Karo Kari

Re Anew 133-135

Every time I read the verbose nonsense spewed by you, I am reminded why Mustafa Kemal was often referred to as the greatest Muslim of the twentieth century. Unlucky us, he died before he could cure South Asia of the disease that he cured Turkey of.

Dear All,

I think this board has turned it self into a theological gutter. I feel as if I am in the dark ages with all those zealot creeps trying publish their slogans for the net ummah. I think this is no place for guys like me. bye.........

Arjun_m # 124

No one denying the destructive role of the Army in pumping religion & anti-India stance in our polity. Zia to keep his seat got the Islamization going. Musharraf, again, to keep his seat, is getting MMA to a respectable position.

But one has to undestand the issue with a clarity. In a population of 140 million, getting 100,000 Jihadis is not a big deal. But these are people who make the news & let the nation`s respect sink with them.

Just to support the basic thrust of my post - in the last elections:

PPP got 60% of polled votes. It is a secular + pro-India Party.

Sind, Pashtoon & Baluchi nationalist parties got additional secular votes.

MMA got only 10% of the polled votes but their vote did not split because 6 parties had joined - and they got many more MNAs & MPAs elected than expected.

As for funding, the religious groups have been asking for funds for charitable causes. Some funds have also been coming through the Arab citizens. But now the people are quite vary of the religious sounding charitable organizations.

(Collecting money on charitable grounds in Pakistan is not difficult - Edhi has a budget of crores of rupees all through donations. He is a genuine guy)

Before that Mahdi will rule, by the Will of ALLAH.

Realities about Imam Mahdi

Compiled by QHA Rabbani

Hadhrat Huzaifah bin Al-Yaman (Radhi Allaho anho) reported that the Holy Prophet (Sall Allaho alaihe wasallam) said, ``Prophethood (meaning himself) will remain with you for as long as Allah wills it to remain, then Allah will raise it up wherever he wills to raise it up. Afterwards, there will be a caliphate that follows the guidance of prophethood remaining with you for as long as Allah wills it to remain. Then, He will raise it up whenever He wills to raise it up. Afterwards, there will be a reign of violently oppressive [The reign of Muslim kings who are partially unjust] rule and it will remain with you for as long as Allah wills it to remain. Then, there will be a reign of tyrannical rule and it will remain for as long as Allah wills it to remain. Then, Allah will raise it up whenever He wills to raise it up. Then, there will be a caliphate that follows the guidance of prophethood.`` Then Hudhaifah said, ``The Holy Prophet stopped speaking.`` [As-Silsilah As-Sahihah, vol 1, no 5]

All those who are gifted with sound comprehension know that the Mahdi who some of the non-Muslim sects are waiting for, does not and did not exist. The Muslim nation has faced numerous hardships and calamities because of the mystical beliefs that has been carried and propagated by those sects (like the Mahdwiya sect) regarding this Mahdi.

In their belief, believing in him to be a person having the qualities that only Allah possess, is a cornerstone of faith. However, such mythology is similar to Greek mythology, as well as the beliefs of the other nations of Al-Jahiliyyah.

The Muslims believe that Hadhrat Mahdi (Alaihir Ridhwan) will be an ordinary man, born to an ordinary woman, raised by ordinary man and living an ordinary life with the people of his time. He will not live in some hidden places where people would be unable to see him.

In reality, Hadhrat Mahdi (Alaihir Ridhwan) will be an Imam and a Caliph, among other Caliphs who rule Muslims with justice. However, the major difference between Hadhrat Mahdi (Alaihir Ridhwan) and other Caliphs is that he will meet Jesus son of Mary (Alaihis salaam), which would raise him to the status of a Companion of Jesus.

Also, Jesus, the Prophet of Allah, will pray behind Hadhrat Mahdi (Alaihir Ridhwan). Allah will give Hadhrat Mahdi (Alaihir Ridhwan) the ability to righteously rule the Muslim nation for two years.

He will fill the earth with justice, as it was filled with injustice before him. He will lead the Muslim nation to the second conquering of Constantinople and possibly Rome.

