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A Case for Banning Polygamy

Ayesha I Khan December 3, 2003

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#159 Posted by hamidm2 on December 9, 2003 1:19:03 pm
tahmed,

.......... as much as you would like to, you cannot seperate message from the messenger - koran from hadith .......... it is a silly attempt at obfuscation ...... and even if you could there is enough stuff in the koran to make the message suspect ...........let`s not get into the sordid details that have been debated over and over again ..........

........... but given a choce between your brand of islam and the classical version pushed by anew and naqshbandi, i would prefer yours .......... if it ever becomes widely accepted it would be a welcome first step towards putting religion where it belongs - in the dustbin of history...........
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#158 Posted by tahmed32 on December 9, 2003 11:52:16 am
hamidm #156 i am not surprised that you would - like anew and naqshbandi - accept hadith as part of islam. in fact i already said as much in my previous post: namely, that the difference between you and me is that you are quite happy to cede islam to the maulvi version (and thus be able to ridicule islam) whereas i prefer to take on stand on what my common sense tells me (namely that hadith is the weapon the mullah has used to usurp for himself an authority that is denied in the Quran even to the prophet himself (namely that he is but a warner, and implementation is not his concern - and the maulvi uses the hadith to try and control every single move a muslim makes).

thus i am not surprised that you reject what i accept what anew writes - since what anew writes you can ridicule later, while what i write you cannot. falsehood, like politics, makes strange bedfellows.

as for me being superstitious, i challenge you to find one sentence i have ever written on chowk (not just in my last post) that can be called superstitious. as for may making a ``convenient interpretation`` of the Quran - if you really believed that, you wouldnt have to join the mullahs by adding hadith to the Quran, thus being able to tar both with the same brush.
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#157 Posted by ZahraJ on December 9, 2003 11:34:56 am
I agree with the poster in post # 148.

Nazar`s concern is indeed a major concern for the well being of the mankind.

Surprisingly, no one else has raised this crucial point on Chowk before...Just wondering...
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#156 Posted by hamidm2 on December 9, 2003 10:26:47 am
tahmed,

............ i would like to buy your explanation because it would make things a lot easier, but i do find anew`s and naqshbandi`s arguments more compelling since they look at everything, include hadith, wihout relying on a narrow and convenient interpretation of the koran............ to be honest, if i was inclined to be superstitious i too would take your approach because it would ease my conscience and prevent me from making a complete fool out of myself ............
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#155 Posted by tahmed32 on December 9, 2003 10:08:37 am
hamidm #142: you asked me to explain why it is OK in the koran to beat women. let me say right away that if I honestly felt that the koran gives me license to beat my wife, rest assured i would not have anything good to say about the koran.

what assures me of the above is that the MOST IMPORTANT thing emphasized in the koran is INDIVIDUAL RESPONSIBILITY for distinguishing between good and evil, right and wrong, truth and falsehood. This is the essence of the message of the Quran as i have understood it after carefully examing it. everything else is details.

and it is this very INDIVIDUAL RESPONSIBILITY that the islamists seek to usurp by finding a hadith for every situation. and that is why they live a life of falsehood and hypocrisy. This is how the islamists have hijacked islam. nor is this hijacking an academic matter. today they have hijacked islam, tomorrow they seek to hijack pakistan. even today, vast sections of the pakistan population are virtual slaves to the bidding of the maulvi. it is time we stopped treating them like idiots to be politely called ``maulana sahib`` and laughed at behind their backs, but the single biggest threat to civilized society in pakistan today.

you have chosen to cede islam to the maulvi, and are only too glad to accept his word on what is islam. i have chosen to trust my own eyes and common sense, and have chosen to stand my ground against this onslaught on religion by the mullah. that is the difference between you and me.

coming back to the Quran, you may disagree with my conclusions, and that is fine with me. i will agree with you though that one shouldnt start changing the meaning of words (``beat meant kiss``), since that is simply dishonesty. but i will disagree when you say that it is a lame excuse to say ``but elsewhere it says``: when one provides a book review, one looks at the entire book. one looks at the basic thrust of the message. a religious book is not a scientific theory book where a single flaw in logic negates the results. it is a book written by ordinary men in ancient times based on what one of them related to them he was told by God. you may or may not accept the veracity of the individual who was chosen as the messenger, but that does not mean that you can pass judgement on the Quran (or any other book for that matter) based on a single verse (or set of verses).
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#154 Posted by Shobuz on December 9, 2003 8:52:58 am
Anew: A discussion regarding your post (no mean to disrespect or attack!)

