Proud to be a Pakistani?

I risk supplying Pakistanis with further ammo, but Indians also need to realize that IITs are overhyped a bit! Its true, there are thousands of Indians in mediocre Indian schools while the numbers are considerably lesser in good schools. Thats not the case with Chinese students. Indian students are street smart, less likely to sweat than their Chinese counterparts. That is the reason you see most Indian students doing just their MS and getting into industry while the Chinese finish with their PhDs. IITs are very good for undergrad education, because of the murderous peer pressure, which is not the case for post-grad education. Hopefully, in the years to come, Indian students will start learning from their peers in the far-east the value of good research and hard-work. Its good we guys are flooding the mediocre schools atleast, for we will know how to differentiate hype from reality and will definitely raise the bar.

Nice article Ahmed...I agree with most of what you have written. I think there has always been a sense of realisation within Pakistan that education matters most, but unfortunately those in power continue to pursue senseless agendas...driven by concerns about national security, which in reality means little. With superpowers supporting Pakistan`s miltary dictators, it should come as little surprise that the most power institution in the country is the army. Indeed, we have an army to be proud of, but unfortunately little else...

#152 by nikki7777

Thanks for your detailed comments. :) My posts were strictly related to the university I graduated from and the company I work for. Where did you see the comparisons part?

#154 by bbabu

The most recent Microsoft full-time hires from GIKI alumni joined in 2003, followed by some interns in 2004. There are still many job openings in Microsoft and product teams have a tough time finding the right candidates. I would encourage anyone with the right skills and aptitude to apply. Thanks.

#155
``hey teach chemistry, physics for engineering graduates. They do not do research``

So you`re top university just regurgitates information year after year.Yes that will get you places.keep it up.

wait for the apple to fall on your head.Actually i hope its a watermelon. :)

re:#150 by anilkv
Even today, talent is not nurtured in India. I have seen talented people suffer amidst mediocrity in India. Unlike USA, where talented people are spotted from early on and encouraged, there are no such efforts taken in India.
I am not disheartened at seeing young people go into Engineering and wanting do earn money and settle down in life. This is what everyone wants. Market forces are deciding what is good for India.
But Nobel Laureates are a breed apart. In the last 50 years, majority of them have from one country. You have guessed it: USA. Why?
Because USA has been attracting best talents for the last 50 years, that`s all. I personally know a university topper in Delhi who went to JIPMER, then to PGI Chandigarh for MD, then did his specialisation in Plastic Surgery and was so frustrated that he was wanting to migrate to USA. I used to have a colleague from Bombay during my Residency days who was an MCh (a surgeon) who was doing a Pediatric residency!
When a nation does not recognize talented people, that nation withers away slowly. Unfortunately, in India of today, the only people who seem to matter are the movie stars and the cricketers. Everybody else is rotting away slowly.
Sridhar

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More I check faculty details of ``premier`` Pakistani Universities as posted on their internet sites, more convinced I get about frustrations faced by Ahmed Sadozai.

Any ordinary undergrad college in Delhi has dozens of PhDs in faculty - perhpas more than that appear to be listed on web sites of NUSTs and GIKs. In fact, nothing less that M.Phil is acceptable in an accredited college.
IITs or other premier institutes have only PhDs or above in teaching staff.

GuruJee #144

`` But they do teach Chemistry, Biochemistry, Chemical engineering and Physics. Why is that the IIT faculty doesn’t win Nobel Prize ever? Or hired a faculty member who has won a Nobel Prize? ``

They teach chemistry, physics for engineering graduates. They do not do research.

`` My friend, for every Pakistani who gets the Visa, there are 100 who get rejected. I guess its just adding two zeros after 1 in our case ;-) I am complaining? I am just trying to clear the perennial myth perpetuated by likes of you regarding IITs and your countrymen are using expletives and losing their temper. Truth does hurt! Ouch! ;-) ``

Why give any Pakistanis visas as long as you shelter likes of Osama !!! Convenient not to answer certain things.

AhmadBilal #143

`` Microsoft’s first major hiring drive for Pakistan was in 2000. At that time, we were interviewed with rest of the candidates from the Middle East region in Dubai. Just a few months later, the hiring managers told us that they were very happy with the quality of fresh graduates they were getting from Pakistan, and that’s why the next major hiring event for Pakistan was arranged in Lahore. GIKI is a new university, and in 2000, only 6 batches of engineers had graduated from there, which means around 250 computer engineers. Out of those 250, currently 25 are working at Microsoft in the US, which is an impressive 10% for a new university. Other GIKI graduates are also well-placed in top graduate schools and businesses all over the world. Thanks.``

In 2000 anyone off the street was being hired. how about 2002 and 2003 ?

