Proud to be a Pakistani?

re: education system in Pak: a Paki perspective
http://www.sulekha.com/news/nhc.aspx?cid=411211

(COMMENT: The mess we have made of education —IM Mohsin

Those who cannot afford to put their children even in government schools are obliged to send them to madrassas which offer free lodging and boarding besides the religious education. Up to the age of 18 these children are generally insulated from any broad-based knowledge. No wonder they develop a characteristic mindset

The General appears to be learning. About two years ago, he propounded that the study of subjects like philosophy and social sciences was a waste of time. Now he talks differently. He told the Khyber Medical College students in Peshawar recently that no nation can progress without the spread of education. Whoever brought about such awareness in him deserves the nation’ gratitude.

The General’s advisers, looking for quick fixes to impress the ‘strongman’, have, however, led him down the garden-path. He alleged in Peshawar that our system of education is bad because of the weakness at the primary level. The higher levels, he said, remain good. Such assessment stems from ignorance of the ground reality. The ignorance may be due to the following reasons.

First, an apartheid exists in the world of schooling. The rich (including the army officers) send their children to private/ cantonment schools that can maintain reasonable standards of education. The public schools meant for the poor and the middle classes have gone to dogs. Not being accountable, the General and his hangers-on have no idea of what happens to the majority of the population. Admission to even such sham schools is not easy as population pressure mounts. Those who cannot afford to put their children even in such schools are obliged to send them to madrassas which offer free lodging and boarding besides the religious education. Up to the age of 18 these children are generally insulated from any broad-based knowledge. No wonder, they develop a characteristic mindset.

Second, like those who seized power before him, the General talks of national progress. He fails to understand that nowadays nations cannot develop under the barrel of the gun. Cracks are already appearing in our polity due to the despondency caused by an authoritarian dispensation. The debit being raised against national integration cannot match the show put up by the king. No nation has progressed without living by a constitution that guarantees the Rule of Law and promotes freethinking. Those insisting on a different course have ended up as failed states.

Third, the General may be given the benefit of doubt. He may be truly unaware of what is happening in the world of education. Seizing power in a country like ours is far easier than implementing a reforms agenda in the education sector. It requires men of excellence in various disciplines who have the capacity to focus objectively on the relevant issues and the courage to say what is right, whatever the cost.

Fourth, we fumbled very early as a people and sacrificed merit at the altar of expediency and nepotism. In education sector, more than any other area, such unwise policies play havoc. Has any of our universities produced worthwhile research in any field since Ayub Khan’s martial law? Like all other institutions, education has suffered due to the suppression inherent in the rule by unconstitutional tactics leading to virtual suspension of civil liberties. The job of vice-chancellor, particularly, is coveted by retired generals. No wonder, the educational standards are plummeting. Such environment does not promote research or quality education. Generally, it produces yes-men who have no time for serious deliberation.

True to type, the General is being misled into believing that we will soon rival Sweden under his ‘stability’. Our academic degrees stand discredited abroad. World Bank reports show us at par with sub-Saharan Africa in terms of human resource development. A look at the leading international universities would indicate how badly placed we are. Very rarely does one across a Pakistani nowadays. Instead, you run into Indians, mainly Hindus, in large numbers.

Plagued by the lack of erudite teachers, credible libraries and educational environment conducive to progress, our students tend to be sidelined. The situation is aggravated by the utter disregard of merit that goes on with impunity. The only Pakistani students in top US schools today are the exceptionally gifted or those who gained a competitive edge through exposure to foreign teachers/institutions.

The recent experiments in developing a regime of liberal educational institutions in the private sector is proving a costly sham. Public funds are in the process being wasted on publicity for the government. It is not uncommon, as a result, to find people having MA, MBA and LLB degrees who are unable to converse in English or write a few lines. This is because the national approach to learning is perfunctory. Our prospects remain bleak because education can’t flourish in a no-trust society. Eaten up by the canker of corruption, our national ethos reflects little of Islamic attributes just as our frequent submission to the authoritarian regimes makes the state a parody of a republic.

Education is not just an administrative problem that can be set right by an executive order from the ‘supremo’. No army in the world has any locus standi in this field. It involves intellectual exercise, generally alien to the army culture. It flourishes best in a free society that allows no discrimination and protects the rights of the individual.

Educational reform will remain a pipedream so long as we do not change our hypocritical ways. It is a great tragedy that Islam’s first injunction was iqra (Read) and we are one of the most illiterate people in the world. The vested interests ruling the nation today are ambivalent about the spread of education. An educated population, they seem convinced, would not submit to the barrel of the gun.

The writer is a former secretary of the Ministry of Interior)
Sridhar

In reply to #255 by GuruJee

``arjun_m, Netizen start your IIT-mantra now! : ``IIT is better than...``

You seem to be an incorrigible person. I have repeated told you about my stance on IIT`s which is nothing sort of what you are trying to paint. Once again go and read my posts and tell me where have I compared IIT to any other institutes, let alone to declare them superior to others. What I have been telling is some positives and negatives.
I was going through a magazine and got some more articles for you and your ilk
Here is the link
http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20041227&fname=IIT+%28F%29&sid=1
This article is not intended to claim any superior status for IIT`s in india or abroad. It is not intended to claim that they are the ``best`` universities in the world. If you disagree with the article you are welcome to put forth your views.
And please read my posts before replying.

Jai Hind

read on to know why Musharaff is the most dangerous man for the Indo - PAk peace............

``Adding to the danger was evidence that Sharif neither knew everything his military high command was doing nor had complete control over it. When Clinton asked him if he understood how far along his military was in preparing nuclear-armed missiles for possible use in a war against India, Sharif acted as though he was genuinely surprised. He could believe that the Indians were taking such steps, he said, but he neither acknowledged nor seemed aware of anything like that on his own side.

Clinton decided to invoke the Cuban missile crisis, noting that it had been a formative experience for him (he was sixteen at the time). Now India and Pakistan were similarly on the edge of a precipice. If even one bomb were used…Sharif finished the sentence: “. . . it would be a catastrophe.”
[Clinton] returned to the offensive. He could see they were getting nowhere. Fearing that might be the result, he had a statement ready to release to the press in time for the evening news shows that would lay all the blame for the crisis on Pakistan.

Sharif went ashen.
Clinton bore down harder. Having listened to Sharif’s complaints against the United States, he had a list of his own, and it started with terrorism. Pakistan was the principal sponsor of the Taliban, which in turn allowed Osama bin Laden to run his worldwide network out of Afghanistan. Clinton had asked Sharif repeatedly to cooperate in bringing Osama to justice. Sharif had promised to do so but failed to deliver. The statement the United States would make to the press would mention Pakistan’s role in supporting terrorism in Afghanistan—and, through its backing of Kashmiri militants, in India as well. Was that what Sharif wanted? ``

From Matloff:

[A] couple of months ago I made some very critical comments here about a 60 Minutes puff piece on the Indian Institutes of Technology (IIT). To hear 60 Minutes tell it, all IIT grads are geniuses, and Silicon Valley would be helpless without them. My point was that yes, a few IIT grads are indeed extraordinarily talented, but most are merely good, on a par with many good American students, but not the u``ber intellects claimed by 60 Minutes.

AsiaWeek magazine rated IIT only third-rank just in Asia, let alone the rest of the world. I don`t think their survey was very good, but the point is that the curriculum in the IITs is often pedestrian and out of date, and neither the curriculum nor the faculty can match any of the top universities in the U.S. The IIT faculty haven`t produced the seminal research papers, the breakthrough patents, the authoritative textbooks which the faculty of any world-class university should have.

I said that I can sympathize with the Indo-American immigrants who are proud that India has made a lot of economic progress. Good for them. But I resent hype, especially hype deliberately set up by expensive PR firms. It turned out that the 60 Minutes piece came out at a time during which there was a big PR push to promote what the Indians called ``Brand IIT.``

I also resent seeing 60 Minutes, a show I generally find to be informative, to be presenting such a fawning, unbalanced advertisement under the guise of ``news.`` (60 Minutes says that they did the show not at the behest of the PR firm, but rather ``at the suggestion of an Indian doctor.``)

Now enclosed below is an article from an Indian magazine, sent to me by a reader, which shows the 60 Minutes fiasco to be even worse than it had first appeared. Here is what is going on:

The 60 Minutes episode had included quite a bit of interview with Narayan Murthy, founder of Infosys, singing the praises of IIT as being not only the best in the world, but even ``out of this world.`` He cited the example of his own son, who was not good enough to get into IIT but was easily accepted into Cornell. Leslie Stahl, the interviewer, responded in a gee-whiz tone, ``Oh my gosh...Cornell was his SAFETY SCHOOL?!``

I responded by saying that (a) Murthy Jr. is getting a better education at Cornell than he would at IIT, and (b) it probably didn`t hurt his chances of admission at Cornell to have a rich and famous father, a potential huge donor.

