One Down Two to Go

hamidm2 #various
Don`t get your hopes up too high. The US wants a VIABLE agent in Iraq, not necessarily a `secular liberal democratic` one.

islam and the fat girls ..............

romair might have a point in that most arabs (actually all muslims) hate america ............. but why? ............ israel and all that crap about oil is putrid nonsense and a lame excuse -the real reason is simple ......actually, there are two simple reasons:

1)it is the same reason that fat girls hate beautiful girls and bumbling idiots hate smart people.

2) islam .......... the muslims are confused by a medieval seventh century idology that tells them that they are the chosen people, with the right book and the last messenger and that everyone else deserves to go to heel .......... it is the k for kafir education that jay talks about sometimes and that everyone else pooh-poohs ............

.............. as one can see the two combined make a deadly potion that would drive a person mad with hatred (brings shmiegel to mind!)..........``we are the chosen people and yet we are fat``, they ask .......... so it must be one of two things :

a) we are not following the diet prescribed in the book
b) the zionists and the americans are forcing us to eat their donuts and candy which is making us fat

............. following this logic there are two types of muslims :the mullahs who believe in (a) and people like romair who believe in (b).............. in either case they are wrought by self-pity, misery and blinding hatred and are therfore equally likely to fly planes into tall buildings and grow up to be suiciders or homiciders ..............but neither of them is a secular muslim - muhammad ata was simply a muslim with some bad habits ............ you cannot equate secularism with drinking - for god`s sake!............

............. as things stand today, there is no such thing as a ``secular muslim`` ............ it is silly of romair to suggest that saddam was a secular muslim - he was not ..........when the chips were down he had allah-o-akbar written on the iraqi flag and was constantly upending himself in prayer ..............he hated the ayathollahs because he wanted to live in the republican palace and they wanted to kick him out ............

.........so is there any hope?.......... of course there is ............iraq should set an example for the fat girls that you can look pretty too if you stop stuffing your face with baklava ..........

#185 Sigalph235

You agreed that killing happened between each other however out of proportion. So the logic leads that in 71, Muslim (Pakistani) were killer and Muslim (Bengalis) were victim (along with non- muslim). Both the oppressor and victims were Muslims. Then where is the logic of using sentence like “excuse the atrocities of Muslims just because they are Muslims”. Also why bring Arabs in 71. What is this “excusing thing”? Who is asking to excuse or forget? People are interested in reconciliation and move forward.

Surely we all know that there exist good/bad people of all ethnicity, nation, and religion. Why then pick only Muslim and Arab.

If you were allergic to the word ‘Muslim’ and ‘Arab’, or ‘Muslim’ means only Pakistan, then your writing would make sense. Otherwise Bengalis are fine with their Muslimism, and as a muslim, forgiveness and brotherhood is also a part of practicing faith where one does not go every time hurling and cursing a brother due to his national origin of some past incidents.

Dost-mittar #184: If the Americans are using secularism and Islam as the defining line for pro and anti-US govts., respectively, in the Middle East, then I think they may have just committed the biggest blunder of their lives, by invading Iraq. Iraq will never be more secular than it was under Saddam. The guy literally hounded out all the maulvis from the country, to the point that all of them had to move to Iran. He was the most secular Arab leader in generations.

Shah of Iran was an extremely secular leader. Look what happened to him.

Arabs hate America. Not just religious Arabs. But all Arabs. Secular Arabs, Mullah Arabs, thin Arabs, fat Arabs, Christian Arabs, Muslim Arabs, Sunni and Shia Arabs, Arabs who drink and Arabs who pray, male Arabs and female Arabs. In fact hatred of the USA may be the only thing all of them can agree on.

And they don’t hate the West, or the ideals of the West. They don’t hate Canada. France, was actually voted the second most liked non-Arab country by Arabs, in the world (ahead of Muslim countries). Arabs may be idiots for hating the USA, but they do. I have talked to so many now, and have heard so many on TV, that I am fully convinced of this. Even the few Arabs who supported this war, as a way to get rid of Saddam, dislike the USA, and want it to get out.