You used the ayat “follow” prophet. Will believing Islam and Quran is enough to satisfy the meaning of this ayat?

You make all references (out side Quran) halal by using these few ayat of Quran. Who decides which one is authentic or not. Who is Abu Bukhari. When did he born, died, Was he a historian or an alem. Can I find any where in Quran about Abu Bukhari or men like him or Mr. Hanafi, Hambali, Shafai. How many Mazhab existed during prophets time. When ‘Allah’ is one short name, how come some of the Ulema’s name are so big, and are encouraged not to call them with short name.

The discrepancy & falsehood of sources outside Quran is not new. It was always there. When Allah says in Quran “which HADITHS you upheld BESIDE Quran”, these sources says “Quran & Prophet’s Hadiths” & not “Quran ALONE”. Reasons are obvious. It is impossible to make up issues using Quran, hence the invention of using historic saying as desired. It is like internet pop-ups, anything goes. Some of these sources equates refusing their sources as disrespecting or not obeying prophet, a fear put in one’s heart via literally making prophet some sort of super human being. In many Islamic gathering I have counted to see how many times they used short word of “Quran” and “Allah” along with long word of “Prophet” and “Sunnah”. I have amazed. Like I said everything goes in the name of “Prophet & Sunnah”. On Shia side “Ali” is the key word.

When “Quran” and “Allah” alone is mentioned they all gets upset, as if it is not good enough, hence need to mention other sources, or shall I say, need to share FAITH with other sources along with “Quran” and “Allah”.

Prophet’s name has mentioned in Quran in various ways, he will remain an integral part of our understanding of Islam because of that; me mentioning or not mentioning him SHOULD NOT bore FEAR in our mind, because faith belongs to Allah ALONE who has no sharer. This also doesn`t equate that I have no interest in historical or traditional knowledge of Islam where prudence is practiced with rational and reasons.
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#153 Posted by anew on December 9, 2003 7:42:45 am
#142 by hamidm2 on December 8, 2003 8:06pm PT
tahmed,

............ once and for all, will you explain why the koran says it is okay to beat women (whatever the circumstances) .......... and please do it without offering any lame excuses like, ``but elsewhere it says ``, or ``beat meant kiss in old arabic``................... since it is the word of god, and is supposed to be good for all times, we expect him to be clear, concise and precise.........is that wrong?............stop defending the indefensible - it makes you look silly - not a whole lot different than the poor jamatiya who you are always accusing of shirk and worse ..............



In islam, the man has no right to physically harm his wife. While some `scholars` negate this by quoting from the following verse of Quran that a man is allowed to beat his wife. One needs to read Quran with the help of Prophet`s explanation and practice to truly understand the meaning of Arabic verses. Never Prophet or his companions beat their wives. I have quite different translation of Arabic word ``Daraba`` (see in the next post) which many translators have translated as ``beating``. (even as a last resort before the divorce and that also a light beating with the purpose of admonishing and not physically hurting her)


A. Yusuf Ali Quran

TranslationSurah An-Nisaa Ruku 6 Surah 4


34 Men are the protectors and maintainers of women because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient and guard in (the husband`s) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct admonish them (first) (next) refuse to share their beds (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience seek not against them means (of annoyance): for Allah is Most High Great (above you all). See notes 546 547


Notes:

546 Or the sentence may be rendered: ``and protect (the husband`s interests) in his absence, as Allah has protected them.`` If we take the rendering as in the text, the meaning is: the good wife is obedient and harmonious in her husband`s presence, and in his absence guards his reputation and property and her own virtue, as ordained by Allah. If we take the rendering as in the note, we reach the same result in a different way: the good wife, in her husband`s absence, remembering how Allah has given her a sheltered position, does everything to justify that position by guarding her own virtue and his reputation and property. (4.34)

