Proud to be a Pakistani?

re:#199 by GuruJee
Let us see again. You said that you knew a guy who failed in LUMS but received top honors in one of the top American universities. How does that make LUMS better than IIT?
Looks like u have no logic.
Sridhar

re:#206 by HP
``In the medical technology area, the situation is almost identical. Pakistani doctors in the US do as well as the Indians.``
At least i can speak with authority on this subject, being a doctor myself. I have met many Pakis during Residency in USA. One of my best friends was a Pakistani from Karachi. He told me that there is nothing equivalent to an MD in Pakistan. In other words, if i were to believe him, Pak offers only MBBS degree and perhaps a diploma in most colleges and Universities (here i will exclude some reputed places like Agha Khan). My friend and some other Pakis in the program were good but not as good as some Indians who already had an MD under their belts and were on a fast track to finsih the residency.

In India, there are some very well known medical centers/universities offering post-graduate courses as well as Fellowships (or their equivalent designations).
One good measure of how good medical colleges are in either country would be to look at the number of papers being submitted to international journals. My guess is the number is much larger in India.
Sridhar

197 by escapist

``All thanks and Praises are due to Allah (swt) who gave human beings the gift of reason and a discerning mind.

And hold fast, all together, by the rope which Allah (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves; and remember with gratitude Allah`s favour on you; for ye were enemies and He joined your hearts in love, so that by His Grace, ye became brethren; and ye were on the brink of the pit of Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus doth Allah make His Signs clear to you: That ye may be guided. (TMQ Surah Ali-Imran 103)``

A very important verse of the Quran-e-Hakeem indeed. This is one of the few verses of the Quran which bring out the true civilising, humanistic and, excuse me to say, secularistic nature of its message. Who are the addressees here of the favour of Allah; niether `mushrikeen` nor `momimeen` or the Muslims but only the Arabs. Don`t be surprised. Allah had saved their Kahbah before advent of Mohammadan Islam even when hundreds of idols were being worshiped there from Ibrah, a non-Arab Christian Islamist by sending `ababeels`- vide Suratulfeel(the Elephant).

So what the reason and the descerning mind finds from the said verses is that Allah may help the mushrakeen and the kafirs alike but not the sectarian hypocrites (munafiqeen) as the so called Muslims, by and large, are.

HP #206
As far as I know Punjab engineering college (was it at Lahore?) was supposed to be a good college at the time of partition? Atleast one part of it moved to India. Not sure if there was any left in Pakistan from that college.
But you are correct that many engineering colleges in India were already well established.

As far as your interest in ``finding out how many Indians from these institute actually graduate in core engineering such as Mechanical, Electrical, civil or chemical engineering. ``

Each of the IITs typically has an entry level batch of about 400-500. Out of this 35-40 are for pure computer science. Rest are distributed over other core fields. It is a different matter that IT related industries absorb about 30-40% of the final output. A significant percentage of graduates enters management courses and another significant percentage does enter technical fields.

As far as most of the Indians being in entry level position of coding - most of the IT engineers came to US within last few years. There is nothing bad in doing coding for few years. Coding is not just typing but also learning algorthms, constraints and business processes.
A very significant percentage of IT Indians is now in technical management. 6 figure salaries are not rare (in fact quire common). I can guess atleast 100 in my immediate circle. Junior/new arrivals do not get 6 figure but they are really not expected to.

And you seem to have wrong idea about six figure salaries in non-IT engineering careers.
A civil engineer has to really acquire a hard-to-get professional certification in US. But salaries are really not comparable to IT graduates. Same is true for Mechanical engineers. (Not that is justified.. )...

This is only FYI - with no intention of starting a mudfest

#201 kaalchakra
”This IIT/IIM - Pakistani educational institutions debate is totally unproductive. Even if it were ever resolved, it won`t prove much.”

On the contrary, I think these are productive debates if the purpose is not to prove that Indians are some kind of a superior race.

There is no doubt that some Indian institutions are high class and their products are hopefully top notch too. Pakistan has lots of catching up to do in this area but if you look at the lag time India had in developing its educational institutions, Pakistan has not done poorly at all.
In 1947, India already had some established institutions that had almost a hundred years history of excellence behind them. Whereas Pakistan started with I think one or two universities that were not in any contention of educational excellence before partition. With that background in mind, I think Some of Pakistani institutions have done real well.
IMO, there are several aspects of quality education just not a few institutions. Top of the line Indian educational institutions produce about 2 to 5 % of total graduate in India. Out of that a good number in IT discipline leave the country and end up doing low paying jobs like writing code.
I would be interested in finding out how many Indians from these institute actually graduate in core engineering such as Mechanical, Electrical, civil or chemical engineering.
Then we have to look at some high-class institutions in the Medical field also.
For comparison sake, I would say that Pakistan in core Engineering discipline competes well with Indians and that is evident in the numbers of Pakistani engineers that match well with Indian engineers in the US marketplace. In the medical technology area, the situation is almost identical. Pakistani doctors in the US do as well as the Indians.

