Rethinking Plebiscite In Kashmir
Pervez Hoodbhoy December 25, 2003
#162 Posted by ajeya on March 9, 2005 11:10:33 pm
I once asked an Israeli friend of mine why, if Israelis are secular, Israel has to be a Jewish state by its constitution. His reply was that the muslim population in Israel multiplies at a far higher rate than the jewish population, and once the muslims gain majority, they`ll use democratic mechanisms to create an Islamic country under Allah, and impose Sharia laws on everybody.
And maybe in this day and age they won`t be able to apply the religiously mandated ``religious tax`` on minorities, but then you never know.
He gave the example of Kashmir, which for thousands of years was a Hindu country, the birthplace of great saints and scholars of hinduism, where, since the Muslim population, is beyond the tipping point, muslims all over the world have been demanding that DEMOCRATICALLY it should be an Islamic state, because the Hindu minorities` opinions can be voted out.
When Pakistanis and Kashmiris say that Kashmir should be for Kashmiris, they are actually saying ``Kashmir should be for Muslims``, because the Hindus sure do not agree.
I wonder what the gentle people on Chowk think about this.
And maybe in this day and age they won`t be able to apply the religiously mandated ``religious tax`` on minorities, but then you never know.
He gave the example of Kashmir, which for thousands of years was a Hindu country, the birthplace of great saints and scholars of hinduism, where, since the Muslim population, is beyond the tipping point, muslims all over the world have been demanding that DEMOCRATICALLY it should be an Islamic state, because the Hindu minorities` opinions can be voted out.
When Pakistanis and Kashmiris say that Kashmir should be for Kashmiris, they are actually saying ``Kashmir should be for Muslims``, because the Hindus sure do not agree.
I wonder what the gentle people on Chowk think about this.
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#161 Posted by mumbaikar on January 15, 2004 7:02:43 am
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#160 Posted by mumbaikar on January 6, 2004 8:32:19 pm
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#159 Posted by mumbaikar on January 5, 2004 7:48:19 am
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#158 Posted by mumbaikar on January 4, 2004 5:05:55 pm
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#156 Posted by ironman on January 3, 2004 3:11:41 pm
jamshed,
``How many of our so friendly indian friends here in chowk, who brag about Indian IT dollars or patents written for US multinationals, have actually been beaten by police. Any one? kept in lockup and tortured? Any brothers slaughtered ? sisters raped? have you seen massive unemployment? insecurity every day? police raids? ``encounters``?? A goverment - a police force - a military, when given a blanket license to kill, by acts like POTA( Indian anti terrorist act), in fact becomes a vicious monster that can slaughter any of its ``subjects`` to preserve ``national interest``.``
Well said! This brought tears to my eyes jamshed saab.
I think most indians are simply envious of their prosperous neighbour and will do anything to block pakistan`s steady progress.
Consider for example, the talented pakistani troupe performing at guantanamo bay...in their gay orange dresses. Their performance is viewed and applauded all over the world, bringing glory to pakistan...and the indians cannot stomach that.
I believe these talented pakistanis performers at g-bay have created a new dance in which you hop about on your haunches as if you wanted to walk and $hit at the same time...called pakistani bung-rah or something like that.
However, too much dance and music can become addictive...and rob the young nation of much needed fresh blood.
Therefore, much as you may disagree and protest...I beseech you to put aside your self-sacrifising urge...and please think of your sons and grandsons first. You don`t want to see them doing the bung-rah in orangies.
best wishes,
-shell head
``How many of our so friendly indian friends here in chowk, who brag about Indian IT dollars or patents written for US multinationals, have actually been beaten by police. Any one? kept in lockup and tortured? Any brothers slaughtered ? sisters raped? have you seen massive unemployment? insecurity every day? police raids? ``encounters``?? A goverment - a police force - a military, when given a blanket license to kill, by acts like POTA( Indian anti terrorist act), in fact becomes a vicious monster that can slaughter any of its ``subjects`` to preserve ``national interest``.``
Well said! This brought tears to my eyes jamshed saab.
I think most indians are simply envious of their prosperous neighbour and will do anything to block pakistan`s steady progress.
Consider for example, the talented pakistani troupe performing at guantanamo bay...in their gay orange dresses. Their performance is viewed and applauded all over the world, bringing glory to pakistan...and the indians cannot stomach that.
I believe these talented pakistanis performers at g-bay have created a new dance in which you hop about on your haunches as if you wanted to walk and $hit at the same time...called pakistani bung-rah or something like that.
However, too much dance and music can become addictive...and rob the young nation of much needed fresh blood.
Therefore, much as you may disagree and protest...I beseech you to put aside your self-sacrifising urge...and please think of your sons and grandsons first. You don`t want to see them doing the bung-rah in orangies.
best wishes,
-shell head
#155 Posted by gujjubania on January 3, 2004 1:13:13 am
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#154 Posted by jay on January 3, 2004 1:13:11 am
kashmir and muslims,
Pakistanis are so concerned about the indian muslims in kashmir. No one dares to ask the question, how come other indian muslims are not concerned.
The romairs of chowk have insisted that there is only a few cross border terrorism. The facts in the last few weeks is the proof, hardly any terrorist has been shot dead in kashmir, implying that they are all jihadists from pakistan.
Pakistanis are so concerned about the indian muslims in kashmir. No one dares to ask the question, how come other indian muslims are not concerned.
The romairs of chowk have insisted that there is only a few cross border terrorism. The facts in the last few weeks is the proof, hardly any terrorist has been shot dead in kashmir, implying that they are all jihadists from pakistan.
#153 Posted by rsridhar on January 2, 2004 7:24:36 pm
re: India`s economic development: the reality
http://www.dawn.com/2004/01/02/int4.htm
``Hegemonic ambitions holding India back: experts
By Our Special Correspondent
NEW DELHI, Jan 1: India wants to become a super power by 2020, but it is being held back, according to its own socio-economic intellectuals, by its own hegemonic ambitions in the region , its massive energy deficit and its economy`s continued dependence on the monsoon.
India, at this point in its development, appears to be obsessed with China`s economic development and therefore, tends to make comparisons all the time with this larger neighbour of its, though its exports are still one per cent of world trade compared to four per cent of China`s.
The anticipated growth rate of seven per cent this year appears to have given India some kind of self-confidence and it has started flaunting it inside and outside the country.
However, it longs for support from the US and Japan in its bid for a permanent seat in the UN Security council. For the same reason, New Delhi wants to get the Kashmir issue resolved one way or the other at the earliest.
And it wants to approach the oncoming energy crisis with a set of innovative ideas, including gas pipelines passing through Pakistan from Iran and Turkmenistan. And finally it wants to build its conventional as well as non-conventional muscles in such a way as to send messages across the continents that a new superpower has arrived.
However, people here are also mindful that a seven per cent GDP growth rate comes after a year of 4.6% growth rate, preceded by a performance of 5.7 per cent and 3.9 per cent, which still shows the average growth rate to be in a low trajectory.
India`s tele-density is a mere 3.2 per 100, and with 58 million of 180 million households with gas connections suggesting that most of the households with an income under Rs 80,000 per annum are without cheap and subsidized energy.
Infant mortality in India is 69 per 1000, life expectancy is about 63 years, rate of literacy is recorded at 65 per cent, energy sufficiency is 527 billion kwh and consumption is a mere 379 kwh per capita. This makes the reality rather too unpalatable for those who are looking at 2020 with a lot of anticipation.
India, however, ranks third with arms transfer agreements valued at eight billion dollars during 1999-2002. India`s reserves have gone up to 100 billion dollars - almost equal to the import bill for 15 months. But the shortfall in infrastructure, particularly in power and education, is said to be staggering.
And with about 26 per cent of the population still living inpoverty, stagnating rates of unemployment, and its heavy dependence on agriculture, which still amounts to 25 per cent of GDP and 70 per cent of employment, means that a bad monsoon can nullify the gains of the current improvements.
The country continues to remain politically dependent on subsidies, swelling fiscal deficits that limit growth and investment in health and education. India does appear poised to reap more from the FDI in the coming years. Until now the Indian diaspora has accounted far less than 10 per cent of the foreign money flowing to India.
But now it seems that the Indians living abroad have understood the potential of their mother country and are coming back in hordes looking for investment avenues. And India hopes that with their help the country could become the world`s technological lab.
A lot of India is shining these days, with Bangalore, Hyderabad and even parts of New Delhi giving a look of having reached. However, Indians are still not talking about takeoffs, but congratulating each other that perhaps the train is all set to leave the station.
On Jan 10, India is hosting a conference of its NRIs (non- resident Indians) in New Delhi and this meet is expected to yield results that are expected to take India to heights it has never seen before. ``
It is worth reiterating that India`s agriculture accounts for 25% of India`s GDP and 70% of employment. A single bad monsoon brings down the GDP growth drastically. India`s GDP growth was good in 2003 because of a good monsoon.
So, is India shining?
May be. More likely, the high profile Ads in some Indian newspapers are.
Sridhar
http://www.dawn.com/2004/01/02/int4.htm
``Hegemonic ambitions holding India back: experts
By Our Special Correspondent
NEW DELHI, Jan 1: India wants to become a super power by 2020, but it is being held back, according to its own socio-economic intellectuals, by its own hegemonic ambitions in the region , its massive energy deficit and its economy`s continued dependence on the monsoon.
India, at this point in its development, appears to be obsessed with China`s economic development and therefore, tends to make comparisons all the time with this larger neighbour of its, though its exports are still one per cent of world trade compared to four per cent of China`s.
The anticipated growth rate of seven per cent this year appears to have given India some kind of self-confidence and it has started flaunting it inside and outside the country.
However, it longs for support from the US and Japan in its bid for a permanent seat in the UN Security council. For the same reason, New Delhi wants to get the Kashmir issue resolved one way or the other at the earliest.
And it wants to approach the oncoming energy crisis with a set of innovative ideas, including gas pipelines passing through Pakistan from Iran and Turkmenistan. And finally it wants to build its conventional as well as non-conventional muscles in such a way as to send messages across the continents that a new superpower has arrived.
However, people here are also mindful that a seven per cent GDP growth rate comes after a year of 4.6% growth rate, preceded by a performance of 5.7 per cent and 3.9 per cent, which still shows the average growth rate to be in a low trajectory.
India`s tele-density is a mere 3.2 per 100, and with 58 million of 180 million households with gas connections suggesting that most of the households with an income under Rs 80,000 per annum are without cheap and subsidized energy.
Infant mortality in India is 69 per 1000, life expectancy is about 63 years, rate of literacy is recorded at 65 per cent, energy sufficiency is 527 billion kwh and consumption is a mere 379 kwh per capita. This makes the reality rather too unpalatable for those who are looking at 2020 with a lot of anticipation.
India, however, ranks third with arms transfer agreements valued at eight billion dollars during 1999-2002. India`s reserves have gone up to 100 billion dollars - almost equal to the import bill for 15 months. But the shortfall in infrastructure, particularly in power and education, is said to be staggering.
And with about 26 per cent of the population still living inpoverty, stagnating rates of unemployment, and its heavy dependence on agriculture, which still amounts to 25 per cent of GDP and 70 per cent of employment, means that a bad monsoon can nullify the gains of the current improvements.
The country continues to remain politically dependent on subsidies, swelling fiscal deficits that limit growth and investment in health and education. India does appear poised to reap more from the FDI in the coming years. Until now the Indian diaspora has accounted far less than 10 per cent of the foreign money flowing to India.
But now it seems that the Indians living abroad have understood the potential of their mother country and are coming back in hordes looking for investment avenues. And India hopes that with their help the country could become the world`s technological lab.
A lot of India is shining these days, with Bangalore, Hyderabad and even parts of New Delhi giving a look of having reached. However, Indians are still not talking about takeoffs, but congratulating each other that perhaps the train is all set to leave the station.
On Jan 10, India is hosting a conference of its NRIs (non- resident Indians) in New Delhi and this meet is expected to yield results that are expected to take India to heights it has never seen before. ``
It is worth reiterating that India`s agriculture accounts for 25% of India`s GDP and 70% of employment. A single bad monsoon brings down the GDP growth drastically. India`s GDP growth was good in 2003 because of a good monsoon.
So, is India shining?
May be. More likely, the high profile Ads in some Indian newspapers are.
Sridhar
#152 Posted by anew on January 2, 2004 7:24:36 pm
#150 by gujjubania on January 2, 2004 7:49am PT
Conclusion : India will only get better , while Pakistan will only get worse.
Yes, India and Israel will `get better` and Kashmiris and Palestinians will `get worse`.
Conclusion : India will only get better , while Pakistan will only get worse.
Yes, India and Israel will `get better` and Kashmiris and Palestinians will `get worse`.
#151 Posted by jamshednazar on January 2, 2004 3:22:21 pm
Dear Hoodbhoy!
A decent postion from the pakistani perspective indeeed. However, you have not considered the Kashmiris themselves ... they are the ones who own this land... not us in Islamabad or New Delhi. The solution of Kashmir will come out of the Valley itself, not through the drawing rooms of our capitals. Kashmiris have proved that they have a will and self respect that no one can steal from them. All praise to Kashmiris!!