Well, it turns out that Murthy Sr. is more than just rich and famous; he`s on the Cornell University Council :-)

GuruJee says: This was author`s response to the article:http://www.siliconindia.com/magazine/fullstory.asp?aid=AYS199505448

arjun_m, Netizen start your IIT-mantra now! : ``IIT is better than...``

Islamists and Hindutva Fascists: Two Sides of the Same Coin

This interview was conducted by Yoginder Singh Sikand with X, a social activist from Jammu and Kashmir who requested anonymity. Here, he talks about his views on a possible resolution of the Kashmir conflict.

MWU!: The ongoing violence in Jammu and Kashmir has severely impacted on inter-community relations in the state. What can be done to promote some sort of dialogue between the communities?

X: I agree with you when you say that inter-community relations here are not the same as they were two decades ago. At the same time I disagree with the argument that some people put forward that Hindus and Muslims simply cannot peacefully coexist. But I would admit that in Jammu and Kashmir there are people with extreme views in each community, who use religion to preach intolerance and hatred. This has happened all over South Asia, and not just in our state alone. Unfortunately, I do not think there are any organized efforts underway on the part of civil society organizations here to promote better inter-community relations.


MWU!: How do common Hindus and Muslims see each other? What has been the impact of rightwing Hindu and Islamist groups on such perceptions?

X: As I said, there has been a marked deterioration in relations between the different communities. Many Hindus and Muslims have come to see themselves, unfortunately, as adversaries. The RSS [a Hindu nationalist movement] now has a strong base among the Hindus, and Islamists have considerable support among some Muslims. But still, at the common level there is still a fair degree of tolerance and acceptance. For instance, there is a fairly sizeable Muslim community in Jammu town, which is Hindu dominated. The Muslims there generally feel safe, although there is always this fear that the massacre of Muslims in Jammu in 1947 could be repeated again. In Kashmir there are still some Pandit families left. Many Muslims feel that the Pandits who left the Valley should return, although some Kashmiri Muslim elites fear that if this happens the Pandits would again take up all the senior government posts that they occupied earlier, so that is another problem. I don’t agree with the theory that the militants forced the Pandits to flee. I think that while the Pandits must have feared the militants, the then governor, Jagmohan, actually enticed them to leave.

MWU!: How do you look at Islamist groups like the Lashkar-i Tayyeba and the Jama‘at-i Islami? Do you think they reflect the views of most Kashmiri Muslims?

X: These are armed groups and command most of whatever strength they do by the force of their weapons. They certainly do not represent the views and beliefs of most Muslims in Jammu and Kashmir, who do not agree with their understanding of Islam. The Lashkar and many people in the Jama‘at seem to think that you can be a proper Muslim only if you live in what they call an Islamic state, but this is not true. This argument is wrong, but it is a persuasive one for many. Before 1947 the Muslim League claimed that Islam needed a territory of its own to prosper. What followed was the ‘Islamic Republic’ of Pakistan, which is neither ‘Islamic’ nor a Republic! Don’t misunderstand me. I am a believing Muslim myself but I cannot agree with this notion that the mere fact that one shares the same religion with others means that one belongs to the same nationality and must live in the same state, which is what the Islamists argue. The hollowness of this claim was exposed no sooner had Pakistan come into being, with mounting ethnic, linguistic and sectarian tensions between the different Muslim groups living in that country. These factors played a more important role in Pakistani politics than Islam. Even today, because of the injustice that they feel subjected to, many Baluchis and Sindhis in Pakistan are demanding the right to self-determination. I fear that if Kashmir joins Pakistan, in a few decades the Kashmiris will also start demanding freedom from Pakistan and Punjabi domination.

MWU!: How do you feel that the problem of Kashmir can be eventually resolved?

X: Violence is no solution at all, and I think most Kashmiris now feel this way. Any solution to the issue, to be acceptable, must ensure that justice is done to all the ethnic, linguistic and religious groups living in the state. Otherwise, if the voices of some groups are suppressed there is bound to be constant instability. I think that any future political set-up for Jammu and Kashmir must necessarily be secular and democratic. This is not simply because of the large and significant non-Muslim minority in the state, but also because the single largest group, the Kashmiri Muslims, do not, as a whole, want to live under a so-called Islamist regime. And then, you must realize that the Muslims of the state are not a homogenous community. In addition to the Kashmiri Muslims, you have Dogra Muslims, Gujjars, Bakkarwals, Kargilis, Punjabi Muslims and so on, and they have their own diverse political views. I personally think that the majority of the Muslims of the state would not like to live in Pakistan, given its history of military rule, Punjabi domination, sectarian rivalries and backward economy. On the other hand, India is the cause of some of its own problems. It never allowed true democracy to function in Kashmir and consistently rigged the elections in the state. In any case, it is pointless discussing what has happened. I think no solution to the problem can afford to leave out the voices and aspirations of the people of Jammu and Kashmir. It is not simply a problem concerning India and Pakistan alone, and so the voices of the people of the state must also be taken into account. And by this I mean not simply the Kashmiri Muslims, but all ethnic, linguistic, sectarian and religious groups, Muslims and others, who live in both parts of the divided state of Jammu and Kashmir. The people of both parts should be allowed to interact and dialogue among themselves.

MWU!: What the advocates of Kashmir’s independence or accession to Pakistan generally overlook is the impact this might have on Hindu-Muslim relations in the rest of India. What do you have to say about this?

X: Yes, you are very right. There may be 10 million Muslims in Jammu and Kashmir, but Muslims in the rest of India number, say, 14 times that. It is obvious that if Kashmir becomes independent or joins Pakistan, Hindu fascist groups in India would be even further strengthened. It would further reinforce their argument that Muslims are communal, that they cannot be loyal to a non-Muslim state and so on. It might lead to a wave of attacks on Muslims in the rest of India and will perhaps even permanently ensure Hindutva hegemony in India. However, I do not think that the Islamists in Kashmir and Pakistan, who claim to be fighting to defend the rights of Muslims all over the world, are really bothered about what happens to the Indian Muslims if they succeed in their designs in Kashmir. It is the same as the position of the Muslim League when India was partitioned and Pakistan was created. The leaders of the Muslim League were not at all concerned about the fact that the Muslims in what became the Republic of India had to suffer, and continue to suffer even today, because of the Partition demand. So, I think that any solution to the Kashmir issue that ignores its possible consequences for the Indian Muslims, who account for 14 times the Kashmiri Muslim population, is unacceptable, even from the Islamic point of view, which the so-called Islamists conveniently forget.

MWU!: So what you are saying is that the radical Islamists and the Hindutva rightwing feed on each other, and, in a sense, need each other?

X: Yes, exactly. One always needs an opponent to justify one’s own aggressive intentions. So, that is why I say that Islamists and Hindutva fascists cannot survive without each other despite claiming to be the most inveterate foes. Islamist radicalism in Kashmir is, in a sense, a response to Hindutva aggression, and Hindutva gets further reinforced by Islamist radicalism. It is a vicious circle. The fear of Hindu hegemony also created Pakistan, although it is a different matter that this was no solution at all. It only further exacerbated the communal problem. Likewise, I think that if Kashmir becomes independent or joins Pakistan and what they see as their rival—India or the Hindus—are no longer on the scene, rival armed militant groups might start fighting each other, and we could witness a civil war as in Afghanistan.

MWU!: Islamists claim that they will establish what they call a ‘genuine’ Islamic state in Kashmir, which will ensure social justice and equity for all. How do you see this claim?

X: I think this is all empty propaganda. Can you tell me the name of even one Muslim country where such a state exists? These people have been fed on the writings of people like Maududi and Sayyid Qutb, who only created fanciful theories of their own. They do not have any clear economic program. They deliberately do not talk about the details of the polity that they want to establish, because they have no idea how to run a modern state. This is the same in the Hindu case as well. Hindutva ideologues say they want to establish Ram Rajya, but we know the sort of Rajya they want to establish means death and oppression. There is nothing as a blue-print provided in Islam, or in any other religion for that matter, for running a modern state. We need to think pragmatically, not in narrow ideological terms.