547 In case of family jars four steps are mentioned, to be taken in that order: (1) perhaps verbal advice or admonition may be sufficient; (2) if not, sex relations may be suspended; (3) if this is not sufficient, some slight physical correction may be administered: but Imam Shafii considers this inadvisable, though permissible, and all authorities are unanimous in deprecating any sort of cruelty, even of the nagging kind, as mentioned in the next clause; (4) if all this fails, a family council is recommended in iv. 35 below. (4.34)

35 If ye fear a breach between them twain appoint (two) arbiters one from his family and the other from hers; if they wish for peace Allah will cause their reconciliation: for Allah hath full knowledge and is acquainted with all things. See note 549

549 An excellent plan for settling family disputes, without too much publicity or mud-throwing, or resort to the chicaneries of the law. The Latin countries recognise this plan in their legal systems. It is a pity that Muslims do not resort to it universally, as they should. The arbiters from each family would know the idiosyncrasies of both parties, and would be able, with Allah`s help to effect a real reconciliation. (4.35)

To understand the true purport of this verse, it is essential to keep in mind verse 21 of al-Rum.

``Another of His signs is that He created out of you mates of your own kind so that you may find repose in them, and has instilled (ordained) love and kindness between you. Verily there are signs in this for those who reflect.``

In many verses it has been ordained to, treat women with kindness and to speak to them gently.

The Holy Prophet said:

``The best of you is he who is kind to his wife.``



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#152 Posted by wajahat on December 9, 2003 7:42:43 am
This Article should be renamed, The Liberal and the Jamattiya, one preaching , the other screeching. On a serious note, I know for a fact that Mr Tahmed is able to come with factual discourse(when he wants to), but in this case his temper is getting the better of him.

I cannot comment further on this as I am not a Quranic Scholar and what I will say will not mean anything to each of us anyways. In some matters personal choices should be respected. We all have our ways and none of us are here to be converted. The least we could do is to allow the other a space.

My Question to anew, What is your view about the progression in Islam in respect to women, You do understand that half of Pakistan`s population is made to sit home and thus a large section of our society, its talents, its productivity are left to rot in domesticated environments. When in the times of War the condition was sent that Muslims are to marry upto four wives to provide for the widows of the sahaba who got shadat in the battle. Then should we not take these times to allow that room for our partners, our sisters , our mothers to helps us in these times of need. Pakistan is a ship that needs all hands on deck right now, dont you think its time that the religious scholars accept this change and allow women the room to develop themselves economically, careerwise and as people. Or will their outdated fears disallow this reform?
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#151 Posted by hamidm2 on December 9, 2003 7:42:43 am
anew,

.........this is a serious question:............ what is your opinion on sports because some of them require men and women to dress ``indecently``?....... you are not suggesting that you can run a marathon, swim, play hockey or get up parallel bars wearing an abaya or shalwar kameez ? .......are you?....... i am sure you can, but i doubt if you can really compete............. are you suggesting that muslims should stop participating in the olympics and hold their own ``islamic`` games?........
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#150 Posted by anew on December 9, 2003 7:42:42 am
Prof. Ahmed Ali, the author of Twilight in Delhi has translated the earlier mentioned Verse 4.34 in his English translation of Qurán - Al-Qurán as following:

Men are the guardians of women as God has favoured some with more than others, and because they spend of their wealth (to provide for them). So women who are virtuous are obedient to God and guard the hidden as God has guarded it. As for women you feel are unyielding, talk to them suasively; then leave them alone in bed (without molesting them) and have intercourse with them (when they are willing).* If they open out to you, do not seek an excuse for blaming them. Surely God is sublime and majestic.

*Raghib in his Al-Mufridat fi Gharib al_Qur’an points out that daraba metaphorically means to have intercourse, and quotes the expression darab al-falal an-naqah, ‘the stud camel covered the she-camel’ which is also quoted by Lisan al-‘Arab. It cannot be taken here to mean ‘to strike them(women)’. This view is strengthened by the Prophet’s authentic hadiths: 1) “Could any of you beat your wife and then lie with her in the evening?” 2) “Never beat God’s handmaidens”

This gives me a hint that what West recently coined the idea of Marital Rape was addressed by Quran 14 centuries ago and even suggested a poetic and romantic way to overcome this situation.
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#149 Posted by anew on December 9, 2003 7:42:42 am
#148

nazar hayat khan sahib

Are you some way related to Imran Khan? He also had the similar ``complains``.