The latest round of Kashmiri struggle that started in 1989 was a movement for the independance of Kashmir, and it was appropriate at the time with the breakup of the Soviet Union and a new emerging world order. Many other nations were able to revive their national identity. Indian Kashmiris have not achieved this indepence. This is a fact.
However, in the last fifteen years, the atrocities that have been committed against Kashmiris have created an intensity of hate that is not going to be wished away by Islamabad, New Delhi or Washington. Would people in Iraq forget the bombing, the mid night raids, the shoot outs every day? Would people in Palestine forget the brutality of the IDF? How can you really forget?
Yes, some funky engineeer in banglore is happy, but the guy who is beaten up in a lock up in Srinagar is not happy at all!! Rather, he is waiting to get out and pay back.
How many of our so friendly indian friends here in chowk, who brag about Indian IT dollars or patents written for US multinationals, have actually been beaten by police. Any one? kept in lockup and tortured? Any brothers slaughtered ? sisters raped? have you seen massive unemployment? insecurity every day? police raids? ``encounters``?? A goverment - a police force - a military, when given a blanket license to kill, by acts like POTA( Indian anti terrorist act), in fact becomes a vicious monster that can slaughter any of its ``subjects`` to preserve ``national interest``.
Not to say that Pakistani military has been an angel, considering what they did in Bangla Desh. But the fact is, when Indians beat up people in Kashmir, it is national interest, and when Kashmiris blow up some indian military installations - it is subversion, terrorism, jihadism, ``ghuspethiyeh``, cross border infiltration etc etc. But the reality is
who cares really? do the resisters in Iraq care about what Fox News says about them? No Sir
they do not have that kind of time... they are busy planning their next attacks. Likewise, as recent attacks on Musharraf exibit, Kashmiris are determined to take on who ever it is.... Indain parliament or Musharraf .. who ever pushes them to the line... is going to get some resistance pushed back at them.
Resistance towards an aggressor is a noble deed. Resistance is not a choice, it becomes mandatory - to protect life, liberty and freedom from the cruelty of those in power. ``Jihad`` itself is maligned by many - but what is it really? Israeli settlers have taken over palestinian lands and thrown them out of their homes, now when the palestinians resist, they are called ``jihadis / terrorists``. The same goes for Kashmir, or Chechia, or Iraq or Bosnia. Who ever resists the domination and exploitation of the occupier is a labelled a ``terrorist``.
Badmash / ``Agressor`` is never this sweet, nice IT engineer writing ``patents`` for a foreign multinat. (smile ... anyone??). Agressors are politicans, military, police and the mafia that is controlling the occupation - be it in Iraq or Palestine or Kashmir , because for them it is a matter of resources, land grab and colonization.
It is upto Kashmiris to decide what they want to do about the Indian occupation and brutality in the Kashmir valley. But to say that the Kashmir issue is upto Vajpayee or Musharraf or Bush is total nonsense. Kashmiris who have lost brothers and sisters, parents and jobs, and homes and have been beaten, persecuted and molested, -- a single drop of self respect in them will require them to resist and restore their honor.
Let me tell you Indian guys, or for that matter, apologetic pakistani drawing room intellectuals, ``Jihad`` is about self respect - it is not about IT money or dollars or geaostrategy etc etc.
Anyone who has seen exploitation or been through persecution can tell you that Resistance to exploitation is not a matter of choice..... to be or not to be ..... Resistance / Jihad is fundamental to human dignity.
Jamshed Nazar
A decent postion from the pakistani perspective indeeed. However, you have not considered the Kashmiris themselves ... they are the ones who own this land... not us in Islamabad or New Delhi. The solution of Kashmir will come out of the Valley itself, not through the drawing rooms of our capitals. Kashmiris have proved that they have a will and self respect that no one can steal from them. All praise to Kashmiris!!
The latest round of Kashmiri struggle that started in 1989 was a movement for the independance of Kashmir, and it was appropriate at the time with the breakup of the Soviet Union and a new emerging world order. Many other nations were able to revive their national identity. Indian Kashmiris have not achieved this indepence. This is a fact.
However, in the last fifteen years, the atrocities that have been committed against Kashmiris have created an intensity of hate that is not going to be wished away by Islamabad, New Delhi or Washington. Would people in Iraq forget the bombing, the mid night raids, the shoot outs every day? Would people in Palestine forget the brutality of the IDF? How can you really forget?
Yes, some funky engineeer in banglore is happy, but the guy who is beaten up in a lock up in Srinagar is not happy at all!! Rather, he is waiting to get out and pay back.
How many of our so friendly indian friends here in chowk, who brag about Indian IT dollars or patents written for US multinationals, have actually been beaten by police. Any one? kept in lockup and tortured? Any brothers slaughtered ? sisters raped? have you seen massive unemployment? insecurity every day? police raids? ``encounters``?? A goverment - a police force - a military, when given a blanket license to kill, by acts like POTA( Indian anti terrorist act), in fact becomes a vicious monster that can slaughter any of its ``subjects`` to preserve ``national interest``.
Not to say that Pakistani military has been an angel, considering what they did in Bangla Desh. But the fact is, when Indians beat up people in Kashmir, it is national interest, and when Kashmiris blow up some indian military installations - it is subversion, terrorism, jihadism, ``ghuspethiyeh``, cross border infiltration etc etc. But the reality is
who cares really? do the resisters in Iraq care about what Fox News says about them? No Sir
they do not have that kind of time... they are busy planning their next attacks. Likewise, as recent attacks on Musharraf exibit, Kashmiris are determined to take on who ever it is.... Indain parliament or Musharraf .. who ever pushes them to the line... is going to get some resistance pushed back at them.
Resistance towards an aggressor is a noble deed. Resistance is not a choice, it becomes mandatory - to protect life, liberty and freedom from the cruelty of those in power. ``Jihad`` itself is maligned by many - but what is it really? Israeli settlers have taken over palestinian lands and thrown them out of their homes, now when the palestinians resist, they are called ``jihadis / terrorists``. The same goes for Kashmir, or Chechia, or Iraq or Bosnia. Who ever resists the domination and exploitation of the occupier is a labelled a ``terrorist``.
Badmash / ``Agressor`` is never this sweet, nice IT engineer writing ``patents`` for a foreign multinat. (smile ... anyone??). Agressors are politicans, military, police and the mafia that is controlling the occupation - be it in Iraq or Palestine or Kashmir , because for them it is a matter of resources, land grab and colonization.
It is upto Kashmiris to decide what they want to do about the Indian occupation and brutality in the Kashmir valley. But to say that the Kashmir issue is upto Vajpayee or Musharraf or Bush is total nonsense. Kashmiris who have lost brothers and sisters, parents and jobs, and homes and have been beaten, persecuted and molested, -- a single drop of self respect in them will require them to resist and restore their honor.
Let me tell you Indian guys, or for that matter, apologetic pakistani drawing room intellectuals, ``Jihad`` is about self respect - it is not about IT money or dollars or geaostrategy etc etc.
Anyone who has seen exploitation or been through persecution can tell you that Resistance to exploitation is not a matter of choice..... to be or not to be ..... Resistance / Jihad is fundamental to human dignity.
Jamshed Nazar
#150 Posted by gujjubania on January 2, 2004 7:49:23 am
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#149 Posted by anew on January 2, 2004 12:10:41 am
#148 by gujjubania on January 1, 2004 11:31pm PT
Come out of the misleading numbers and percentages. Why 97% of GDP can`t feed millions of Indians proper meal and provide some shelter?
Come out of the misleading numbers and percentages. Why 97% of GDP can`t feed millions of Indians proper meal and provide some shelter?
#148 Posted by mumbaikar on January 1, 2004 11:31:03 pm
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#147 Posted by gujjubania on January 1, 2004 11:31:03 pm
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#146 Posted by rsridhar on January 1, 2004 9:17:51 am
re: Gujjubania`s last post
I have stopped reading his posts addressed to me but read the part which said this would be his last. Good to know. We have all suffered this fool for quite a while. It is time we got some respite.
India is shining! Great! Should i do a tap dance?
Sridhar
I have stopped reading his posts addressed to me but read the part which said this would be his last. Good to know. We have all suffered this fool for quite a while. It is time we got some respite.
India is shining! Great! Should i do a tap dance?
Sridhar
#145 Posted by rsridhar on January 1, 2004 9:17:51 am
re:#137 by hari
The part that Romair will never tell you is this: non-muslim minorities are never going to be a problem for Pak if (theoretically but highly unlikely) Kashmir acceeds to Pakistan. These minorities will be either converted to Islam or eliminated, as happened to the minorities in Pak in 1947.
Sridhar
The part that Romair will never tell you is this: non-muslim minorities are never going to be a problem for Pak if (theoretically but highly unlikely) Kashmir acceeds to Pakistan. These minorities will be either converted to Islam or eliminated, as happened to the minorities in Pak in 1947.
Sridhar
#144 Posted by anew on January 1, 2004 9:17:50 am
#135 by pmishra2 on December 30, 2003 7:03pm PT
#128 anew
Yes, far too many indians are poor. Would you like to help them? Is even 1% of your output sincere? How many thousand rupees or 100s of dollars are you willing to give them?
Please let us know whether your are the usual paki hypocrite or have any genuine interest in helping the less fortunate.
Is my sincere advice of not wasting billions on arms race is not worth billions?
#128 anew
Yes, far too many indians are poor. Would you like to help them? Is even 1% of your output sincere? How many thousand rupees or 100s of dollars are you willing to give them?
Please let us know whether your are the usual paki hypocrite or have any genuine interest in helping the less fortunate.
Is my sincere advice of not wasting billions on arms race is not worth billions?
#143 Posted by anew on January 1, 2004 9:17:50 am
#138 by gujjubania on December 31, 2003 0:27am PT
Listen to your people!
India, among the world`s largest buyers of armaments, plans to spend another Rs 9,000 crore over its already burgeoning Defence budget of Rs 65,000 crore to upgrade its security system. The public should try and prevent this, as India`s real war is from within.
In India, Defence spending rose by 59 per cent in the last decade, at the cost of desperately needed allocations on poverty alleviation and education. The latest UN Human Development Index for 2002 reveals that every third hungry human being is in India, as also the largest number of children who do not go to school. China and even civil war-ravaged Sri Lanka have achieved dramatic improvements. India`s ranking in a basket of 174 countries, has actually deteriorated from 124 to 127 in the latest report.
India`s own latest Census analysed by India Today reveals more ugly facts. Four hundred million Indians exist in claustrophobic one room pigeon holes, every second family lives in temporary shelters, 77 per cent rural families have no bathroom facilities in their ``houses``, 62 per cent have no water supply, 161 million households have no cement flooring, 107 million houses have no power supply and every second Indian family depends on firewood for cooking, 56 years after Independence!
India should improve its defence against these internal threats rather than squander another Rs 9,000 crore on buying more military hardware. In fact the economic indicators for Pakistan, considered a ``failed state`` barely five years ago are improving in contrast. India should wake up at least now.
N. Narasimhan
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/bline/2003/07/28/stories/2003072800330801.htm
Listen to your people!
India, among the world`s largest buyers of armaments, plans to spend another Rs 9,000 crore over its already burgeoning Defence budget of Rs 65,000 crore to upgrade its security system. The public should try and prevent this, as India`s real war is from within.
In India, Defence spending rose by 59 per cent in the last decade, at the cost of desperately needed allocations on poverty alleviation and education. The latest UN Human Development Index for 2002 reveals that every third hungry human being is in India, as also the largest number of children who do not go to school. China and even civil war-ravaged Sri Lanka have achieved dramatic improvements. India`s ranking in a basket of 174 countries, has actually deteriorated from 124 to 127 in the latest report.
India`s own latest Census analysed by India Today reveals more ugly facts. Four hundred million Indians exist in claustrophobic one room pigeon holes, every second family lives in temporary shelters, 77 per cent rural families have no bathroom facilities in their ``houses``, 62 per cent have no water supply, 161 million households have no cement flooring, 107 million houses have no power supply and every second Indian family depends on firewood for cooking, 56 years after Independence!
India should improve its defence against these internal threats rather than squander another Rs 9,000 crore on buying more military hardware. In fact the economic indicators for Pakistan, considered a ``failed state`` barely five years ago are improving in contrast. India should wake up at least now.
N. Narasimhan
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/bline/2003/07/28/stories/2003072800330801.htm
#142 Posted by pmishra2 on December 31, 2003 8:16:40 pm
#141 sunlight
What can you do with bigots like Ispahani? Not much. I grew up in Calcutta where there are over 1 dozen HISTORIC mosques in the heart of the city and at least 100 smaller masjids and dargahs. All are doing well and some have become even tourist attractions.
And this fool thinks that sound of azan will scare indians?
What can you do with bigots like Ispahani? Not much. I grew up in Calcutta where there are over 1 dozen HISTORIC mosques in the heart of the city and at least 100 smaller masjids and dargahs. All are doing well and some have become even tourist attractions.
And this fool thinks that sound of azan will scare indians?