Yoginder Singh Sikand is a Reader in the Department of Islamic Studies at Hamdard University, New Delhi and editor of Qalandar, an online magazine devoted to a discussion of issues related to Islam and Inter-Faith Relations in South Asia. He received a Ph.D. in history from the University of London and has published numerous books and authored over 250 articles on Islamic studies-related topics.

HP #251

For reasons unrelated to our discussion I have been checking the CS faculty of mid-rung to top tier universities - UCSD, UCR, UCSB, UCLA, UCI, Penn State, Arizona, Utah, Washington, Oregon State, Kansas, UT - Austin, Georgia Tech. Top of my head I would say that the discrepancy between Indian and Pakistani professors is greater than 50 to 1.

HP #251
Disbelief shown by you and other Pakistani interactors really accentuates the frustrations faced by Sadozai. If appears that he was the only one who knew gap between standard of education offered between Pakistan and elsewhere.
You atleast was gracious enough to admit it. Almost all other interactors from Pakistan, knowingly or unknowingly, found it hard to believe that education system can be any better in any south asian country.
This appears to be one area where normal relationship could have helped Pakistan with a jumpstart. At this time, non-muslim south asian educators wont go to Pakistan because it not seen as secure friendly to no-muslims. Muslim educators, (of which there are plenty in India) would not go to Pakistan because they will be seen by Indian intelligence agencies as sympathetic to Pakistan. I notice that IBA is trying to get ``foreign professors``. You may find many Indian educators who will go for the sake of adventure, thrill or just to earn money - provided Pakistan`s atmosphere is condusive to non-muslim foreigners.

anilkv, friend, bbabu,

Thank you for the numbers and information. With this information at hand, I may have to rethink about the standard of education in India and Pakistan being equal in majority of the educational institutions. I believe that a strong faculty is the basis of better education at any level.
I hope some day Pakistani educational institutions would learn that. I believe some are doing it but most are still behind.
Thanks again my friends.

OK Tier-1 Univs, all faculty are from reputed foreign (american or british usually) or IIT, IISc PHDs, with solid post-doc experience which is almost always in an american or european institution.
Tier 2 and Tier 3 Universities, both government and private, it has to have PHDs with post-doc experience as faculty. Most of these PhDs are educated in india at Tier-1 and Tier-2 universities, and some come from decent but not great american unviersities. Almost all Tier-2 and Tier-3 universities and National Labs demand post-doctoral experience, which for most indian faculty is acquired in an indian federal research labs or defense labs. But the more promising go for post-docs to other countries.

This scenario is already so competetive that there is no dearth of good candidates for univ and national labs through out the country, IT or no IT.

Only some god forsaken univ in some rural corner may have insufficiently qualified (i.e. Masters only) teachers.

But there are a huge number of undergraduate collges (not univ) that teach BA/Bcom/BSc level generic education where the instructors are Masters level.

The number of Science and Technology CSIR exam qualified candidates last year alone was ~5500 candidates
http://www.csir.res.in/Profile.htm
To do a S&T PhD you should be GATE or CSIR exam qualified. Some of the GATE and CSIR exam qualified usually take up research jobs in Univ and National Labs, but almost all of them eventually do their PhDs because your work related research can be submitted as part of your thesis, and this results in a significant slary raise.

OK Tier-1 Univs, all faculty are from reputed foreign (american or british usually) or IIT, IISc PHDs, with solid post-doc experience which is almost always in an american or european institution.
Tier 2 and Tier 3 Universities, both government and private, it has to have PHDs with post-doc experience as faculty. Most of these PhDs are educated in india at Tier-1 and Tier-2 universities, and some come from decent but not great american unviersities. Almost all Tier-2 and Tier-3 universities and National Labs demand post-doctoral experience, which for most indian faculty is acquired in an indian federal research labs or defense labs. But the more promising go for post-docs to other countries.

This scenario is already so competetive that there is no dearth of good candidates for univ and national labs through out the country, IT or no IT.

Only some god forsaken univ in some rural corner may have insufficiently qualified (i.e. Masters only) teachers.

But there are a huge number of undergraduate collges (not univ) that teach BA/Bcom/BSc level generic education where the instructors are Masters level.

The number of Science and Technology CSIR exam qualified candidates last year alone was ~5500 candidates
http://www.csir.res.in/Profile.htm
To do a S&T PhD you should be GATE or CSIR exam qualified. Some of the GATE and CSIR exam qualified usually take up research jobs in Univ and National Labs, but almost all of them eventually do their PhDs because your work related research can be submitted as part of your thesis, and this results in a significant slary raise.

re: #228 by taqat-e-parvaaz
This article is for the viewing pleasures of taqat-e-whatever, HP, and Romair, for u too man!!
http://www.sulekha.com/news/cnews.aspx?type=&cat=latest&navdir=next&navno=410077



(India rising and diplomats crossing

What stood out in Delhi was the complete absence of loud verbal fights and abuse. Is this because the presence of women gentrifies men who can otherwise be so boorish?



Kamran Shafi

The writer is a retired army officer and a freelance columnist

kshafi1@yahoo.co.uk

My second trip to India in three years ended last Sunday when I returned through the Wagah border in the company of some friends. We had spent ten pleasant most days in Delhi. Traveling on the comfortable Shatabdi Express train we also took a day trip to Jaipur, where we visited the famous Amer (popularly called Amber) Fort and lunched at the quite stunning Rambagh Palace Hotel.

But first, general impressions, and Delhi, and how it has become so completely different from the Pakistan of today. The moment you cross the border you know that you are in a foreign country despite the fact that the same half-clad farmer carrying the same kahi (hoe) can be seen watering his wheat crop exactly like his counterpart in Pakistani Punjab. The same plastic bags that fly about and blight our villages and towns fly about and blight Indian villages and towns too. The same putrid and smelly water ponds with buffaloes wallowing in them are seen in Chichokimallian, Pakistan as they are in Attari, India.

So what is the glaring difference that jumps right at you and tells you as nothing else could, that you are in a vastly different country? The moment you enter a town, you see women and girls moving about as freely as men. Young women walk in the bazaars with confidence; ride bicycles and motor scooters; everyone goes about their business without even noticing that there are women around too! You get the impression, most of all, that despite so many similarities, including the same mad traffic, you are in a more civilised country where women do not scurry about like frightened rabbits, eyes cast down for fear of being pilloried as they are in this The Land of the Pure. And this, one might add, is an aspect of life particularly hurtful to people of my generation who grew into college life in the 60`s, when girls used to cycle to college in Lahore and Karachi, Rawalpindi and even Peshawar, without being looked at lasciviously, leave alone molested by words, taunts and vulgar innuendo.

Back in Delhi, our arrival at the railway station had the same feel as at any large Pakistani train station, only the sheer numbers were greater: crowds milling about, jostling, forcing their way by elbowing others aside, just like in Pakistan. What stood out in Delhi was the complete absence of loud verbal fights and abuse. Is this because the presence of women gentrifies men who can otherwise be so boorish? In contrast, one heard the most vulgar abuse being bandied about by two loutish taxi drivers at the Daewoo Bus Station in Lahore, as one arrived there from Wagah for onward travel to Rawalpindi.

You should see today`s Delhi! It is a thriving city, hotels full to brimming with foreigners -- tourists, investors, importers, journalists; its shops have undergone a sea change in the three years that I was there last, now looking (and feeling) like shops in any of the great capitals of the world. Shopkeepers and sales people are exceedingly polite, greeting you as you enter, thanking you even if you leave without making a purchase. The quality of goods is excellent, and the prices cheaper than back home, even after discounting the fact that the Indian rupee is now almost 25 per cent stronger than ours.

Talking of foreign businessmen in India, India`s foreign exchange reserves shot by three billion US dollars last month - ALL of it in Foreign Direct Investment - to 135 Billion US Dollars. Indeed, there were at least six high profile Italian textiles buyers in our train carriage, traveling to Amritsar for negotiations with Indian counterparts. In contrast, one wonders about the last time that Faisalabad, the center of Pakistani textiles, last saw a foreigner...