His caliphate would be the one that follows the guidance of the Holy Prophet (Sall Allaho alaihe wasallam). Prophet Muhammad (Sall Allaho alaihe wasallam) mentioned that just before the end of this world, the Muslim nation would be ruled by a Caliphate that will follow the guidance sent with the Holy Prophet (Sall Allaho alaihe wasallam), as quoted above by the Companion of the Holy Prophet (Sall Allaho alaihe wasallam), Hadhrat Hudhaifah bin Al-Yaman (Radhi Allaho anho):

``Prophethood (meaning himself) will remain with you for as long as Allah wills it to remain, then Allah will raise it up wherever he wills to raise it up. Afterwards, there will be a Caliphate that follows the guidance of Prophethood, remaining with you for as long as Allah wills it to remain.

Then, He will raise it up whenever He wills to raise it up. Afterwards, there will be a reign of violently oppressive [The reign of Muslim kings who are partially unjust] rule and it will remain with you for as long as Allah wills it to remain.

Then, there will be a reign of tyrannical rule and it will remain for as long as Allah wills it to remain. Then, Allah will raise it up whenever He wills to raise it up. Then, there will be a Caliphate that follows the guidance of Prophethood.``

The reason behind mentioning this Hadith here is to state that Hadhrat Mahdi (Alaihir Ridhwan) will live in the last period of rightly guided Caliphs that the Messenger of Allah (Sall Allaho alaihe wasallam) mentioned himself.

In this Hadith, the Messenger of Allah (Sall Allaho alaihe wasallam) divided the history of the Muslim nation into the following stages:

1. The reign of Prophet Muhammad (Sall Allaho alaihe wasallam)

2. A Caliphate that rules according to the guidance revealed to the Messenger of Allah (Sall Allaho alaihe wasallam). This period is called the reign of the rightly guided Caliphs, starting with Hadhrat Abu Bakr (Radhi Allaho anho), then Hadhrat Umar (Radhi Allaho anho), then Hadhrat Usman (Radhi Allaho anho), and ending with the assassination of Hadhrat Ali (Radhi Allaho anho), may Allah be pleased with them all.

Some scholars have included the short reign of Hadhrat Hasan bin Ali (Radhi Allaho anho), the grandson of the Messenger of Allah (Sall Allaho alaihe wasallam), with the above persons` rule.

These are the thirty years, which the Messenger of Allah (Sall Allaho alaihe wasallam) stated comprising the reign of the rightly guided Caliphs [The Prophet (Sall Allaho alaihe wasallam) said? ``The Caliphate will remain in my nation after me for thirty years. Then, it will be a monarchy after that.``] (Ahmad, Tirmizi and others, Sahih Al-Jami As-Saghir no 3341)

3. The reign of unjust rule. This reign contains some injustice to a varying degree between one king and another. This period include the reign of the Umayyad, Abbasid, Mamluks and until the fall of the Ottoman Empire in the twentieth century.

This period includes all states that ruled in the Muslim World during those centuries. However, we exclude the reign of those rulers whose rule was similar to the rule of the rightly guided Caliphs, such as the reign of Hadhrat Abdullah bin Zubair (Radhi Allaho anho) and Hadhrat Umar bin Abdul Aziz (Rahmatullah alaihe). These two are considered among the just Caliphs from among the tribe of Quraish who ruled the Muslim nation.

4. The reign of the tyrannical rule. This period started in the end of the Ottoman Empire and continues. We ask Allah that He may save us from the evils of this period and that we witness its end soon.

This reign includes all the regimes that ruled the Muslim World, whether imperial, party oriented, governments controlled by the disbelievers, like those after World War I, populist or republic, which all sought to deprive Allah from His right as the Only Legislator in all matters of life and religion.

When the Messenger of Allah (Sall Allaho alaihe wasallam) mentioned the periods that this nation will experience, he categorised them according to the type of government, whether unjust, or that which follows the guidance of the Holy Prophet, or autocratic and tyrannical, as we experience today.