#141 Posted by sunlight on December 31, 2003 7:57:45 am
#131 by Ispahani
``There were few mosques in the middle of nowhere in USA style farm lands.``
Info from the Web on mosques in Bangalore:
http://www.islamicvoice.com/april.2001/initiative.htm
BANGALORE`S centrally located Jama Masjid is not merely the spiritual and religious hub of the city`s Muslims. From the bowels of this magnificent mosque goes out a stirring call for modernizing the Muslim mindset. For over 15 years the Jama Masjid has run a modern English medium school from its cellars, employing Hijab-donning women teachers and imparting basic skills in computers to the Muslim children. It has also become customary for the Masjid to invite and felicitate every new Commissioner of the City Police after a Friday congregation in order to build rapport with the police force.
...
Says Atheeq Ahmed, when he and Pesh-imam Maulana Rashadi started the school in the mosque premises there was a storm of resentment. Ulema were opposed to the idea of imparting modern education inside a mosque. But now the institutions have nearly 3,000 students, 86 teachers, 90 per cent of them women, with a budget running into nearly Rs. 4 lakh a month.
...
Encouraged by the success, the mosque has even set up Jamia-ul-Uloom Residential School and the Industrial Training Institute at Banikoppa, a village 30 kms from Bangalore. The campus sprawls over a 62-heactare lush green area and houses two large hostel complexes, a mosque, a convention hall, school building, mango and coconut orchards and a separate campus for the Industrial training institute.
From the Web site of an architecture firm:
http://www.jaffdesignstudio.com/projects.htm
Jami Mosque, Ulsoor, Bangalore
Details: Friday mosque for Muslim community of central Bangalore. A formal disposition of elements with an emphasis on the entrance gateway focussing Mecca.
Status : Completion 2003
Major mosques in Bangalore (all in central areas) - not listing smaller mosques like the ones in Jayanagar, Koramangala, Commercial Street, etc
http://www.thebangalorecity.com/culture.htm
Basavanagudi Mosque, Basavanagudi
Big Mosque, Miller Road
Jamia Masjid, Silver Jublee Park Road
Sangeen Jamia Masjid, Old Power House Road
``There were few mosques in the middle of nowhere in USA style farm lands.``
Info from the Web on mosques in Bangalore:
http://www.islamicvoice.com/april.2001/initiative.htm
BANGALORE`S centrally located Jama Masjid is not merely the spiritual and religious hub of the city`s Muslims. From the bowels of this magnificent mosque goes out a stirring call for modernizing the Muslim mindset. For over 15 years the Jama Masjid has run a modern English medium school from its cellars, employing Hijab-donning women teachers and imparting basic skills in computers to the Muslim children. It has also become customary for the Masjid to invite and felicitate every new Commissioner of the City Police after a Friday congregation in order to build rapport with the police force.
...
Says Atheeq Ahmed, when he and Pesh-imam Maulana Rashadi started the school in the mosque premises there was a storm of resentment. Ulema were opposed to the idea of imparting modern education inside a mosque. But now the institutions have nearly 3,000 students, 86 teachers, 90 per cent of them women, with a budget running into nearly Rs. 4 lakh a month.
...
Encouraged by the success, the mosque has even set up Jamia-ul-Uloom Residential School and the Industrial Training Institute at Banikoppa, a village 30 kms from Bangalore. The campus sprawls over a 62-heactare lush green area and houses two large hostel complexes, a mosque, a convention hall, school building, mango and coconut orchards and a separate campus for the Industrial training institute.
From the Web site of an architecture firm:
http://www.jaffdesignstudio.com/projects.htm
Jami Mosque, Ulsoor, Bangalore
Details: Friday mosque for Muslim community of central Bangalore. A formal disposition of elements with an emphasis on the entrance gateway focussing Mecca.
Status : Completion 2003
Major mosques in Bangalore (all in central areas) - not listing smaller mosques like the ones in Jayanagar, Koramangala, Commercial Street, etc
http://www.thebangalorecity.com/culture.htm
Basavanagudi Mosque, Basavanagudi
Big Mosque, Miller Road
Jamia Masjid, Silver Jublee Park Road
Sangeen Jamia Masjid, Old Power House Road
#140 Posted by rsaxena on December 31, 2003 7:57:44 am
romair, read this and go jump off a bridge
Outlawed Militants Tried to Kill Musharraf
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: December 31, 2003
ISLAMABAD, Pakistan (AP) -- The suicide bombers who tried to kill Pakistan`s leader last week belonged to an outlawed militant group fighting Indian rule in Kashmir, three intelligence officials told The Associated Press on Wednesday.
The bombers were part of Jaish-e-Mohammed, a group that President Gen. Pervez Musharraf banned in 2002 as part of a drive to purge Pakistan of terrorism, said the officials, who are all intimately involved in the investigation and who spoke on condition of anonymity.
One of the attackers was from Pakistan`s portion of Kashmir, a disputed Himalayan region that is divided between Pakistan and India. The identity of the other attacker has not been announced, although Information Minister Sheikh Rashid Ahmed has said he was a foreigner.
Outlawed Militants Tried to Kill Musharraf
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: December 31, 2003
ISLAMABAD, Pakistan (AP) -- The suicide bombers who tried to kill Pakistan`s leader last week belonged to an outlawed militant group fighting Indian rule in Kashmir, three intelligence officials told The Associated Press on Wednesday.
The bombers were part of Jaish-e-Mohammed, a group that President Gen. Pervez Musharraf banned in 2002 as part of a drive to purge Pakistan of terrorism, said the officials, who are all intimately involved in the investigation and who spoke on condition of anonymity.
One of the attackers was from Pakistan`s portion of Kashmir, a disputed Himalayan region that is divided between Pakistan and India. The identity of the other attacker has not been announced, although Information Minister Sheikh Rashid Ahmed has said he was a foreigner.
#139 Posted by gujjubania on December 31, 2003 12:27:02 am
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#138 Posted by jay on December 31, 2003 12:27:02 am
kashmir options,
India should start talking to pakistan about kashmir, it should start with the shape of the table. The north vietnames talked about the table for 3 years till a tank crahed into the US embassy in hanoi.
In kashmir case, the sign should be the take over of pakistan by the jihadists. This would prompt a bomb securing operation by the uS considering the fact that FBI are crawling all over pakistan and there are 6 airbases in pakistan under US control.
Kashmir should be finalised as part of the reconstruction of pakistan.
India should start talking to pakistan about kashmir, it should start with the shape of the table. The north vietnames talked about the table for 3 years till a tank crahed into the US embassy in hanoi.
In kashmir case, the sign should be the take over of pakistan by the jihadists. This would prompt a bomb securing operation by the uS considering the fact that FBI are crawling all over pakistan and there are 6 airbases in pakistan under US control.
Kashmir should be finalised as part of the reconstruction of pakistan.
#137 Posted by rsridhar on December 30, 2003 10:42:47 pm
re: Economic development of India
IF India is to develop economically, the rise in GDP must reach the masses. And the masses live in rural India. If this does not happen, it would only create pockets of affluence (eg Bangalore and its Yuppie culture) and would not make a dent on India`s poverty. Url:
http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=324113
Excerpts:
``A study in 2001, which Nasscom`s Mr Karnik believes still stands, forecast that by 2008 India`s IT and other service exports would account for a third of the country`s inflows of foreign exchange. However, they would directly employ only 2m people. Thus they could absorb but a fraction even of the 2m or so English-speakers who graduate from university each year. Set that against the vastness of rural India, where 700m people must live their lives without even a whiff of a cappuccino, and the new yuppiedom still seems pretty exotic.``
Sridhar
IF India is to develop economically, the rise in GDP must reach the masses. And the masses live in rural India. If this does not happen, it would only create pockets of affluence (eg Bangalore and its Yuppie culture) and would not make a dent on India`s poverty. Url:
http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=324113
Excerpts:
``A study in 2001, which Nasscom`s Mr Karnik believes still stands, forecast that by 2008 India`s IT and other service exports would account for a third of the country`s inflows of foreign exchange. However, they would directly employ only 2m people. Thus they could absorb but a fraction even of the 2m or so English-speakers who graduate from university each year. Set that against the vastness of rural India, where 700m people must live their lives without even a whiff of a cappuccino, and the new yuppiedom still seems pretty exotic.``
Sridhar
#136 Posted by hari on December 30, 2003 10:42:47 pm
#26, Romair:
One of the flaws of Pakistan demanding Kashmir for itself is this:
Kashmir is also home to NON-MUSLIM NATIVES-BUDDHISTS, PANDITS, SIKHS who do not seek ``islamic dispensation`` under a islamic constitution.
Based on Romair`s ideal situation, then assuming, Kashmir would become part of Pakistan, then all the NON-MUSLIM NATIVES would become `second-class` citizens by design.
Romair would argue that in Pakistan, minorities enjoy rights. May be right. They only have subordinate rights, NOT EQUAL RIGHTS.
Which means, If I am kashmiri non-muslim native, I can NEVER ASPIRE TO BECOME PAKISTAN`S PRIME-MINISTER OR PRESIDENT since that any leadership position is meant only for MUSLIMS. Remember, non-muslims are excluded from these positions by design and that too by the state, not individual.
What if I am a non-muslim kashmiri buddhist and I choose not to pledge allegiance to islamic constitution but wish secular constitution and EQUAL RIGHTS, not subordinate rights??
These are the questions, Romair need to answer.
In India, atleast in paper, everyone has equal rights. I can sue anybody and I don`t have to worry about some federal sharia court behind me.
Romair, when you answer, answer to my questions pertaining to non-muslim status within a pakistani islamic constitutional structure and how you can provide equality of laws and subordinate laws for non-muslim minorities.
If you are going to answer that you can assure that pakistan can provide equal rights to all its citizens, then how come ahmadis are officially being discriminated? and what is pakistan is doing about it in practical terms? Has pakistan changed its passport application which seeks to criminalize ahmadis officially?
One of the flaws of Pakistan demanding Kashmir for itself is this:
Kashmir is also home to NON-MUSLIM NATIVES-BUDDHISTS, PANDITS, SIKHS who do not seek ``islamic dispensation`` under a islamic constitution.
Based on Romair`s ideal situation, then assuming, Kashmir would become part of Pakistan, then all the NON-MUSLIM NATIVES would become `second-class` citizens by design.
Romair would argue that in Pakistan, minorities enjoy rights. May be right. They only have subordinate rights, NOT EQUAL RIGHTS.
Which means, If I am kashmiri non-muslim native, I can NEVER ASPIRE TO BECOME PAKISTAN`S PRIME-MINISTER OR PRESIDENT since that any leadership position is meant only for MUSLIMS. Remember, non-muslims are excluded from these positions by design and that too by the state, not individual.
What if I am a non-muslim kashmiri buddhist and I choose not to pledge allegiance to islamic constitution but wish secular constitution and EQUAL RIGHTS, not subordinate rights??
These are the questions, Romair need to answer.
In India, atleast in paper, everyone has equal rights. I can sue anybody and I don`t have to worry about some federal sharia court behind me.
Romair, when you answer, answer to my questions pertaining to non-muslim status within a pakistani islamic constitutional structure and how you can provide equality of laws and subordinate laws for non-muslim minorities.
If you are going to answer that you can assure that pakistan can provide equal rights to all its citizens, then how come ahmadis are officially being discriminated? and what is pakistan is doing about it in practical terms? Has pakistan changed its passport application which seeks to criminalize ahmadis officially?
#135 Posted by pmishra2 on December 30, 2003 7:03:24 pm
#131 Ispahani
Are you unwell? Based on your writings, I urge you to consult a doctor. Maybe you have stopped taking essential medications? Maybe rsridhar can make a diagnosis for you online.
One comment: all indians are familiar with basics of islam, because muslims are to found everywhere in India. Your hilarious idea that biharis or sikhs would be surprised to hear azan in kashmir shows the depths of your ignorance and prejudice.
#128 anew
Yes, far too many indians are poor. Would you like to help them? Is even 1% of your output sincere? How many thousand rupees or 100s of dollars are you willing to give them?
Please let us know whether your are the usual paki hypocrite or have any genuine interest in helping the less fortunate.
Are you unwell? Based on your writings, I urge you to consult a doctor. Maybe you have stopped taking essential medications? Maybe rsridhar can make a diagnosis for you online.
One comment: all indians are familiar with basics of islam, because muslims are to found everywhere in India. Your hilarious idea that biharis or sikhs would be surprised to hear azan in kashmir shows the depths of your ignorance and prejudice.
#128 anew
Yes, far too many indians are poor. Would you like to help them? Is even 1% of your output sincere? How many thousand rupees or 100s of dollars are you willing to give them?
Please let us know whether your are the usual paki hypocrite or have any genuine interest in helping the less fortunate.
#134 Posted by mumbaikar on December 30, 2003 3:27:59 pm
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#133 Posted by chaltahai on December 30, 2003 3:13:45 pm
The problem is that India and Pakistan are headed in the opposite directions when it comes to HDI and eco stats. India is poised for making lives of it`s citizens for the next 20-30 yrs coninuously better while there is no long term positive prospects for Pakistan. An idiotic policy of islamization of 20 or so years has handcuffed many institutions that Pakistan needs to compete in the modern world. it is in India`s interest as Sridhar has pointed out ot ensure a prosperous and stable Paksitan and vice versa. Kashmir has been the bane of both countries` existence. Over a period of time the Indian negotiating position is only going to strengthen. LOC as permanent boundary is the most realistic of these options. Who knows....20 yrs down the road this option might not be available at all.