You should go see Delhi`s pulsating nightlife. Go to one of the many smart bars and restaurants that have recently opened, say, Olive, in an area called `Qutb`. That`s right, the name derives from the nearby Qutb Minar. The ambience is something to behold, its clientele made up of 65 per cent locals and 45 per cent foreigners, all having the time of their lives wining and dining on the finest the world has to offer.

While on the subject of recreation, Jaipur alone has five five-star hotels, all solidly booked months in advance. As noted in this same space some time back, `five-star` hotels in this country make India`s hotels of equal ranking appear at least seven-star. And they are expensive, VERY expensive. Still, the Rambagh has no rooms on offer until December 2005! We saw one bus-load of well heeled tourists leave and another arrive in the one hour that we were there.

India may not be `shining` as the BJP found to its cost, but it is certainly rising with every passing day. And where are we? Wallowing in self-pity; angry with the world; twisted in mind and spirit, looking for scapegoats for our own national failings. We`ve got to pull our fingers out if we are to get anywhere at all, and fast. We`ve missed the past few boats, could we please catch the next one that might happen along?

Back in Islamabad the Beautiful, an incident that may well not have happened in India -- on my way to my bank in the diplomatic enclave, I got caught at the check post at the enclave`s fenced and gated entrance. There were three vehicles ahead of me, at least ten behind, all waiting for the stream of mainly diplomatic cars from the opposite side to get by. A sleek Daimler Sovereign flying the Union Jack and carrying His Excellency the High Commissioner for Britain jumped the queue, trying to nose in front in typical taxi-driver style.

The stream of traffic from the other side was so solid that he could not get through and came to a halt directly to my right, blocking the road further. I saw red and began to blow my horn in the internationally recognised sign of annoyance. There was no reaction from the Daimler, save a casual glance from the chap sitting in the front with the driver. The Daimler then began to inch forward until His Excellency himself came alongside me. I continued to blow the horn, and said loudly ``Get back in line``. His Excellency studiously looked out the right rear window of his car, ignoring me, somebody whose space his car had violated. He quite rudely did not apologise as he jolly well should have done, but apparently it would have been below his station to apologise to a Pakistani nobody in an eighteen-year old little rattle-trap.

But then, why should he even think of doing the right thing by a common citizen, when he knows us for the grovellers we are? As a young diplomat posted here many years ago he knows how cheaply we sell ourselves - a drink now and then please, Sirji! More strength to you, Your Majesty; go break some more rules while you are here. Walk all over us for all you are worth, for there are few (who are more shameless than us.)
Sridhar

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HP #236
Man! you are somehow very intimidated by this $100K figure. I am also talking about $100K figure and I am again repeating that atleast 100+ in my immediate circle must be earning more than that in IT industry - that is in my city which is not a first tier IT city.

Any graduate or undergrauate college recognized by university grants commission is required to have no less than M.Phil or PhD as qualification of a teacher. In exceptional circumstances, post graduates with very good experience can be taken. Of course, exceptions are granted quite commonly for colleges in rural areas. However, you wont find it happening frequently in Tier 1, or tier 2 institutes.

HP #236

`` My posts were not about IT industry at all. It was just a reference point to education level. The point I was making and I will repeat again was that it is true that some top 5% in India go to top schools and get quality education but what about the 95% that can not make it to that level and stay with the 2nd, 3rd and even 4th tier education institutions. My thinking was that looking at the majority of the population, the education standards in both countries are about the same.
I was hoping that Indians would comment on how general school college and universities operate where majority of students get education rather than concentrating on the top five percent.``

I can speak for the Southern States. Anna University, Osmania, JNTU, REC - Tiruchy are pretty good colleges. My guess is that the elite Pakistani institutions would be at the same level as these colleges. They do not have the reputation of the IITs. Most of these insitutions are run by state governments. They are subject to caste based quota schemes for admission of students. 30-40% of the students are there because of their caste rather than the academic competence. That dilutes the academic caliber of the students. Otherwise these colleges have a good established record. There are plenty of successful alumni in USA.

taqat-e-parvaaz #234

`` sounds like another bhindian response to musharraf grabbing india by the balls! you`ve basically acknowledged that india is getting it up the rear diplomatically by pakistan. if you think manmohan singh and your thick politicians can outgun and out-strategize musharraf, you need to stop yourself from having wet dreams. mahathir muhammad too was a dictator, albeit one liked by his fellow countrymen. malaysia`s GDP is equal to india`s and its population is probably 1/10!! hail to the sacred cow!!``

What has Mushrarraf gotten ? He has avoided getting kicked in his head like Saddam. Pakistan is in the news for all the wrong reasons - Taliban, Al Qaida, nuclear proliferation, terrorism. Any economic benefits you get is outweighed by loss of credibility.

Imagine spending 5 years denying any material support to Taliban, kashmiri rebels and then being forced to issue a statement saying that you are cutting off material support. Imagine telling the world for a decade that you will never indulge in nuclear proliferation. Then being forced to admit. Even those admissions are half-truths. Do you really think AQ Khan was running his nuclear racket without knowledge of Pakistani Army. If it was really the case Pakistani Army must be the most incompetent organization in the world.

On mahathir mohammed Malaysia is where it is because of its enterprising 35% Chinese minority. Take them out. They will be a smaller version of Indonesia. The fellow is overrated. We will see how well Malaysia handles India and China economic onslaught.

HP

noone is comparing general indian education system vis-a-vis paki. the point is iits/iim brands have been created and have been acknowledged all over the world, and NUST/GIKI/UET are not brands, hoewver good the flush toilet in these schools may be.

this fact is highly evident, and you are not happy with it, and digressing, and calling arjun and aleph names out of frustration. and yes US$100,000 in IT with some experience is ordinary (good but no big deal).

so please get on with it and create some cool paki brands, no one is stopping you. after all, you know in your heart, that you are much better, that you can do things with fewer resources and in faster time.

if needed, be inspired by the chinese, thats ok too! but in the interim, there are some folks who are inspired by the indian thingy, and want to do well, whats wrong here?

re:#241 by saint
India was in the ``Nehruvian Socialism`` mindset for the first 40 years of its existence as a free nation. Nehru screwed up India`s economy as no one else did (whatever else his merits were, his economic policies sucked big time). So, it took a democratic India 10 more years than a communist China to figure out that a Free Market was a good concept!
China is 10 years ahead in reforms. It also pulls in the same direction due to a strong central leadership, unlike India which is being pulled in different directions but miraculously is surging ahead with a 6-% growth rate.
As i said already, there is no comparison with Pak. I am reminded of an editorial in New York Times some years ago tiltled ``The Elephant and the Pekinese dog`` comparing India and Pakistan. I do not have to tell u who the Pekinese dog was!
Sridhar

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#228 by taqat-e-parvaaz on December 16, 2004 4:15pm PT

[this is the typical bhindu response these days to pakistans prominence on the world stage, where president musharraf gets feted by leaders from around the world, and manmohan singh goes to russia with kneepads and mouthwash begging for nuclear reactor fuel and gets turned down!!]

Haha! Pakistan’s prominence? Gimme a break! So, lemme give you some of the reasons for Pakistan’s prominence (chuckle!).

* It is a terrorist haven where most of the Al Qaeda leadership has been apprehended.
* It midwifed the birth of the Taliban and senior Taliban leaders lead secure lives in Pakiland.
* It proliferated nuclear weapons technology in exchange for money and missile technology.

[spare everyone on this forum the charge of militant `rogue` pakistan. this is an old indian eyewash, and no one in the world falls for it anymore. and that pisses off every indian in the world.]

Either you are deluded, or a pathological liar. Just lookup Google and you will find scores of articles on Pakistan’s that aren’t really singing paeans on Pakistan’s “prominence” (I like the way you used the word).

[the truth is the indians have met their match in musharraf, and you guys are finding it difficult to digest the US and pakistans new cozy relationship.]

Yeah right, Mushy, the man who abandoned the bodies of Paki soldiers who ate grass and fought us in Kargil, is our match.

[bring me, oh intelligent one, incidents in pakistan of mass organized militancy against the state on the scale of gujrat, where thousands of people were displaced and murdered.]

I thought Bangladesh was a part of Pakistan before 1971.

[read arundhati roy more my friend.]

Now I know where you are coming from. Ms. Roy is the Indian version of the Urdu press in Pakistan, all fire and brimstone, but sadly lacking in any constructive criticism.