5. The return of a Caliphate that rules following the guidance of the Holy Prophet (Sall Allaho alaihe wasallam). This period requires the Muslims to be prepared and strive for its imminent coming, by spreading the knowledge of the Book and the Sunnah and the way of our righteous ancestors.

This is because nothing can resurrect this nation except that which resurrected its ancestors. Until this final period comes, the religion will become a stranger, the same way it started in Makkah, a stranger to its masters and slaves, the powerful and the weak, its women, and its children.

Those who will strive to establish this righteous period are those whom the Messenger of Allah (Sall Allaho alaihe wasallam) has referred, who will carry this religion with knowledge, sound comprehension and determination.

They will willingly sacrifice their well-being, face hardships, and persecution, with patience and steadfastness. They will follow the advice of the Messenger of Allah (Sall Allaho alaihe wasallam) when he said:

``Therefore, hold fast to my Sunnah and the Sunnah of the rightly guided Caliphs, hold it between your front teeth! And beware of innovations (in the religion), for every innovation is a bid`at, and every bid`at is a deviation, and every deviation is in the Fire.`` [Sahih Al-Jami As-Saghir, no 2549]

They will be the ones who, by the will of Allah, will correct that which people have altered and changed of the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allah (Sall Allaho alaihe wasallam) after his departure from this earthly life.

They will fight in the sake of Allah and dominate those who oppose them. They will be unrelenting even in the face of those who abandon or defy them, until Allah brings about His Decree (the Hour), while they are steadfast on this path.

We ask Allah, the Praised and Ever-High One, that He may grant us steadfastness on the path of His Messenger (Sall Allaho alaihe wasallam) and the path taken by His Companions and those who followed them lead until the Day of Judgment.

#128 by tahmed32 on December 14, 2003 6:41pm PT

You may have any smart views of your own. But the fact is Prophet Muhammad was not just a preacher like Prophet Isa. He did establish a Islamic State. If the verses I quoted don`t let you be convinced that an Islamic state is required to establish a state machinery to enforce Islamic laws, fine with me. I have to just present my opinion and you can always differ.

The transfer of Khilafah from Muhammad to Abu Bakr to Umar to Usman was smooth. You must know the part played by a jew-convert Abdullah Saba in revolt against Caliph Usman and plantation of Shia sect in Islam.

Whatever the causes and effects to downgrade Muslims, the losers are both Muslims and the rest of mankind. They are being deprived to benefit from the Message of Quran - the word of our Creator. The Jews were cursed by ALLAH for killing the prophets and not following the Message and their Role of leading the mankind with the word of God was Transferred to followers of Prophet Muhammad. Since then Jews are doing conspiracies to hurt Muslims and stop the Message to spread. We Muslims are supporting them and making their job easy by ignoring the Book and confusing the world by splitting ourselves into Jihadi Muslim and moderate Muslim. For West and rest of the world both are not acceptable and trustworthy. The one is jahil and ignorant whereas the `modern` muslim is a hypocrite who wants to steal the Duniya and Jannah by painting himself moderate. He eats forbidden Interest but still call himself an enlightened Muslim.

But all these debates are for here but we should all prepare our selves for the day when we will be presented to God and HE will decide our fate not based on our Logics but Belief and Actions.

Jesus will rule

The descent of Jesus son of Mary,

as portrayed in the Qur`aan



By Shaykh Abdul Aziz Al-Humaydi

The Holy Qur`aan makes three references to the return of Jesus son of Mary (Alaihis Salaam) to the earth -- ie his descent from the sky -- in order to accomplish various tasks. The first reference is in Surah Nisaa`, verses 156-159. As for the context of these verses, Allah, the Exalted, mentions the fabrications of the Jews, their slander of Mary, their rejection of Faith, and claim that they killed Jesus son of Mary -- the Messenger of Allah (Alaihis Salaam). Thereupon Allah, the Exalted, declares the falsity of these claims and says, ``And because of their saying (boasting), `We killed Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah,` -- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but it was made to appear to them so.`` [An-Nisaa` 4:157]

We know about the disciple who resembled Jesus and voluntarily sacrificed and ransomed himself, as has been specifically stated by the leading scholars of Islam. So what exactly happened then? Allah, the Exalted, raised Jesus son of Mary to the sky. His enemies, the Jews, failed to harm him, let alone kill and crucify him.