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#127 by bbabu on December 10, 2004 6:03pm PT


``The simple reason being Pakistan has been bad at creating any institution (that includes your mediocre military !!!) and the law of large numbers. ``

PAki military is at best a rogue institution - full of careerist, megalomanics who think they know the answer to all the problems of Pakistan (and India).

In reply to #144 by GuruJee

``Netizen: I do not want to compare our Universties with your’s. Not every one of our student is better than your’s nor your every student is better than our’s. It matters from individual to individual. IITs students maybe very good but that doesn’t mean that “IITs are better than M.I.T.” MIT routinely rejects perfect GRE scorers. I presented a factual analysis of MIT and IITs and some yardsticks to judge an educational instituition. To put the debate to rest, I leave the result to readers. I do not harbor grudge or hate against anybody. Just presented the facts.``

Dude are you even reading my comments?

I don`t think so. In my comment # 103, I am asking people not to convert this discussion into ``tutu-meinmein`` kind. Its futile to compare Indian and Pak Univs. I don`t think IIT`s were built to show the world that India has the best univ, it was built to help in nation building. Infact I myself would like a lot more improvement in research and development initiatives taken by IITs/IIMs. About MIT, I didn`t even mention it in my comment. For more info please go back to that comment. I never alleged that Pak univ are inferior to IIT`s or any other Indian Univ. I don`t even know what GIKI, and other acronyms stand for, let alone commeting on their standards. I will once again repeat if Pak Univ are better than IITs/IIMs, its good for them as well as for Pak. I doesn`t bother me.

You had also mentioned about me getting emotional. My only other comments are #114, #115 which were specifically to Romair`s comment #95. These comments were basically the answers to the questions Romair had raised to all Indians. These were not emotional outbursts but rational replies to his queries. I still have more many more things to tell him, I am justing waiting for his reply. Romair, of you reading this post please let me know whether you are satisfied with the answers given by all the Indians.

In reply to
``Why is that the IIT faculty doesn’t win Nobel Prize ever? Or hired a faculty member who has won a Nobel Prize? ``

I am not obvious to the fact that IIT and other premier indian inst. should put effort to domore of basic research. Regarding hiring Nobel prize winning faculty, it will too expensive to hire him. Also, I don`t think India is ready for Western profesionals to immigrate and work.

Last but not the least, by concluding my post with ``Hail India`` slogan doesn`t mean that I am getting emotional while writing it.

Jai Hind

#134 rsridhar, #125jang
Nobel Prizes ?? I thought they were given for pure sciences and medicine, economics, lit and peace..
I think the market conditions in india are currently biased against a nobel :), not to mention mummy`s pressure to get a good job and get lot`s of dowry :)

I once heard arun shourie`s lecture where he said the market success of the engineering discipline has had its unwanted side affects in india .. people want to enter engg discpline, and then head for america graduate and find jobs.. make money fast and get beautiful girl to marry from india :) with lots of dowry if possible :)) . that is why we see vinod khoslas and not ramans.. and the ITpayscale is sucking up what ever else is left of good talent in india..

If the Indian gov. can create today an IISc that takes in undergraduates from the JEE stream for science education, and then is able to keep them for graduate level research, we might have a shot at the nobel 20 years down the road.. otherwise we might have to wait for a while ..
The current path for a poor sod in science education in india is the BSc, MSc, IISc, post doc some foriegn univ, returns to india for a national lab job .. any piece of equipment you want to buy has to go thru a long bureaucratic tussle.. and is anyway too expensive to afford.. no futuristic research posible with babus lording around.. all this doesn`t hold too much promise for a nobel.. unless there is a raman or kurana hidden somewhere in the backwaters..

i think the above is way too generalized, but is close to reality, with exceptions ofcourse..

#147 anilkv,
GIK`s web site shows 4 or 5 faculty members for electronic and computers department and not all of them are PhDs.. Such a department in any IIT will have more than 15 or 20 faculty members, or for that matter, even a regional engineering college will have more than a dozen.

May be our resident captain clueless is again applying ratio of 1:7. One Pakistani faculty is as good as 7 indian faculty members.

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But what is a Paki to do?

Interesting read.

http://www.bandbaja.org/issues/007/features/paki.php