Yesterday’s Failures are Today’s Successes

Re: # 167

I think that is Wolpert saying it... but ok.

I agree with the RBI`s cautious approach re. FII and rupee convertibility, but I think Finance is taking a gamble as far as its thinking re. deficit. A bit of a highter deficit could be tolerated, especially if it is treated as capital investment in infrastructure but, beyond a point, it will crowd out private investments and raise interest rates. [I admit it is not happening now!]

India may learn to live with its deficit
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/EL16Df02.html

``...India is both worried as well as euphoric by the floods of continued FII investment at a daily average of $65.08 million. The government justifies its plan for an investment cap on FIIs as a precaution against a repeat of what led to the economic downturn in Southeast Asia in 1997. The Reserve Bank of India, the country`s central bank, advised the Finance Ministry not to raise the ceiling of FIIs beyond $1 billion, against a demand to raise it to $9 billion. Banking sources reveal that FII investment has already crossed $1 billion - or 20 percent of the portfolio investment of $5 billion this year.

Apparently, the government intends to avoid any international financial scandal to rock the investment boat while holding the key to close the tap in case of a reverse flow of capital or a run on the capital market. In addition, both the Reserve Bank of India and the Ministry of Finance are making it clear that corporate accountability and audits have to be strictly followed.

Despite a fast-growing investment climate, India is refusing the capital market and full convertibility of the rupee for the same reason, and insisting on limiting external commercial borrowings by Indian companies to $4.5 billion. This almost equals the FII investment in the country, although government economists say that the analogy is unrelated. Many Indian companies are taking advantage of the delay to impose a cap on external borrowing and raising capital abroad as fast as they can. The Bangalore-based Sterlite group, for instance, has already raised $1 billion and is planning to raise another $2 billion from the overseas market.

The decision to provide nearly $6.6 billion in annual budget support to poorly developed areas for building expressways and other infrastructure will bolster the states` budgets, but land the central government with a huge deficit to the tune of $38.4 billion, which the central government will have to raise or borrow to touch the highest India has ever invested in roads and other infrastructure. ..``

And Mr Humayun Gauhar thinks Nehru had an inferiority complex :).

http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/Dec-2003/14/EDITOR/op1.asp

``...I recently lunched with Jinnah’s biographer Professor Stanley Wolpert and asked him why in his opinion did Nehru really reject the Cabinet Mission Plan. Was it the popular view that Nehru felt that Pakistan was unviable, would soon collapse and return to the bosom of Mother India on its knees in abject surrender. Thereafter the Muslims wouldn’t raise their heads for a long time. No, said Wolpert, Nehru thought that Jinnah and his Muslims were a headache and the only cure was to cut off the head to get rid of the headache. Nehru had said as much.

He didn’t like Jinnah, to put it mildly. He wanted him out so that he could rule India unchallenged. When Mountbatten took Gandhi’s proposal to him that Jinnah be asked to become independent India’s first prime minister, Nehru remarked, “the old man has lost it.” The notion of subordination to Jinnah was anathema to him. Rather that Jinnah and his followers go their own way. There is much in what Professor Wolpert says. That Nehru disliked Mr. Jinnah intensely is no secret. The feeling was naturally reciprocated. Some would go so far as to say that Nehru felt a sense of intellectual inferiority in Jinnah’s presence. “But thank God for Pakistan,” I said to Wolpert. “Despite our mostly self-inflicted wounds, we are much better off compared to India’s Muslims. Thank you, Mr. Nehru.”

This thread is almost at an end. I thank everyone who participted in this dicussion and kept it at a high level.
It was perhaps inevitable that the discussion would lead to an appraisal of Nehru`s legacy, even though that was not the purpose of the article - another illustration of the law of unintended consequences. There was a time, not long ago, when it was almost a blasphemy to criticise Nehru`s legacy. When Narsimha Rao and Manmohan Singh took a 180-degree turn in economic direction, both of them were at pains to deny any suggestion that they were giving up on Nehru`s socialism. Unfortunately, the pendulum has swung to the other extreme now; there is a tendency to ignore the many solid contributions of Nehru to the founding of a modern India. It`s for nothing that his `tryst with destiny` is still the most quoted speech of any Indian leader both at home and abroad by english-speaking Indians. Some posters, like rsridhar, sadna and Faruk have reminded us of his great contributions. He, along with Gandhi, was responsible for preventing the riots-inducing communal virus from spreading beyond Panjab and restoring communal peace in the country following the mayhem caused by the partition. He gave India a gold-plated constitution which can stand as a benchmark for other constitutions. He gave us forward looking institutions for a modern, secular, democratic state and brought in many worthy social reforms, such as land reforms and the Hindu Code Bill. Above all, he represented rational thinking at a time when superstition and obscurancy prevailed. It is that rational thinking that lets someone like me, who wouldn`t be today where he is but for the policies pursued by Nehru, to be able to criticise some of the same polcies.

Re : dost-mittar # 150
“ `` Nehru’s focus was not the economy, it was nation building.``
I think that you are being ungenerous to Nehruji. He had his sights set on economic planning long before India became independent. Indeed, one of the reasons that he did not accept Jinnah`s idea of a loose confederation was that it would have interfered with his economic program for an independent India.”

Well Nehru’s focus was not on increasing per capita income and other economic indicators we live by today. He focused on long term investments in Dams, nuclear power, institutions etc. that paid rich dividends many years later. The judiciary, the press, other watch dog institutions strengthened our democracy. The institutions of higher learning and research labs built a culture of excellence and transformed our society. You can call this economic planning in a sense I guess.

Regards,

Faruk

veeresh:
Thanks! Hope to see you next month:-).

www.cactuswings.com seems to have a comprehensive list of all planes currently in storage in the US. United seems to have mothballed a lot of 747-400s.

http://pro.corbis.com/search/searchFrame.asp shows photos are planes parked in the desert. Top row, 2nd from left shows 747s with engines wrapped in shrouds.

Dost Mittar # 161 . . . the private airlines in India can buy/dry lease as many aircraft as they want for domestic flights as their own commercial good sense will permit. Jet Airways is stuck with some high cost pre-9/11 lease and purchases, and have delayed picking up the Embraer small jets. Air Sahara on the other hand has capitalised with the post 9/11 low cost scenario and has picked up B-737 as well as CRJ aircraft on a variety of excellent erms.

harmau:
Are private Indian airlines like jet and sahara also prevented from buying these mothballed planes by the bureaucrats?

Ref jay #156

The mothballed fleet outside Tucson increased in size after Sep 11, 2003 when US airlines cut more than a third of their flights due to the slump in demand.

Aircraft there are maintained in two conditions. The first and more expensive one is where the engines are powered up and all systems are checked out frequently (monthly?). These planes are in a ``ready to fly`` condition. The second is where the planes are mothballed and require a bit, not a whole lot, of work to be ready to fly.

While it is true that second-hand airliners require maintenance, it is no more than the maintenance that any airliner would need once you have them in your fleet. You are also right about the planes being cut up for parts but that is not always the case.

These storage yards also are the destination when an airline goes bankrupt like Eastern, Braniff, PanAm, etc., did.