This is a clear and unambiguous text that carries no room for another interpretation. It states clearly that Allah, the Exalted, raised Jesus to Himself -- bodily and his soul -- in order to save him from the Jews murdering and crucifying him. Allah, the Exalted, says in the Holy Qur`aan, ``But Allah raised him up (with his body and soul) unto Himself; and Allah is Ever All-Powerful, All-Wise.`` [An-Nisaa` 4:158]

So, if anyone claims that only the soul was raised, it would be incorrect, as is shown from the two following perspectives. Firstly, Allah made a mention of this raise in the context of refutation of the claim of the Jews that they killed the Christ. So, if it were that only the soul was raised, then that would actually mean an acknowledgment of the claim of the Jews that they killed the Christ -- which is to remove his soul!

Secondly, if it were true that only his soul was raised, there would remain no distinction for Jesus above the rest. For all Prophets (Alaihimus Salaam), and, in fact, all believing Muslims, have their souls raised to the sky upon their death. So, does there remain anything that distinguishes Jesus, for which Allah makes a special marked mention in the Holy Qur`aan that He raised him?

After establishing this point, another Qur`aanic verse follows in the same context of the ones that preceded. This one clearly bears evidence on another return of the Christ (Alaihis Salaam) to the earth and that he will descend from the sky. The purpose of this is the crucial role he will play upon his return to the earth.

Allah, the Exalted, says, ``And there is none of the People of the Scripture (the Jews and Christians) but must believe in him (Jesus son of Mary as a Messenger of Allah and a human being) before his death. And on the Day of Resurrection, he will be a witness against them.`` [An-Nisaa` 4:159]

The verse presents the message in a future tense, so it is with regards to the events to come after the raising of the Christ. It informs that some of the People of the Book will believe in Christ. But when will that be? It will be upon his descent, his return and coming onto the earth once again.

Imam Tabari, the renowned scholar of the Qur`aanic exegesis (Rahmatullah Alaihe), explained this. He said, ``The meaning of the verse `And there is none of the People of the Scripture but must believe in him`, that is: in Jesus, `before his death`, that is: before the death of Jesus. It is explained as follows: that all of them will affirm and acknowledge him when he descends to kill the Antichrist, thereafter, all the religion will give way to only the one, which is the pure upright religion of Islam -- the religion of Abraham (Alaihis Salaam).`` [See Tafsir At-Tabari 4:356-357]

The second reference in the Noble Qur`aan to the imperative nature of the descent of Jesus Christ, the son of Mary, in order to complete the task that must be done on the earth, is found in Surah Zukhruf in the Holy Qur`aan.

Allah, the Exalted, says in it, ``And when the son of Mary is quoted as an example (ie Jesus worshipped like their idols), behold, your people cry aloud (laugh out at the example). And say: Are our gods better or is he (i.e. Jesus)? They quoted not the above example except for argument. Nay! But they are a quarrelsome people. He (ie Jesus) was not more than a slave. We granted Our Favour to him, and We made him an example for the Children of Israel (ie his creation without a father). And if it were Our Will, We would have (destroyed you all, and) made angels to replace you on the earth. And he (ie Jesus) shall be a known sign for (the coming of) the Hour (ie Day of Resurrection). Therefore, have no doubt concerning it. And follow Me (ie Allah)! This is the Straight Path.`` [Az-Zukhruf 43:57-61]

In another recitation, it is recited as ``And he shall be a mark``. It means, a symbol, a portent, and a sign of the Hour. [See Fath-ul-Qadeer of Shawkaani, (4/562) for references of those who read it so.]

How can Jesus son of Mary be a sign of the Hour (Doomsday)? It cannot be except with his descent being in the last stage and period. His descent would then be a great sign and one of the major portents of the Hour -- a sign that announces the closeness of its occurrence. This is how the verse has commonly been explained by the scholars of Tafsir (exegesis of the Holy Qur`aan). Amongst them are Mujahid, Suddee, Qatada, Hasan al-Basri, Dhahhaak and Ibn-e-Zaid.

