Proud to be a Pakistani?

dost-mittar #122:

Hum, ``aah`` bhi kartay hain tau ho jaatey hain bad-naam
Woh qatal bhi kartay hain tau charcha nahin hota


``and God knows who is right and who is wrong``

This is the attitude that everyone should have. Equal blame on both side, with a sincere desire to get to the objective facts. And then accepting the fact........

``You claim to know a lot more about India than Indians do about Pakistan but your posts show a very superficial knowledge; I doubt if you ever read any mainstream Indian newspapers, except milliegazette and BJP websites.``

I am not claiming this. It is a fact. Not only about me, but about all Pakistanis. The knowledge will obviously be superficial, since we don`t live in India. But, at least, there is some effort made. And broad generalizations are generally avoided (by, but a few Pakistanis).

I only know of one BJP site, www.bjp.org. That one I have read inside out.

I read the following Indian newspapers: www.tehelka.com, www.hindustantimes.com, www.htcricket.com (its very good cricket site), www.hindu.com. On a regular basis. Other sites, not so regularly. However, my main source of information is face to face discussions with Indians very regularly. This is where I have discovered, over a period of ten years, that they know nothing about Pakistan, other than their official govt. line. They admit it themselves. Invariably, we are always discussing India. Their only knowledge of Pakistan is of the Pakistan cricket team. And they all seem very apprehensive and almost scared of being harmed if they visit Pakistan.

You are an exception, since you have taken the time to visit Pakistan. Which is why sometimes I am greatly surprised by the generalizations you make.

HE #118,

``A kid who attends a top-class high school in Lahore is more likely to create
the next big invention, than 10 kids who attend an average high-school in
Bombay.``

Oh really - and how many big inventions have come our way from top-class
high schools in Lahore (or Bombay for that matter) ? Big inventions are rather
non-linear activities; creativity is not nurtured in most schools. Graduates of
good high schools tend to do better profesionally on an average, but are not
necessarily inventors.

HisExcellency #116

`` IITs may be excellent institutes in their own stead. However, they are also rather overhyped. This inflated my own expectations about IIT wallahs. The reality is that most students are good only at group assignments (in which they can collaborate with other Indian students). But in individuals exams, presentations and class participation... I found the IIT students to be quite mediocre. Whether this was a feature of that batch of students or a general malaise, is hard to conclude.

To say the least, nobody can make blanket statements like IITs are better than Harvard/Stanford/MIT or even Pakistan`s LUMS. Individual students may be better in some cases or batches. But institutional superiority of IITs is pure hype.``

Harvard is not an engineering university. Stanford/MIT are better than IITs. IITs are probably better than any elite Pakistani technology institution. The simple reason being Pakistan has been bad at creating any institution (that includes your mediocre military !!!) and the law of large numbers.

HisExcellency #118

`` The population of USA is just 250 million. Does that mean IITs/IIMs are 4-times better than Harvard, MIT and Stanford?? The law of big numbers is a flawed assumption. When it comes to quality education, size does not matter! A kid who attends a top-class high school in Lahore is more likely to create the next big invention, than 10 kids who attend an average high-school in Bombay. It all boils down to the amount of money a university can afford to spend on its facilities and faculty. The Pakistani institutions that I am talking about are very well funded.``

Students all over the world apply and attend American Universities. People outside India do not apply to IIT. It is 6 billion versus one billion for the applicant pool. Plus Stanford, MIT are a notch or two better funded than IITs. I would say 10 or 20 to one.

Pakistani institutions are not as well funded as IITs. They lack the alumni networks IITians have. Even if you throw money it takes time to build infrastructure and reputation. Plus there are a lot of non-IIT institutions in India which are as good as good Pakistani institutions.

#125 Jang,
General level of faculty in IIT is very good, and certainly better than any average college in India or USA.
This is not to say that there are no sub-standard teachers, but that happens everywhere. While strength of peer students is important, please do not underestimate value of good teachers. Now I find that teachers who made me struggle and give only 3 out of 20 really contributed to whatever I am. Teachers who gave 74 out of 75 really didn`t give their best.

Yasirz #51,

``Only`` permeates Indian English in more ways than one- e.g. ``I am going to India
this month only``. The way I see it, it`s like the f-word: we use `only` as a verb, noun, pronoun, younameit.

Another little quirk is the use of ``actually`` to begin a conversation: ``Actually, I am calling
to complain about .....``

Rsridhar #67,

``I have not yet met a Paki who can say a decent sentence in English.``

Begs the question, how many Pakistanis have you met ?

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i think folks are missing the point here in iit debate.

Sure, they dont produce noble prizers, or hot innovations. The facilities suck compared to great american univs and its the process of selecting and motivating the best that is the big feature of IITs.