#132 Posted by rsridhar on December 30, 2003 8:52:45 am
re: India`s economic development
I, for once, agree with anew. India is still a very poor country and needs to concentrate on economic development for the next 20 years at least. It has to sue for peace with Pak and concentrate on developmental activities (the way china is doing today).
That is why i find it odd that India is trying to become a world power. This is like `` a beggar running for a marathon``. It just ain`t gonna happen. The beggar needs better food, healthcare, clothing and he needs to improve his wellbeing before even attempting a marathon.
Both India and Pak are in the same boat as far as economic problems are concerned. The only diifference is that India has better institutional support and democracy to confront the problems of poverty, something that Pak does not have at present.
Sridhar
I, for once, agree with anew. India is still a very poor country and needs to concentrate on economic development for the next 20 years at least. It has to sue for peace with Pak and concentrate on developmental activities (the way china is doing today).
That is why i find it odd that India is trying to become a world power. This is like `` a beggar running for a marathon``. It just ain`t gonna happen. The beggar needs better food, healthcare, clothing and he needs to improve his wellbeing before even attempting a marathon.
Both India and Pak are in the same boat as far as economic problems are concerned. The only diifference is that India has better institutional support and democracy to confront the problems of poverty, something that Pak does not have at present.
Sridhar
#131 Posted by anew on December 30, 2003 7:42:31 am
#129 by gujjubania on December 29, 2003 10:33pm PT
Oye Mulleh , how hard is it for you to understand simple logic ? Lot of Indians may be poor etc. but the % of Indian population below poverty line is officially 23% - while in Pakistan it is like 36%.
Bania Bhaya
23% Indian population below poverty line = 230 Million (Double the Pakistan Population)
Keep on buying arms while millions of you people are begging, starving and have no water to drink. It makes no difference to India Samraj and Bania hindu lalas. How cruel!
#130 Posted by M.B.Z.Isphahani on December 30, 2003 7:42:31 am
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#129 Posted by gujjubania on December 29, 2003 10:33:54 pm
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#128 Posted by jay on December 29, 2003 7:57:22 pm
Distance to Srinagar,
No pakistani ever mentioned that there are road signs every where in pakistan which sign posts the distance to srinagar. I saw one reprinted in an australian news papare which read, Rawal pindi $$$, then below is Srinagar ####.
This is again part of the k for kafir education, to train the minds of the jihadists that all that they have to do is march that distance.
There is no doubt that when pakis say that kashmir is central issue, it only reflects how all of their lives are petrmeated with this kashmir issue, and links it to their religion, the only cause for jihad and attainment of heaven.
No pakistani ever mentioned that there are road signs every where in pakistan which sign posts the distance to srinagar. I saw one reprinted in an australian news papare which read, Rawal pindi $$$, then below is Srinagar ####.
This is again part of the k for kafir education, to train the minds of the jihadists that all that they have to do is march that distance.
There is no doubt that when pakis say that kashmir is central issue, it only reflects how all of their lives are petrmeated with this kashmir issue, and links it to their religion, the only cause for jihad and attainment of heaven.
#127 Posted by jay on December 29, 2003 7:57:22 pm
Talk prerequsites,
India should insist on a public enquiry into the kargill invasion before any talks on kashmir. The only way to progress peace is to progress the iraquisation. In todays jang there is report that mushy has asserted that there are no pressures to roll back on the bomb which sort of confirms the pressures.
Pakistan should be allowed to follow either the libiyan model or the iraq model. Irq model is more appropriate as there is arequirement to finish of the jihadi- military combine.
May be it is time for mushy to go, having lost an opportunity for pakistan to progress, if only he had supported the taliban, osma would have been dead, jihadis in heaven, and may be 100,000 pak troops with the indians, the reconstruction like in afghanistan would have been in full swing.
Having lost this rapid mode, now it is a slow grind, like iraq, another 10 years of un-publicised isolation.
India should insist on a public enquiry into the kargill invasion before any talks on kashmir. The only way to progress peace is to progress the iraquisation. In todays jang there is report that mushy has asserted that there are no pressures to roll back on the bomb which sort of confirms the pressures.
Pakistan should be allowed to follow either the libiyan model or the iraq model. Irq model is more appropriate as there is arequirement to finish of the jihadi- military combine.
May be it is time for mushy to go, having lost an opportunity for pakistan to progress, if only he had supported the taliban, osma would have been dead, jihadis in heaven, and may be 100,000 pak troops with the indians, the reconstruction like in afghanistan would have been in full swing.
Having lost this rapid mode, now it is a slow grind, like iraq, another 10 years of un-publicised isolation.
#126 Posted by anew on December 29, 2003 7:57:22 pm
#119 gujju bania
India needs to reduce poverty, starvation, begging and prostitution with this Economic Growth rather than buying billion dollars AWACS from Israel. Read this article as a litmus test;
India: Politics of Starvation
By Sudha Ramachandran
Asia Times
November 12, 2002
It was a probe by the People’s Union for Civil Liberties that uncovered the horrifying details of the starvation deaths in the Baran district of Rajasthan. Cultivation has ceased here for the area is reeling under its fifth successive year of acute drought. The local tribals have been reduced to dire poverty. Desperately short of food and driven by hunger, the tribals have turned to eating a wild grass called sama. This grass is hard for humans to digest. As a result, the tribals, especially children, have developed severe digestive ailments, resulting in death.
The starvation deaths in Rajasthan are a replay of a similar tragic story that unfolded in poverty-stricken Kashipur in the eastern state of Orissa last year. There, tribals driven by poverty and unable to buy even the subsidized rice provided through government ration shops were forced to eat fungus-ridden mango kernel.
As the starvation deaths in Kashipur hit the news, the Orissa government claimed that those who died were victims not of starvation but of their tradition of consuming mango kernel and boiled grass even while grain is available. The truth was that the tribals were forced to eat the poisonous kernel for want of an affordable choice.
In Rajasthan, the government is now claiming that the tribals prefer eating wild grass and that the deaths were caused by poor hygiene and disease. Government officials are busy defining starvation to prove that these were not starvation deaths. A starvation death is when there is no food material in the stomach, and government officials shamefully point out that the victims had eaten grass. Whatever the spin, it is hard to deny that the deaths were hunger-related.
The starvation deaths in Kashipur and Baran are just the tip of the iceberg. Hunger is widespread in India. It is said that at least 50 million Indians are on the brink of starvation and over 200 million Indians are underfed.
However, most of India’s poor, such as those who starved to death in Orissa and Rajasthan, cannot afford to buy the grains even at these subsidized rates. Many of them do not possess the Below Poverty Line (BPL) cards that entitle them to purchase at subsidized rates in ration shops. In several cases, the desperately poor have mortgaged their BPL cards to moneylenders or local traders.
Besides, the process of identifying the poor is severely flawed. An article in Outlook magazine points out that in Dharavi, Asia’s largest slum, situated in Mumbai, just 151 families are identified as BPL. Millions of poor across the country are categorized in government records as Above Poverty Line (APL).
``We had asked for special assistance for the drought-hit states, but our pleas went unheeded. We shall now take up the matter in parliament,`` she said, adding that drought was a serious problem that needed the greater attention of the government in New Delhi.
India needs to reduce poverty, starvation, begging and prostitution with this Economic Growth rather than buying billion dollars AWACS from Israel. Read this article as a litmus test;
India: Politics of Starvation
By Sudha Ramachandran
Asia Times
November 12, 2002
It was a probe by the People’s Union for Civil Liberties that uncovered the horrifying details of the starvation deaths in the Baran district of Rajasthan. Cultivation has ceased here for the area is reeling under its fifth successive year of acute drought. The local tribals have been reduced to dire poverty. Desperately short of food and driven by hunger, the tribals have turned to eating a wild grass called sama. This grass is hard for humans to digest. As a result, the tribals, especially children, have developed severe digestive ailments, resulting in death.
The starvation deaths in Rajasthan are a replay of a similar tragic story that unfolded in poverty-stricken Kashipur in the eastern state of Orissa last year. There, tribals driven by poverty and unable to buy even the subsidized rice provided through government ration shops were forced to eat fungus-ridden mango kernel.
As the starvation deaths in Kashipur hit the news, the Orissa government claimed that those who died were victims not of starvation but of their tradition of consuming mango kernel and boiled grass even while grain is available. The truth was that the tribals were forced to eat the poisonous kernel for want of an affordable choice.
In Rajasthan, the government is now claiming that the tribals prefer eating wild grass and that the deaths were caused by poor hygiene and disease. Government officials are busy defining starvation to prove that these were not starvation deaths. A starvation death is when there is no food material in the stomach, and government officials shamefully point out that the victims had eaten grass. Whatever the spin, it is hard to deny that the deaths were hunger-related.
The starvation deaths in Kashipur and Baran are just the tip of the iceberg. Hunger is widespread in India. It is said that at least 50 million Indians are on the brink of starvation and over 200 million Indians are underfed.
However, most of India’s poor, such as those who starved to death in Orissa and Rajasthan, cannot afford to buy the grains even at these subsidized rates. Many of them do not possess the Below Poverty Line (BPL) cards that entitle them to purchase at subsidized rates in ration shops. In several cases, the desperately poor have mortgaged their BPL cards to moneylenders or local traders.
Besides, the process of identifying the poor is severely flawed. An article in Outlook magazine points out that in Dharavi, Asia’s largest slum, situated in Mumbai, just 151 families are identified as BPL. Millions of poor across the country are categorized in government records as Above Poverty Line (APL).
``We had asked for special assistance for the drought-hit states, but our pleas went unheeded. We shall now take up the matter in parliament,`` she said, adding that drought was a serious problem that needed the greater attention of the government in New Delhi.
#125 Posted by veeresh on December 29, 2003 7:14:56 pm
````#107 by M.B.Z.Isphahani on December 28, 2003 2:03pm PT
#81 anew
Bharat with hindi
I could not drive or pay my car toll money in many national high ways .I was
unable to read instruction in hindi( no english anywhere ) .The railway stations
train arrival departure ,platforms ,form filling to buy rail tickets or internal airline
tickets were in hindi only.One security officer insisted that I was from urdu kashmir
state. I spoke to him in hindi .Perhaps my hindi or clothing had more urdu content.
Bhartis , please explain this anti-english phenomenon.If it is a virus will it spread worldwide````
+++
a) I do not know why you were unable to pay car toll money on many national highways, especially since National Highways, be definition, are toll free. However, if you were on expressways or entering/leaving cities, and required to pay toll, then I can assure you, all signage is in a minimum of three languages, in equal font sizes, English, Hindi and local vernacular. The currency note itself has about 19 languages on it, primarily English & Hindi.
b) All Railway forms are bi-lingual, one side English, the other in Hindi. Or alternate. Or you can go up to the supervisor/automated printer and press the required buttons to get a form in whichever language the schedule recognises at many places. The complete PRS at the IR is in English, and is a world standard benchmark, achieving over 11 million cash trnasactions from over 7000 locations everyday. Even the most illiterate of people seem to be able to use it.
c) To buy an air ticket, domestic, you do not need to fill any forms. Pay your money, take your ticket, and off you go. You may be asked to establish your identity, in which case it is advisable to carry some sort of photo-identity with you.
d) Over the last few years, Kashmiri speaking people of Kashmiri origin are specifically available to assist at most airports and railway stations, where it is felt that Kashmiris may be travelling. I don`t understand about your run-in with a security officer and Kashmir/Urdu.
+++
Frankly, I think you just imagined it all up.
#81 anew
Bharat with hindi
I could not drive or pay my car toll money in many national high ways .I was
unable to read instruction in hindi( no english anywhere ) .The railway stations
train arrival departure ,platforms ,form filling to buy rail tickets or internal airline
tickets were in hindi only.One security officer insisted that I was from urdu kashmir
state. I spoke to him in hindi .Perhaps my hindi or clothing had more urdu content.
Bhartis , please explain this anti-english phenomenon.If it is a virus will it spread worldwide````
+++
a) I do not know why you were unable to pay car toll money on many national highways, especially since National Highways, be definition, are toll free. However, if you were on expressways or entering/leaving cities, and required to pay toll, then I can assure you, all signage is in a minimum of three languages, in equal font sizes, English, Hindi and local vernacular. The currency note itself has about 19 languages on it, primarily English & Hindi.
b) All Railway forms are bi-lingual, one side English, the other in Hindi. Or alternate. Or you can go up to the supervisor/automated printer and press the required buttons to get a form in whichever language the schedule recognises at many places. The complete PRS at the IR is in English, and is a world standard benchmark, achieving over 11 million cash trnasactions from over 7000 locations everyday. Even the most illiterate of people seem to be able to use it.
c) To buy an air ticket, domestic, you do not need to fill any forms. Pay your money, take your ticket, and off you go. You may be asked to establish your identity, in which case it is advisable to carry some sort of photo-identity with you.
d) Over the last few years, Kashmiri speaking people of Kashmiri origin are specifically available to assist at most airports and railway stations, where it is felt that Kashmiris may be travelling. I don`t understand about your run-in with a security officer and Kashmir/Urdu.
+++
Frankly, I think you just imagined it all up.