[dont worry about pakistan. its citizens know how to handle themselves. worry about the mess in your own house.]

Unlce Sam doesn’t think so. If he did, the FBI wouldn’t have set up offices in all major Paki cities.

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wow! written in an interesting manner and it has a clear conclusion.

bbabu and friend

My posts were not about IT industry at all. It was just a reference point to education level. The point I was making and I will repeat again was that it is true that some top 5% in India go to top schools and get quality education but what about the 95% that can not make it to that level and stay with the 2nd, 3rd and even 4th tier education institutions. My thinking was that looking at the majority of the population, the education standards in both countries are about the same.
I was hoping that Indians would comment on how general school college and universities operate where majority of students get education rather than concentrating on the top five percent.

“There are plenty of jobs for mechanical and chemical engineers. Civil engineering has always been dependent on govt money. The real question is whether the engineers in those disciplines want to be paid a fraction of their IT counterparts.” -bbabu

I think that gives a general picture of what goes on in India. It is quite obvious that people would go after the money. In Pakistan most of the Mech, elec and also civil engineers end up in governments jobs. In fact civil was a dying discipline some 10-15 years ago.

#226 by friend
friend, I was talking about six figures in US $.

I think that was the kind of information that I was looking for. I am not entirely familiar with the Indian education system and as I understand that most of the colleges and university would not accept teachers in faculty unless the candidate has a PhD. How true is that? Is this a requirement in some colleges/Univ or it is a requirement throughout the education system?
In Pakistan, people get hired to the faculty after the masters and some of those faculty members are not competent enough to maintain the quality of education. Some big educational institutions in Pakistan have suffered academically on this account. I am familiar with instances where some faculty members were sent to the US and UK for PhDs and could not get thru but they are still part of the faculties. Politics and connections have kept them there and that also brings the quality of education down.

saint-
i did not claim that pakistan is a country thats becoming a superpower. pakistan has its fair share of problems, but to think, as some people here (ahem ahem rsridhar) that india is the next dubai (hahaha) then they can wake up and smell the desai cola (yuck!). i give credit where credit is due. i am not some indian hater. india has performed well economically over the past several years, and its starting to get somewhere. but china is leagues ahead of india, and pakistan loves this dynamic factor. a pakistan under shaukat aziz can easily take giant strides in the economic disparity region. the IMF and WB have both forecasted pakistan to clock 8% annual growth rate by 2006. not bad for a country that is `terrorist-ridden`. how ignorant.
bbabu-
sounds like another bhindian response to musharraf grabbing india by the balls! you`ve basically acknowledged that india is getting it up the rear diplomatically by pakistan. if you think manmohan singh and your thick politicians can outgun and out-strategize musharraf, you need to stop yourself from having wet dreams. mahathir muhammad too was a dictator, albeit one liked by his fellow countrymen. malaysia`s GDP is equal to india`s and its population is probably 1/10!! hail to the sacred cow!!

#221 by arjun_m
“I`ve done more than my share of coding..and your share too. and really cool stuff at that...I`ve worked in places where when you went to take a leak, you`d have an armed guard standing behind you because you had a visitor badge....I`ve worked at coding in places where information about what is classified itself was classified...places I was only cleared to get into because my parents are dead and not alive and living in India...”

Ha! Ha! Joker!
So who is BSing here? H1 and top level security clearance? Let’s hear what level was that… better than General Myers I guess. Anybody who gets down to bragging is the first person Bsing. Or were you talking about swipe cards to building that cleaning people have access too?

You and Sewer-null both show that you only know about the fringes of IT industry. Sewer-null is speculating about managers. Only non managers speculate about how managers think. What you both dolts need to do is read Industry papers and find out why coder jobs are going to India.
Sewer-null would fellate a syphilitic donkey if doing so would get him a better life

HP #219

`` Indian engineering graduates barring IT, don’t get a job in the US on the strength Indian engineering degree alone and they have to either do a masters or a PhD to land a good job in the US. Pakistani Engineering graduates have to go thru the same process. I doubt that there is any Indian or Pakistan Engineer in the US who has landed a quality engineering job based on his/her educational strength in the native country alone. In the medical profession also if you are not board certified, no matter what your qualifications were in your native country, you are nobody in the US. Both Pakistani and Indian pass those board Exams and in the market place, it does not matter which Indian/Pak college you did your work in.
In the US market dropping an Indian college name has no significant value. ``

You need to define IT. What is defined as IT in India includes DSP, IC design, telecom software design etc. That is not the definition in USA.

`` I am fully aware that many IT professionals from India have degrees in many other core engineering disciplines. An IT job certainly lands them an H1 and saves them the hard work or the expenses in getting US education for jobs in their own discipline.
As I said in my earlier post, you will hardly find any American from a top school coding for living whereas, as you have said in your posts, many graduates from the Top Indian schools end up doing coding/IT work, which is not their primary discipline.
This also shows that Indian economy still does not have the strength to absorb all of its top notch graduates in their own disciplines. ``

There are plenty of jobs for mechanical and chemical engineers. Civil engineering has always been dependent on govt money. The real question is whether the engineers in those disciplines want to be paid a fraction of their IT counterparts.

taqat-e-parvaaz #228

`` how eloquent!! you must have attended harvard? this is the typical bhindu response these days to pakistans prominence on the world stage, where president musharraf gets feted by leaders from around the world, and manmohan singh goes to russia with kneepads and mouthwash begging for nuclear reactor fuel and gets turned down!! spare everyone on this forum the charge of militant `rogue` pakistan. this is an old indian eyewash, and no one in the world falls for it anymore. and that pisses off every indian in the world. the truth is the indians have met their match in musharraf, and you guys are finding it difficult to digest the US and pakistans new cozy relationship. ``

Pakistani regime including Musharraf are rogues. No amount of patting from Bush Jr changes that. If you think musharraf can lead Pakistan to the promised land that is fine.

`` meanwhile, the worlds largest democracy still lives with an ancient caste system, and crazy old hindu priests burn christian monastaries, kill dalits and adivasis, butcher and rape muslim women. bring me, oh intelligent one, incidents in pakistan of mass organized militancy against the state on the scale of gujrat, where thousands of people were displaced and murdered. extremism in pakistan is hardly the issue that sectarianism is in india, so quit this `all is fine` in the worlds biggest democracy. the secular democracy where UN resolutions are flaunted, and minorities fear for their lives. read arundhati roy more my friend. dont worry about pakistan. its citizens know how to handle themselves. worry about the mess in your own house.``

you need credibility to talk about others. you have none :-(

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HP#219,
It appears that you didn`t read all stats quoted by various people.. Atleast not my post..

(1) 6 figure salaries are quite common for Indian IT guys. In fact they had become too common. Now some rationalization is happening (which is good). For last 2-3 years many people intentionally avoiding asking 6 figure salary.. fearing that ths makes them a target for next job-cut.
(2) Coding is not bad. In fact, usual complaint by seasoned IT guys was that people become manager too soon in Indian IT industry- before learning the basic concepts. If you see people doing coding, it is good. They are learning the basics.
(3) only 10% of seats in an engineering college are for pure computer science. High demand in IT industry sucks additional 30%. Boat-loads of non-IT Indian students come to USA. However their number pales when compared to IT Indians.
(4) In first tier engineering colleges, you can count 7 IIT, 1 IISc, BITS & BHU-IT. they are very closely followed by dozens of RECs (Trichy, Madras, Vellore, Alahabad, Bhopal, Jadavpur, DITs... a long list) All of these colleges produce tons of non-comp science graduates.
(5) There are atleast few more dozen (perhaps ~50-70) large, established, but not so famous engineering schools, with lesser resources.
(6) and there are 100s of smaller recognized institutes.

Same is the case with Medical sciences and pure science education...


(BTW, If everyone becomes manager at 28, VP at 35 and president at 40, what will that person do when he is 50.. there was only 100 Fortune 100 firms.. !)