Buying used airliners is certainly a worthwhile option and one followed by PeoplExpress as I pointed out.

http://www.wompom.ca/news/AR2003SEP12.HTM

NUMBERS OF JETLINERS FLYING CREEPS HIGHER

The empty jetliners that land at the obscure desert airfields at Mojave, California, Victorville, California, or Marana, Arizona, where they undergo regularly scheduled maintenance in good economic times and are mothballed in bad, provide a clue about the fortunes of the nation`s airline industry.

A glance shows more promise than any time since the New York incidents. About 200 commercial airliners remain in storage at Mojave Airport, compared with 310 a little more than a year ago, the peak.

‘Aircraft don`t come here to die,’ said Vern Alexander, marketing director for AVTEL Services, a contract maintenance operation at Mojave that also preserves aircraft and parts for sale or reuse.

The picture is similar at a former Air Force base in Victorville, Calif., where Cold War-era F-100s, F-104s and F-106s have been supplanted by Boeing 737, 747 and 757 airliners.

‘More airliners are flying out than are coming in these days,’ said John White, vice president of Southern California Aviation at Victorville.

That trend began six months ago, when some airlines began to restore aircraft for the peak summer season.

Dost-Mittar ji # 158 . . . as with many issues related to progress in India, simple things like a link from an IndGovt website to that run by its subsidiary could and does involve vast issues of Unions . . . believe me, IR is aware of this. IRCTC is just like any other agent that the IR have, I hope you will understand this complex . . . thing?

