Rethinking Plebiscite In Kashmir

rsridhar,

nice to know that you are old and rich, that`s a rare combintion indeed. btw, people who have been under muslim, christian rule for more than a thousand years don`t have the balls to do jehad, even if they want to.

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nazar #57 the only entity worthy of respect is the one that respects the rights of the individual. there is no indication that a ``united kashmir`` will respect the rights of the individual anymore than they have been respected by successive governments in pakistan.

the best thing musharaff can do for the indivdual kashmiri is to settle on the LOC and have the pakistan army work with the indians to bring an end to the mullah violence. after a few years of peace, it will be easy enough for kashmiris with split families to visit one another and thus be re-united anyway. the average kashmiri will not care that kashmir is split anymore than the average panjabi or bengali cares that panjab and bengal were split. provinces and countries are artificial constructs - a means to individual welfare, not some kind of a sacred end in themselves.

Romair # 60

I will tell you what Vajpayee is going to say at SAARC. He is going to say ``Whole of J&K is INTEGRAL PART (ATOOOT AANG) of INDIA``. Little birdie told me that. So Hold your breath.

Judging from Indian response to all the unilateral concessions that Musharraf made, we can conclude that the other side is in no mood for a quick reconciliation. Pakistan should forget about India completely and do things that make sense in getting its house in order. This means only unilateral actions that make sense for Pakistan. Set up a truth and reconciliation commission which should reveal entirely:

- The CIA – ISI involvement in Afghanistan and subsequent divorce.
- All jehadic links within the forces which have been there but are now terminated and helping these outfits to mend their evil ways and if not their punishment.
- Education policy – how the truth was subverted to achieve short term goals.
- Lay bare the nuclear proliferation story completely and make a fresh start for the future.
- Kashmir policy – an open debate as far as costs and benefits of the policy and an analysis under the new paradigm. If we are abandoning this policy the benefits and losses from this change. Would there be a peace dividend in terms of reduction in army budget and greater resources being allocated to development and the economy. The extent of army control on country assets and how this should be altered.
- Land reform – challenge to vederas and tribals – lets hear all sides.
- Excesses of the bureaucracy and police – total revelation.

It’s may lead to a complete meltdown but this is essential for us to make a new beginning. This is the only way for Pakistan to be in peace with itself and all its neighbors.

I say, Romair, your views on Pakistan Occupied Kashmir, or POK, are very supercilious, to say the very least. After giving away much of their land to the Chinese, and no mention of the various demands within POK, you have the gall to say ````Pakistani Kashmiris are actually quite happy with Pakistan. I say this through personal experience. They are treated quite well. Kashmir is, domestically, by a huge margin, the most peaceful part of Pakistan. You can read all the newspapers, you will never find any crimes from Kashmir.````

This demand for a federal structure for Kashmir, call it autonomy if you wish, call it freedom otherwise, is something that we already have for every state in India, not just Kashmir. So what is new here, are Pakistanis also demanding something like this, so why restrict it only to POK, please consider providing it, along with democracy, to the rest of Pakistan? Welcome.

The demand for an open border, well India already has one with Nepal, with Bhutan, with Bangladesh, even with Sri Lanka inspite of water in between. So what is new here, India will do this with Pakistan also, along Gujarat, Rajasthan, Punjab and Jammu / Kashmir / Ladakh, it would be very welcome, why only Kashmir?

Peace between India and Pakistan depends not just on Kashmir, but also on one bigger element. And that is simple:-

The Indian Government decides and moves BY the will of the people.

The Pakistani Government decides and moves FOR the people, regardless.

In India, the Gods today are consumers. The economy is everything.

In Pakistan, please worry about the Gods of the Pakistanis, slight modification required there, after that, everything will fall into place.

pmishra #40: ``autonomy/azadi within the indian union be granted to kashmir valley (and relevant portions from Pakistan).``

What exactly is azadi within an Indian union?

NazarHayatKhan #57: ``Why should the wretched Kashmiris be divided. Why should this centuries old historical entity of one Kashmir be killed? The solution must contain a united Kashmir - in some form and under some arrangement``

This is theoretically maybe the best solution. Or mayb have been the best solution in 47. And is infact the demand of the Kashmiris on the Indian side. But I cannot see any manner in which it would be implemented. Following are some of the points that need to be considered:

- Pakistani Kashmir is actually theoretically not a part of Pakistan. It has its own flag, and its own President, own govt. etc. For example, Pakistan was under Martial Law, but Kashmir was not. However, practically it is a part of Pakistan. Pakistani Kashmiris are actually quite happy with Pakistan. I say this through personal experience. They are treated quite well. Kashmir is, domestically, by a huge margin, the most peaceful part of Pakistan. You can read all the newspapers, you will never find any crimes from Kashmir. Only recently some Shia-Sunni riots have started in Northern Areas, Otherwise Pakistani Kashmir is very peaceful, in comparison to Punjab, Sind etc.