#222 by AlephNull on December 16, 2004 7:20am PT
``The idea that ‘coding’ is a ‘low-level’ activity fit only for lowly-paid underlings, is a notion that has done tremendous harm to the software/computer field and to its most gifted people. ``

i think a lot of folks in the US, including some noted free-market economist are waking up to this in relation to outsourcing.

how eloquent!! you must have attended harvard? this is the typical bhindu response these days to pakistans prominence on the world stage, where president musharraf gets feted by leaders from around the world, and manmohan singh goes to russia with kneepads and mouthwash begging for nuclear reactor fuel and gets turned down!! spare everyone on this forum the charge of militant `rogue` pakistan. this is an old indian eyewash, and no one in the world falls for it anymore. and that pisses off every indian in the world. the truth is the indians have met their match in musharraf, and you guys are finding it difficult to digest the US and pakistans new cozy relationship. meanwhile, the worlds largest democracy still lives with an ancient caste system, and crazy old hindu priests burn christian monastaries, kill dalits and adivasis, butcher and rape muslim women. bring me, oh intelligent one, incidents in pakistan of mass organized militancy against the state on the scale of gujrat, where thousands of people were displaced and murdered. extremism in pakistan is hardly the issue that sectarianism is in india, so quit this `all is fine` in the worlds biggest democracy. the secular democracy where UN resolutions are flaunted, and minorities fear for their lives. read arundhati roy more my friend. dont worry about pakistan. its citizens know how to handle themselves. worry about the mess in your own house.

re: This equal-equal stuff
``But we are still talking about top five percent of both Indian and Pakistani schools that end up getting top education. There is a whole bunch of people in both countries that never make it to those top colleges and that are about 95% of the graduates in any given year.``
Above is an eg of the kind of stuff i am hearing lately from Pakis, on this board or elsewhere. Suddenly, the region where they live is not Pakistan but ``South Asia``. Suddenly, Pakis want to be seen with Indians, be it Art, Cinema, Fashion or Education.
This only exasperates me. Indians would want to think they are competing with China not with a ``terrorist infested`` godforsaken country run by a dictator.
While i agree that much remains to be done in both countries, it is what is being done that shows the stark contrast between the 2 countries. Like the article pasted in #220 (from Outlook). My dad who visited me recently says education is the new mantra in India and there is more than 60% literacy. In Pak, America`s attempt at Madrassa reforms has failed miserably. HP thinks Pakis have a ``killer instinct``. The only killer instinct the world has seen is the one on the killing fields by a jehadi. We do not see such killer instincts by Pakis either in Sports or anywhere else.
I think Indians (including NRIs) should desist from comparing India and Pak all the time. It is time to move on.
Sridhar

How correct??
As some one said aptly, ``The best piece of code you can write is the one you do not write!``

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heh heh.. HP is getting rankeled and resorting to calling arjun names

i am somewhat familiar with the way successful tech startups work in the us (no not the .com types but real ones ).

these places tend to be chalk-full of aged low-level programmers from very good institutes like mit, stanford and iits, with high degrees. they are not some stinky bearded hot-shot hackers, workign 48 hours a day, but folks who have honed the fine art of computer programming, and actually have read books by Knuth (most IT folks sadly dont even know his name). these folks get compensated really well in salary, lifestyle and options and are serial startup workers. they also are serial startup-workers (i.e. leave after the first product life-cycle).

HP if you go to these places, these folks will be very amused to hear your perspective on lowly programming, but they will listen to you anyways.

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arjun_m #218

The idea that ‘coding’ is a ‘low-level’ activity fit only for lowly-paid underlings, is a notion that has done tremendous harm to the software/computer field and to its most gifted people. This notion is the hallmark of clueless MBA-style managers without any technical background; of engineers trained in other disciplines who try to import inappropriate models or methods from other fields to the activity of writing software; and of the least competent programmers who want to escape to the ranks of management and lord it over their betters. The best-known and most distinguished computer scentists never display this attitude and have written and often extensively published beautiful code of exceptional quality.

When you see a person repeatedly display that attitude with no trace of irony or embarrassment, you can be fairly certain that you’ve run into someone with no real understanding of what writing software entails. It is quite possible for someone to have that attitude even after having himself written a fair amount of mediocre software, or having watched it being done at close quarters. Some people just don’t get it and never will. This is an epidemic disease from which I hope the world will someday recover – but at the moment I only see the ranks of the clueless increasing.

jang #208

{{pakis have this can-do killer instinct, and get things by short-cut. indoos are kind of grunt geeks ;-) stupidly studying fundamentals for too long etc.}}

There are activities in which you little chance of finding the ‘shortcut’ – won’t discover the most elegant and efficient way to do things – unless you have a very solid grasp of the fundamentals. Writing software is as good an example of this as any I know. You just can’t fake it with opportunism and ‘killer instinct’ alone. Ultimately it’s the people with a grasp of the fundas who keep the world running and save it from disaster.

Jang, bbabu, friend, ankit, amit,

Thanks for your posts.
I had said that from the very outset that I am not disputing the quality of some Indian institutions. It takes a long time to develop educational institutions and India certainly had a huge edge over Pakistan in that area. I know some of the institutes started after the independence but core of the faculty already had a solid background in many disciplines from quality univs. and that helped new institutions.

In the US, as you all are well aware, not all schools excel in every discipline. The ranking also moves up and down depending on the strength of the faculty. In terms of monetary value of the products from Ivy League and other schools, we know what the starting salaries are in the marketplace. From Wharton to Kellogg and from MIT to Harvard all have certain areas they excel in and graduates get top $$ in those specific disciplines.

Indian engineering graduates barring IT, don’t get a job in the US on the strength Indian engineering degree alone and they have to either do a masters or a PhD to land a good job in the US. Pakistani Engineering graduates have to go thru the same process. I doubt that there is any Indian or Pakistan Engineer in the US who has landed a quality engineering job based on his/her educational strength in the native country alone. In the medical profession also if you are not board certified, no matter what your qualifications were in your native country, you are nobody in the US. Both Pakistani and Indian pass those board Exams and in the market place, it does not matter which Indian/Pak college you did your work in.
In the US market dropping an Indian college name has no significant value.

I am fully aware that many IT professionals from India have degrees in many other core engineering disciplines. An IT job certainly lands them an H1 and saves them the hard work or the expenses in getting US education for jobs in their own discipline.
As I said in my earlier post, you will hardly find any American from a top school coding for living whereas, as you have said in your posts, many graduates from the Top Indian schools end up doing coding/IT work, which is not their primary discipline.
This also shows that Indian economy still does not have the strength to absorb all of its top notch graduates in their own disciplines.

But we are still talking about top five percent of both Indian and Pakistani schools that end up getting top education. There is a whole bunch of people in both countries that never make it to those top colleges and that are about 95% of the graduates in any given year. I think if one were to measure a country’s educational strength, numbers that matter are the ones nobody is talking about here.

HP # 206
“But the real comparison comes in the second and third tier schools, colleges and universities in both countries. There is a whole under class that goes thru those colleges and I just don’t see any difference in the core 95% of education in India and Pakistan.”

What is the quality of education in average govt or private schools in India? Their graduates way outnumber any premium school graduate and become the owners of the economy in due course of time.

Arjun,
I am disappointed that you are only an IT recruiter. How on earth would you know what IT professionals do when all you do is live off a few crumbs out of their pockets by stealing and lying to your own countrymen?
Please see Jang’s post to enhance your extremely low knowledge about the IT industry.
Btw, who does the grunt work in an IT development project and who is at the lowest level in any project? I guess you wouldn’t know the answers as you are busy stealing from the poor folks doing the grunt work.

On how education is valued even in the smaller towns, and in villages, in India




http://www.outlookindia.com/mad.asp?fodname=20041220&fname=Making&sid=1


Sunday Trek To The Golden Gate


He gives up his weekends to help his kindred folk: the vast scientific talent pool of mofussil India
Every Sunday, while the world rests, some 40 students from various parts of Tamil Nadu assemble at the department of nuclear physics in Madras University. They diligently sit through the day-long lecture by S. V.M. Satyanarayana. These students, pursuing or having completed an MSc in Physics in mofussil colleges, have one goal: to clear the national-level tests conducted by the Council of Scientific and Industrial Research (CSIR).

Student response says it best. One travels six hours one way from his village to make it. Another says, ``The first day, I thought I’d fall asleep. But it was here that I really woke up.``

This will entitle them to junior research fellowships sponsored by the ugc and enable them to pursue research.
Satyanarayana himself has been down the path. He says it is his passion for teaching that keeps him going and his own background feeds the passion. The son of a compounder of a village primary health care centre


in Guntur, Andhra Pradesh, he studied in Telugu medium till Class xii. But But he strove hard to complete MSc at the Regional College of Education, Mysore. Clearing GATE in ’94, he enrolled for a PhD at the Indira Gandhi Centre for Atomic Research (IGCAR), Kalpakkam. Today, he is the scientific officer at IGCAR.
Satyanarayana has always wanted to help students like him. He feels those from underprivileged non-metropolitan backgrounds should be provided a platform to pursue careers in research. Hence, while doing his PhD, he began devoting weekends to students. He would gather eight to ten students and coach them for the CSIR entrance. Finally, Madras University’s nuclear physics department agreed to spare him a lecture room.