No matter, an ``institution`` is created; this includes its zealously guarded admissions process for both students and faculty, a beacon of excellence for the nation which gives hope to middle-class kids. You cannot separate the school from its admissions process. A brand is also created by IITs and IIMs. And for B schools, brand is almost everything. The brand is widely recognized. Now that is something to be proud of .. i am sure NUST and Caltech have better urinals. And that is what this author recognized.

Now all the large number of science worker-bees these places produce is attracting fokls like GE to move its corporate R&D from Schenectady to Bangalore, and this place is flooding US patent office (this is not software, this is Physics, Chemistry types).

This is something to be proud of for a country known for its snakes and rope-trick.

(if you think the facilities dont suck, try living in the baking-oven dorms in summer in IIM Ahmedabad).

Romair#109:

The questions you raised have been asked and answered many times before and I have no interest in a India-Pak mudslinging. Just a few points:

-I dont think I had criticised Pakistan, there was quite a bit of positive things I had said in that comment; the comment about hate was a direct response to what the author had noted;

-I made no reference to Pakistani films. I haven`t seen any. I have been trying to get Khamosh Pani for a long time but no one carries it. Unlike Indian films which are reviewed regularly even in New York Times (today`s edition carries a review of a film ``Shwaas``), one rarely hears about any Pakistni film, even at chowk. I do remember that a rare Pakistani blockbuster reviewed at chowk a year or so ago had a story line where all hindu Indian characters were cunning, coward and beastly. But it would be wrong on my part to generalise on the basis of one film. Indian films like Nastik, Garam Hawa, Earth 1947 and Pinjar give a fairly balanced view, even the hate-filled Gadar had a few redeeming Pakistani muslim characters.

-You claim to know a lot more about India than Indians do about Pakistan but your posts show a very superficial knowledge; I doubt if you ever read any mainstream Indian newspapers, except milliegazette and BJP websites. I have been a regular reader of Dawn and occasionally read some others, including Urdu newspapers. So, I am pretty confident when I talk about Pakistan. Just to remind you, I had gauged Musharraf about whom we both largely agree, even before you did. In any case, any Indian who has spent years on chowk cannot possibly be ignorant about Pakistan, unless you guys are total nincompoops who dont know anything about your country. On the contrary, I think that chowk reflects a wide spectrum of Pakistani viewpoints.

-I did make statement about Pakistani textbooks and media. As I said I do read Dawn regularly, including the coverage of Vajpayee`s Lahore yaatra. I am quite aware of what they say about India, Indians and Hindus. As I said, things are much better than they used to be. As regards the texts, the curricula of relating to textbooks have been reproduced at chowk several times, even on this board, and if you are questioning me on that, I would assume that you dont even read what is posted here.

-Re. Siachen, what you keep repeating is the Pakistani version. Indians have their own version and God knows who is right and who is wrong.

In reply to ``#95 by Romair ``

``What is the basis of the unrealistic picture that the Indians have of Pakistan. It has to be something. My guess is that it must be the Indian movies, media and schools. ``

I wonder what was the basis of the unrealistic picture that the Bengalis had of Pakistan in 1971 when they were hounding the urdu speaking pakistanis.

I also wonder what was the basis of the unrealistic picture that the Uzbeks/Tajiks/Shiites of Afghanistan had of Pakistan after the downfall of Taliban when they were beating/humiliating the urdu/punjabi speaking pakistanis.

Yesssss, it must be the Indian movies, media and schools.

Jai Hind

re: #65 by rsridhar

IITs may be excellent institutes in their own stead. However, they are also rather overhyped. This inflated my own expectations about IIT wallahs. The reality is that most students are good only at group assignments (in which they can collaborate with other Indian students). But in individuals exams, presentations and class participation... I found the IIT students to be quite mediocre. Whether this was a feature of that batch of students or a general malaise, is hard to conclude.

To say the least, nobody can make blanket statements like IITs are better than Harvard/Stanford/MIT or even Pakistan`s LUMS. Individual students may be better in some cases or batches. But institutional superiority of IITs is pure hype.

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#57 by bbabu

++
I do not how good Pakistani institutions are. I doubt they will ever match the IITs/IIMs. It is the law of big numbers. Odds are you will find more smart people among 1 billion+ Indians than 140 million Pakistanis
++

The population of USA is just 250 million. Does that mean IITs/IIMs are 4-times better than Harvard, MIT and Stanford?? The law of big numbers is a flawed assumption. When it comes to quality education, size does not matter! A kid who attends a top-class high school in Lahore is more likely to create the next big invention, than 10 kids who attend an average high-school in Bombay. It all boils down to the amount of money a university can afford to spend on its facilities and faculty. The Pakistani institutions that I am talking about are very well funded.

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