This is the point I was trying to make when I stated that the WTC terrorists had more in common, personally, with hamidm than with Naqshbandi. Those young men were very Westernised. A few were actually in a strip bar, a few nights before. So a secular elected govt. in Arabistan will (secularly) hate the Arabs - like the WTC hijackers hates them. And a religious elected govt. in Arabistan will religiously hate the USA - like OBL hates them.

This is why, for so long, successive US govts. followed the successful model of supporting autocrats in Arabistan. Everyone from Eisenhower to Clinton wasn’t stupid. They did the calcuations, and came to the conclusion, that there was no way to balance two conflicting concepts in the Middle East, i.e. a) the USA has to unconditionally support any good or evil action of Israel, regardless of how much it harms the USA itself; due to the strong Israeli lobby in the USA. b) the USA has to have access to the oilfields of Arabistan.

Action a) created a very anti-US population in Arabistan. So any kind of democracy in the region would automatically result in a nationalistic anti-US govt. This is what happened in non-Arab. This is what will happen in Saudi Arabia and Egypt and Jordan and any other Arab country. And this is what will happen in Iraq, if open and free elections are held.

So the only way to accomplish a) and b) was to support pro-US dictatorships in literally every Arab country in the region, while simultaneously supporting Israel unconditionally. This formula went off the ropes every now and then (like Iran), but it generally worked well.

Until 9/11 happened.

9/11 was the culmination of the inherent imbalances in this strategy. Sooner or later something had to give. Now the USA is trying, wildly, to get back to the same status-quo. But I am not sure it can, since every single elected govt. in Arabistan will be more anti-US than an autocratic govt. The only option is to install another autocratic govts. through the, “checks and balances” you mentioned. Those checks and balances will have to be along the pro-USA and anti-USA lines, not along the secularism and Islam lines. Since both secularists and Islamists hate the USA in Arabistan.

But with the checks and balances, we will be back to square one of the USA supporting pro-USA autocracies (even if they are despots).

The more Bush bombs Arab countries, the more anti-US and anti-autocracy, their population will become, since all bombings eventually kills someone. And if the USA decides to keep forces in Iraq, with an autocratic pro-USA govt., then how will Iraq be different from Saudi Arabia. Won’t it then become the next target of Al-Q?
The only way to solve this issue is to solve the Israel-Palestine problem, in a fair manner. This will then reduce anti-US feelings in Arabistan. This will then result in elected govts. that will not be anti-US. This will result in the deflation of the Al-Qs. Which will result in lack of threat to the USA, and free flow of oil. I am sure the Americans know all of this. And right after 9/11, Bush did start putting pressure on Sharon. But he backed off, due to the strong pro-Israel lobby.

Also, it is a misconception to think that Arabs cannot look after themselves. Countries that have had decent dictators, like Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Oman etc. are very nice places. Far nicer than India and Pakistan, to the point that even Hindu Indians willingly give up secularism and democracy to migrate their.

If the USA would leave the area alone and stop its one-sided support of Israel, all of Arabistan could turn into Dubai. And Americans would have all the oil they want, without being threatened by Al-Q.

re shobuz 177

Many Bangladeshis support the Pakistan cricket team in a lot of matches and I am one of them. Abroad, Bangladeshis form instant bonds of friendship with Pakistanis; having lived abroad 2/3ds of my life, I can attest to that too. Awami League is a treacherous party, I know and I have said it many times. The 3 million number may be debatable that is it may be accurate or more or less. Mukti-bahini personnel took part in scattered events of cruelty to non-Bengalis and Bengalis.

None of that is going to have me and millions of others excuse the atrocities of Muslims just because they are Muslims. None of that is going to have the effect of excusing the wretchedness of Arabs.

soysauce,

....... i don`t know ..... however, i still fondly remember the days when you could see a decent orthodontist at the american airbase in badaber ................

Re Mullah sahib`s
``somewhere about 50,000+ Muslim children, women, men, old and sick have been murdered in cold blood ``

This is the `numbers from the turban trick`.