#124 Posted by arjun_m on December 29, 2003 12:28:43 pm
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#123 Posted by arjun_m on December 29, 2003 12:28:43 pm
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#122 Posted by mohar11 on December 29, 2003 11:41:45 am
#120 by Ras
//...unless India makes some kind of dramatic gesture towards the Kashmiris, Pakistan`s offer will be wasted...//
I don`t think any ``dramatic gesture`` is forth-coming. It seems even pakistan doesn`t expect any.
http://in.rediff.com/news/2003/dec/29pak2.htm
Pak says it will not raise Kashmir at SAARC summit
Any case - No gesture would ever satisfy Jihadis and other assorted terrorists. And clearly - Musharraf is lame duck right now - he can`t enforce anything, he can`t even protect himself.
The war has shifted its focus - its between the Jiahdis and their chief patron. India has nothing to do but wait and watch.
//...unless India makes some kind of dramatic gesture towards the Kashmiris, Pakistan`s offer will be wasted...//
I don`t think any ``dramatic gesture`` is forth-coming. It seems even pakistan doesn`t expect any.
http://in.rediff.com/news/2003/dec/29pak2.htm
Pak says it will not raise Kashmir at SAARC summit
Any case - No gesture would ever satisfy Jihadis and other assorted terrorists. And clearly - Musharraf is lame duck right now - he can`t enforce anything, he can`t even protect himself.
The war has shifted its focus - its between the Jiahdis and their chief patron. India has nothing to do but wait and watch.
#121 Posted by Ras on December 29, 2003 11:07:58 am
Let us wait to see where we stand after the SAARC summit.
I usually agree with Dr, Hoodbhoy but until and unless India makes
some kind of dramatic gesture towards the Kashmiris, Pakistan`s
offer will be wasted.
Ras
#120 Posted by mumbaikar on December 29, 2003 11:07:58 am
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#119 Posted by gujjubania on December 29, 2003 11:07:57 am
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#118 Posted by mumbaikar on December 29, 2003 8:38:06 am
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#117 Posted by anew on December 29, 2003 8:36:25 am
#114 by gujjubania on December 28, 2003 11:28pm PT
Mullah Anew , in case you didn`t notice , with every passing year India gets stronger economically and hence militarily. With every passing year , the disparity between India and Pakistan on grows , as India has 12-13 times the economy and 3% higher growth rate. Now realistically , what chance does Pak have of competing with `Tyrant` India ? And what chance do the bechare kashmiris have of getting out of the clutches of the Indian Shaitan ?
India has 12-13 time more people sleeping on road-sides. Read history to know the fate of Rich Tyrants. God comes to the rescue of `bechares`. India or Israel may be getting economically stronger but getting morally and ethically bankrupt. How long Hindu fanatics will harass and terrorize the minorities?
Mullah Anew , in case you didn`t notice , with every passing year India gets stronger economically and hence militarily. With every passing year , the disparity between India and Pakistan on grows , as India has 12-13 times the economy and 3% higher growth rate. Now realistically , what chance does Pak have of competing with `Tyrant` India ? And what chance do the bechare kashmiris have of getting out of the clutches of the Indian Shaitan ?
India has 12-13 time more people sleeping on road-sides. Read history to know the fate of Rich Tyrants. God comes to the rescue of `bechares`. India or Israel may be getting economically stronger but getting morally and ethically bankrupt. How long Hindu fanatics will harass and terrorize the minorities?
#116 Posted by gujjubania on December 29, 2003 7:08:54 am
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#115 Posted by sadna on December 29, 2003 7:08:53 am
The third step first
http://www.rediff.com/news/2003/dec/29guest.htm
``...Could Musharraf tell his nation: `Look, our 56 year struggle is bearing fruit now, the Indian state of Jammau and Kashmir has autonomy.` Pakistan did not fight three-and-a-half wars just to give autonomy to Kashmir.
The irony in Musharraf`s own four steps solution to the Kashmir problem is that step three virtually eliminates all solutions, which may be acceptable to Pakistan...``
http://www.rediff.com/news/2003/dec/29guest.htm
``...Could Musharraf tell his nation: `Look, our 56 year struggle is bearing fruit now, the Indian state of Jammau and Kashmir has autonomy.` Pakistan did not fight three-and-a-half wars just to give autonomy to Kashmir.
The irony in Musharraf`s own four steps solution to the Kashmir problem is that step three virtually eliminates all solutions, which may be acceptable to Pakistan...``
#114 Posted by gujjubania on December 28, 2003 11:28:03 pm
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#113 Posted by anew on December 28, 2003 10:29:28 pm
Kashmiris on both side of LOC have the right to fight for Freedom from the Tyrant India. It is not cross-border terrorism but a War of Independence. Both India and Pakistan should liberate the occupied territories and give Kashmiris the right of self-determination like East Timor. Until then Kashmiris should fight to the last Kashmiri. The tyranny may prolong with the blessings of Coloniast/Zionists but it will not last for ever. Kasmiris want Azadi- Azadi from the Tyrant India and American-agents coward Pakistani leadership.
#112 Posted by veeresh on December 28, 2003 9:01:16 pm
To many of the inter-actors on this, and other, threads at chowk, I would like to just state one simple fact - the roads to Delhi for friends and neighbours do not lead only through Kashmir.
This, by the way, is a slight variation of what Netaji Subhash Chandra Bose said in 1942, to people gathered in Singapore, dreaming of a free sub-Continent.
This, by the way, is a slight variation of what Netaji Subhash Chandra Bose said in 1942, to people gathered in Singapore, dreaming of a free sub-Continent.
#111 Posted by hamidm2 on December 28, 2003 7:07:44 pm
arjun,
..... i think you and romair should get married ................
..... i think you and romair should get married ................
#110 Posted by arjun_m on December 28, 2003 4:39:56 pm
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#109 Posted by sadna on December 28, 2003 4:39:55 pm
mohar11 #108
``And after back-to-back brushes with death - Musharraf has understood the terrorist menace perfectly well, or so one hopes.``
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_27-12-2003_pg7_34
``He [Federal Information Minister Sheikh Rasheed Ahmed] also said the jihadi culture in Pakistan could not be changed and he who denied jihad had no place in Islam, adding “But whether or not it is jihad can only be decided by the State.”
Aaisa hai ki God has subcontracted the doors of heaven to the Pakistani State. ``Get a permit from the Pakistani government, get your 72 houris for eternity``. Simble.
Now imagine God`s subcontractor having to say to permit holders, ``Na na naughty naughty, CEO of God`s subcontractor is off limits, no eternity or houris for you now.`` Not so Simble.
The SAARC summit must not be put off for such a reason, but its clear Vajpayee and other S. Asian heads of government will be putting themselves at considerable personal risk by attending.
``And after back-to-back brushes with death - Musharraf has understood the terrorist menace perfectly well, or so one hopes.``
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_27-12-2003_pg7_34
``He [Federal Information Minister Sheikh Rasheed Ahmed] also said the jihadi culture in Pakistan could not be changed and he who denied jihad had no place in Islam, adding “But whether or not it is jihad can only be decided by the State.”
Aaisa hai ki God has subcontracted the doors of heaven to the Pakistani State. ``Get a permit from the Pakistani government, get your 72 houris for eternity``. Simble.
Now imagine God`s subcontractor having to say to permit holders, ``Na na naughty naughty, CEO of God`s subcontractor is off limits, no eternity or houris for you now.`` Not so Simble.
The SAARC summit must not be put off for such a reason, but its clear Vajpayee and other S. Asian heads of government will be putting themselves at considerable personal risk by attending.
#108 Posted by M.B.Z.Isphahani on December 28, 2003 2:03:35 pm
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#107 Posted by mohar11 on December 28, 2003 2:03:35 pm
#99 by HisExcellency on December 28, 2003 8:32am PT
//... However, this is not a new offer...Musharraf had already hinted at this during Agra. But India chose to ignore the offer then. And I believe India will pretend not to heed it this time either.//
Exactly. The reason is: the the issue of UN resolution is a dead one, except in collective-minds of deluded pakistanis. By ``offering`` to accept the ground realities, Musharraf is NOT doing India any favor. At best - he is preparing pakistanis for the eventuality - waking them up after years of delusional slumber.
So it makes no difference to India, makes no difference on ground. Only thing that makes a difference on ground is the cessation of cross-border terrorism and complete and permanent destruction of their training facilties inside Pakistan.
That is why Vajpayee is not going to bother about Musharraf`s ``breahtakingly bold`` offer. Only thing he is going talk about the the terrorism, cross-border or otherwise.
And after back-to-back brushes with death - Musharraf has understood the terrorist menace perfectly well, or so one hopes. Any case - He is hardly in a position to moralize about ``freedom-fighting`` to deflect the accusations of cross-border terrorism.
//... However, this is not a new offer...Musharraf had already hinted at this during Agra. But India chose to ignore the offer then. And I believe India will pretend not to heed it this time either.//
Exactly. The reason is: the the issue of UN resolution is a dead one, except in collective-minds of deluded pakistanis. By ``offering`` to accept the ground realities, Musharraf is NOT doing India any favor. At best - he is preparing pakistanis for the eventuality - waking them up after years of delusional slumber.
So it makes no difference to India, makes no difference on ground. Only thing that makes a difference on ground is the cessation of cross-border terrorism and complete and permanent destruction of their training facilties inside Pakistan.
That is why Vajpayee is not going to bother about Musharraf`s ``breahtakingly bold`` offer. Only thing he is going talk about the the terrorism, cross-border or otherwise.
And after back-to-back brushes with death - Musharraf has understood the terrorist menace perfectly well, or so one hopes. Any case - He is hardly in a position to moralize about ``freedom-fighting`` to deflect the accusations of cross-border terrorism.
#106 Posted by gujjubania on December 28, 2003 12:26:52 pm
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#105 Posted by Romair on December 28, 2003 10:42:40 am
If India really wants to push the cross-border terrorism line of thinking and argument, it needs to make a few changes in the way it pursues it:
1. Pakistan (and the world) has proposed the monitoring of the LOC by the following agencies, to highlight cross-LOC happenings:
- A UN Observors group
- SAARC forces
- An international military
India has refused to accept any of these offers. It wants to ensure the LOC is not monitored by anyone. In fact, there is actually a UN Obserovors group in Indian Kashmir, yet India does not allow it to go and monitor the LOC. Hence, it becomes very difficult to accept, or at least quantify, the Indian claims of any cross-border activity and its magnitude. Thus India is shooting itself in the foot, by first bringing up cross-border activity, and then itself banning any quantification of it.
This basically leaves it up to India to decide when and how it is happening. It would be much better off allowing neutral bodies to monitor the LOC.
2. The second part is regarding the terrorism. The best people to justify this are the people against whom the terrorism is occuring. In case of Indian Kashmir, both Pakistanis and Indians outwardly show a concern for the Kashmiris. India states that Pakistani terrorists are killing them. And Pakistan states that Indian military forces are killing them. Pakistan calls Indian military forces state terrorists, while it considers the civilian fighters to be freedom fighters. While India considers the opposite.
So the solution would be to ask the Kashmiris whom they consider to be the terrorists and the freedom fighters. And then accept the answer. However, India is completely refusing to ask the Kashmiris, and is just bent upon speaking for them, regarding who they consider to the be the real enemy, i.e. the Indian forces or the civilian fighters.
3. The third part is to allow access to the international human rights organizations into Kashmir to validate India`s claim of terrorism in Kashmir. Obviously, one cannot just accept the claims of the Indian (or Pakistani) govts. on who is at fault in the area.
Yet India has completely banned all HR organizations and international press in the area. Every military action of the US in Iraq is reported and monitored internationally. Every military action of the Israelis in Palestine is reported and monitored internaitonally, since USA and Iraq have not banned any HR or media organization. Yet not a single military action or civilian military action in Kashmir is allowed to be monitored or reported internationally.
Once again, the only statement that comes out is the one by the Indian govt., about what is happening.
Based on this, as someone with ties to Kashmir, I really find it frustrating and bloody-minded of the Indian authorities to, on the one hand hinge any solution to Kashmir on, ``cross-border terrorism`` and on the other hand go out of its way to ensure that the border is not monitored and the terrrorism is not monitored either.
Why is it doing that? What is it hiding? And how can one reach a solution to the problem, when one country is completely unwilling to expose the problem to the rest of the world, and is bent upon forcing everyone to accept its view of the situaiton?
If whatever India states about terrorism in Kashmir is accurate, then I will be the first to state that the Kashmiris would be better off with India. The Kashmiris would themselves vote that way. Why wouldn`t they? But if India and Indians are so sure of their stance on terrorism in Kashmir, why don`t they encourage their own govt. to stop hiding it from the rest of the world?
I have a fear that Vajpayee will now come to Islamabad, repeat the whole cross-border terrorism mantra, will refuse any ideas on allowing neutral agencies to confirm his allegations, and we will be back to square one.
At the very least, well-meaning Indians, who want friendly relations with Pakistan, should encourage their govt. to open up Kashmir to the rest of the world, much like Palestine and Iraq are open, so at least the claims of their own Prime Minister can be validated. Until then, I don`t see how they, themselves, know what is going on in Kashmir, other than what is fed to them by their state media.
Opening up Kashmir is thus the best way for India to solidify its stance, and prove Pakistan`s stance to be wrong.