Islam requires modesty from both men and women. Only one stray look is permissible but that one look should not last for more than few seconds.
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#148 Posted by nazarhayatkhan on December 9, 2003 1:02:33 am

anew # 147

(Additionally, hijab rules aim at protecting them from the gaze of other men)

There seems to be a lot of emphasis on preventing women from the gaze of men.

Why is it that men are not protected from the gaze of other women?
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#147 Posted by anew on December 8, 2003 10:46:01 pm

There is a unique value of haya in Islam. Prophet Muhammad, Sall-Allahu alayhi wa sallam, said: ``Every religion has a distinct call. For Islam it is haya.`` [Ibn Majah]. Moreover, haya is a centerpiece of most of the actions that Iman calls for. It is the basic building block of Islamic morality. When it is lost everything is lost.

Based on such teachings, Islam brought about a moral revolution of unprecedented dimensions with haya as its cornerstone. The pre-Islamic Jahilya society of Arabia knew the word but did not understand its meaning. Nudity, the antithesis of haya, was not only common in every day life, it was even part of the most important religious ritual of tawaf (circumbulation of Ka`bah). So were all the other evils that flow from it. Islam exterminated all of those evils and changed the society in such a way that haya became one of its most cherished values.

Islam`s laws about hijab, its ban against free mixing of men and women, its teachings about gender-relations - all of these reflect a deep concern for haya.

For men and women who have not lost their haya, these come naturally. There is a moving story from the earlier Islamic period about a woman who learnt that her young son had been lost in a battle. She ran in a panic to confirm the news, but before that she took time to make sure that she covered herself fully in accordance with the newly revealed laws of hijab. She was asked how did she manage to do that in a time of great personal tragedy. She replied: ``I have lost my son, but I did not lose my haya.``

And for centuries afterwards Muslim societies did not lose their haya.When Muslim lands came under the western colonial rule about three centuries ago, they were faced with a civilization that was no different than the pre-Islamic Jahilya on the issue of haya. While it did not have better morality, it did have better guns. At the gunpoint of military and political domination, Muslim societies were made to loose their grip on haya on the collective scale. The powerful and attractive media became an important instrument in this war. First it was books, magazines and newspapers. Then radio. Now it is television. Together they projected ideas and images detrimental to haya. They made indecency attractive. The pace was increased tremendously by television, which has shown more firepower than all the previous media combined.

When historians write about the moral decline in Muslim societies in the twentieth century, they will probably underscore television in subverting the moral fabric of society.

We can get out of the morass by making haya as our number one concern in both individual as well as public lives. There is no Islamic life without Islamic morality. There is no Islamic morality without haya.

(Extracted from No Haya, No Life By Khalid Baig)


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#146 Posted by anew on December 8, 2003 10:46:01 pm
For those who have doubts about the autenticity on Hadiths (Prophet`s sayings/actions);

A Hadith can be categorized with regards to its authenticity into 5 types, 1) Sahih (authentic), 2) Hasan (sound), 3) Dha`eef (weak), 4) Dha`eef Jiddan (very weak), and 5) Mawdhoo (fabricated).

The first 2 types can be used as proofs for the different laws in Shari`ah. The third can be used (with a few conditions attached) to establish virtues for any specific deed or person. (This is accepted by the vast majority of the Muhadditheen).

There are three conditions for the permissibility of practicing upon a weak Hadith; a) It must not be very weak, b) It must be regarding something that has already been established to be a part of Deen, c) One should not have total conviction in its authenticity. The Ulama have stated that Istihbaab (preference) can be established from a weak Hadith. (al-Ajwibatul Fadhilah), and if one practices upon it, it is hoped that he will receive the reward mentioned therein.