``that even a country as defenseless and helpless as that of Iraq``

This is the talking from both side of mouth trick. On hand you guys say that Iraq was a threat to Israel and on the other it was defenseless and helpless. Can`t be both. Which means that you guys are clutching at straws.

urstruly,

........... you must have missed it when george said that america has no intention of ``taking over`` iraq......... all it wants is for abdul to run his own affairs in a civilized manner without threatening to blow up the world and keep on supplying us with dates during ramadhan and gas for our suv`s ............... is that too much to ask ?......... are you denying that the iraqis will be much better off a year from now than they ever could have dreamed off under saddam? ......... are you denying that the other thugs in the neighbourhood will shape up now that they know that there is a cop on the beat?............. isn`t it good to know that soon we actually might have a muslim country where god does not drive people to blow themselves up?.......... wouldn`t it be wonderful if we finally start electing our leaders instead of following the bad precedent set by the khulafa-i-rashidun?...............

............... george bush and the wizards of the american enterprise institute have offered the ummah the opportunity of a life time ............ if they don`t recognize it then they deserve to wallow in misery- living in caves and dying in spider holes ......................and oh, by the way, where were you when bill clinton was bombing the heck out of christian serbs to save sorry posteriors that are upended five times a day ?

Romair:
I agree that getting a truly democratic govt. in Iraq to the liking of Bush may be very difficult. So, they will make sure that the constitution has safeguards against an islamic govt. coming to power. They will also somehow ensure permanent bases for US there.
From now on, Saudis are going to be more and more dependent upon the amricans to stay in power. I dont know how the Americans can prevent islamists from taking over there. But their troops in the neighbouring Iraq are unlikely to remain silent spectators if a revolution takes place in Riyadh.
On Iran, the general betting in the US think tanks is that mullacracy is not going to remain there for too long and democratic, though not secular, forces will take over in the next 5-10 years.
However, if Bush continues with its crusade, nobody can tell how the universe will unfold itself.

hamidm

``my sense of proportion``? have you gone nuts completely? or whiteman`s indoctrination has blinded your good sense and judgement so bad that you can not see for yourself that even a country as defenseless and helpless as that of Iraq has NOT taken over still. It is almost nine months now, and somewhere about 50,000+ Muslim children, women, men, old and sick have been murdered in cold blood and Americans still have NOT been able to ``take over`` Iraq. bhai sahib asmaan tuN thallay aa jao. Bhai somalia waloN ki jootaybaazi bhi bhool gayay. I suggest that you stick to your camel and dates routine - International politics is too much for you to handle.

Hamidm ji,
All your arguments would be equally true for abdul in pakistan as well. Should we conclude that you`d welcome an US invasion and take over of Pakistan? If not, why not?
PS: Did you see the recent news item about how regular consumption of alcohol can lead to brain shrinkage?

PM,
Here are some cites:
http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/index.php?page=local&story_id=100403b1_hotelhomicide
http://beta.kpix.com/news/local/2003/10/27/Funeral_for_Marine_Who_Survived_Iraq,_But_Not_Long_Beach.html?print
http://greenvilleonline.com/news/2003/07/07/200307079664.htm

urstruly,

what do you mean ? ........``May be it is us, who are simply over-impressed by whiteman`s dog and ponny shows and shock and awe shows.``

.............. you don`t think taking over a country the size of iraq in less than two weeks and with less than 200 casualties is not impressive ?!!....... what is ?........... digging a ditch and fighting off three thousand bedouins and then beheading 700 men who were ``against us`` instead off simply not allowing them to bid on ``reconstructing`` the mud huts and planting the uprooted date palms ?........... where is your sense of proportion?..............or are you still bitter that george bush didn`t send a note via dhl to saddam inviting him to convert to christianity or `` face people who love death as much as he loved life``???? .............. you know that would have been a lie - americans love life because they have made it worth living (for all of us)...............

look who is talking .......... benazir says that america should stay in until abdul learns to walk ........

http://www.gulfnews.com/Articles/news.asp?ArticleID=105762

...... and check out the other arab newspapers and see how everyone is falling in line ........... the poor colonel was chastised for speaking the truth :`` you have to understand the arab mind - the only thing they respect is force`` ..............and that is exactly the receipe for maulana fazloo, maulana sandwich, qazi hussain and his hooded daughter, and all those other bearded fools who need to be inspected for lice ...........actually, the mullahs are not the real problem - if they survive they can always go back to the mosque, live off halwa and handouts, and molest little boys for fun - it is the unbearded cyber warriors like romair who will continue to rant and rave in cyberspace ...........maybe al gore, the man who invented the internet, can cut them off ...............

Romair#176

Good analysis. However, for the past few days I am thinking about a different theory i.e. may be the current US regime consists of plainly prejudiced and anti-Muslim morons and intellectual pygmies, who have no idea how to tell right from left. May be it is us, who are simply over-impressed by whiteman`s dog and ponny shows and shock and awe shows.

ferozk #166
Feel free to make any assumptions as long as you understood my post #127.

#157: Sigalph235

Who would argue over the wrong that was done in 71? No forgetting of that. Changing from one Pakistan to two Nation has displaced many people in many ways that cannot be summarize in one book. If you look at the reasons, causes, facts, histories, situations that lead to 71 and the aftermath of it, simply do not lead Bangladesh of justifying every of it accusations towards Pakistanis. Bangladeshis themselves are not so holy when it came to killing. However in less, atrocity towards Pakistanis did occur too. What about those Pakistanis that settled in Bangladesh permanently and were in a situation similar to 47 divisions. If fairness is the issue, then however few, killing of West Pakistani army personnel near Jessore should not have happened when they went for shopping. But who killed more, West did more. No mistake on the wrongness of that part.

You mentioned about repenting. Haven’t West Pakistan officially said what happened was grave wrong. You asked about people that are responsible should have been brought to justice. How much stability, financial strength, defense moral, motivation existed in West Pakistan after the fall of 71. Imagine the shock of breaking up to two and worry of future problem that may have arise within local and from India due to this fall. Pakistan itself had so much problem that it was more concern of how to get back on its own feet, rather worrying about Bangladesh who that time appeared to be marching towards glorious days. These are facts among many facts. An approach of past history definitely find many wrong of Pakistanis on 71, but demanding so bluntly that those reason itself should be held forever to map the future relation, does not give Bangladesh any advances in any way. It only satisfies the emotional need for compensating of what happen in the past. But then again history of 71 will remain there, it won’t be forgotten. No one is asking to forget it, but severity of feeling ness of those atrocities will change as new generation comes in. As you can see After 30 years people still celebrate 25th March & 16th December with its fullest, that is a prove that they haven’t forgotten what happened, but also playing “Zamaat & Pakistan card” has not benefited Awami league too much. Have you seen the number of Bangladeshi supports Pakistan in Cricket? Or should they be called traitors as often Awami people calls them. Should a teenage Bangladeshi remind a teenage Pakistani of what happened every time they meet each other, or should they discuss other things too.

Bangladesh gained its independence from Pakistan to leave happily and progressively where they would rule by their own. No need to dig on how much prosperity Bangladesh gained comparing to Pakistan within last 30 years in every sector, but surely not an impressive figure. This is not to say who is good or bad, but a prove that issue of hurling at Pakistanis should be a low priority when they themselves are proven are no better of Pakistanis. As long Pakistanis (Like Ustruly) not justifying of wrong of 71, then it is in Paksitanis full business of what they say, and Bangladeshis are no better of criticizing them via mentioning 71. Neither Bangladeshis would be quiet on atrocities committed by Mujib’s family and Awami league after 71 to their fellow Bengali Muslim brothers, nor that will be forgotten via using “Zamaat and Pakistan” card. Reminisces of old memories is part of human nature, but using that and building a pattern of permanent hatred is a loser’s choice. There is hope because new generation of these two nations are moving towards a friendly relation. “Inzamam’s out on 99 WC against Bangladesh” was one of that sign. The way families of both countries in foreign nation embraces each other to fill their emptiness of missing families and neighbors back home, would be another example.

Any killing is condemned, but because Muzib translated word “3 lakh” to English “ 3 million”, and then later ‘English to Bengali’ as “30 lakh”, is incorrect and need a correction. Bangladeshi historian & politician would be beneficiary to their nation if they are correct and truthful on their factual account, a problem also face by Pakistan.