1. Pakistan (and the world) has proposed the monitoring of the LOC by the following agencies, to highlight cross-LOC happenings:
- A UN Observors group
- SAARC forces
- An international military
India has refused to accept any of these offers. It wants to ensure the LOC is not monitored by anyone. In fact, there is actually a UN Obserovors group in Indian Kashmir, yet India does not allow it to go and monitor the LOC. Hence, it becomes very difficult to accept, or at least quantify, the Indian claims of any cross-border activity and its magnitude. Thus India is shooting itself in the foot, by first bringing up cross-border activity, and then itself banning any quantification of it.
This basically leaves it up to India to decide when and how it is happening. It would be much better off allowing neutral bodies to monitor the LOC.
2. The second part is regarding the terrorism. The best people to justify this are the people against whom the terrorism is occuring. In case of Indian Kashmir, both Pakistanis and Indians outwardly show a concern for the Kashmiris. India states that Pakistani terrorists are killing them. And Pakistan states that Indian military forces are killing them. Pakistan calls Indian military forces state terrorists, while it considers the civilian fighters to be freedom fighters. While India considers the opposite.
So the solution would be to ask the Kashmiris whom they consider to be the terrorists and the freedom fighters. And then accept the answer. However, India is completely refusing to ask the Kashmiris, and is just bent upon speaking for them, regarding who they consider to the be the real enemy, i.e. the Indian forces or the civilian fighters.
3. The third part is to allow access to the international human rights organizations into Kashmir to validate India`s claim of terrorism in Kashmir. Obviously, one cannot just accept the claims of the Indian (or Pakistani) govts. on who is at fault in the area.
Yet India has completely banned all HR organizations and international press in the area. Every military action of the US in Iraq is reported and monitored internationally. Every military action of the Israelis in Palestine is reported and monitored internaitonally, since USA and Iraq have not banned any HR or media organization. Yet not a single military action or civilian military action in Kashmir is allowed to be monitored or reported internationally.
Once again, the only statement that comes out is the one by the Indian govt., about what is happening.
Based on this, as someone with ties to Kashmir, I really find it frustrating and bloody-minded of the Indian authorities to, on the one hand hinge any solution to Kashmir on, ``cross-border terrorism`` and on the other hand go out of its way to ensure that the border is not monitored and the terrrorism is not monitored either.
Why is it doing that? What is it hiding? And how can one reach a solution to the problem, when one country is completely unwilling to expose the problem to the rest of the world, and is bent upon forcing everyone to accept its view of the situaiton?
If whatever India states about terrorism in Kashmir is accurate, then I will be the first to state that the Kashmiris would be better off with India. The Kashmiris would themselves vote that way. Why wouldn`t they? But if India and Indians are so sure of their stance on terrorism in Kashmir, why don`t they encourage their own govt. to stop hiding it from the rest of the world?
I have a fear that Vajpayee will now come to Islamabad, repeat the whole cross-border terrorism mantra, will refuse any ideas on allowing neutral agencies to confirm his allegations, and we will be back to square one.
At the very least, well-meaning Indians, who want friendly relations with Pakistan, should encourage their govt. to open up Kashmir to the rest of the world, much like Palestine and Iraq are open, so at least the claims of their own Prime Minister can be validated. Until then, I don`t see how they, themselves, know what is going on in Kashmir, other than what is fed to them by their state media.
Opening up Kashmir is thus the best way for India to solidify its stance, and prove Pakistan`s stance to be wrong.
#104 Posted by ironman on December 28, 2003 10:13:08 am
#100
Faruk to anew,
``All these human rights violations have been committed by the Pakistani military on the Pakistani people. How come your conscience does not provoke you to strive for the rights of the Pakistani people?``
Faruk saab, please don`t advice anew/Roamir about his job, ok ;)
Faruk to anew,
``All these human rights violations have been committed by the Pakistani military on the Pakistani people. How come your conscience does not provoke you to strive for the rights of the Pakistani people?``
Faruk saab, please don`t advice anew/Roamir about his job, ok ;)
#103 Posted by anew on December 28, 2003 10:12:54 am
#100 by Faruk on December 28, 2003 8:37am PT
Stop watching Zee News and Doordarshan. Beside them only Pakistani corrupt and inefficient politicians make such accusations.
India must end the human right violations in Kashmir and reduce its para-military forces in Kashmir.
Stop watching Zee News and Doordarshan. Beside them only Pakistani corrupt and inefficient politicians make such accusations.
India must end the human right violations in Kashmir and reduce its para-military forces in Kashmir.
#102 Posted by fountainheader on December 28, 2003 10:12:53 am
ROMAIR
firstly, dont try the goebbelian trick of repeating the untruth to make it the truth. pakistan has NOT officially agreed to let the UN resolutions go. it was something musharraf himself half-denied later, along with stout denials by jamali et al. so this ``climbdown`` by musharraf is very dubious, because OFFICIALLY pakistan has not changed its position on kashmir yet. it is still OFFICIALLY not for an independent kashmir, and only wants the 1947 scenario options.
a) kashmir joining pakistan and kashmir staying independent? you claim earnestly that the people of pakistan will accept whatever the kashmiris accept. if so, why has no government of pakistan, at any point of time, agreed to a 3-choice plebiscite? why are all candidates in POK elections made to sign an undertaking supporting the entire kashmir joining to pakistan. a few weeks back, an ex-PM of POK....dont remember his name.......pushed for the chenab formula. now the chenab formula gives to pakistan land beyond all realms of reality. it leaves only part of jammu and whole ladakh with india. yet there was a big hue and cry about this statement by the dude.
why has pakistan been pumping money into POK? just to let it be independent after all? do you really think we all are born yesterday? pakistanis basically want kashmiris to joihn them. they will agree to ``whatever kashmiris want``, only as long as kashmiris keep wanting what pakistanis want. if that wasnt the case, the hurriyat wouldnt have split, and even after the split, the pakistani government would not have supported just one of the two factions.
b) ok i am kinda sick and tired of this junagarh-hyderabad-junagarh-hyderabad-junagarh-hyderabad-junagarh-hyderabad-junagarh-hyderabad-junagarh-hyderabad-junagarh-hyderabad-junagarh-hyderabad whine of pakistan`s. in 1947-48, at any time, did the government of Pakistan, liyaqat, jinnah et al, say that ``junagarh`s fate should be decided by the people of junagarh and not the king.``? or that the fate of hyderabad should be decided in accordance with the wishes of the people of hyderabad and not the nizam? they never said that. the government of pakistan kept drooling at the prospect of junagarh. they were drooling at the thought of the nizam of hyd saying he wante d to join pakistan so that they could have another east pakistan style disjointed territory. pakistan never renounced these 2 territories saying ``they are hindu majority, so we have no interest in them. please give us our kashmir and we will go home.`` in the same way, india was drooling over kashmir.
The only difference is that India managed to ``swallow`` Kashmir, while Pakistan failed miserably to ``swallow`` junagarh and hyd, and lost out kashmir in the process as well. to the victor belong the spoils etc etc.
c) the people of india do not believe that kashmiris want to stay with india. the people of india believe that the kashmiris alone have no business deciding where the territory of J&K goes. I assure you neither the people of India nor the government have any problems with Kashmiris becoming Pakistanis. Let them. However we have serious problems with Kashmiri land becoming pakistani land. the indian people also wonder that if kashmiris wanted just to join pakistan, then why did they not do anything during the 1965 war? see what happened in the 1971 war, the bengalis did not want to be part of pakistan, so they helped the indian army. why did the average kashmiri stay so aloof in 1965, and right through 70s? Why is it that until the 80s or so the azaadi movement was mainly a fringe movement and all these hurriyat leaders were members of the congress? the people of india realise that kashmiris are pissed off with india, because india....and/or indira.......screwed them over. in the 80s, the corruption was rampant, employment zilch, and situation deteriorating. next door, pakistan was doing very well in comparison, thanks to the afghan war dollars and the petro dollars. pakistan seemed a more viable alternative. for all this talk of army atrocities, please remember, that the Indian army moved in to kashmir only AFTER the insurgency started, almost 1-1.5 year AFTER the rubaiyya kidnapping. so the people of india feel that since the india of 20003 is not the india of 1980s, kashmiris have more to gain by staying with india. something that people of punjab and mizoram realised rapidly. once a hotbed of terrorism, punjab is one of the fastest growing states in india. the punjabis realised that staying with india is more profitable. indian people hope that the kashmiris will realise this too. forget the blunders of the 70s and 80s, and move ahead.
because one thing is for sure. plain and simple. we aint giving up an inch of land. we probably will sponsor a one way ticket to pakistan though, and have no problems with kashmiris becoming pakistanis. savvy?
the simple question is, why should india leave kashmir? nations do not really have hearts. britain did not grant us freedom because they melted at the satyagrahi`s plight. they did so because it was unprofitable to keep ruling. why did the soviets pull out of afghanistan? noty because they realised they were oppressing poor afghans, but because there was not much to gain. why did nixon pull out of vietnam? because they suddenly realised charlie was a nice guy? nope, too many body bags made it unviable to stay there. and why did pakistan accept the separation of bangladesh? because they realised the fundas behind bengali nationhood? nope, because sticking on to it wasnt worth it, and wouldve caused enough headaches.
why should india give up kashmir? pakistan has been trying very hard for over 5 decades to make the ``occupation``(there i said it) of kashmir unviable for india. hasnt worked. and until that doesnt happen, india will not budge. ur terrorists/jehadis could make it unviable for the soviets in afghanistan, but not for us.
all these grandiose dialogues about people`s will etc sound nice on petitions and in speeches, but in the hard real world, it is all about cost and benefit.
oh, and romair, is the pope thinking of conferring sainthood on you?
firstly, dont try the goebbelian trick of repeating the untruth to make it the truth. pakistan has NOT officially agreed to let the UN resolutions go. it was something musharraf himself half-denied later, along with stout denials by jamali et al. so this ``climbdown`` by musharraf is very dubious, because OFFICIALLY pakistan has not changed its position on kashmir yet. it is still OFFICIALLY not for an independent kashmir, and only wants the 1947 scenario options.
a) kashmir joining pakistan and kashmir staying independent? you claim earnestly that the people of pakistan will accept whatever the kashmiris accept. if so, why has no government of pakistan, at any point of time, agreed to a 3-choice plebiscite? why are all candidates in POK elections made to sign an undertaking supporting the entire kashmir joining to pakistan. a few weeks back, an ex-PM of POK....dont remember his name.......pushed for the chenab formula. now the chenab formula gives to pakistan land beyond all realms of reality. it leaves only part of jammu and whole ladakh with india. yet there was a big hue and cry about this statement by the dude.
why has pakistan been pumping money into POK? just to let it be independent after all? do you really think we all are born yesterday? pakistanis basically want kashmiris to joihn them. they will agree to ``whatever kashmiris want``, only as long as kashmiris keep wanting what pakistanis want. if that wasnt the case, the hurriyat wouldnt have split, and even after the split, the pakistani government would not have supported just one of the two factions.
b) ok i am kinda sick and tired of this junagarh-hyderabad-junagarh-hyderabad-junagarh-hyderabad-junagarh-hyderabad-junagarh-hyderabad-junagarh-hyderabad-junagarh-hyderabad-junagarh-hyderabad whine of pakistan`s. in 1947-48, at any time, did the government of Pakistan, liyaqat, jinnah et al, say that ``junagarh`s fate should be decided by the people of junagarh and not the king.``? or that the fate of hyderabad should be decided in accordance with the wishes of the people of hyderabad and not the nizam? they never said that. the government of pakistan kept drooling at the prospect of junagarh. they were drooling at the thought of the nizam of hyd saying he wante d to join pakistan so that they could have another east pakistan style disjointed territory. pakistan never renounced these 2 territories saying ``they are hindu majority, so we have no interest in them. please give us our kashmir and we will go home.`` in the same way, india was drooling over kashmir.