veeresh, harimou:
I am a fan of railways in general and Indina Railways in particular. Their website is very good and informative. But it still seems to be work in progress. Their main website does not provide link for on-line booking. For that, one has to go to another sote run by Indian railway catering and tourism service. Hopefully, someone will think of adding a link on the home page of the main website.

````The great thing about Nehru is: his heart was in the right place. He strove for a democratic and secular India. Today`s India cannot hope to progress if it turns its back on secularism. I see a great threat to secularism today even as India is on its path towards material progress. `` ``(sridhar)

bravo -- this is called giving the credit where it really belongs....for modernizing India

Harimau 154,

One of the reaosns why the aircraft are parked is the heavy discounts offered by the manufacturer along with power by the hour offered by the engine manufacturer. Thses lucrative deals are not available for old aircraft.
It is unlikely that there are large number of aircraft less than 10 years old parked. In ten years, the a/c would have done neary 25,000 hours of flying and is due for a major maintenance action, typically called a D check, with a/c on ground for nearly 6 months for a B747. The same of true for engines where a large number of life limited discs will have to be changed. Typically a set of new discs or rotating elemets can cost nearly 50 percent of a new engine taking into account the discounts available for new engines.

It is a common practice for even some large airlines to remove new engines from new aircraft, dis assemble them and sell as spares. If one adds up the catelogue price of parts, it will be more than three times the price of the engine. This is another fact of life that the buyers of old aircraft have to face, as the older engines will be due for overhaul and parts to be purchased at catalogue prices. New engines, if everything goes well should run for at least 3 years with out any problems.

There are also issues regarding modification standards. In conclusion the decision to go for new aircraft by the indians is perfect, very sound and logical. The final proof is that Pakistanis are buying second hand aircraft, what more you need as proof.

Dostmitter 145

The incentive, the most significant was the credit guarantee, which made the world of difference. When the latin american countries on the capitalist model stumbled from debt crisis to debt crisis, taiwan and korea forged a head. One can only imagine what a credit guaratee by the Us govy means to the ineterst rate.

While quoting taiwan and korea, people never bother to wonder, how come these two countries in east asia are role models for the world, while all of the latin american countries with their resource richness, low population and almost complete westernisation has failed.

May be time to rered dependensia theory, Samir Amin comes to mind.

Wasn`t somebody talking about what a wonderful job the Government of India is doing trading in metals, etc.?

I was talking to a guy who now works in the private sector after having worked for Oil & Natural Gas Commission (ONGC). I mentioned the fact that by the mid-80s when oil prices had crashed, offshore drilling rigs were parked off the coast of Louisiana and were going for an annual rent of $1 and asked if ONGC managed to snare any good deals. His response was that India is known for beginning the negotiations when the prices were low and settling on a contract a couple of years later when the prices would be high and this is precisely what had happened.

You can see the whole thing being played out all over again. Air India and Indian Airlines are going through their usual master-baiting process of trying to get the Ministry of Civil Aviation to let them buy planes. These would of course be brand-new ones which they would manage to fkkk up in no time at all. Right now there are about 500 planes sitting on the ground outside Tucson, Arizona which are anywhere from 2 to 20 years old. You could pick up almost new 747`s, 737`s, etc., and the airlines who own them (or have leased them from banks and GE or Pratt&Whitney) would be happy to sub-lease them to anybody. Do we do it? NO.

I remember flying PeoplExpress for #19, $29, $39 and $49 in the US. Their planes were 20-year-old 737s bought on the cheap. I remember on some planes those NO SMOKING and FASTEN SEAT BELT signs weren`t even in English! That is how you run an airline. Our babus are probably fretting that the signs aren`t in Hindi.

When those idiots in the Central Government were trying to impose Hindi on the South, my viewpoint was learning Hindi would be a very good thing; they should start it in Bihar, UP and Madhya Pradesh where of course they couldn`t read or write Hindi with their abysmal literacy levels.

Ref veeresh #133

[Layman #92 . . . you are correct, computerised tickets are not available from all the small hamlets, but the Indian Railways are getting there.

Let me put it this way, just yesterday, at New Delhi, I had the option of buying a platform ticket for 3/- rupees from a human being, for which I got the standard spec card ticket, or from a machine, for which I got a small printout receipt. There is also a soon-to-be introduced platform ticket cum weighing machine weight + fortune deal for all of 5/-.

Likewise, you can log in right now to the IR website from anywhere in the world and buy your train ticket. You can go to increasing numbers of stations, where there are terminals, at last count about 9000 of them, and buy unreserved or reserved journey tickets.]

And in Chennai, you can buy your tickets using your mobile phone. The tickets get delivered to your door and -- get this, this is a major departure for our babudom -- the ticket price is charged to your mobile phone bill! You don`t need a credi card!

Dear Ahmadzai, Urdu`s absorption in Pakistan came at the cost of its integrity.

Just when India was making a quick transition to the market economy, Pakistan chose to spreahead the Jihad against USSR in service of USA. Again at what cost?

As far back as 1980, Pakistan was producing music systems for Audi cars, Micro and Mangoe computers, exporting chips to the Silicon Valley and making telecommunication equipment for giants like Siemens. Unfortunately, those factories today give a desrted look. What happened?

Dost mittar`s article is indeed thought provoking reflected in the number of interacts.

Dost Mittar ji,

I came quite late, and read the interesting discussion going on.
You have chosen perhaps one of the most relevant themes/issues about india`s past and its effect on the present. Nehru and his policies seem to be the butt of all jokes by contemporary indians. Being a product of one of the institutes he envisioned, I have over the years developed high respect for him. Let me give you an example...

The concept behind opening REC`s across india is a prime example of his vision. Every REC in the country has seats reserved for students from all states in india. Number of students from each state in an REC is proportional to its population ( though merit based). The net result is an institution of excellent standards whose secondary objective is to educate indians on the diversity of language, culture and race from across india. While studying in such an institute one feels like he/she is in mini-india and able to appreciate the spectrum of diversity. By putting together such a diverse group of people, who are able to grow and learn together his vision makes everyone realise just one thing. How stupid are the differences that can divide people in any name.
Frankly I have not seen such a vision displayed by any other national leader of his times.
One might argue that IIT`s REC`s are drops in oceans, but nevertheless a beginning. If you look across to china as well, you do not find similar examples. I understand that the world today is obsessed with only jobs, prosperity and national pride, but I believe it has ample scope to imbibe Nehru`s humanism.


Rsridhar #135,

I think you echo the feelings of many indians of our generation. That was an excellent post.

Adios

Faruk:
`` The essence of rshridhar’s post is that we have a lot to thank Nehru for.``
...and I do not deny this at all!

`` Nehru’s focus was not the economy, it was nation building.``
I think that you are being ungenerous to Nehruji. He had his sights set on economic planning long before India became independent. Indeed, one of the reasons that he did not accept Jinnah`s idea of a loose confederation was that it would have interfered with his economic program for an independent India.

re:#143 by dost-mittar

Thanks for your post, dost-mittarji.

As i said, i am only thinking loud. I do not claim to know Nehru anymore than an average chowkie but my admiration for this man is increased when i see what happened to neighbouring Pakistan whose founding father (Jinnah) did not live long enough to consolidate his vision.
You mentioned corruption. You are right about that. Gandhiji himself had advised Congress party to be dismantled after Independence so that it did not become a monolithic vote catching machine. Perhaps Gandhiji knew the masses better than Nehru, who was a dreamer. Still, we need to give the devil its due. Nehru lent the kind of stability that a new nation needs in its formative years. One look at Pakistan convinces me that i am right in saying this.
Sridhar

re:#146 by Faruk
Thanks for your post.
I could not have put it more succinctly.
Sridhar

re:#140 by RationalFaith
Thanks.
Sridhar

Re dost-mittar # 143
The essence of rshridhar’s post is that we have a lot to thank Nehru for. You have eloquently made a case against his economic policies and his penchant for establishing public institutions and his aversion to the private sector.
Nehru’s focus was not the economy, it was nation building. He gave us a large number of institutions and the public sector when we had no industry or institutions. He built institutions of higher learning that are among the best in the world. He built the foundation of our nation and our democracy. We would not be a democracy had it not been for Nehru and the other leaders at that time.
We are reaping the benefits of his investments half a century later. These were long term investments and had to be made at a price.


Regards,

Faruk

Pankaj:
Re. ``The Commanding Heights`` written by Daniel Yergin and Joseph Stanislaw.
Is this the same book which was the basis of a PBS series of documentaries a couple of years ago?

jay#135:
``It is interesting that no one mentioned about the role played by the investment incentives and preferential trade offered by the uS to Korea and taiwan in early years, just to create a siccess model of the capitalism. ``
I, at least, am not aware of these incentives and preferential trade. Were they exclusive to these two countries?
But one could point to those two countries as an example of intelligent protectionism. The two followed different models, Korea of crony capitalism and Taiwan of unbridled small enterprise. But they both used protectionism against foreign competitors: low currency, low duties on capital goods and both tariff/non-tariff barriers against consumer goods, while encouraging competition among producers in the domestic market to create lean and mean businesses.

rsridhar:
I admire your love and admiration for chacha Nehru, we all do in a subliminal way, for after everything is said and done he was a symbol of modern India and started institutions which have surivived for more than a half century.
But I couldn`t help noticing that your post supports my hypothesis more than it negates it. When you say that ``we all need to remember that Nehru was not ``cut out`` to be a good administrator or economic planner``, you have encapsulated the essence of the problems he had. It is therefore a wonder that a nascent country survived despite being ruled for 17 years by someone who was not cut out to be a ``good administrator or economic planner``.

``The great thing about Nehru is: his heart was in the right place. He strove for a democratic and secular India. Today`s India cannot hope to progress if it turns its back on secularism. I see a great threat to secularism today even as India is on its path towards material progress. ``
..you can say that again!

``Few could have foreseen the unintended consequences of such a rigid control system viz corruption and lack of enterprise.``
I think you are on shaky grounds when you say that. India had a strong culture of bakhshish (poor man`s bribe), nazrana (rich man`s bribe) and ``oopar ki aamdani`` going all the way back to the Mughal period. It would not have taken a rocket genius to see what giving power to the bureaucrats would do; anyone familiar with the terror struck by the lowly paid village patwari could have told Nehru what license, quota, permit raj would lead to...and he was warned by people like Rajgopalachari, C.D.Deshmukh (RBI governor/Finance Minister) and others but dissenters were sidelined and replaced by fellow travellers like P.C. Mahalnobis and Krishna Menon. Do you know that at the time of independence Gokhale Insititute of Politics and Economics (the publisher of Arth Vijnan) was the most prominent statistical-economic institute in India and a natural place for starting the National Sample Survey. And yet, Indian Statistical Institute was preferred and the newly founded Delhi School of Economics and Institute of Economic Growth made the bride and bride`s maid because they were led by fellow travellers. The message went loud and clear that if you want to get anywhere, fall in line. There were still voices like that of P.S. Lokanathan who started his National Coucil of Applied Economic Research but it soon attained a pariah status in the establishment because it was funded entirely by the private sector. Nehru believed in his ideology as strongly as a follower of any blind faith.

``Once it was clear that his economic policies were a failure, leaders like Indira Gandhi and the rest should have dismantled those policies.``
...and they did, brick by brick, but it was not easy given the strong Nehruvian legacy. Lal Bahadur Shastri switched his priorities right away to agriculture with the slogan ``Jai jawan, jai kissan``. Indira Gandhi spent the first decade of her job as pm fighting divisions in her own party and then the legal battles. But following the Emergency and in her second innings she had started to have second thoughts about the policies followed. And Rajiv Gandhi really brought about a change in thinking. He brought in economists from world bank like Montek Singh Ahluwalia and Shankar Acharya who changed the mindset at Finance and Sam Pitroda who initiated the thinking in telecomminications.
Everyone calls Manmohan Singh the father of economic reforms in India, but if I were to choose one person, it would be the ``socialist`` V.P.Singh. As Rajiv Gandhi`s Finance Minister, it was he who brought in a radical change in tax structure and reduced marginal income tax from 96% to 50% (and saw the revenues increase instead of falling). Rajiv Gandhi also relished his initial reputation as `Mr. Clean` and supported Singh`s campaign of going after the `big fish` tax defaulters. However, when his operations got too close for comfort, a rift developed between the two and their parting of ways arrested the reform process.
...and lest we should forget, the Nehru legacy was so strong that even when Manmohan Singh introduced his majboori-induced reforms, he claimed that he was, in fact, not deviating from Nehru`s socialism.

Pankaj:
I think I see eye-to-eye with you on the issue of capitalism, as clarified by your #141.
(though i think that the US govt. intereferes too much in the wrong sectors and too little where it should-- even the Medicare Bill passed today-- just another payout to big Pharma companies!!)
But we know who runs the govt. there, don`t we!

PM

I also have a little knowledge of Hegel`s philosophy and I am aware of the fact that the very causes that lead to the success of a society in one age conceal the seeds of failure by ``morbid intensification`` of the very same principles. When I talk of ``laissez faire``, I do not mean the end of governence per se, but ``minimal`` interference of govt as far as possible. For once govt starts interfering with the economic activities there is no end to it. My own interpretation of ``minimal`` interference is probably at the same level as it is in USA.
Unfortunately, I am hard pressed for time till weekend:-), so we will discuss Hegel another day. Incidentally, I also believe that the greatest threat to capitalism in long term will come from super-capitalists who monopolize the markets through mergers and try to kill competition, the ``mozo`` of capitalism. There is a fantastic book on this topic.


Dost-Mittar
A very well written account of Nehruvian economics spearheaded by the ``hyper-rationalist`` P.C. Mahalonibus and the international evolution of school of economic thought can be found in the Pulitzer prize winning book ``The Commanding Heights`` written by Daniel Yergin and Joseph Stanislaw. This book places your article in proper perspective. I recommend reading it and looking at your interests, I am sure you will enjoy it.

sridhar, nasah # various

When its become fashionable to criticize Nehru, it`s good to see some people being fair to him.

Urstruly#129:
A little elaboration would be helpful. Your comment seems to be a bit tongue-in-cheek from the master of `khari-khari`!

harimou#127:
I might have underplayed somewhat my plain MA degree. It actually was a degree in economics from India`s most prestigious economics institution at a time when anybody who could spell Keynes was deemed to know the answers to all of India`s problems. And I also had done some research with well-known people like V.K.R.V. Rao and Ashis Bose.
Having said that, it is also a fact that in those days most engineers ended up getting a job with a PSU or a govt. ministry and were paid at the none-too-generous govt. pay scales.

sadna#126:
``I am almost totally ignorant of what Nehru actually said or wrote on the subject, but, IMHO in his vision for modern India, Nehru forgot that regions constituting presentday India were strong trading powers for most of history. They could not have been so without being good producers of surplus and inclined towards enterprise.``

I think it would be unfair to attribute such ignorance to Nehru. After all, he had not only read Indian history but also wrote a book on it which is oftern used as a reference/text in some courses.
I think it was more a case of his being swept by the elitist thinking during the 30s and 40s, boosted by the apparent success of the soviet palanning model. He was quite willing to combine the central planning model with democracy and use India as a laboratory for testing unproven models.

re: Nehru and his legacy
I do not agree with Dost Mitterji at all in his analysis of Nehru`s achievements. I did not belong to the Nehru era and my impressions of him were formed from what i read about him and what my dad (who is a diehard admirer of Nehru) told me.
Two things that are being thrown at Nehru as criticism are : his lack of emphasis on Primary education and his socialistic leanings.

First of all, we all need to remember that Nehru was not ``cut out`` to be a good administrator or economic planner. Much of his life was spent in agitating against the British Rule, which he and Gandhiji rightly thought, was an evil. Many people on Chowk may have forgotten but Nehru spent more than 5000 days of his life in British jail. That is a long time off and saps one`s energy and drive. Yet, some kind of conviction drove people like him and Gandhi on and on towards their goal of achieving independence from the British.
In an astronishing revelation that I read in ``The Freedom at midnight`` by Lapierre, Nehru actually asked Mountbatten to take over the reins of administration to bring peace to riot-stricken areas of India after the British had just transferred power to India. This was a best kept secret until Nehru died. The fact is: he did not let his inexperience or ego come in the way of his country benefitting from Mountbatten`s experience of managing agitations and riiots. As Nehru told Mountbatten that day: ``I have spent much of my life in British jail and know how to agitate but not how to manage it!``. To me, that simple honesty is hallmark of a great man.

The great thing about Nehru is: his heart was in the right place. He strove for a democratic and secular India. Today`s India cannot hope to progress if it turns its back on secularism. I see a great threat to secularism today even as India is on its path towards material progress.
Nehru was no doubt impressed with Fabian Socialism that he came across in Cambridge and other academic circles in the early part of 20th century. He was much impressed by the progress made by Soviet Union, which, by 1950s, had achieved a high standard of literacy and health. He sought to emulate that model. Hence, the hightly centralized planning.
Few could have foreseen the unintended consequences of such a rigid control system viz corruption and lack of enterprise. If at all, i will blame the leaders who followed Nehru. Once it was clear that his economic policies were a failure, leaders like Indira Gandhi and the rest should have dismantled those policies. Nehru was a Giant in his lifetime. His ideas just took that long to wither away.
How about the Primary education? Hasn`t Kerala shown us how a communist state with rigid controls can achieve high literacy thr` primary education. This happened by people`s participation. Why has Rajasthan been unable to emulate the Kerala model? or for that matter other states? Govt can fund projects but cannot compel people to participate. No doubt Nehru was wrong in not going in for Universal Primary Education right at the beginning. He probably lacked that kind of vision. But, why did the leaders who followed him not make amends.? The whole point is: in a democracy, one person should never loom over political scenario larger than life as Nehru did. Like someone said, Nehru was like that big Banyan tree under which everyone slept in comfort and few complained. If some people are complaining today, even that is due to Nehru`s legacy of democracy and free speech!

In a good article, this author compares how South Korea overtook India. Primary education was just one factor. Prudent economic policies were what made South Korea an economic giant that it is today.
Much of what South Korea did 20 years ago, India is doing today. And, we are just beginning to see its effects.

http://www.hvk.org/articles/0197/0078.html (the article was written in late 90s when India had just started to liberalize its economy)

Excerpts:

``By the early eighties, Korea`s average tariff rate was seven per
cent, India`s 35 per cent; Korea`s exports were 32 per cent of her
GNP, India`s was five per cent; Korea`s investment was 28 per cent
of her GNP, India`s 22 per cent. And by 1994, India`s per capita
income was $ 330, Korea`s $ 10,330.

While in some ways this is a sad story for India, it is also one of
hope. The Korean example shows how quickly a country can transform
itself. India also has not done too badly since the early
eighties. It has grown reasonably well, and especially during the
last three years, it has grown by more than six per cent per annum.
Through the eighties, India`s poverty has fallen steadily. If we
are to improve on this performance so that poverty is finally
overcome, it is essential that we stay on course with the reforms.`
Sridhar

Dost mitter

Taiwan and korea,

It is interesting that no one mentioned about the role played by the investment incentives and preferential trade offered by the uS to Korea and taiwan in early years, just to create a siccess model of the capitalism. Taiwan and korea were helped simply because there is a china and north korea.

It would be improper to compare their success to that of any other countries because of the special circumstances and the role played by the US for demonstration purpose.

harimau #128
Thanks.

correction #114
That was Tiberius not Nero.

Layman #92 . . . you are correct, computerised tickets are not available from all the small hamlets, but the Indian Railways are getting there.

Let me put it this way, just yesterday, at New Delhi, I had the option of buying a platform ticket for 3/- rupees from a human being, for which I got the standard spec card ticket, or from a machine, for which I got a small printout receipt. There is also a soon-to-be introduced platform ticket cum weighing machine weight + fortune deal for all of 5/-.

Likewise, you can log in right now to the IR website from anywhere in the world and buy your train ticket. You can go to increasing numbers of stations, where there are terminals, at last count about 9000 of them, and buy unreserved or reserved journey tickets.

These two methods cover about 98% of long distance tickets.

On the commuter trains, you can buy self-validating coupons, smart cards, token . . . and card tickets too.

What I am saying is that this is one arena where the rules of the game have really changed FOR the elusive common man Indian.

That`a all.

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Another thing to keep in mind is that a lot of investment in SE Asia was the ``bad`` kind, short-term portfolio investment (mutual fund managers need a place to park a few tens of millions of dollars for a short time). This is in contrast to the ``good`` kind of FDI, investment in factories, etc. So with bad FDI, as soon as there is a hiccup in the market, it runs away and since these are very primitive and undeveloped markets with no depth to them, this can cause a complete collapse very quickly.

Many proponents of financial market liberalization did not distinguish between good and bad FDI (but Stiglitz, e.g, did) and saw all FDI as good. Stopping capital account convertibility may temporarily stop the panicked outflow BUT it does mean that the next time something looks as if it might go wrong, the smart money will leave ASAP in case Mahatir`s successor stops convertability again. After all, the govt`s credibility is pretty much nil.

So there are pros and cons to every solution!

it is the Religion that will fall -- not the Science --

Natural will truimph over the Supernatural -- Skepticism will defeat dogma -- Disbelief will conquer Belief -- -- Reason will destroy irrationality

the Left brain WILL dominate the Right

the Pan Religiosity and the Faith Fervor of the present day world -- among the the Muslims, the Hindus, the Jewish, the Buddhists, the Sikhs and the Christians -- is the Last Hurrah before the Final Fall...

Science WILL close that Theater of Absurd called Religion -- for good ...one day!

I beg to differ with Dost that these three policies have failed. As a matter of fact I see those initiatives have brought intended social change successfully in all respect. Some of the results may be un-intended but those policies never failed. But since this article is directly comming from horses mouth (i.e. former policy analyst, what am I to say anything)

Ref sadna #114

[Re banking and other Asian economies, weren`t the S.East Asian tigers economies` near-catastrophic meltdowns some years ago and Japan`s economic troubles precipitated by poor banking practices? Didn` t something similar happen in Russia, too - too much FDI too fast?

China and India escaped the worst effects of those times. The point is there has to be a balance between too much government oversight and too little, esp when life savings or jobs of millions of people are at stake.]

The reason the Asian Tiger economies collapsed is that they permitted free inflow and outflow of capital. So when the Western investors didn`t see the returns they wanted, they pulled out their capital.

China and India have restrictions on convertibility of capital accounts. Thus both escaped runs on their currencies as happened to the Malaysian ringgit till Mahathir had enough and pegged the ringgit at Rg. 3.75 to a dollar and stopped capital account convertibility.

Another difference is how the Chinese managed FDI. By guaranteeing no labor strife, good infrastructure (electricity, transportation, ports, etc.) they got FDI. In India we have the babus of the bureaucracy deciding how many pennies a foreign investor can bring in. Add to that bad ports, unreliable electric supply, poor roads, you got the worst of the third world. China also pegged their renminbi whereas India lets the rupee float. This worked when the Indian rupee depreciated against the dollar and Indian (IT) companies were able to report huge profits in rupees but now that the rupee has gone up from 49 to a dollar to 45-and-change to a dollar, these guys are crying buckets.

It is just that India has way too many LSE graduates running the economy whereas China has the equivalent of the Marwaris running their economy. You can see the difference.

Ref dost-mittar #121

[In fact, IIT engineers could be hired for a few hundred rupees a month during late sixties and seventies. I got my first job in 1964 in India after doing a simple M.A and was getting paid more than an IIT graduate did.]

I recently met a retired Indian gentleman in the US. He is an early IIT-Kharagpur graduate and in those days they either stayed on In India or, if they went for higher studies to the US, returned to India. All I can say is while he was happy for his son`s financial success in the US, he seemed rather amused by the big deal being made about the whole thing. He seemed quite at peace with himself and the way his career had shaped up.

dost-mittar
I am almost totally ignorant of what Nehru actually said or wrote on the subject, but, IMHO in his vision for modern India, Nehru forgot that regions constituting presentday India were strong trading powers for most of history. They could not have been so without being good producers of surplus and inclined towards enterprise.

He missed taking into account the fact that economic lethargy, poverty and illiteracy didnot necessarily constitute the natural state of his countrymen. ( Eg, in a recent NYT writeup on excavations on the Red Sea coast which unearthed quantities of peppercorns and cotton cloth, the Emperor Nero was quoted as complaining of balance of payments crisis with India 2000 years ago :)).

Nehru`s oversight was like that of many modern Arabs, for example, who have forgotten that Arabs were great seafarers and traders in the past but now consider `globalization` or increased interaction with outside world and its ideas as inherently wrong or unnatural.

Ref fuzair #97

[Thanks for the post but I fear logic and facts will be of no use. IIRC, macgupta and I have had that discussion before (on just how evil was the British Raj) and there is no point in trying.]

The Raj was evil as were its political agents. The policy of the Raj was to turn India into a country from which they could extract raw materials at low cost and dump British manufactures to the exclusion of most others (I recall my folks telling me inexpensive Japanese cloth used to be available in India). The political agents and Residents were there to control independent tribals and rajas.

The average civil servant -- all the way I would think up to the Chief Secretary level in the Provinces -- had a great deal of autonomy in how they ran the administration. While racism played a part in British-Indian relations, even that happened after the Mutiny of 1857. Before that quite a few Englishment ``went Native`` in their dress and eating habits and had Indian wives and concubines. The Civil Service was impartial in its arbitration of disputes amomgst Indians which was important to the people who had been treated so high-handedly by the Rajas, Maharajas, Ranas, Sultans and Nawabs. The British also brought in the concept of a professional full-time army, the railways (privately owned and thus subject to the charge that profit was the motive), built several roads (no tolls were collected so one would have to say this was for administrative convenience if not for public convenience), irrigation projects, etc. Where they failed was in public health and immunizations.

As to education, under the British, Indians earned 3 Nobel Prizes for work done in India. (Sir Ronald Ross born in Almora in 1857 for Medicine, Rabindranath Tagore and CV Raman.) Under our new Nawabs, all talent has to leave the country in order to do good work because anywhere from 50% to 88% of colege admissions and jobs are reserved for the Retards.

Ref Cranberry-sauce-stuffed-Turkey #102

[The power of IITs is a myth. We haven`t had breakthrough technological or scientific innovations coming out of IITs. The smart ones from IIT would be smart even without an IIT education and IITs merely act as a selection filter. For what it`s worth, two of Microsoft`s VPs are alumni of guindy engineering college/anna university, madras.]

So right. Who can forget the new TVs based on the RGY phosphors?

By the way, would these two be any of the Quota Candidates?

I remember a scientist (a former Deputy Director of the Central Electronics Research Institute) who was an adjunct professor at Anna University. When he was approached by the faculty to also become an advisor to PhD students, he refused. His reasoning, as told to me, was: ``at some point somebody wearing a towel on his shoulders will show up at my doors and gently suggest that I should a) admit so-and-so to the doctoral program and b) I should approve XYZ`s thesis. None of this is compatible with good academic work and so I refused.``

The Man with the Towel on His Shoulders, for those who are unfamiliar with Tamil Nadu, are the political leaders and their hangers-on who normally wear a white dhoti, white kurta and a very long white towel whose borders would be red and black signifying their affiliation with the DMK/DK.

This is of course the reason why the Chennai Mathematical Institute is affiliated with Bhoj University in Madhya Pradesh and not with Perarignar Anna University or with the University of Madras. We already see a bunch of high schools offering the Cambridge Examinations as an alternative to your Plus Two (no quota candidates are studying there), several other high schools offering the Central Board curriculum (no Maasanamuthus here either, no surprise) as an alternative to the State Board.

We in Tamil Nadu know exactly where Anna University ranks. The IIT Madras is right across from Anna and you guys are not fit to carry the sh!t of the IIT students. At least the IIT students have demonstrated their ability to study hard and pass an exam to get into their institution whereas you have produced a caste certificate and usually a bogus one at that to get into Anna University.

Ref dost-mittar #111

[soysauce:
``I`m not knocking you, mind you, but you might as well make the title read Yesterday`s (successes/failures) are today`s (successes/failures) and all four combinations would be valid.``
I do not disagree with this at all! In fact, I stated at the beginning of the article that ``One of the lessons learned from these analyses is that the unintended consequences of government programs and policies are SOMETIMES stronger and quite different from their intended effects.``]

Dear Dost-Mittarji,

You need to use words of one syllable when writing to Maasanamuthu. Or colloquial Tamil.

Ref ahmedmadani #117

[#106 Harimau...... Thanks for telling about Bharat Dynamics.
If you know what is hsb (Hbs?) Report ? Thanks for troubles.]

HBS I presume would be Harvard Business School. This might have been a paper for a course in Public Policy but I do not have access to it.

sadna:
I agree with most of your post.
``China and India escaped the worst effects of those times``
It`s too early to say if the Chinese banks are out of the woods yet. They have been lending recklessly on the behest of their government without regard to sound business practices, much like the earlier lending by the public sector banks in India. Indian banking system seems to have survived intact because of some effective remedial actions taken by the govt. and RBI.
In case it has not been clear until now, I am not a laissez fare economist, only that the govt. should not have a seat at the boardrooms of the corporation, except to make rules to ensure that no hanky-panky is going on there.

gujjubania:
``There is nothing new in what you say.``
...nor did I intend to, except to draw attention to the unintended effects. The article makes only peripheral reference to the economic liberalisation; instead it tries to debunk the myth that the credit for the current success belongs to our earlier leadership for choosing english as its official language and the setting up of the institutes of higher learning. The credit for the first goes to south Indians and the second did not succeed in its intended effects. In fact, IIT engineers could be hired for a few hundred rupees a month during late sixties and seventies. I got my first job in 1964 in India after doing a simple M.A and was getting paid more than an IIT graduate did.

#106 Harimau...... Thanks for telling about Bharat Dynamics.
If you know what is hsb (Hbs?) Report ? Thanks for troubles.

#106 Harimau...... Thanks for telling about Bharat Dynamics.
If you know what is hsb (Hbs?) Report ? Thanks for troubles.

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Dost mitter

On a thread that disappeared you asked about the legal status of honour killing. Following is a quate from a post by none other than romair.

``Once again, the supporters of, “Constitutional democracy” in Pakistan were quiet. Constitutionally and democratically speaking, if the elected assemblies do not want to legislate against honor killings, then what right does an unelected and unconstitutional President have to take action against it, on his own? ``

For Pankaj and Arjun`s kind perusal:



THE CAPITALIST THREAT

What kind of society do we want? ``Let the market decide!`` is the often-heard response. That response, a prominent capitalist argues, undermines the very values on which open and democratic societies depend.
by George Soros
--excerpt--

IN The Philosophy of History, Hegel discerned a disturbing historical pattern -- the crack and fall of civilizations owing to a morbid intensification of their own first principles. Although I have made a fortune in the financial markets, I now fear that the untrammeled intensification of laissez-faire capitalism and the spread of market values into all areas of life is endangering our open and democratic society. The main enemy of the open society, I believe, is no longer the communist but the capitalist threat.

dost-mittar
Talking of Nehru`s other possible successes doesnot constitute a rival viewpoint.

Re banking and other Asian economies, weren`t the S.East Asian tigers economies` near-catastrophic meltdowns some years ago and Japan`s economic troubles precipitated by poor banking practices? Didn` t something similar happen in Russia, too - too much FDI too fast?

China and India escaped the worst effects of those times. The point is there has to be a balance between too much government oversight and too little, esp when life savings or jobs of millions of people are at stake.

ballukhan, silly:
I think that we are talking past each other.
I am not saying that these noveau Indians are the only ones with an Indian identity, but they do represent a sort of identity that is new to India. Back in the 50s and 60s we also had a certain pan Indian identity, which is represented on the chowk by nasah and myself (I hope nasah saheb wont mind my daring to put myself in the same category as himself!); I would also include people like RAS and temporal in that group even though they are Pakistanis. We were also haughty and arrogant, we thought both America and Russia to be inferior to us since we were free of both Mcarthyism and Stalinism (although we didn`t see anything wrong in taking the first opportunity to go to the same West we called decadent and exploitative) and we believed that, in our -i.e., Nehru`s leadership of the non-aligned block in the cold war, we were the conscience of the world. We are now an almost extinct species and these noveau Indians may also not survive as a specy for ever. But the local and religious identities have always survived and will probably always survive.

PM#107:
As the commercial says, ``these things take time``.
When I came to Canada, most of the immigrants coming here were from Italy, Greece, Ireland and other european countries, even England. And now, if anything, there is a net reverse immigration to these countries from Canada. Similarly, in the 70s we had large scale immigration from the so-called Asian Tigers - South Korea, Singapore, Malaysia, Hongkong, Taiwan, even Japan. Starting with the mid-80s or thereabout, these immigrations started to come down and have now come down to a trickle. We are still getting immigrants from certain provinces from China but there is an equal number of enterprising Chinese going back to the mainland.
I am almost certain that IF and when India starts to approach the same levels and growth rates that have been experienced in China for the last 15-20 years, immigration from India will also slow down.

soysauce:
``I`m not knocking you, mind you, but you might as well make the title read Yesterday`s (successes/failures) are today`s (successes/failures) and all four combinations would be valid.``
I do not disagree with this at all! In fact, I stated at the beginning of the article that ``One of the lessons learned from these analyses is that the unintended consequences of government programs and policies are SOMETIMES stronger and quite different from their intended effects.``

``Let`s consider the other side of your argument now: Suppose Nehru had emphasized primary education. Perhaps our population growth would have slowed and we would have a few hundred million mouths to feed. That would be development...``
Precisely! And this is what the HBS study comparing Korea and India also seems to be saying.

Dost,
``That is very nice to know. But you must be aware that at the election time, political parties in India not only appeal to narrower loyalties but also generally take caste, religion and similar narrower loyalties into consideration while choosing a candidate.``
This statement can be made about any democracy. All the politicians want power. They will go by the demographics before they field candidates/before appealing for votes. Have you not observed this in US. I have seen Democrats trying to appeal black voters and republicans trying to appeal hispanics all the time.

I remember Congress and TDP fielding Muslim candidates for parliament seats where the 90% of population is Hindu. Which ethnic community are they trying to appease in this scenario.

#95 by dost-mittar on December 1, 2003 7:07am PT

Dost Mitter. You have completely missed the point- and the issue- it is regarding IDENTITY and not about Raising Issues in the Democratic Election of this Multi-Cultural and Ethnically diverse country by the local candidates.
You fail to understand that Indian IDENTITY issues do not figure much in the Local and State election unless there is some serious conflict between the local identity and the national identity. NAidu raises issues of local identity , but that is not the CORE ISSUE as ``one nation- one identity`` purists of Islamic variety make it out to be as in Pakistan. In a REAL MULTI ETHNIC and MULTI CULTURAL, MULTI-RELIGIOUS , MULTI_LINGUISTIC democratic countries like India (or even America), Local issues are important at local levels (like a local parliament constituency).

TRying to DEGRADE the Indian democracy by calling the pan-Indian identity as a construct of the so called noveau Indians is same as saying that PAkistan is an IMAGINED NATIONED with the PAkistani IDENTITY forming only in the DISCOURSE of the TNTs (which is not TRue anymore).
I would only call it- Khatte-Angur.!!!

re. #99 arjun-m:
``Is capitalism like it is practised in the US perfect? heck no.....but is it better than any socialist system India had? heck YES.... ``

You would know more about that than myself I guess.
But rest assured, American median income hasn`t increased at all over the past 25 years, and in fact in real terms actually fallen. The average guy works longer hours to make the same bread today as his father did in the 70`s.

All this while wealth in America has increased quite a bit-- obviously concentratedly. But that in itself is not a problem. My beef with Pankaj was his advocacy of the laizzez faire economics. The problem with removing the regulations introduced byBretton-Woods, and the later introduction of NAFTA, all of which I would imagine Pankaj would be a willing signatory to, has resulted in a loss of control over captial flight, that in turn has lead to greater worker insecurity.

Sure, all this is great for the health of the Economy, coz it`s creating much wealth, as Pankaj would point. However, it doesn`t seem to be very good for the health of the average worker.

Dost mittarji:

I guess we`ll have to agree to disagree on the point of where Indians would want to settle. Of course, I think everyone, not just Indians, have some feep desire to settle in the land of their birth, but the class you referred to earlier (the yuppies) are the least likely to share this sentiment.

I agree with your income/PPP equation. However, I think you will be hardpressed to find single young Indians foregoing opporunties to make $60 p.a in the US for Rs. 30,000 p.m. jobs in the Indian market.

Besides, it would be a willingness to work for less I think that would truly indicate love for country. I don`t mean that one impoverish onself with patriotic spirit. But I think too much about how much is enough is informed by western media and norms, (did you read that TIME or newsweek article on India`s new rich some MONTHS ago?) which is why tend to think that much of the new Indian Identity isn`t really Indian at all, and not at all inclusive either. It`s the identity of the landed Middle Class, psychically landed in America, for the most part. And that should worry the true nationalists, not only for what it might portend for the environment in the not-so-long run, but also to the economy which will may likely turn runaway credit-oriented.

---

re. the Northies and the Southies;
``Two factors would explain such phenomenon, a very small sample and, secondly, the curiousity factor which would draw an Indian towards a Pakistani.``

nahiN paaji.. these Indians were all buddies of mine, actually, and a couple of times we met at restaurants, with me being with a different group each time. It was interesting, to say the least, to hear some comments from each side on the other. Though i admit, the sample size is too small for me to set my idea in stone.

---

harimau:
My idea that Americans are preferred in the jobs currently opening up is based on my own job search experience. Even where TS clearance isn`t required, an increasing number of employers seem to not want H1B`s either (though GC holders will do)

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Ref dost-mittar #60

[...it is my understanding that the 25% quota applies to IITs, too. I also understand that some of those admitted under reserved class do not make it into the second year.]

The admission criteria are RELAXED but not completely eliminated for SC/ST candidates and the reservation is limited to 22.5% (at least at IIT-Kharagpur) as opposed to the Mandal Commission recommendation of 50%.

Those who don`t quite cut it are given a 1-year remedial course before being admitted to the regular program at IIT-Kharagpur.

Ref FarzanaVersey #59

[I, as a Mumbaiite, find little in common with a person from Delhi.... with the same level of education, upbringing and even jingoism!]

For which you should be eternally grateful to God! ;-)

Ref ahmedmadani #58

[I have never heard about a company called ``Bharat Dynamics`` which was started by Mrs. Gandhi`s efforts as per your note. Could write few lines about this company. I know major companies from India. I have never heard about company even once. Kindly throw some information about this company.]

Bharat Dynamics is involved in manufacturing missiles for the Ministry of Defence. Established in 1970. I don`t know if they manufacture any item related to satellite launch vehicles. They make the Akash (surface to air), Nag (anti-tank) kind of missiles.

Dost Mittarji,
I`m a little late to the party and perhaps someone else has made this point already. I`m not knocking you, mind you, but you might as well make the title read Yesterday`s (successes/failures) are today`s (successes/failures) and all four combinations would be valid. Therefore, while the exercise is amusing, one learns very little from it, even with all the advantages of hindsight. Let me give you an example. India came on the scene in a big way (Tata-Unisys had been doing it for eons before that) in software contract work with the millennium thing. Cobol programmers were sought out as western companies were desperately looking to back up data from their aging machines. Where were the largest number of cobol programmers? In india, where IBM had been kicked out by the cursed socialists and where evolution in programming and computer technology had more or less stopped and ancient knowledge preserved more out of necessity. Does one conclude from this chain of events that it was a good policy that IBM had been shown the door?
Another thing is, the whole IIT mystic is heavily overblown. The IT enterpreneurs and workers in india are mostly from other institutions. Figures, since IITs don`t graduate that many engineers. For every IIT grad who makes it to Stanford, there`s several more that end up at places like University of Alabama. The power of IITs is a myth. We haven`t had breakthrough technological or scientific innovations coming out of IITs. The smart ones from IIT would be smart even without an IIT education and IITs merely act as a selection filter. For what it`s worth, two of Microsoft`s VPs are alumni of guindy engineering college/anna university, madras.
Let`s consider the other side of your argument now: Suppose Nehru had emphasized primary education. Perhaps our population growth would have slowed and we would have a few hundred million mouths to feed. That would be development...

PM#100:
``Well, now would that not have much to do with the burst IT bubble, and with an increasing preference for American workers in the job market where it is opening up (mostly national security-related). ``
Of course, it does! we are not in either-or world; it`s a multivariate world and all factors come into play, including the push factors in the US and pull factors of a more buoyant market back home.

``from my experience with young Indians in the workforce, I`d have to disagree... all the Indians I came across who hailed bigger urban centres had one dream: the Green Card.``
This is quite compatible with my hypothesis. Green card still represents significant improvement in the prospects of both the migrant and especially his children. However, this is likely to change over time - for instance, by my rough rule of thumb of purchansing power, a person now needs to have an income of $5000 per month in the US to equal an income of Rs. 30,000 per month in India after taking account of the higher deductions at source, medicare, car insurance and other such factors. As of now, many people making Rs. 30000 in India will jump at a salary of $5000 in the US but over time the reality will hit home to more people in India.

``And incidentally, I don`t know how much water your `new nationalism` theory can hold, given that each of the two groups-- the more urbanized, Westernized, Anglicized, Northerners; and their less slick Southern compatriots, would rather share a dinner table with me, a Pakistani (though probably in their view an atypical one), than with the other group.``
Two factors would explain such phenomenon, a very small sample and, secondly, the curiousity factor which would draw an Indian towards a Pakistani.

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Incidentally, dost, since we are not loathe to expressive specualtive views here, I`d like to oppose what I believe is a fundamental principle of your thesis here-- that the noveau Indian, as you call him/her, is imbued with a spirit of India-first nationalism.

In #78, you write: ``...If the news reports are to believed, more of them are now staying back [in India] and some firms are in fact recruiting in North America to take people back to India.``

Well, now would that not have much to do with the burst IT bubble, and with an increasing preference for American workers in the job market where it is opening up (mostly national security-related).

`` I believe that most people want to stay in the surroundings they grew up in (including villagers) unless they can significantly improve their or their children`s living standards. If new graduates can do that in India, they will stay there, or so I would like to think. ``

from my experience with young Indians in the workforce, I`d have to disagree... all the Indians I came across who hailed bigger urban centres had one dream: the Green Card. And many shared a disdain for most things Indian-- including, or especially, some IIT graduates I chanced to meet. On the contrary, it was the little-town folks from Madras and Karnatika that seemed more interested in returning to the motherland.

And incidentally, I don`t know how much water your `new nationalism` theory can hold, given that each of the two groups-- the more urbanized, Westernized, Anglicized, Northerners; and their less slick Southern compatriots, would rather share a dinner table with me, a Pakistani (though probably in their view an atypical one), than with the other group.

I know that these are only anecdotal observations based on a very small `sample` anyway, but that may still be a step up from much of the pure speculation flying around here.

rgds,
PM

Pankaj, re.#81
miaN, your optimism wrt free enterprise and minimalist governement intervention is a bit evocative of some other folks` pie in the sky of their perfect religion. That is, the theory, or the ideology (for it is nothing but that without demonstrated success) is one thing but the practice quite another.

To put it simply, to earn the right to be so gung-ho about the promise of the free market and laizzez faire ecomomics, you should be able to point out to the success of at least one such experiment.

However, the reality far from supports the theory of the hidden hand. In some study conducted last year (I think) it was found that the Furtune500`s top one hundred trans-national corporations ALL benefited at some point from government intervention at some point, with 20 of them being bailed out from bankruptcy with public money! (Sorry I don`t have the source, but I think it could be verufued easily enough with a little bit of `enterprising` web-searching)

So, even if you somehow consider this a success of free market enterprise, you would have to admit that it`s only possible when you have a very strong, rich, BIG nanny state to help you out when the chips are down.

---

Dost-Mittarji:
Thanks for that info. I was just reading sadna`s linked document.

Re: Harimau #91

Thanks for the post but I fear logic and facts will be of no use. IIRC, macgupta and I have had that discussion before (on just how evil was the British Raj) and there is no point in trying.

ferozk#28:
``Nehru was an aristocrat and he ruled India in that mold of mind and when the aristocrats rule with the best of intentions, people suffer. ``

True! and it shows that it may be as unsafe to entrust a nation to them as to the feudals. Actually, one could perhaps argue that feudals are closer to the pulse of the masses, with whom they deal on a daily basis than the aristocrats. (the classic ``if they dont have bread, why dont they eat cake mentality!).
Nehru hated feudals and abolished zamindari, but did nothing to abolish the private schools, the breeding ground for elites/aristocracy. And he loved the darbari/sarkari thaat-baat of parlatial bungalows for the president, prime minister and ministers of his socialist utopia. Traffic on the streets in India was closed two hours before the savaari of Nawab Saheb to pass through it.

silly, faruk, ballukhan:
``I am from south but i never considered myself first as telugu and then indian. I always considered myself first as Indian and then Hindu. `` (silly)
That is very nice to know. But you must be aware that at the election time, political parties in India not only appeal to narrower loyalties but also generally take caste, religion and similar narrower loyalties into consideration while choosing a candidate. This is true even of the modern, progressive leaders like Chandrababu Naidu of Andhra Pradesh.
And when I refer to this group of noveau Indians having a primarily pan-Indian identity, I do not mean that they do not have other identity or identities.

sadna#83:
Thanks for providing a useful link, as usual, even when it supports the rival viewpoint. There is another interesting graph, which shows that while inequalities decreased during the Nehruvian era, the poverty levels increased; the opposite happened in the following period, namely, that the inequalities increased during this period while poverty levels decreased. There is a moral here for Angana Chatterjees, Praful Badwais and others: live with inequality and reduce poverty; or praise equality and let the poor starve (while you deliver your khutbas from your ivory towers!).

PM:
The link provided by sadna provides an answer to the question posed by you regarding definition of poverty, which I am reproducing below:
``Often conducted annually, the survey has used consistent poverty lines (49 rupees for rural areas, and 57 rupees, both in terms of 1973-1974 prices). The poverty lines were described by the survey designers as permitting a caloric intake of 2,400 calories in rural areas and 2,100 calories in urban areas.3 The NSS provides national and state-by-state data on average consumption, share of the population in poverty, and the distribution of consumption among the population, in the form of a Gini coefficient.``

Faruk:

``This is an amazing generalization of Indians, completely different from my experience. Most Indians I have met think of themselves as Indians period. They might belong to one part of the country and may live somewhere else or should I say their ancestors belonged to some other part of the country.``

This is certainly true of my extended family. But I think this holds especially true of the members and descendants of central government employees. Millions of kids graduate from Kendriya Vidyalayas every year (I spent three years in three different ones) and they have NO identity but an Indian one.

veeresh #64:
``The one thing that has changed in India since 1947 for the rural unlettered poor who are still in the Anrez Rani/thanedaar kotwal/road rangdari tax era is the railway ticket, now computerised at some of the smallest hamlets . . . ``
Computerised train tickets are not available in the ``smallest hamlets``... a few months ago I had to book a train ticket at the railway station of a small town, and they were still handing out the small cardboard tickets. Of course, it does not make economic sense to install computers in small stations, where the volumes are not there...