But Satyanarayana is not too happy with his efforts. The CSIR exam is conducted twice a year (in July and December). The fellowships are few and Tamil Nadu’s share in the national pool in physics averages a measly five per exam. Of these, at least two are from Satyanarayana’s course. ``The success quotient should increase. At least six students from my course should clear CSIR every time.``

However, Satyanarayana’s course is a legend. For many, the rigorous Sunday sessions conducted free of cost is their only hope to attempt CSIR, GATE and other entrance tests that will open the doors of elite institutes.

Most of the students travel long distances. ``In the present batch, a student called Sundaramurthy comes from a village close to Polur near Vellore. He starts at 4 am to reach here by 10 am. He gets back home by midnight. I once visited his village to get an idea of the distances he covers.`` Till 2001, the class was a three-hour affair. But to accommodate students coming from remote areas he extended it till 5 pm.

Many of Satyanarayana’s students have entered the portals of major institutes such as IISC, TIFR, ISRO, BARC, various IITs; some have moved to universities in Europe and the US. Since 1997, 38 of his students have carved out careers in research. O. Annalakshmi, scientific officer at IGCAR, is one such example. Annalakshmi is from Ammandivilai village near Nagercoil. Neither of her parents is a graduate. She studied till Class XII in Tamil medium. ``During my MSc at Nagercoil, people laughed if I mentioned research. Then I heard about Satya’s course—and I attended it in 1999.``

Adds P. Venkatesan, now pursuing a PhD in Materials Research Centre at IISC, Bangalore: ``I’m from Serkadu village near Katpadi. My senior R. Rajnith told me about Satya’s course. The first Sunday I attended the class in 2002, I thought I would fall asleep after my heavy hostel breakfast. But it was there that I first woke up.`` Satyanarayana’s take on why he dedicates every Sunday to this cause: ``Many go to temples on Sundays. I come here.``

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HP

out of a batch of 380 odd students from my batch, 37 were from computer science... mechanical had 48 and chemical had 35 odd...

most compsc graduates were lapped up by the big names like microsoft, sun, cisco etc... so the IT companies ended up taking those from mechanical/chemical etc..

most graduate from compsc, electronics and electrical work in great companies and in their core areas...u might know that companies like GE and Texas Instruments have set up labs in Bangalore....labs which are engaged in cutting edge R&D.

same is not true about mechanical, chemical kind of branches... the top few( say 7-8) ended up in excellent US schools....a few were employed in nice companies like HLL and rest went to IT....

I dont know about Pakistani engineers first hand......you can also have a debate on what is the criterion for declaring the institution as great. IITs have benefitted by what can be callled a virtuous cycle. It is regarded as a great institute, so the best students try to get there. That gives them an excellent human resource base and so on.

Bottomline : If you look at the almuni of IITs, you will know why this hype is there.

By the way, first IIT was founded in 1951, the latest in 1990s( Guwahati). History does not a great institution make, human resources do.

Re:HP#206

The problem with this continuous benchmarking against India is that you (Pakistanis) are spending way too much time trying to find weaknesses in India and its institutions, rather than identifying the strengths and learning from it. Every society has stengths and weaknesses, and God knows, India has its weaknesses. We are a third world country that has barely come out of 1000 years of imperial rule with deep poverty and a heterogenous society that boggles imagination. Yet we have managed to pull ourselves by the bootstraps, create democracy, institute secularism (not perfect), create a vibrant market economy, reduced poverty levels and created a reservoir of highly educated professionals who are powering our economic growth. You can either spend all day identifying our weaknesses or you can recognize what we have achieved.

If you do have to compare with someone, you should actually compare Pakistan to other islamic countries like Iran and Turkey because your social system is similar to theirs. You have one religion (97%), one dominant language spoken by almost everyone and a relatively homogeneous population.

Escapist #197,

Nationalism engenders division - bad.
Islam engenders division - good.

Hence Bengalis should`ve chosen Islam over Bengali-ness. Very compelling argument,
I must say.

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HP

I always though pakis have this can-do killer instinct, and get things by short-cut. indoos are kind of grunt geeks ;-) stupidly studying fundamentals for too long etc.

Re. reserves, thats not important. FDI is.

actually IT is only a small % of the new workforce in india. most graduates are emplyed in other engg like chemical (e.g reliance petro), mechanical (e.g. several auto and auto ancilaries), pharma (cipla the muslim) large hospital chains (apollo, woekhart .. onother muslim), finance, horticulture, construction etc. also IITs and other colleges have very large non-IT departments like meterial sciences.

also, regarding 6 figure being a ceiling i think you are way off but i am no expert on this (ask arjun, he is places people).

i have an interesting anecdote how the indian industry is coping with the chinese. my neighbor was some kind of chemical engg and was buming since his bussiness place was going under due to chinese manufacturing. last i talked, he says things a great, now what they do is help the chinese install and commission plants and then do product marketing (figuring out what to make based on talking to customers) etc. they are much cheaper than a western outfit which the chinese used, and a better at reaching indian customer base (which is significant in any case). nothing to do with IT, but availabily of IT pool helps in their bussiness as well.

today, do this. go to a VC, you will have to tell him a story of how you will get work done in india. this is not low-level grunt stuff but stuff like chip-design, networking protocols. its very hectic right now, and for well experienced folks salaries are hitting upwards of 50% of US salaries. (some are demanding more since working in hot, polluted india, you deserve a hazard pay ... heh heh )

i remember seeing a very nice paki outfit before sept 11 headed by the AST computer dude doing some good work. Alas, after 9/11, he and his gang were knoking on doors with a nice american flag on their lapels. you could overlook their beards but a bussiness prop of 40 engg in lahore was to tough so they folded soon. they should have shifted to bangalore instead.

so pakis can do it, and inshallah, even better. and that is the whole point, india is an inspiration, no?

HP #206

`` In 1947, India already had some established institutions that had almost a hundred years history of excellence behind them. Whereas Pakistan started with I think one or two universities that were not in any contention of educational excellence before partition. With that background in mind, I think Some of Pakistani institutions have done real well. ``

If India had established instituitons in 1947 I doubt they had anything in the way of educational excellence. Maybe excellent by third world standards !!! They were adequate. For a country as large as India they were too few and far to make a huge difference.

`` I would be interested in finding out how many Indians from these institute actually graduate in core engineering such as Mechanical, Electrical, civil or chemical engineering.
Then we have to look at some high-class institutions in the Medical field also.``

I do not know what the criteria for comparison would be.

`` For comparison sake, I would say that Pakistan in core Engineering discipline competes well with Indians and that is evident in the numbers of Pakistani engineers that match well with Indian engineers in the US marketplace. In the medical technology area, the situation is almost identical. Pakistani doctors in the US do as well as the Indians.``

USA has stopped the immigration of doctors (or made it hard) for 25 years. Most of the Indian doctors coming in are folks who marry permanent residents, H-1s or US citizens. That does not make for a good comparison. A better comparison would be amount of money Gulf Arabs spend on medical treatment in India and Pakistan. A lot of Gulf Arabs fly to Mumbai, Delhi and Chennai for expensive medical procedures. Any reason why they should not be going to Lahore or Islamabad ???

`` IT, IMO, is still not a core engineering technology. That is evident from the marketplace at least in the USA. Most of the Indians are in reality entry-level position of coding no matter what institute they got their degrees from. The difference between core engg and IT is evident in the Salary structure. There aren’t very many coders that break the six figures barrier. And it is true for both Indians and other locals. In terms of education one rarely sees an American with degree from top institute and toiling as a coder. Whereas in the core technology group engineers start breaking the six figure barrier with only a few years of experience under their belt. Comparison in IT is not fair either as this technology did not catch on in Pakistan as it did in India.``

Look at the upper management with stock options of the top 100 American companies in the technology arena (telecom equip, networking, semiconductors, semiconductor equipment, computer hardware, software, tech services, instrumentation). You can do it in Yahoo Finance. You will find Indians outnumber Pakistanis 25:1 or 50:1. Feel free to draw your inferences.

`` In terms of IT’s contribution to Indian foreign Exchange, It is actually not a whole lot. $10 billion is still not the top contribution. The higher percentage still comes from the NRIs and that means that despite years of development India has still not gone beyond the benefits of human trade.``

IT enabled services and IT has led to bulk of the $100 billion inflows in the 1990s.

`` Indian foreign exchange reserves are higher because of the 911 and the US cracking down n Hawala. (Btw, Hawala actually started in India). In the last three years both Indian and Pakistan FE reserves have gone up because now NRI and expat Pakistanis are forced to send remittance thru the legal means rather than the Hawala.
There is ratio of 1:20 in terms of Indian and Pakistanis outside of both countries and that difference shows up in foreign exchange reserves where Pakistani reserves are approx $13 billions and Indians about $125 Billion.``

Indians do not outnumber Pakistanis 20 to 1 in the following major expatriate markets - Canada, USA, UK, Australia, UAE, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Qatar. In fact Pakistanis are represented more on a per captia basis in all those markets minus USA. They might outnumber Pakistanis 20 to 1 in Singapore, Malaysia. But those countries are culturally and geographically closer to India and plus they have large ethnic Indian minorities.

re:#199 by GuruJee
Let us see again. You said that you knew a guy who failed in LUMS but received top honors in one of the top American universities. How does that make LUMS better than IIT?
Looks like u have no logic.
Sridhar

re:#206 by HP
``In the medical technology area, the situation is almost identical. Pakistani doctors in the US do as well as the Indians.``
At least i can speak with authority on this subject, being a doctor myself. I have met many Pakis during Residency in USA. One of my best friends was a Pakistani from Karachi. He told me that there is nothing equivalent to an MD in Pakistan. In other words, if i were to believe him, Pak offers only MBBS degree and perhaps a diploma in most colleges and Universities (here i will exclude some reputed places like Agha Khan). My friend and some other Pakis in the program were good but not as good as some Indians who already had an MD under their belts and were on a fast track to finsih the residency.

In India, there are some very well known medical centers/universities offering post-graduate courses as well as Fellowships (or their equivalent designations).
One good measure of how good medical colleges are in either country would be to look at the number of papers being submitted to international journals. My guess is the number is much larger in India.
Sridhar

197 by escapist

``All thanks and Praises are due to Allah (swt) who gave human beings the gift of reason and a discerning mind.

And hold fast, all together, by the rope which Allah (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves; and remember with gratitude Allah`s favour on you; for ye were enemies and He joined your hearts in love, so that by His Grace, ye became brethren; and ye were on the brink of the pit of Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus doth Allah make His Signs clear to you: That ye may be guided. (TMQ Surah Ali-Imran 103)``

A very important verse of the Quran-e-Hakeem indeed. This is one of the few verses of the Quran which bring out the true civilising, humanistic and, excuse me to say, secularistic nature of its message. Who are the addressees here of the favour of Allah; niether `mushrikeen` nor `momimeen` or the Muslims but only the Arabs. Don`t be surprised. Allah had saved their Kahbah before advent of Mohammadan Islam even when hundreds of idols were being worshiped there from Ibrah, a non-Arab Christian Islamist by sending `ababeels`- vide Suratulfeel(the Elephant).

So what the reason and the descerning mind finds from the said verses is that Allah may help the mushrakeen and the kafirs alike but not the sectarian hypocrites (munafiqeen) as the so called Muslims, by and large, are.

HP #206
As far as I know Punjab engineering college (was it at Lahore?) was supposed to be a good college at the time of partition? Atleast one part of it moved to India. Not sure if there was any left in Pakistan from that college.
But you are correct that many engineering colleges in India were already well established.

As far as your interest in ``finding out how many Indians from these institute actually graduate in core engineering such as Mechanical, Electrical, civil or chemical engineering. ``

Each of the IITs typically has an entry level batch of about 400-500. Out of this 35-40 are for pure computer science. Rest are distributed over other core fields. It is a different matter that IT related industries absorb about 30-40% of the final output. A significant percentage of graduates enters management courses and another significant percentage does enter technical fields.

As far as most of the Indians being in entry level position of coding - most of the IT engineers came to US within last few years. There is nothing bad in doing coding for few years. Coding is not just typing but also learning algorthms, constraints and business processes.
A very significant percentage of IT Indians is now in technical management. 6 figure salaries are not rare (in fact quire common). I can guess atleast 100 in my immediate circle. Junior/new arrivals do not get 6 figure but they are really not expected to.

And you seem to have wrong idea about six figure salaries in non-IT engineering careers.
A civil engineer has to really acquire a hard-to-get professional certification in US. But salaries are really not comparable to IT graduates. Same is true for Mechanical engineers. (Not that is justified.. )...

This is only FYI - with no intention of starting a mudfest

#201 kaalchakra
”This IIT/IIM - Pakistani educational institutions debate is totally unproductive. Even if it were ever resolved, it won`t prove much.”

On the contrary, I think these are productive debates if the purpose is not to prove that Indians are some kind of a superior race.

There is no doubt that some Indian institutions are high class and their products are hopefully top notch too. Pakistan has lots of catching up to do in this area but if you look at the lag time India had in developing its educational institutions, Pakistan has not done poorly at all.
In 1947, India already had some established institutions that had almost a hundred years history of excellence behind them. Whereas Pakistan started with I think one or two universities that were not in any contention of educational excellence before partition. With that background in mind, I think Some of Pakistani institutions have done real well.
IMO, there are several aspects of quality education just not a few institutions. Top of the line Indian educational institutions produce about 2 to 5 % of total graduate in India. Out of that a good number in IT discipline leave the country and end up doing low paying jobs like writing code.
I would be interested in finding out how many Indians from these institute actually graduate in core engineering such as Mechanical, Electrical, civil or chemical engineering.
Then we have to look at some high-class institutions in the Medical field also.
For comparison sake, I would say that Pakistan in core Engineering discipline competes well with Indians and that is evident in the numbers of Pakistani engineers that match well with Indian engineers in the US marketplace. In the medical technology area, the situation is almost identical. Pakistani doctors in the US do as well as the Indians.

But the real comparison comes in the second and third tier schools, colleges and universities in both countries. There is a whole under class that goes thru those colleges and I just don’t see any difference in the core 95% of education in India and Pakistan.

IT, IMO, is still not a core engineering technology. That is evident from the marketplace at least in the USA.
Most of the Indians are in reality entry-level position of coding no matter what institute they got their degrees from. The difference between core engg and IT is evident in the Salary structure.
There aren’t very many coders that break the six figures barrier. And it is true for both Indians and other locals. In terms of education one rarely sees an American with degree from top institute and toiling as a coder.
Whereas in the core technology group engineers start breaking the six figure barrier with only a few years of experience under their belt.
Comparison in IT is not fair either as this technology did not catch on in Pakistan as it did in India.

In terms of IT’s contribution to Indian foreign Exchange, It is actually not a whole lot. $10 billion is still not the top contribution. The higher percentage still comes from the NRIs and that means that despite years of development India has still not gone beyond the benefits of human trade.
Indian foreign exchange reserves are higher because of the 911 and the US cracking down n Hawala. (Btw, Hawala actually started in India). In the last three years both Indian and Pakistan FE reserves have gone up because now NRI and expat Pakistanis are forced to send remittance thru the legal means rather than the Hawala.
There is ratio of 1:20 in terms of Indian and Pakistanis outside of both countries and that difference shows up in foreign exchange reserves where Pakistani reserves are approx $13 billions and Indians about $125 Billion.

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#196 by takat...

if pakistan suffers from so called `militancy` as someone so wisely claimed, then india suffers from communal strife.

`militancy`??? What a soft labelling on hardcore barbarism....

India has multitude of communities and the only communal strife is with Muslims. Same holds true for the world over, ask me for examples. Why is it like that???

the system was complicit
Rather the system was self-reactionary. When islamic maniacs shamelessly attack the system, then mullah taqat goes to sleep, and when there is a rebuke he feels the pinch.

hip hip hurray for `secular` india!

Hurray indeed. At least India has claim over secularism, pakis don`t have even that!

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rsridhar: I can only say that you are more dumber than I thought. By any chance did you study in