The only difference is that India managed to ``swallow`` Kashmir, while Pakistan failed miserably to ``swallow`` junagarh and hyd, and lost out kashmir in the process as well. to the victor belong the spoils etc etc.
c) the people of india do not believe that kashmiris want to stay with india. the people of india believe that the kashmiris alone have no business deciding where the territory of J&K goes. I assure you neither the people of India nor the government have any problems with Kashmiris becoming Pakistanis. Let them. However we have serious problems with Kashmiri land becoming pakistani land. the indian people also wonder that if kashmiris wanted just to join pakistan, then why did they not do anything during the 1965 war? see what happened in the 1971 war, the bengalis did not want to be part of pakistan, so they helped the indian army. why did the average kashmiri stay so aloof in 1965, and right through 70s? Why is it that until the 80s or so the azaadi movement was mainly a fringe movement and all these hurriyat leaders were members of the congress? the people of india realise that kashmiris are pissed off with india, because india....and/or indira.......screwed them over. in the 80s, the corruption was rampant, employment zilch, and situation deteriorating. next door, pakistan was doing very well in comparison, thanks to the afghan war dollars and the petro dollars. pakistan seemed a more viable alternative. for all this talk of army atrocities, please remember, that the Indian army moved in to kashmir only AFTER the insurgency started, almost 1-1.5 year AFTER the rubaiyya kidnapping. so the people of india feel that since the india of 20003 is not the india of 1980s, kashmiris have more to gain by staying with india. something that people of punjab and mizoram realised rapidly. once a hotbed of terrorism, punjab is one of the fastest growing states in india. the punjabis realised that staying with india is more profitable. indian people hope that the kashmiris will realise this too. forget the blunders of the 70s and 80s, and move ahead.
because one thing is for sure. plain and simple. we aint giving up an inch of land. we probably will sponsor a one way ticket to pakistan though, and have no problems with kashmiris becoming pakistanis. savvy?
the simple question is, why should india leave kashmir? nations do not really have hearts. britain did not grant us freedom because they melted at the satyagrahi`s plight. they did so because it was unprofitable to keep ruling. why did the soviets pull out of afghanistan? noty because they realised they were oppressing poor afghans, but because there was not much to gain. why did nixon pull out of vietnam? because they suddenly realised charlie was a nice guy? nope, too many body bags made it unviable to stay there. and why did pakistan accept the separation of bangladesh? because they realised the fundas behind bengali nationhood? nope, because sticking on to it wasnt worth it, and wouldve caused enough headaches.
why should india give up kashmir? pakistan has been trying very hard for over 5 decades to make the ``occupation``(there i said it) of kashmir unviable for india. hasnt worked. and until that doesnt happen, india will not budge. ur terrorists/jehadis could make it unviable for the soviets in afghanistan, but not for us.
all these grandiose dialogues about people`s will etc sound nice on petitions and in speeches, but in the hard real world, it is all about cost and benefit.
oh, and romair, is the pope thinking of conferring sainthood on you?
#101 Posted by fountainheader on December 28, 2003 10:12:53 am
anew, another goebbelian tactic. which constitution are you talking about? the article 1 of the constitution of india says
THE UNION AND ITS TERRITORY
1. Name and territory of the union
(1) India, that is Bharat, shall be a Union of States.
The name of this country is India, as well as Bharat. What you wrote sounds as stupid as saying ``there is no country called germany, germany does not exist. the country is deutscheland.``
Idiot!!!!
THE UNION AND ITS TERRITORY
1. Name and territory of the union
(1) India, that is Bharat, shall be a Union of States.
The name of this country is India, as well as Bharat. What you wrote sounds as stupid as saying ``there is no country called germany, germany does not exist. the country is deutscheland.``
Idiot!!!!
#100 Posted by Faruk on December 28, 2003 8:37:48 am
Re : anew # 98
“The cruelties on defenseless citizens, illegal arrests, custodial killings, arson and blasting of residential houses and using rape as a weapon by the occupation forces are some of the main violations of basic human rights.”
All these human rights violations have been committed by the Pakistani military on the Pakistani people. How come your conscience does not provoke you to strive for the rights of the Pakistani people?
Regards,
Faruk
“The cruelties on defenseless citizens, illegal arrests, custodial killings, arson and blasting of residential houses and using rape as a weapon by the occupation forces are some of the main violations of basic human rights.”
All these human rights violations have been committed by the Pakistani military on the Pakistani people. How come your conscience does not provoke you to strive for the rights of the Pakistani people?
Regards,
Faruk
#99 Posted by HisExcellency on December 28, 2003 8:32:46 am
#94 by dost-mittar
+++
One would like to think that the peace process under way on the subcontinent is for real and not a continuation of scoring diplomatic and other points in the international arena.
+++
I don`t think this offer was made entirely for the purpose of gamesmanship. However, this is not a new offer. Musharraf had already hinted at this during Agra. But India chose to ignore the offer then. And I believe India will pretend not to heed it this time either. My prediction is that Vajpayee will strike a confrontational note at the SAARC conference and will revert to the ``cross-border terrorism mantra`` (despite acknowledging that infiltration stopped completely in November). If Vajpayee proves my prediction wrong, I would join you in celebrations.
+++
One would like to think that the peace process under way on the subcontinent is for real and not a continuation of scoring diplomatic and other points in the international arena.
+++
I don`t think this offer was made entirely for the purpose of gamesmanship. However, this is not a new offer. Musharraf had already hinted at this during Agra. But India chose to ignore the offer then. And I believe India will pretend not to heed it this time either. My prediction is that Vajpayee will strike a confrontational note at the SAARC conference and will revert to the ``cross-border terrorism mantra`` (despite acknowledging that infiltration stopped completely in November). If Vajpayee proves my prediction wrong, I would join you in celebrations.
#98 Posted by anew on December 28, 2003 7:59:35 am
SAARC countries should send their representative team to occupied Kashmir to see for itself the gross violation of human rights by Indian forces.
The lingering issue of Kashmiri posed great danger to peace and tranquility in South Asian region which can be averted only by resolving the dispute in accordance with the wishes of the people of Kashmir.
The cruelties on defenseless citizens, illegal arrests, custodial killings, arson and blasting of residential houses and using rape as a weapon by the occupation forces are some of the main violations of basic human rights.
When the world will start a War against Tyrant India? Is the world conscience already dead?
#97 Posted by jay on December 28, 2003 7:25:24 am
Kashmir and iraquisation,
The fools in delhi are talking about peace with pakistan after the saarc meetings. A generation of p[akistanis have grown up with the jihadic mind set, the attempts on mushy life is an indication of the ultimate fear of the jihadists, PEACE, There is nothing more freightening to a jihadists than peace when the kafirs to be killed vanishes. It is just a matter of time, mushy and all others of pakistan for peace will be wiped out by the jihadists. Thee are 3 million primed products of the madrassas, the UUS exit control system will bottle them in pakistan to create the havoc and they are sure to win. All of this talk of peace by mushy is crap. One should remeber the first speach by mushy, simpla accord is not worth the papaer written on, and kargill shows the solution, a jihadic action.
Iraquisation in which both the military and jihadis are eliminated is the precondition for peace with india. 3 million jihadists, well one has to look at cost effective solutions.
The fools in delhi are talking about peace with pakistan after the saarc meetings. A generation of p[akistanis have grown up with the jihadic mind set, the attempts on mushy life is an indication of the ultimate fear of the jihadists, PEACE, There is nothing more freightening to a jihadists than peace when the kafirs to be killed vanishes. It is just a matter of time, mushy and all others of pakistan for peace will be wiped out by the jihadists. Thee are 3 million primed products of the madrassas, the UUS exit control system will bottle them in pakistan to create the havoc and they are sure to win. All of this talk of peace by mushy is crap. One should remeber the first speach by mushy, simpla accord is not worth the papaer written on, and kargill shows the solution, a jihadic action.
Iraquisation in which both the military and jihadis are eliminated is the precondition for peace with india. 3 million jihadists, well one has to look at cost effective solutions.
#96 Posted by mumbaikar on December 28, 2003 7:25:23 am
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#95 Posted by arjun_m on December 28, 2003 7:25:23 am
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#94 Posted by dost_mittar on December 28, 2003 4:57:28 am
HE:
``If Pakistan can paint India as a hostile and unreasonable neighbour, Pakistan will win back the international goodwill that Pakistan lost due to Kargil in 1999. Regardless of India`s response, Pakistan will reap the diplomatic and economic benefits of Musharraf`s statement.``
I think and hope that you are wrong. One would like to think that the peace process under way on the subcontinent is for real and not a continuation of scoring diplomatic and other points in the international arena. Maybe, our karta-dhartas have realized that, at this point in history, they have to `hang together or hang separately`, to use the words of M.J.Akbar.
``If Pakistan can paint India as a hostile and unreasonable neighbour, Pakistan will win back the international goodwill that Pakistan lost due to Kargil in 1999. Regardless of India`s response, Pakistan will reap the diplomatic and economic benefits of Musharraf`s statement.``
I think and hope that you are wrong. One would like to think that the peace process under way on the subcontinent is for real and not a continuation of scoring diplomatic and other points in the international arena. Maybe, our karta-dhartas have realized that, at this point in history, they have to `hang together or hang separately`, to use the words of M.J.Akbar.
#93 Posted by arjun_m on December 27, 2003 11:52:04 pm
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#92 Posted by arjun_m on December 27, 2003 11:52:04 pm
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#91 Posted by HisExcellency on December 27, 2003 11:52:04 pm
#88 by pmishra2
+++
They are going to come running (ooops, but almost no airlines fly to pakistan :-) and shake Pervez`s hand
+++
FYI: Lufthansa, British Airways, Gulf Air, Kuwaiti Airlines and Thai Airlines have been operating in Pakistan for over a decade. And BTW, world leaders and businessmen have already shaken Musharraf`s hands... in case you missed out on the headlines on FOX, CNN, and BBC from the last 2 years. Obviously you didn`t think before writing that line.
+++
Grow up and awake from your military-mullah delusion.
+++
See this is what happens when you take too many sleeping pills! You are even having trouble remembering what the topic is and what I actually wrote in my post. FYI, my post is about the diplomatic aspect of dropping demand of UN plebiscite, not about MMA. I suggest you get a good night`s sleep before returning to chowk again. Might help you read better... HEHE
#89 by tahmed32
+++
That has to be the strangest way of winning international goodwill. And there is something more important than international goodwill - that is the goodwill of one`s own conscience
+++
I don`t think a flexible, constructive attitude amounts to ditching the Kashmir issue or defying one`s conscience. Under the present circumstances, Pakistan has taken the right decision. If circumstances change, Pakistan will also change its position. This is just smart politics.
+++
They are going to come running (ooops, but almost no airlines fly to pakistan :-) and shake Pervez`s hand
+++
FYI: Lufthansa, British Airways, Gulf Air, Kuwaiti Airlines and Thai Airlines have been operating in Pakistan for over a decade. And BTW, world leaders and businessmen have already shaken Musharraf`s hands... in case you missed out on the headlines on FOX, CNN, and BBC from the last 2 years. Obviously you didn`t think before writing that line.
+++
Grow up and awake from your military-mullah delusion.
+++
See this is what happens when you take too many sleeping pills! You are even having trouble remembering what the topic is and what I actually wrote in my post. FYI, my post is about the diplomatic aspect of dropping demand of UN plebiscite, not about MMA. I suggest you get a good night`s sleep before returning to chowk again. Might help you read better... HEHE
#89 by tahmed32
+++
That has to be the strangest way of winning international goodwill. And there is something more important than international goodwill - that is the goodwill of one`s own conscience
+++
I don`t think a flexible, constructive attitude amounts to ditching the Kashmir issue or defying one`s conscience. Under the present circumstances, Pakistan has taken the right decision. If circumstances change, Pakistan will also change its position. This is just smart politics.
#90 Posted by arjun_m on December 27, 2003 10:18:53 pm
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#89 Posted by tahmed32 on December 27, 2003 8:46:54 pm
HisExcelency #87 you write ``If Pakistan can paint India as a hostile and unreasonable neighbour, Pakistan will win back the international goodwill that Pakistan lost due to Kargil in 1999. ``
That has to be the strangest way of winning international goodwill. And there is something more important than international goodwill - that is the goodwill of one`s own conscience.
These are two things that we pakistanis need to get through into our heads. If we have any self-respect.
That has to be the strangest way of winning international goodwill. And there is something more important than international goodwill - that is the goodwill of one`s own conscience.
These are two things that we pakistanis need to get through into our heads. If we have any self-respect.
#88 Posted by pmishra2 on December 27, 2003 8:46:53 pm
#87 HisFradulence writes:
[quote]
If Pakistan can paint India as a hostile and unreasonable neighbour, Pakistan will win back the international goodwill that Pakistan lost due to Kargil in 1999.
[end-quote]
That`s right. The whole world is now admiring Pakistan. They are totally impressed with its record in nuclear proliferation, jihadism, extremism, violence and murder. They are going to come running (ooops, but almost no airlines fly to pakistan :-) and shake Pervez`s hand.
Grow up and awake from your military-mullah delusion. Goodwill stems from good acts; and can only come from a nation with a positive mission and attitude. A dictator who one day threatens violence one day, retracts some bizarre claims the next day, is simply a dangerous and threatening figure for the world.
[quote]
If Pakistan can paint India as a hostile and unreasonable neighbour, Pakistan will win back the international goodwill that Pakistan lost due to Kargil in 1999.
[end-quote]
That`s right. The whole world is now admiring Pakistan. They are totally impressed with its record in nuclear proliferation, jihadism, extremism, violence and murder. They are going to come running (ooops, but almost no airlines fly to pakistan :-) and shake Pervez`s hand.
Grow up and awake from your military-mullah delusion. Goodwill stems from good acts; and can only come from a nation with a positive mission and attitude. A dictator who one day threatens violence one day, retracts some bizarre claims the next day, is simply a dangerous and threatening figure for the world.
#87 Posted by HisExcellency on December 27, 2003 5:49:25 pm
re: Pervez Hoodbhoy
IMHO, Musharraf`s offer was meant to steal the thunder from Vajpayee`s peace proposals. In one stroke, this offer has brought Kashmir back to center-stage (where India least wants it) and sent the right signals to investors in US and Europe. If the SAARC summit next month ends up in a deadlock, Pakistan will have scored a major diplomatic victory over India.
If Pakistan can paint India as a hostile and unreasonable neighbour, Pakistan will win back the international goodwill that Pakistan lost due to Kargil in 1999. Regardless of India`s response, Pakistan will reap the diplomatic and economic benefits of Musharraf`s statement.