But the real comparison comes in the second and third tier schools, colleges and universities in both countries. There is a whole under class that goes thru those colleges and I just don’t see any difference in the core 95% of education in India and Pakistan.

IT, IMO, is still not a core engineering technology. That is evident from the marketplace at least in the USA.
Most of the Indians are in reality entry-level position of coding no matter what institute they got their degrees from. The difference between core engg and IT is evident in the Salary structure.
There aren’t very many coders that break the six figures barrier. And it is true for both Indians and other locals. In terms of education one rarely sees an American with degree from top institute and toiling as a coder.
Whereas in the core technology group engineers start breaking the six figure barrier with only a few years of experience under their belt.
Comparison in IT is not fair either as this technology did not catch on in Pakistan as it did in India.

In terms of IT’s contribution to Indian foreign Exchange, It is actually not a whole lot. $10 billion is still not the top contribution. The higher percentage still comes from the NRIs and that means that despite years of development India has still not gone beyond the benefits of human trade.
Indian foreign exchange reserves are higher because of the 911 and the US cracking down n Hawala. (Btw, Hawala actually started in India). In the last three years both Indian and Pakistan FE reserves have gone up because now NRI and expat Pakistanis are forced to send remittance thru the legal means rather than the Hawala.
There is ratio of 1:20 in terms of Indian and Pakistanis outside of both countries and that difference shows up in foreign exchange reserves where Pakistani reserves are approx $13 billions and Indians about $125 Billion.

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#196 by takat...

if pakistan suffers from so called `militancy` as someone so wisely claimed, then india suffers from communal strife.

`militancy`??? What a soft labelling on hardcore barbarism....

India has multitude of communities and the only communal strife is with Muslims. Same holds true for the world over, ask me for examples. Why is it like that???

the system was complicit
Rather the system was self-reactionary. When islamic maniacs shamelessly attack the system, then mullah taqat goes to sleep, and when there is a rebuke he feels the pinch.

hip hip hurray for `secular` india!

Hurray indeed. At least India has claim over secularism, pakis don`t have even that!

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rsridhar: I can only say that you are more dumber than I thought. By any chance did you study in IIT? :-) It doesn`t take an Einstein to figure out what I had meant in my statement!

arjun_m: You indeed are totally ignorant. I don`t really care if it doesn`t matter to you. There are many things in life which exist beyond internet e.g: life`s experiences whose veracity is simply priceless. By all means go ahead and live in your own illusions of grandeur like all your countrymen. After all you are citizens of ``GREATEST Country in the World`` :-)

escapist # 197

``The Indians and the Soviets supported the Bengali nationalists because it would weaken both Pakistan and Bangladesh and thus increase their influence and decrease competition in the region``

This is very short-sighted.

By using Islam as an anti-India, anti-Soviet, and anti-Bengali nationalist tool, you are exposing it to counter attacks from those whom you seek to attack. Religion would not be assaulted if you did not use it to assault others.

This IIT/IIM - Pakistani educational institutions debate is totally unproductive. Even if it were ever resolved, it won`t prove much.

#196 by taqat-e-parvaaz

you are wrong. indians are not claiming that they are superior to the chinese. all they claim is that they have some legitimate sources of pride, and many pakistanis do take inspiration from that.

there are some interesting relationships at play here. india is a sibling. china has geo-political abitions and pakistan is a ready pawn in that. india sees china as a rival and pakistan as a pest. india and china have agreed to keep their rivalry in a productive mode. although china is a major mai-baap in supplying alms (i menat arms..my dyslexia kicking in), most pakistanis are not really able to relate to them, but can easily relate to indian ethos, and conditions.

teshah, sridar, nikki:

I have expressed my views re. kashmir before and will reiterate them again when the occasion arises. But I think we should not distract from the interesting discussion on education at this board.

its pathetic how indians still can claim that they are superior to the chinese when india has not accomplished half of what the chinese do. and its so easy to say that bhindia comes out ahead of pakistan in most aspects of civil society. lets not forget that this is a country where the masses still sleep on the street in calcutta and where there is a degrading caste system still in place. how advanced. your IIT`s are of no use if they cannot compete with china. after all thats the country you guys should compare yourself to. your populations are the same. rationally speaking, its insane to think that pakistan can compete with india in every matter. the fact remains that the chinese could economically, and militarily (hehe), whoop india back to the stone age. manmohan singh would go begging russia, with his trusty mouthwash and kneepads!!
i have not defended the actions of the pakistani army in bangladesh. what happened there was reprehensible. but lets not turn the attention away from what the original issue was. if pakistan suffers from so called `militancy` as someone so wisely claimed, then india suffers from communal strife. the muslims were systematically this time around swept from their homes and the government was complicit in it. the police was complicit. the system was complicit. gujrat reeked of an official genocide. hip hip hurray for `secular` india!

And reply to that question / comment was :

Assalmu Alaikum Sister

All thanks and Praises are due to Allah (swt) who gave human beings the gift of reason and a discerning mind.