No. 5 (fabrications) cannot be used for anything besides for the purpose of explaining to somebody it`s classification. It cannot be quoted in any lecture, book, etc. with the intention of inspiring people through its contents. Rasulullah said, `He who lies (about a speech) of mine should prepare his abode in the fire.` (Bukhari)

Hence, the Ulama have deduced that it is haram (forbidden) for one to quote any fabricated Hadith without explicitly mentioning its fabrication. As for number 4 (very weak, which is also referred to by the words, `very unreliable`), because of it being so weak, the Ulama have joined it to Mawdhoo (fabricated) Ahaadith. So, they share the same law as mentioned above. (For further reference, see Sharh Nukhbatul Firk of Hafiz ibn Hajar; Tadreeburraawiy of Hafiz Suyyooti and; Al-Ajwibatul Fadhilah of Maulana Abdul Hai Lucknawi)

The reason for some Ahadith being weak, some strong and some being classified as fabrications is due to the variation in the credibility of the narrators in each chain. The task of checking and verifying the status of each narrator of every Hadith one quotes is quite difficult. Only those that are equipped with the intricacies of the science of `Jarh wal Ta`deel` are eligible to do so. Others that know the Arabic language and have a brief understanding of Usool-ul-Hadith (principles of Hadith) are able to read and check how the Ulama of classical times have graded any particular Hadith, thereby relying on their classification of the status of a Hadith.

This is practically impossible for anyone who does not posses any of the above knowledge of science of `Jarh wal Ta`deel` or the Arabic language together with a brief understanding of Usool-ul-Hadith (sciences of Hadith). Hence, the layman as well as others, should first be cautious in whatever they attribute to Rasulullah as was the practice of many of the Sahaba, Radi-Allahu anhum, namely, Abdullah ibn Mas`ood, Radi-Allahu anhu, Anas ibn Maalik, Radi-Allahu anhu, and others. The Sahaba, Radi-Allahu anhum, used to turn pale when narrating Ahadith from Rasulullah for the fear of erring and effectively attributing something to Rasulullah which he did not mention. But, alas! Nowadays, we quote Hadith upon Hadith without this thought ever crossing our minds that possibly we have attributed one word to Rasulullah which he did not say!

As for the authentic books of ahadith, the list will never stop. However, some of these authentic books may contain ahadith whose reliability may vary from authentic to weak and so on. Hence, we will enlist those books regarding which the Ulama have stated that all or majority of their Ahadith are reliable and authentic and not undermined the other numerous authentic books of Ahadith.

Those books whose Ahaadith are all authentic: Sahih Bukhari, Adabul Mufrad (by Imaam Bukhari), Sahih Muslim, Muwatta Imaam Maalik, Sahih ibn Khuzaymah, Sahih ibn Hibbaan, al-Muntaqa by Imaam Jaaruwd, al-Mukhtaarah by Imaam Dhiyaa-ud-Deen Maqdisiy, Riyaadhul-saaliheen by Imaam Nawawiy, Fourty Ahaadith by Imaam Nawawiy, Hisn Haseen by Imaam Jazary, Part1 of Mishkaat al-Masaabeeh. Allah Ta`ala Knows Best
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#145 Posted by anew on December 8, 2003 10:46:01 pm
For those who want to understand the Islamic dress code and its justification and importance;

Most of the scientific establishment is still dominated by the followers of Mr. Darwin and Darwinism is a system of belief not science. Their beliefs keep them from dealing honestly with a simple fact: while all other animals have a skin that provides them protection against the elements, human beings don`t. Monkeys can live without clothing, human beings cannot.

The Qur`an answers the question. Our bodies did not develop our skin - so thin and fur free that it requires external covering for protection - because of some unexplained evolutionary accident. Our Creator designed it this way so we will always need clothing. He also put in us the sense of shame that forces us to cover ourselves. On the other hand, the first act of Satan was to cause Adam and Eve to expose themselves: ``So by deceit he brought about their fall: when they tasted of the tree, their shameful parts became manifest to them, and they began to sew together the leaves of the Garden over their bodies.`` [Al-A`raf 7:22]. This is the source of the tension we see. Two opposing forces. Good and evil.

With that background we can understand the importance of clothing. ``Oh Children of Adam! We have bestowed raiment upon you to cover your shame as well as to be an adornment to you. But the raiment of righteousness - that is the best.`` [Al-A`raf 7:26]. The address here is to all humanity, emphasizing thereby the universal human need to cover ourselves properly. The Qur`an then warns that Satan was not finished after his first attempt: ``Oh Children of Adam! Let not Satan seduce you in the same manner as he got your parents out of the Garden, stripping them of their raiment, to expose their shame.`` [Al-A`raf 7:27].

