `ineptitude in the face of American zealotry` and when Canada doesn`t do anything about a bunch of real zealots murdering Kazemi it is what? Moral uprightness?

Don`t get me wrong, I have the highest regard for Canada and its gentle, welcoming culture; in fact my brother lives there. I agree that Canadians are rightly upset by the seeming ease with which certain Canadian ministers (specially the Atty Gen, TransportCanada, Sheila Copps etc) go out of there way to please the whims of our own loser Atty Gen(come on, the guy lost his election to a dead man!). That said, it is greatly troubling to me that so many amongst the Canadian intellentsia have a pathologocical need, like toddlers almost, to find something somewhere to blame America for. It is as if they have to do it just to sustain a raison d`etre for Canada (almost like many right-wing Pakistanis vis-a-vis India).

The interests of Canada and the US, and indeed for that matter Europe, lie together for as Europeans and even Saudis are finding out, appeasement never gets you rid of the monster. Western civilization, and Canada is an integral part thereof, is under attack and the enemy is not the US. Mollifying murderers in Tehran, coddling Communists in Havana, and appeasing PLO thugs is not going to make Canada any safer, in the long run.

Terrorism and Canada

It is the nature of foreign terrorists to take root in soft societies. Soft societies let alien terrorists operate relatively unhindered. These societies can become either bases for the launching of violent terrorist attacks on other societies, sources of new recruits into violent religious cults, or operating theaters for pseudo ideologists dedicated to defending terrorism.

With 9//11 seeing exodus of many terrorists, supporters of terrorism, and some innocent non terrorists from the US to Canada, Canada is headed down a dangerous path. Sooner or later it wil have to make the choice that the UK is having to make - decide between embracing terrorism - as the middle eastern countries have done - and realistic enlightenment that speaks to terrorists in the only language they understand - that of an uncompromising iron fist.

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I think Shahid makes a valid case for the censorship. A censorship is censorship whether it is imposed by a government institution or by a publically funded institution. It is not fair to judge censorship that is imposed in Western societies by the parameters that are applicable to third world countries. In Third World countries, it is usually the government that controls everything from sports to media and from business to God so the censorship is more visible and well defined. Whereas in Western societies, most of the institutions are publically or privately owned with minimum government interference, so the line between true censorship and the so called freedom of speech are blurry but censorship exists. When government imposes a censorship it does so because some vested interests of the interest- group(s) in the government are at stake. And when a public or private institution instills a censorship, it does so because the vested interests of interest-groups within the organization are at stake. Telling the truth and doing the right thing will always cost man. And that is the reason that Jihad is forever.

Romair#6

`
And if there are as numerous as you claim, then why don`t they just blow up things in Canada?
`

There are other nation (like Turkey..) to take care of before mosad works on Canada.

sigalph wrote

``And by the way, since Arar is mentioned, how come there is no mention of the Canadian journalist who was killed inside a prison in Iran? Bashing America makes juicier reading doesn`t it? ``

The death of Zahra Kazemi was big news here. It`s somewhat `stale` news since there is no change in the status of that story. The Arar story is relatively recent. And unlike the Kazemi case, this one involves Canadian ineptitude in the face of American zealotry. This one involves `our` government and law enforcement agencies, not those of a known corrupt regime. This has nothing to do with `America Bashing` - although America does deserve to be bashed in light of its actions.