- Pakistani Kashmiris get a good deal from Pakistan. There are a lot of affirmative action programs. There is a lot of grassroots development in Kashmir. In addition, there are not large landowning families that rule over Kashmir. So the Kashmiris are not living in a slave like existence, under feudals. My village in Kashmir, with no powerful politician in command, is decades ahead of a family village in Punjab. The former is now thinking of setting up a women`s college, while the later barely has a girls elementary school. Even though Punjabi politicians are much more powerful than Kashmiri politicians in Pakistan.

- Pakistani Kashmiris are now fully integrated with Punjabis, through marriages, migrations, language, military, education institutes, etc. More Kashmiris probably live in Lahore, Pakistan than in Muzzafarabad, Kashmir. And Pakistani Kashmiris speak Punjabi and Urdu, and cannot actually speak Kashmiri. It is almost impossible to tell the difference between a Pakistani Punjabi and Pakistani Kashmiri (other than the later`s fairer skin, in some cases). So Kashmir couldn`t just break away, from Pakistan, without major disruptions in the families married into Punjab and vice-versa, like my own. For example, where would I go.

So, I am not sure whether Pakistani Kashmiris would want to actually leave Pakistan, into an independent Kashmir. Maybe they would. I certainly would not, even though my family is quite prominent in Kashmir, and completely unknown in Punjab.

- Ladakh and Jammu`s voting patterns indicate that they are quite happy with India. They generally have high(er) turnouts in the elections also. This area has a majority of Bhuddist and Hindu population. Other than those parts of these areas that border the Valley. 66% of the population of Jammu is Hindu, while 50% of the population of Ladakh is Bhuddist. I really don`t think the people from here would feel comfortable in an independent Kashmir that was overwhelmingly dominated by Muslims, and would obviously have a big tilt towards Pakistan. Pakistani Kashmiris would probably end up dominating the beaurecracy and politics etc., since they are probably much better trained, having had access to all of the facilities in Pakistan.

My guess is those areas would themselves want to join India, other than the border areas.

- This leaves the Valley. This is really where all the violence is. It is actually a small(er) part of Kashmir. In a free vote, it would probably go to Pakistan. That is (was) its natural place. after 47. However, India would obviously not agree to it joining Pakistan. India has been unable to integrate it into India, either through economic policies or through force. It is thus in a state of limbo.

- If India could hold a free vote there, and somehow get them to join India willingly, then that would solve the problem. But I doubt after all the violence, they will want to join India. Otherwise they would have done so, earlier. So what to do with this area, that would satisfy everyone.

- I cannot think of anything, other than some sort of independence. After that, they could slowly decide which side they want to associate with, since they would be heavily dependent on either Pakistan or India (or both) to function. I assume they would have more economic and probably (linguistic) ties with Indian Kashmir. And they would more religious and nationalistic ties with Pakistani Kashmir. Maybe they could utilize both countries.

The important thing is for both countries to move away from their impractical maximilist position. Pakistanis cannot take Kashmir through force. And Indians cannot control Kashmir through force. Both countries need to accept that. Pakistan seems to have accepted it, and has put it on the table, i.e. no more UN Resolutions. Now India has to accept it by stating no more atut-ang. After that there are a million and one ways to solve the Kashmir problem. Some of them are on the website run by the Kashmiri CEO of USA`s furniture giant Ethan Allen, at www.kashmirstudygroup.com. It has a lot of prominent US scholars as its members.

Most importantly, the wishes of the Kashmiri people need to be taken into account first. And neither country should try to use any tricks to enforce only its own solution. I have followed the APHC leaders` statements. They are probably the most sane leadership in South Asia. They rarely make stupid statements. If they are allowed to take the lead, they will come up with something useful.

A lot of people, including me, are holding their breaths now, and waiting for Vajpayee to indicate in some manner, that atut-ang no longer holds, at the SAARC summit. I don`t know if the BJPwallahs will let him make such a statement. If he does make it, then we are probably onto a peaceful road. If he doesn`t, then I think we are back to square one.

Following is a starting point suggested by the Kashmir Study Group. They then go on to offer six different solutions:

``KASHMIR - A WAY FORWARD

---

The following proposal was developed by some members of the Kashmir Study Group in consultation with several Indians and Pakistanis.

We recommend that a portion of the former princely State of Jammu and Kashmir be reconstituted as a sovereign entity (but one without an international personality) enjoying free access to and from both India and Pakistan. The portion of the State to be so reconstituted shall be determined through an internationally supervised ascertainment of the wishes of the Kashmiri people on either side of the Line of Control. This ascertainment would follow agreement among India, Pakistan, and representatives of the Kashmiri people to move forward with this proposal. The sovereignty of the new entity would be guaranteed by India, Pakistan, and appropriate international bodies.

The new entity would have its own secular, democratic constitution, as well as its own citizenship, flag, and a legislature, which would legislate on all matters other than defense and foreign affairs. India and Pakistan would be responsible for the defense of the Kashmiri entity, which would itself maintain police and gendarme forces for internal law and order purposes. India and Pakistan would be expected to work out financial arrangements for the Kashmiri entity, which could include a currency of its own.

Kashmiri citizenship would also entitle such citizens to acquire Indian or Pakistani passports (depending on which side of the Line of Control they live on). Alternatively, they could use entity passports subject to endorsement by India or Pakistan as appropriate.