And hold fast, all together, by the rope which Allah (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves; and remember with gratitude Allah`s favour on you; for ye were enemies and He joined your hearts in love, so that by His Grace, ye became brethren; and ye were on the brink of the pit of Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus doth Allah make His Signs clear to you: That ye may be guided. (TMQ Surah Ali-Imran 103)


Thank you for your email.

When we look for potential causes of division between people of the world, we can find many, all arising from differences between them. People can be divided based upon their family, their tribe, their race or colour, their language, their religion, their wealth, what music they listen to, what football team they support and so on. These divisions are rife throughout the world, with individuals adhering to a particular identity and a particular grouping. Differences between people become actual divisions. These divisions often set the various groups as potential or actual rivals.

Mankind seems prone to division and rivalry, not to unity and camaraderie. Arbitrary differences such as race or language have become a justification for enmity, injustice and exploitation. History is rife with past examples and little has changed. The strife between Pakistan and Bangladesh occurred because of their divisions in language, tribe and race in spite of their common faith, not because of it.

Capitalism and secular ideology has laid happiness as an objective of life for its adherents. This happiness lies in the fulfilment of desires and ambitions. Societies embracing such an ideology contain people, generally preoccupied with their own prosperity. Naturally, the governments of such countries are similarly preoccupied with the prosperity of the nation, notwithstanding the politicians’ preoccupation with themselves.

This world, plagued with arbitrary divisions, driven by a preoccupation with personal gratification, has witnessed a succession of brutal and inhuman wars between different tribes and nations. Often it is not justice that is sought, but the acquisition of land, influence and money that spurs the conflicting parties. This is a general explanation that applies to the imperialist periods of the British, French and Spanish, the First and Second World Wars, the many African Wars and so on, accepting some specifics to each case. Indeed, Bangladesh has been plagued by brutal political violence since its inception, adherents of different parties believing that their view of the future excuses violence against those of a different opinion.

Far more difficult to find are sources of unity between people. If a true unity could be achieved between people of different languages, races and nations, this unnecessary spillage of blood could be avoided and prosperity would be closer for everyone. The Europeans have recognised this, forging treaty after treaty to achieve a modicum of unity. Even after decades of peace, they remain divided on many vital issues as each seeks to protect their own national interests.

It is historical fact that Islam succeeded time and again to unite people of different tribes, races and languages under one banner. After its advent, previously warring Arab tribes, Persians, Africans, Turkomen, Europeans, South and South East Asians enjoyed periods of unprecedented unity. From its inception, it sought to destroy the prejudices between people of different colours and tribes and unite them to a new brotherhood.

This was based, not only on faith, but on true political unity in an ideological state, the Khilafah, whose founding principles forbade prejudice based upon these arbitrary factors such as language or race.

Muslims must rise above petty divisions based on their differences. They receive no justice or success by recognising them but harm themselves and each other. To do this it is necessary for every Muslim to realise that, in the fact that he or she worships Allah (swt), he or she is obliged with certain actions and forbidden from certain actions, and upon this they will be accountable. It becomes clear that language, race or nationality is not a matter that makes any difference before Allah (swt). Further, the Prophet (saw) declared that;

It is sufficient evil for a Muslim that he should look down upon his brother. The life, wealth, and honour of a Muslim are inviolable by another Muslim [Sahih Muslim].

Therefore, Islam stands above the divisions between men and the true belief and application of Islam can unite the hearts of mankind. In contrast nationalism and tribalism stokes division, rivalry, hatred and bloodshed between men.

The Indians and the Soviets supported the Bengali nationalists because it would weaken both Pakistan and Bangladesh and thus increase their influence and decrease competition in the region.

Just as in the past Islam united bitter rivals, with patience upon the elevated principles that Islam upholds, if Allah (swt) wills, he will reunite this Ummah on truth, decency and justice.

…and remember with gratitude Allah`s favour on you; for ye were enemies and He joined your hearts in love, so that by His Grace, ye became brethren; and ye were on the brink of the pit of Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus doth Allah make His Signs clear to you: That ye may be guided. (TMQ Surah Ali-Imran 103)

Source: Khilafah.com

re:#182 by dost-mittar
I do not know why some of u guys are already jumping on the ``peace with Pak`` bandwagon. Just as a Tiger will not change its stripes (or, to use an analogy nearer home, one cannot straighten a dog`s tail), Pak dictator and the ruling elite will not change their tactics towards India. I see no reason they have to. Mushy is keeping US happy by doing its bidding. He is now getting a massive military aid, which is only going to make him more belligerant towards India.
Except a lot of rhetoric, i have not seen much happen on the ground level. Unless one assumes that the road map to Kashmir solution has already been written by USA and agreed upon by India and Pak and the events are slowly unfolding now (Pak agreeing to shun away from third party mediation, not talking about UN mediation anymore, India agreeing to a substantial talk on Kashmir, Hurriyat being involved slowly, US agreeing to massive aid: all pointers to a drama whose script has already been written by USA and now being playacted by India and Pak), there is no reason to believe that Pak has changed its track.
Sridhar