IMHO, Musharraf`s offer was meant to steal the thunder from Vajpayee`s peace proposals. In one stroke, this offer has brought Kashmir back to center-stage (where India least wants it) and sent the right signals to investors in US and Europe. If the SAARC summit next month ends up in a deadlock, Pakistan will have scored a major diplomatic victory over India.
If Pakistan can paint India as a hostile and unreasonable neighbour, Pakistan will win back the international goodwill that Pakistan lost due to Kargil in 1999. Regardless of India`s response, Pakistan will reap the diplomatic and economic benefits of Musharraf`s statement.
#86 Posted by M.B.Z.Isphahani on December 27, 2003 1:22:01 pm
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#85 Posted by rsridhar on December 27, 2003 1:22:01 pm
re:#81 by anew
1 billion people want to call that area ``Bharat``. You have a problem? As saxena said, get some laxative. After you have done that, grease up and bend over for some action.
BTW, i am from South India. You sound stupid trying to prove that South somehow came to be colonized by North India. Read some history before you talk about India. History written by some authority and not taught in your madrassa.
Sridhar
1 billion people want to call that area ``Bharat``. You have a problem? As saxena said, get some laxative. After you have done that, grease up and bend over for some action.
BTW, i am from South India. You sound stupid trying to prove that South somehow came to be colonized by North India. Read some history before you talk about India. History written by some authority and not taught in your madrassa.
Sridhar
#84 Posted by dost_mittar on December 27, 2003 10:04:27 am
From today`s Tribune:
Plan to redraw Indo-Pak border
M.L. Kak
Jammu, December 26
Among various proposals being mooted for the settlement of the Kashmir issue, the one being under serious consideration in Islamabad and Delhi is the adjustment of border areas.
According to official sources, under the proposed plan, Machel, Keran and Gurez were to be incorporated into Pakistan-occupied Kashmir, thereby enabling Islamabad to have something out of the deal.
The sources said the plan also envisaged internal autonomy to the extent of self rule in the Kashmir valley, autonomous hill councils for Poonch, Rajouri and Doda districts and Union Territory-status for Ladakh region. The Hindu-dominated belts of Jammu, Kathua and Udhampur districts will remain with India according to the plan.
Pakistan-occupied Kashmir will have a fully autonomous government and only its sovereignty will be in the hands of Islamabad as Jammu and Kashmir’s sovereignty will remain in the hands of Delhi.
The arrangement, if materialised, will be followed by the demilitarisation of the areas on either side of the LoC after the border plan is redrawn.
The sources said this proposal and other plans would come up for discussion after the Srinagar-Muzaffarabad road is thrown open for traffic and additional confidence-building measures are undertaken by Delhi and Islamabad.
According to the sources, India will reduce its troops’ deployment on the 19,000 feet high Siachen mountain glacier, where the armies of both countries have remained engaged in intermittent but fierce exchange of fire since 1984, as per the plan.
The border adjustment plan and other proposals will be debated only after Delhi is convinced that Islamabad has stopped aiding cross-border terrorism, the sources said. While the entire exercise aimed at resolving the Kashmir issue, has the support of US agencies Delhi, it may engage Kashmiri separatists in a purposeful dialogue.
Top
Plan to redraw Indo-Pak border
M.L. Kak
Jammu, December 26
Among various proposals being mooted for the settlement of the Kashmir issue, the one being under serious consideration in Islamabad and Delhi is the adjustment of border areas.
According to official sources, under the proposed plan, Machel, Keran and Gurez were to be incorporated into Pakistan-occupied Kashmir, thereby enabling Islamabad to have something out of the deal.
The sources said the plan also envisaged internal autonomy to the extent of self rule in the Kashmir valley, autonomous hill councils for Poonch, Rajouri and Doda districts and Union Territory-status for Ladakh region. The Hindu-dominated belts of Jammu, Kathua and Udhampur districts will remain with India according to the plan.
Pakistan-occupied Kashmir will have a fully autonomous government and only its sovereignty will be in the hands of Islamabad as Jammu and Kashmir’s sovereignty will remain in the hands of Delhi.
The arrangement, if materialised, will be followed by the demilitarisation of the areas on either side of the LoC after the border plan is redrawn.
The sources said this proposal and other plans would come up for discussion after the Srinagar-Muzaffarabad road is thrown open for traffic and additional confidence-building measures are undertaken by Delhi and Islamabad.
According to the sources, India will reduce its troops’ deployment on the 19,000 feet high Siachen mountain glacier, where the armies of both countries have remained engaged in intermittent but fierce exchange of fire since 1984, as per the plan.
The border adjustment plan and other proposals will be debated only after Delhi is convinced that Islamabad has stopped aiding cross-border terrorism, the sources said. While the entire exercise aimed at resolving the Kashmir issue, has the support of US agencies Delhi, it may engage Kashmiri separatists in a purposeful dialogue.
Top
#82 Posted by Faruk on December 27, 2003 9:05:31 am
Re : dost-mittar # 77, 78
I think you are misreading the problem. We can have no solution to the Kashmir issue as long as the Pakistani military is not forced to accept one. The Pakistani military owes its privileged position in the Pakistani society to the Kashmir issue, it will never give up the cash cow willingly. We must accept that Pakistani public opinion and in fact the Pakistani people are at best marginal to the solution.
The Pakistani military has convinced the Pakistani people that they must champion the Kashmir cause and fight for the rights of Kashmir’s whatever that means. But never ask for the same rights for themselves. I think the Pakistani military would rather loose the territory in a conflict and play victim like 1971 than come to a negotiated settlement.
Regards,
Faruk
I think you are misreading the problem. We can have no solution to the Kashmir issue as long as the Pakistani military is not forced to accept one. The Pakistani military owes its privileged position in the Pakistani society to the Kashmir issue, it will never give up the cash cow willingly. We must accept that Pakistani public opinion and in fact the Pakistani people are at best marginal to the solution.
The Pakistani military has convinced the Pakistani people that they must champion the Kashmir cause and fight for the rights of Kashmir’s whatever that means. But never ask for the same rights for themselves. I think the Pakistani military would rather loose the territory in a conflict and play victim like 1971 than come to a negotiated settlement.
Regards,
Faruk
#81 Posted by anew on December 27, 2003 7:35:37 am
Legally and constitutionally, no country with the name of ``INDIA`` exists as according to the Constitution (adopted on January 26, 1951), the official and constitutional name is ``BAHRAT`` which was actually a `` Utopian `` Hindu religious state in early history of this religion exactly same as `` Israel`` a Jewish state that came into existence after the disintegration of Solomon Kingdom. The other Sister State was Yahudia. The so- called
`` Indian `` citizens carry passports which clearly describe it`s the country name as `` Bharat `` in Hindi language. The same situation is with its currency, postage stamps, postage seals, and official gazettes.
In the Western and Middle Eastern media the term `` India `` or ``Hind`` had always been referred to geographical location and never to a single nation. India is not and never a politically united nation, but rather a geographical area like Iberian Peninsula where Spain and Portugal are separate countries for countries. Another example is that of Arabian Peninsula where Saudi Arabia, U.A.E, Kuwait Oman, Qatar and two Yemens are separate independent countries. Historically also India was never a united country. Even at the time of Ashoke and during Mughals period, this subcontinent was divided in at least Six independent countries. Of course north India is not only ``India.``
Even at the time of British colonial rule India had many independent States such as Hyderabad, Kashmir, Bhawalpur etc. This is worthy to note that only Hyderabad was much bigger than the combined area of France and Germany. All these countries had their separate currency, railway and postal system.
Lingually, also so called united India is one of the most un-united area. Even now southern languages are completely different from those of northern languages. The southern inhabitants are still not ready to accept ``Hindi`` colonialism. Hindu colonists were very clever and they deceived the whole world by claiming `` Secular Indian Republic ``. If it is really secular India why it`s official name is `` Bharat ``. Simply because it is Hindu State of Bharat, where the only right of non-Hindu is to be killed.
Now question arises why Non-Hindu people should live in this Hindu Bharat. This is very logical that they should have their own independent `` Countries`` and how a Muslim Kashmir can be an integral part of Hindu Bharat.
#80 Posted by anew on December 27, 2003 7:35:36 am
You may have all the great discussion in the world. But, the only SOLUTION of KASHMIR dispute is
give Kashmiris the RIGHT OF SELF DETERMINATION.
#79 Posted by arjun_m on December 27, 2003 7:35:36 am
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#78 Posted by dost_mittar on December 27, 2003 6:01:36 am
Romair:
Let me follow your example of telling Indians why they should accept a compromise now before the cicumstances change in Pakistan`s favour. I dont think that Pakistan will get a better leader than Vajpayee to deal with. He is genuinely a man of peace. He represents the party which is most hostile to Pakistan and, if in opposition, will make it impossible for any govt. to make a compromise. And lastly, he seems to have this miraculous power to get the support of the public opinion behind him even when he makes an abrupt change in policies. So, Pakistan is likely to get more concessions from him than they are likely to get from his successor, whether it is Advani or Sonia.
Let me follow your example of telling Indians why they should accept a compromise now before the cicumstances change in Pakistan`s favour. I dont think that Pakistan will get a better leader than Vajpayee to deal with. He is genuinely a man of peace. He represents the party which is most hostile to Pakistan and, if in opposition, will make it impossible for any govt. to make a compromise. And lastly, he seems to have this miraculous power to get the support of the public opinion behind him even when he makes an abrupt change in policies. So, Pakistan is likely to get more concessions from him than they are likely to get from his successor, whether it is Advani or Sonia.
#77 Posted by dost_mittar on December 27, 2003 5:51:17 am
Romair#74
You have raised several points and many of them have been discussed before, so I would try not to repeat them. But first things first. You say,
``At a personal level, you are living in Canada, enjoying your life, living the way you want. Why not let others live the way they want also. What do you gain, or other Indians gain, by trying to force your wishes on others, so far away? ``
In the immortal words, ``Frankly, my dear, I dont give a damn!``. I have zero emotional capital invested in Kashmir and couldn`t care less if all of it goes to Pakistan. In a way, this makes me a more objective observer than someone who has an emotional stake in that area.
``India has always wanted to convert the LOC into the border. That is what has started the whole conflict. ``
I thought that the whole conflict started when a Kargil-like operation tried to change the status quo in Kashmir in 1947. You obviously have never talked to an Indian nor read the history of the dispute by an Indian, they all blame Nehru for the problem. They all believe that Nehru, against the advice of Patel, went to the UN before the Indian forces had finished the job of clearing Pakistani forces from Kashmir, otherwise there wouldn`t be any problem today. This perception is as solid in India as the perception that Pakistan won the 1965 war is in Pakistan. India went to the UN to get the Pak aggression vacated, not to get the plebiscite, although that`s what she got, thanks to the brilliant performance by Sir Zafarullah Khan. So, when Indians are prepared to accept the status quo, they consider it as a climb down from their maximalist position.
It is clear to me that Kashmir is a territorial issue for the Indians and not one of ascertaining the wishes of Kashmiris. To them, Kashmir is ``theirs`` and there is nothing immoral in keeping what is theirs. And please do not forget that it was not a moral issue for Pakistan either for a long time. You are right is questioning the hypocricy of Indians in applying different criteria in HYderabad and Junagadh than in J & K. But the same was true for Pakistan until the 1960s, it too used conflicting criteria to lay claims on all these territories.
While I dont care where Kashmir g
You have raised several points and many of them have been discussed before, so I would try not to repeat them. But first things first. You say,
``At a personal level, you are living in Canada, enjoying your life, living the way you want. Why not let others live the way they want also. What do you gain, or other Indians gain, by trying to force your wishes on others, so far away? ``
In the immortal words, ``Frankly, my dear, I dont give a damn!``. I have zero emotional capital invested in Kashmir and couldn`t care less if all of it goes to Pakistan. In a way, this makes me a more objective observer than someone who has an emotional stake in that area.
``India has always wanted to convert the LOC into the border. That is what has started the whole conflict. ``
I thought that the whole conflict started when a Kargil-like operation tried to change the status quo in Kashmir in 1947. You obviously have never talked to an Indian nor read the history of the dispute by an Indian, they all blame Nehru for the problem. They all believe that Nehru, against the advice of Patel, went to the UN before the Indian forces had finished the job of clearing Pakistani forces from Kashmir, otherwise there wouldn`t be any problem today. This perception is as solid in India as the perception that Pakistan won the 1965 war is in Pakistan. India went to the UN to get the Pak aggression vacated, not to get the plebiscite, although that`s what she got, thanks to the brilliant performance by Sir Zafarullah Khan. So, when Indians are prepared to accept the status quo, they consider it as a climb down from their maximalist position.
It is clear to me that Kashmir is a territorial issue for the Indians and not one of ascertaining the wishes of Kashmiris. To them, Kashmir is ``theirs`` and there is nothing immoral in keeping what is theirs. And please do not forget that it was not a moral issue for Pakistan either for a long time. You are right is questioning the hypocricy of Indians in applying different criteria in HYderabad and Junagadh than in J & K. But the same was true for Pakistan until the 1960s, it too used conflicting criteria to lay claims on all these territories.
While I dont care where Kashmir g