It is also the saying of Hadhrat Abdullah bin Abbas (Radhi Allaho anho). They all have stated this explicitly, that Jesus son of Mary is one of the signs of the Hour in the sense that he will descend and rule the earth and dwell therein for forty years, as is mentioned in the authentic Hadith, that will be mentioned shortly. And his descent will be one of the great signs of Allah and one of the supreme portents of the Hour.

The third reference to it in the Holy Qur`aan: The deduction from this text is indeed remarkable. One notes that there is hardly ever a mention of the story of Jesus (in the Holy Qur`aan) except that it is mentioned along with it that, ``He will speak to the people in the cradle and in manhood.`` [Aal-e-Imraan 3: 46, and Al-Maa`ida 5:110].

In this, Allah mentioned two remarkable and rare events, that are also two dazzling signs (proofs) of Allah found in the character of Jesus Christ. The first matter is that he spoke in the cradle while still an infant. This does not occur except as a miracle from Allah, the Mighty, and the Magnificent. That is why it has never occurred except with three people as has been established in the authentic Hadith narrated by Hadhrat Abu Hurairah (Radhi Allaho anho). [See Sahih Bukhari 4/201-202].

So, the speaking of Jesus (Alaihis Salaam) in the cradle was indeed a sign, and there was a need, and the circumstance called for it as the mother of Jesus came to be held in suspicion due to the birth, `How can a woman give birth without a husband?` They even voiced this explicitly, as reported in the Holy Qur`aan, ``Your father was not a man who used to commit adultery, nor your mother was an unchaste woman.`` [Maryam 19:28]

So, a miracle was required to prove her innocence and to prove that the birth was another such a miracle. Thus, the infant spoke in the cradle, an extraordinary, unaccustomed event. But the verse couples this miraculous event, with the mention of another event -- of him speaking as a middle-aged adult. But everyone speaks at that age. So, where is the miracle in that?

The Arabic word used in the verse that refers to that stage of his life, is `Kuhoolat`, which is used for a person past the age of forty and up to the age of fifty or sixty years. Is it at all remarkable that one speaks at the age of sixty or even seventy? So, where is the miracle that is alluded to in this section of the verse, which mentions that Jesus speaks as a middle-aged man?

This shows that just as his speech in the cradle as an infant was a miracle, likewise he will descend and speak to the people as a middle-aged man in the last stages of this world, making his descent and speech thereupon, also a miracle. Otherwise, there is no miracle in a sixty or seventy year old communicating by speech!

So, the evidence from this section of the verse in the Holy Qur`aan that he will speak to the people as a middle-aged adult is from the following two perspectives. Firstly, some of the scholars of Islam, amongst them is Ibn-e-Musayyab, stated that Jesus son of Mary was raised to the sky, while he was at an age of thirty three years, in the prime of his youth (referred to in Arabic as `Shabaab`, which is a stage prior to the one mentioned in the Holy Qur`aan, Kuhoolat). So he had not yet reached the stage of `Kuhoolat`.

Secondly, here comes the aspect of amazement, marvel and the miracle. The aspect, which bears evidence on the point, is that he speaks to the people as a middle-aged man (in Kuhoolat) after having been raised, and his being raised is indeed an astonishing event. And he will descend, and his descent is also another astonishing, remarkable event. He will then speak to the people and will live after his descent for forty years. This makes him someone who would have reached the age of Kuhoolat, and having spoken at that age. He will then have spoken to the people as he spoke to them in the cradle.

This is a clear and unambiguous indication that Jesus -- Hadhrat Isa (Alaihis Salaam) -- will certainly complete his role and his part, and will descend towards the last stages and speak to the people as a middle-aged man, just as he spoke miraculously as an infant.

Imam Tabari related from Abdur Rahman bin Zaid that he said, `Jesus did indeed speak to them in the cradle, and he will speak to them when he kills the Antichrist, he will then be a `Kahl` (a middle-aged man).`` [Tafsir Tabari 3/271]

//..1 billion muslims dont wake up planning new ways to attack cvilization...//

Well - I don`t know about 1 billion muslims, but if I remember correctly - there was this survey in Pakistan where a great majority(something like 70% may be) said Osama is a hero. This included ivy league college students. And they did NOT belivee Osama attacked WTC - it was the Jews or something...

So this may mean - a lot of people donot dont wake up planning new ways to attack cvilization - but they do support people who do wake up planning new ways to attack cvilization. Or Not!!

hamid
//...now who does the ummah turn to ?...how come a spider did not spin a web across the entrance of the hole saddam was hiding in - does this prove that he was a bad man and allah subhanwutallah wanted him to be caught ??//

Osama is still out there - so Ummah hasn`t lost nothing ... not yet. Osama is the real hero - Hero No.1. Osama hit right in the heart of the great satan. He is the chosen one.

Of course allah subhanwutallah wanted Saddam to be caught - what are you smoking!! Saddam was not a true muslim. He was secular, for most part. Sure, he tried hard to come back to the true faith, towards end of his career - built huge mosques all over the place, but it was too late. Allah was fed up by then.

As long as Osama is out there - ummah will do OK.

Now the question for us non-believers is - how come Osama is managing to evade the satan for so long? I mean - Praise Allahs - His grace is unlimited for Osama. But hey - the satan is no push over either. He has all kinds of tricks and magic mirros and eye-in-the-sky stuff. Allah can only do so much, right?

So who is protecting Osama?

hamidm2 #126/earlier posts: I must sadly correct you again (between correcting you at one end and anew at the other, I am using up quality time that probably would be better spent with my kids):

First: I dont recall apologizing to anyone for the message of Islam. I dont apologize for crimes done in the name of Islam either - but, I put blame where it belongs, on the culprits (be they historic figures like mahmud ghazni, or modern day criminals like the terrorsts who attack innocent people. And I dont apologize for the hadith (which I have noted earlier is the tool of the mullah to arrogate for himself the power that is explicitly denied in the Quran to the holy prophet himself, and certainly not a part of the message of Islam). As I said earlier, 1 billion muslims dont wake up planning new ways to attack cvilization.

Second: You are wrong with your characterization of bremerism vs tahmedism: If by bremerism you refer to the US military action in Iraq, then recall that I wrote an article on chowk SUPPORTING the US military action- and this was BEFORE the war, and the reasons I provided for my support have proven correct with time (i.e. removal of a cruel dictator from power, a major milestone on which was reached today with his capture).

There is no conflict between my respect for the peaceful message of islam and my support to the US intervention in Iraq.

I dont know what you mean by tahmedism anyway: all I ask people to do is to stick to the facts and to use their common sense. Much as I would be honored to be proclaimed the founder of this radical idea of sticking to facts and using common sense, I am afraid that people have been practicing it for centuries in all societies. Although it does appear to be in short supply on chowk sometimes.

anew #120 I am glad you attempted an answer. And I see you did not cheat either. You get 10 points right there! Congratulations (ladoo wandow!!). Of course you are being graded on a scale of 100, so you I now need to check the rest of the answer sheet.

Question a. WHERE is there any reference to an Islamic State in the Quran?

Your Answer gets: MINUS 5 points. The correct answer was ``Nowhere in the Quran does it call for an Islamic State``. The points have been deducted for writing irrelevant things.

For your benefit, I have discussed a bit the irrelevant points you made, which you would be well advised to reflect upon: Is there anything in the simple question I had that even implies anything about the Pope, or christianity or anything else that you write about? Do any of the verses you quote call for an ``Islamic State`` in any shape or form? You drag a couple of verses out that call for obedience to the prophet, but you (a) ignore the many verses that explicitly call the prophet a ``warner only`` and that ``implementation is not his concern; (b) imply that mohammed was not the final messenger, and that any calls for obedience to the prophet do not transfer to any other man after his death (in other words, you are implying exactly the point on which you declared Ahmedis nonmuslims!!)
As for your point ``There are lot of Hadith describing the function of state.`` I was almost inclined to deduct 5 more points for your attempting the standard mullah trick of dragging in the hadith to negate the message of the Quran, but being a sympathetic examiner I decided to overlook this.

So as homework, repeat every day for the next 30 days: ``There is no mention of the Islamic State in the Quran.``

Question b. HOW can you talk about an Islamic State when the Quran says that implementation of religion is not the concern of the prophet? (yes, i asked you this question before, but you skipped it and it is now being repeated again in this supplementary exam).

Your Answer gets: 0 points.
Discussion: Contrary to your assumption, the defining characteristic of a State is in fact ``imposition``, and not merely ``implementation``. State Laws are not optional. If you break those laws, the State wont simply say ``Stealing things is not nice, my brother. See how unhappy you have made brother anew by driving away in his new car``: the state will handcuff you and drag you into court and put you behind bars. If you want to implement islam, start with yourself. Start with being honest and stop twisting words (the State, in this case).

Question c. WHO did the prophet appoint as his successor as leader of the muslim community? (Bonus question for extra points: And if not, why not in your opinion?)

Your answer gets: 0 points. You write: ``In his last days when he was weak enough to lead the prayers, he asked Abu Bakr Siddiq to lead the prayers. The Muslims took it as a signal and appointed him successor after his death.`` How could any rational muslim take this to mean anything more than what the prophet is supposed to have said?
you wtrite ``The Muslims have right to nominate someone and then people elect him by popular vote or Ba`yat . `` Where did you learn that only muslims have a right to vote? And before talking about votes, I suggest you read about the bloody manner in which successions took place. Usman was butchered to death by his own nephew, the shia-sunni split was due to a battle for succession. When an Ottoman king died, his eldest son routinely killed all his brothers (even the method of killing was ritualized over the centuries, being done through strangulation using the cord from a bow).

So, in total you get: 10 minus 5 plus 0 plus 0 = 5 points. Out of 100.
Here is the good news: you got 5 points for making an attempt. Dont be discouraged. Start using your mind, try to be honest, have faith in yourself, and inshallah one day you will forget about Islamic States and whatnot and realize what islam is all about - being a good human being. respecting other religions.

Re Hamidm 126

Point very well taken. If not the Qur`an, they will find it in some obscure hadith. If not that then in the seminal works of Al-Ghazzali. If all else fails to find a basis for this event in Islamic Sciences, then there is always the assorted nonsense of Maulana Ashraf Ali Thanvi and Maulana Maududi.

Jay, you sound like a major authority on Pakistan when you talk about the going ons in the streets, schools and mosques. By the way how many times have you had a chance to visit Pakistan and how many Pakistani`s do you know personally?

sigalph,

.......... you missed the number one line from apologists like tahmed and karen armstrong:

1. surah xxx of the koran foretold the demise of saddam

.............i hate to say this but the ummah still does not get it ............most of them still believe that they all they have to do is look for the answers in their arabic book of spells and potions ..................

Hamid, 118

It`s not Bremmer. He`s only a product of of a great system, the system we know as ``America``. It`s America that will save Islam, just as it has saved Christianity, Judaism, and the Negro race.

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view this users filtered interacts

Wait to hear the following lines from the Terror Apologists International(Al-Jazeera, Islamist regimes, California professors, The Guardian of London, Noam Chomsky, Urstruly,etc) in defense of Saddam Hussein:

10. Bush and Blair should be tried too

9. Saddam was bad but we should not have gone in to take him out

8. The Geneva Conventions were violated by photographing his capture

7. It is all a conspiracy hatched by the Jews to weaken those peaceful Arabs

6. He should have been read his Miranda rights-his arrest is unconstitutional

5. The tales of his atrocities are all lies fabricated by the Jewish controlled media

4. He meant well, he really did!

3. Okay he was not nice but he bravely stood up to the Zionists

2. He must be treated with dignity, respect, and housed in one of his palaces

1. It is not Saddam at all but a double created by the CIA to help Bush`s poll numbers

Remember folks, you heard it here first!