Once we realize the nature of the dress issue, it is natural that we should turn to our Creator to seek guidance for the proper dress code. Qur`an and Sunnah have provided ample guidance on the subject which can be summarized in four essential principles.

Our dress must cover our body adequately. Again we cannot determine what is adequate coverage on our own, as any witness to the misery of those who have tried it can readily ascertain. Shar`iah, as always, takes us out of this misery by defining it for us. For men, it is the middle part of the body from navel to knee. For women, it is the entire body except hands and face. These parts must never be exposed to any other person (except in case of genuine need e.g. medical treatment). In addition, the cloth must be neither see-through nor tight fitting.

Our dress should provide adornment. It should provide for decent appearance. Our appearance should not be an eyesore for decent human beings. For men, this extends the coverage requirements to include most of the body. For women, the essential requirement is that their dress should identify them as respectable ladies who would be honored not harassed. Additionally, hijab rules aim at protecting them from the gaze of other men.
Our dress should establish our Islamic identity. At the least it should not identify us as followers of another religion. But, additionally it should positively identify us as Muslims.
The design of our dress must avoid three deadly sins: show off, arrogance, and self indulgence. These are very serious diseases of the heart in their own right that we must avoid at all times. Our garments provide an easy opportunity to nurture them. Hence the need to be extra cautious. One Hadith states ``Eat what you feel like and wear what you feel like. But avoid two things: extravagance and arrogance.`` [Bukhari]. At the risk of stating the obvious one should be reminded that this Hadith establishes an overriding concern that limits our choices within the realm of what is considered halal. It does not do away with the distinction between halal and haram.

As one implication of this general requirement, men are also required not to wear their lower garments below the ankle. (Many well-meaning Muslims today have been persuaded that this is a petty issue. This misgiving can be put to rest in a hurry if we just refer to the Hadith of Jabir bin Sulaym, Radi-Allahu anhu, in Abu Dawood. He asked the Prophet, Sall-Allahu alayhi wa sallam for some advice when leaving him after his very first meeting. Of the six pieces of advice given him one was: ``Never let your lower garment go below the ankles because that is arrogance. And Allah does not like arrogance.`` Another was ``Never belittle a good deed.``)

Islam has not prescribed a particular dress style, giving us ample room to accommodate our needs, circumstances and tastes. However, these principles are for everyone and forever. Any garment that accommodates these principles will be Islamic dress. This is Islamic formula to dress for success. Eternal success.
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#144 Posted by anew on December 8, 2003 10:12:11 pm

I will not comment on someone who becomes naked while arguing on some point and start using words as scoundrel and rascal for one who has difference of opinion.

fuzair- The women are advised in Islam to look like women and not copy men in appearance. There could be certian dresses which both can wear. A sweater, coat or shalwar kameez be few of those. But in my opinion they can wear any thing as long as it is covered and her body parts are not prominent. Islam stresses a different identity for Muslim men and women. This could be in appearance and all norms of the culture. It does not recommend wearing tight jeans, nickers, skirts or sleeveless shirts for women copying non-Muslims. The reason they are stopped from copying non-Muslims is that they have no sense of what is allowed by Quran and Sunnah. I hope it is clear to you now.

There was another gentleman questioning the Islam`s strict dress code for women and hiding of their adornement on the basis that this may close the fashion and cosmetic industry. It may not. She can still wear designer`s clothes and do her best make-up but just for pleasing her husband and not the public. I can`t recommend liquor for someone or start gambling so bars and casions can stay in business. Islam is a preventive medicine and make sure that all causes which develop a cancerous society are never born. It does not believe in a logic that if their is no disease then what will happen with pharmaceutical industry. That is why a Doçtor who migrated to Medina came to Prophet after six months complaining that he is not getting any patients.

Nobody should get mad on me for telling what Islam really wants. If someone thinks that he can`t practice Islam, he has all the liberty but he should refrain from proving it wrong. Islam has clear instruction to stop Usury(interest) but people try to make it `allowable` for not stopping it for apparent gain.

As the poet said``: khud badalte nahen Quran ko badal detey hein

If anyone contends with the Apostle even after guidance has been plainly conveyed to him and follows a path other than that becoming to men of faith We shall leave him in the path he has chosen and land him in Hell--what an evil refuge! (17.115)
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