The borders of Kashmir with India and Pakistan would remain open for the free transit of people, goods, and services in accordance with arrangements to be worked out between India, Pakistan, and the Kashmiri entity.

While the present Line of Control would remain in place until such time as both India and Pakistan decided to alter it in their mutual interest, both India and Pakistan would demilitarize the area included in the Kashmir entity, except to the extent necessary to maintain logistic support for forces outside the State that could not otherwise be effectively supplied. Neither India nor Pakistan could place troops on the other side of the Line of Control without the permission of the other state.

All displaced persons, including Kashmiri Pandits, who left any portion of the Kashmir entity, shall have the right to return to their homesteads.

The proposal represents a practical framework that could satisfy the interests of the people of Kashmir, India, and Pakistan. It would end civil strife and the tragic destruction of life and property in Kashmir. By resolving the principal issue that could lead to armed conflict between India and Pakistan, it would go far towards relaxing political tensions in South Asia. It would offer enormous economic benefits not only to Kashmir, but also to India, Pakistan, and all of the South Asia region.

Livingston, New York
December 1, 1998 `` (http://www.kashmirstudygroup.com/)

#57 by nazarhayatkhan
// I do not agree with your solution....Why should the wretched Kashmiris be divided....Why should this centuries old historical entity of one Kashmir be killed?//

Well - then why were Punjabis divided or Bengalis divided ? Why were these ``centuries old historical entity`` of One Punjab or One Bengal killed?

If such division worked good for Punjabis and Bengalis - so it will also work for the ``wretched`` Kashmiris.

Any case Kashmiris have been living ``deivided`` for half century - no damage has happened to their culture. ``Kashmiriyat`` - that over-hyped term, is alive and kicking , at least on the Indian Kashmir - even if one of its constituents, the Kashmiri Pundits - are missing from the scene right now.
++++

Pakistan has a long way to go before it can have ``peaceful co-existance `` with anybody - let alone India. The Land of Jihad and Taliban has to have a complete overhaul of its mindset and its ruling establishment. A united or devided Kashmir has nothing to do with it.

Hoodbhoy

We are already years & years late - and have lost useful time by having an ostrich mentality.

Whenever the Army steps in, the Ruler begins his learning process. By the time he grasps the issue & gets out of his ARMY BOX, he is gone & another learning cycle begins.

Only I do not agree with your solution. Why should the wretched Kashmiris be divided. Why should this centuries old historical entity of one Kashmir be killed? The solution must contain a united Kashmir - in some form and under some arrangement. As Pmishra has suggested.

A united Kashmir may prove to be a good omen for a peaceful co-existance of India & Pakistan.

Kashmiris have suffered agony from the Indian atrocities and oppression and now betrayl from Pakistan. Both should liberate the Occupied territory and liberate the Kashmir. Kashmir is only for Kashmiris and no Bunder bant will be accepted. Kashmiris want independence from Tyrant India and also does not want to join U-turn Pakistanis. I hope Pervez Hoodbhoy is still a teacher and not being hired by Islamabad Meterological department as a `weathercock`.

re:#54 by yagacho
I certainly use my time wisely. Some people do jehad, others work hard, earn a lot of money and when time permits, surf and interact, like i do. Does this satisfy you?
Sridhar

There are a few facts of life up and running in India right now, and I doubt that political borders or administrative fiats, leave alone methods of governance, will prevail:-

a) Reforms, not religion, is where the elusive common man is looking to.

b) Decisions by the people, not for the people, is where matters are headed.

c) Agriculture and food production are visible as the movers for consumerism.

Seems to me that this is where a lot of Pakistan is also looking at heading for.

As for plebiscite in Kashmir, let us all get a life, and realise that Pakistan will soon have about as much influence on what happens there as will, say, Bihar.

rsridhar,

re: #53, 52, 51, 50 and 49

you certainly have lot of time on your disposal. is posting on chowk your p/t job or something???

re:#30 by sac
Outsourcing bubble? What the heck is that?
India`s economy as far as i know is not dependent on outsourcing though it is an important source of employment and foreign exchange.
India`s economy has just shackled off the socialistic pattern of growth. With free market, opportunities are immense. In areas like Biotechnology, Pharmaceuticals, R and D etc apart from IT and ITES (IT enabled services).
Sridhar

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re: this article
A very timely and well written article by Mr Hoodhbhoy, one of the few sane voices in Pakistan. I will have to respond to specifics at a later date.
#2 by Tolckinen
In this day and age, economy dictates who calls the shots. This is why small states like Japan, Singapore are international players. This is the reason why China has been concentrating on its economy for the past 20 years.
Recent report shows ONGC`s (Oil and Natural Gas Commission of India) budget exceeds Karachi Stock exchange`s.
http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=323749
And, India`s market turnover exceeds 1 trillion $
http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=323753

``The turnover of the Indian financial markets topped $1 trillion today, a week before the close of the current calendar year.

The combined turnover of the equity, derivatives and debt markets stood at $1.13 trillion, against $0.677 trillion in 2002. ``
Sridhar