Another Attempt on Musharraf

RE: #281 by arjun_m on January 1, 2004 11:21am PT

on comment #268 by Ras on January 1, 2004 3:54am PT

My dear arjun_m,

that ``horrible`` comment was meant for people like yourself and not

the rest of the Indians and Pakistanis of the Hindu faith, many of whom I admire.


Now please be a good boy and get back the part of Kashmir that India gifted to China

in 1962 before you accuse Pakistan of being too generous with Kashmiri land.

Happy New Year!

Ras

hamid at 294:

There is absolutely no need to distribute laddoos and dance in the streets. Let us be realistic and mindful of the facts and not be emotional, ref. my posts at 288 and 291.

:-)

Musharraf`s Vote of confidance

Once again the Punjabi Parliamentarians, which are in large numbers, have resulted in the success of a uniformed Chief of Army Staff to become a somewhat legal President.

A Punjabi Parliamentarian`s price is low - make his son a Tehsildar or SHO, him an adviser (125 Ministers + advisers in Punjab assembly?), withdraw his murder case and so on.

History repeats itself - response from the other three provincial assemblies was mixed.

Old Congressites -Wali Khan & the Khan Babas of Frientier have again proved that they know something about politics. They did not give vote of confidance to Musharraf.

The Politicians, as an entity, now better stop cribbing that Army Takes over - they themselves lack the courage to remove it.

mohar11:
``Flip whichever way - military rulers have been singularly responsible for the current disastrous and dangerous mess in Pakistan. Under civilian rules, no matter how corrupt, pakistan would never have been in this mess. Now don`t count BB/NS years as ``civlian rule`` - at best they had some executive powers. The real power has always been with Army. ``
I beg to disagree. It was not the military that asked NS to pass the hudood laws; if the coup had not happened, Pakistan would today be a de jure as well as de facto islamic state with NS as its amir-ul-momineen. Nor did the military ask him to arrest Najam Sethi or to lay siege to the supreme court. To give the devil his due, Pakistan today has probably the freeest media at any time in its history.
``Why do you shop in stores that donates money for Jihadis, anyway ??``
...that was a rhetorical statement!

tahmed32:
I never saw the full qaeda. As I had said in my original post, I had simply seen the two pictures from that qaeda in an urdu newspaper.

from Paris -- good news for the Umma -- the French government banned Hijab from school and colleges -- it also banned skull caps and large crosses from schools as well....Chirac told the Muslims -- want to live in France MUST abide by French secular Laws...period.

no sharia nonsense here.....

happy new year

ahmedzai,

.......... now, exactly why should we be distributing ladoos and dancing in the streets?............could you please explain the difference between what zia did and what his successor musharraf has just done?........... isn`t it the same old story with the army firmly in power, a fat feudal as the puppet prime minister and everybody else running around trying to pick up the scraps that fall off the table at the ghq? ..................... the only difference this time is that musharraf has chosen to make an alliance with people ``who love death more than he loves life`` (khalid bin walid).................

Echoboom #289.
Clearly you did not write what you posted. I just hope that you had shown enough honesty to post the link or at least acknowledged the real writer.
I guess honesty is something beyond defenders of sacred soils(?). I would like to acknowledge that you did coin a new term for me. (Raj-Lover).
I am also amazed, how you reached the conclusion that purported “Raj-Lovers” did not live in neighborhoods where “oppressed” live. If the term Raj-lovers includes me too, then I am from a poor family. For years my father did not have a job so there was no way for me to live anywhere else but in oppressed neighborhoods in the sacred Soil(?). I just hope that something sacred is left in the land. With likes of you on helm, sacred Soils(?)would soon be a forgotten word.
I was born a slave and I am still a slave but I don’t cheat, lie, terrorize and attribute other people’s effort in my name. I congratulate you on being free enough to steal other people’s work, and live for a few crumbs that come your way from the real sacred land.
“Dogs ( and bitches) of the RAJ and RAJ-lovers will not be allowed to roam freely on sacred soils anymore.”-Echoboom
I doubt that anybody is looking forward to roam “freely” with you and others like you around them. Dogs are much more trustworthy than street urchins.

from Paris -- to all my Chowki friends including the staff -- a VERY VERY HAPPY NEW YEAR --

wish y`all a brand NEW President of the United States in 2004......the stinking WARMONGER flushed into the toilet of history.....

happy new year

An article that is a must read:

Why Pakistan still needs Musharraf

By Ahmed Quraishi

``Perennial pessimists, defeatists with inferiority complexes, and those with ulterior motives are three minority classes of Pakistanis that normally have nothing positive to say about Pakistan. To them I say: Cherish Pakistan. ``

Read at Opinion Section of News:

http://www.jang-group.com/thenews/index.html

dost mittar #256 You make several important points in your post:

1. Negative imaging of hindus: I am curious to understand how you came across this qaeda you mentioned in the 1950`s which had the hindu stereotype (man with dhoti and single goot on head). I grew up in Pakistan, have seen numerous urdu qaedas, and dont recall seeing anything like this. And if such a qaeda exists (as I am sure it does) surely it is not representative of the urdu qaedas in pakistan.

I will agree that there is a lot of negative imaging of india in pakistan - and as you correctly point out, it exists in india too. Indeed, if chowk were a guage of the affect such negative imaging has had on the intended audience (people growing up in pakistan or india), it seems clear that india ``wins`` by an innings and ten runs here - there is simply no pakistani poster who is as obsessed (in terms of writing post after post that is geared to slandering pakistanis) with slandering of hindus as jay or arjun or some other posters i could name on chowk.

So, on point 1 all I can say is that i hope that governments on both sides will get some sense in their heads and stop start trying to promote a more positive image of the other country. Extremists will always be there, but they will become increasingly marginalized and irrelevant over time.

2. On pakistani diet - you seem to indicate from your post (although i assume you dont really think so) that pakistanis eat meat as a way to thumb their nose at hindus. Rest assured that pakistanis eat meat because they like it (the same reason many hindus eat meat).

And speaking for myself, i eat mostly vegetables. Gajjar Mooli Zindabad! Masoor ki daal paindabad!! Halva poori hai hai!! Seekh kabab hai hai!! Hope this convinces you of my politically correct credentials. ;-) PS: Admittedly, once in a while I dont mind putting away a hmaburger - although thankfully i havent done that for several weeks now and so presumably escaped the mad cow beef you canadians were so kind as to send over.

3. You are visiting pakistan soon? Wish you an enjoyable visit. Which parts do you plan to visit?

And a happy new year to you and yours.

Tauheed, ref. your various posts:

The Government - MMA agreement is not an alliance between the foes, but an understanding to let the parliament work and therefore, the political system under a ``military dictator`` work in order that stability continues in Pakistan. Qazi`s statement today that JI does not accept him as a President if he continues to wear the uniform clearly points this fact out.

In view of the above, your concerns are totally misplaced.

But I am reall glad that even after being peeved at the situation you are still on a much better mental platform than compared to hossp, Nasah and many extremist Indians like Mohar, arjun_m(usahharf/ahatir), jay the passive gay, peeing mishras, etc. who are overly-focussed on Musharraf as a person, are eagerly looking forward to his killing and are, therefore, showing same mental block as that of Osamas and Zawahris.

thank you hssp:#287


another one--an EYE-OPENER

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2004 – Year of the Slave

You are a slave.


I know that’s not what you want to hear as you hoist your New Year’s champagne, but it is the unpleasant truth that we all face going into 2004.


Movies and public school like to portray slaves as bound by chains and beaten with whips, creating a polarized image of slavery that can be pointed to with the comment, “You are not like that, therefore you are not a slave.” But history shows that slaves have been treated in all manner of ways, some more cruel than others, yet even with the most kind treatment, a slave remains a slave.

Setting aside the stereotyped image of a slave as a bleeding chain-bound wretch, slaves throughout history are often hard to recognize. In some cases, such as the Medieval Serfs, they were held slaves to the rulers by religious belief, and did not see themselves as slaves even though they were treated as such. The favored slaves of Asian potentates wore jewels to make a movie star gasp, yet were still slaves for all their finery and comfort.

So, what is a slave? How do we define a slave? What test do we use to tell if someone is a slave. What makes them different from free people?

Free people can say “no”. Free people can refuse demands for their money, time, and children. Slaves cannot. There is no freedom without the freedom to say “no”. If someone demands that you do something and you can say “no” and refuse to do it, then you are a free human being. If you can be forced to do something or surrender something that you do not wish to, then you are a slave. No other test need be applied.



When you are forced to surrender half your life’s work to the government in ever-increasing taxes, then you are a slave. Throughout history, slaves were expected to perform the work needed for their own upkeep, then perform additional work for the rulers. For Roman slaves, the ratio of work-for-self versus work-for-rulers was about 50-50. The same ratio applied to Medieval Serfs, and even to the slaves of the American south. And, when you add up all the overt taxes, covert fees, tariffs, excises, plus the increased price you pay for products to pay the taxes of the companies that make those products, you will find that Americans are at that same “half-for-self” versus “half-for-rulers” ratio! Can you say “no” to the confiscation of half of your life? Can you even get the masters to maybe reduce the burden by a significant amount? No? Congratulations. You are a slave.



The masters have decided they want wars on anyone living over oil. The idea is that it is better for American corporations to steal the oil they need than to pay for it. Millions of Americans (and millions more around the globe) did not want the war, but the masters started them anyway, by lying to the people. Could you refuse the war? Can you refuse being lied to? No? Congratulations. You are a slave.



The rulers want your children for their future wars. Legislation for a draft is already in Congress. Can you refuse the confiscation of your children? No? Congratulations. You are a slave.



The government has been caught lying over and over again to the people, from who really did 9-11, to the legality of the tax system, to Cheney’s Energy Task Force papers, to Saddam’s WMDs. Americans are the most lied-to people on Earth. Can you refuse to be lied to? Can you punish the liars? No? Congratulations. You are a slave.



Vote fraud is rampant in the nation, and the mandated imposition of audit-less electronic voting systems means that elections will be decided (as Stalin admitted) not by those who vote but by those who count the vote. Can you refuse a dishonest voting process? No? Congratulations. You are a slave.



Just because you cannot see the slave-chains doesn’t mean they are not there. Chains made of steel are obvious, but chains made of beliefs are not always recognized for what they are. Hitler enslaved the German people to war with a belief that Poland was about to invade. LBJ enslaved the American people to war with the belief that Vietnam had attacked the USS Maddox in the Gulf of Tonkin. