Yesterday’s Failures are Today’s Successes

Haven`t read the whole article, which looks interesting, as is almsot anything from dost-mittar sahib.

But this!? : `` These are the people one thinks of when one hears people talk about this almost mythical notion of ‘India’. They have developed common tastes in food and entertainment, a common love of consumerism and seem to revel in their love for their country, sometimes even approaching the level of jingoism.``

I guess it would have to be the jingoistic version of nationalism that prevails here. I don;t see how love of consumerism could be possible with any genuine love for country. Perhaps you make the point later in the article?

later...
PM

PM

``I don;t see how love of consumerism could be possible with any genuine love for country.``

Its not clear to me how consumerism and patriotism are related. Will I be a lesser Indian because I like to splurge ? I`m sure you have a point somewhere - not clear to me though.

re. #2
It`s very simple, khotasaika. Take the cues from the West. Unbridled consumerism depletes and/or destroys limited natural resources-- to say nothing of the fabric of scoial structures that the East has traditionally-- if sometimes exaggeratedly-- prided and built itself on.

Of course, we can continue to play dumb and act as if consumerism isn`t responsible for the impending environmental disastors ahead. But then, schizophrenia seems to be another hallmark of the consumerist society. :)

``These are the people one thinks of when one hears people talk about this almost mythical notion of ‘India’. They have developed common tastes in food and entertainment, a common love of consumerism and seem to revel in their love for their country, sometimes even approaching the level of jingoism.``

The rise of a confident, assertive and successful middle class in India, largely a product of liberalization of Indian economy, is positively correlated with patriotism (and jingoism for some). Naturally, this middle classs has a strong stake in the success and stability of India. The youth belonging to this class has the killer instinct and fire in the belly to succeed and they are the ones who would propel future India. With success comes a strong sense of self-esteem and with it comes stronger notion of identity. For identity, Indian youth naturally looks back at the ancient Indian civilization and its achievements. Now it is largely Hinduism along with other Indic religions like Jainism, Buddhism etc that incorporate these civilizational traits and provide him(Indian youth) with a sense of pride and positive self image. That explains why this upwardly mobile class is a big supporter of BJP. And it is the middle class that will shape Indian future.

They say the road to hell is paved with good intentions... I believe that the road to disaster is paved with socialist intentions. Socialists, communists and leftists of all hues choose ``equality``, I prefer freedom. What people dont realize is that complete ``equality`` and freedom can never coexist in a human society... Individuals are unique and differ in their capabilities, some have better business acumen, others have better technical skills and still others may have good aesthetic sense but poor business skills. Thus the economic inequality is a direct offshoot of the variance in human nature concerning wealth generation capacity. I prefer free society and free enterpreneurship to a totalitarian state imposing economic equality over its subjects through draconian and murderous dictatorship. Complete equality is theoretically possible only in a society of identical clones, not natural human beings. Any attempt to impose equality results in stifling creativity of the energetic and resourceful people of a country that will ultimately spell doom for any society. The job of government should be to facilitate free enterprise by focussing on the law and order and let the ``trickle down`` effect do the distribution of wealth instead of trying to redistribute the wealth using state power.

Good article. Nehru never was a visionary rather he was a protectionist. He just wanted an India that is self sufficient not an India that is a dominant player in the world economy. But like you said, he had a good understanding of the need for higher technical education for India to be a self sufficient nation. We should be thankful to Nehru on this matter. In my opinion the blame for the failure of basic education/literacy should be placed on the local state level governments not on the central government. Nehru`s period at the center can be termed as a mixed bag of successes and failures.

I think the 20 yr combined rule of Indira Gandhi and Rajeev Gandhi at the center was the worst period for India. Their 20 yr rule was complete failure. Compared to their govts, PV Narasimha rao and Vajpayee govts are much better.

quiet a nice article.

in my opinion nehru laid the foundation of a strong india. however indra and rajiv did not build on that foundation otherwise india would have been a stronger nation today. credit should be given to Rajiv gandhi for taking the first steps towards IT in india. he was looking much further ahead when he was talking of taking india to 21st century.

regarding english language proficiency in india, credit goes to the missionary schools that were set up all over india. even though student had to say ``Thy kingdon come, thy will be done`` almost everyday, he/she did get good basic education including english language.

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PM#4

Consumerism is related to ecological problems - directly and indirectly, yes. You are referring to irresponsible consumerism - of course there is an alternative. It hasnt been tried yet, but I suppose India will be able to evolve something. There`s a can-do attitude like never before. We are actually beginning to believe in a future, perhaps even a greater destiny as a nation.

But I was confused about your earlier statement where you made an either-or case with consumerism and patriotism. That is clearly not the case.

``I believe that the road to disaster is paved with socialist intentions. Socialists, communists and leftists of all hues choose ``equality``, I prefer freedom. What people dont realize is that complete ``equality`` and freedom can never coexist in a human society..``(Pankaj)

Pankaj miaN -- how the road to disaster is paved with socialist intentions if the socialist choose ``equality`` over your ``freedom``?

and if -- ``complete equality`` and freedom can never coexist in human society`` -- do you think that ``complete freedom`` can exist anywhere in the world -- Socialist or Capitalist....without equality?.....:-)

``Yesterday’s Failures are Today’s Successes``.....?

mayray mittre -- dost-mitter ji -- may be or may be NOT -- did it occur to your that may be also --

Yesterday`s Successes are Today`s Failures?.. :-)

the name of the game of yester years -- ``during the 50s, ‘60s and ‘70s`` -- could have been -- Sacrifice For Self-Sufficiency -- may be a temporary inconvenience -- may be an unknowing or all-knowing ForePlay For Future IT FkFest .``.......:-)

on the cultural level -- as the language of my post would indicate -- the Indians of 2003 are less civilized -- more uncouth ... more hateful... more cruel ... more selfish...more capricious....more vulgar -- more barbarian -- and more SUCCESSFUL -- than the Indians of ``the 50s, ‘60s and may be of ‘70s.``.. :-)

Whatever his flaws and blindspots Nehru was a great visionary ... and India will be forever in his debt, no matter what his detractors say.. or how much they want to take him apart.

While I agree that protectionism in the long run might have become a liability, it was required initially. Dost Mittar is right in concluding that the failure of tommorow is a success of today.

I disagree with dost mittar on the issue of national language. Nehru was right in making Hindi the national language. A national language promotes secular nationalism and crushes the forces of regional/ethnic/communal dissent. Perhaps Urdu could have done the same for Pakistan... but enough people were out to exploit the issue... too bad... it could have been the perfect alternative for Islamic solidarity for the basis of Pakistani nationalism.

``And the South, which was unwilling to learn Hindi under duress, seems to be willing now to accept a hybrid of Hindi and English or Hinglish. Hinglish now seems to be as easily understood in Bangalore as in Mumbai. Some of the recent Bollywood films seem to use more Hinglish than Hindi/Urdu. ``


Perhaps Urdulish can do the same for Pakistan.

-YLH

PM#1
``I guess it would have to be the jingoistic version of nationalism that prevails here. I don;t see how love of consumerism could be possible with any genuine love for country. Perhaps you make the point later in the article? ``

The statement I made was regarding the characteristic of a certain emerging class in India. Perhaps you may explain why the love of consumerism is not possible with love of country. I am sure you are not suggesting that people in poor countries love their country more than those in richer countries. If the point is that consumerism leads to environmental degradation, I would agree but I see it more as a global than a national issue. One could perhaps also argue that these people are ignorant and if they Really loved their counry, they would not worship consumerism.

Pankaj:
``With success comes a strong sense of self-esteem and with it comes stronger notion of identity. For identity, Indian youth naturally looks back at the ancient Indian civilization and its achievements. Now it is largely Hinduism along with other Indic religions like Jainism, Buddhism etc that incorporate these civilizational traits and provide him(Indian youth) with a sense of pride and positive self image. ``

I agree, up to a point. But why should this sense of pride be restricted to civilization associated with Indic relgions? Why should it not include the tremendous contributions to the composite culture and civilisation made by the adherents of non-Indic faiths?

``Socialists, communists and leftists of all hues choose ``equality``, I prefer freedom. What people dont realize is that complete ``equality`` and freedom can never coexist in a human society``

To give credit where it is due, Nehru was as committed to freedom as he was to socialism if not more. In fact, I would say that he was not even seriously committed to equality, otherwise he would have closed all private schools and sent his own grandchildren to the local municipal school rather than the Doon school. And equality has not been achieved even in a communist society, members of the communist party were always more equal than others in communist China and Soviet Russia.

``The job of government should be to facilitate free enterprise by focussing on the law and order and let the ``trickle down`` effect do the distribution of wealth instead of trying to redistribute the wealth using state power.``

Here, I would disagree with you. In my observation of the working of the capitalist societies, the private enterprise does as poor a job of the distribution of wealth as the government sector does in creation of wealth. So, while the govt. should let the private sector do the job of running businesses, it must use its powers of taxation and spending to create a safety net for those who are left behind in the competitive process to ensure a caring and just society.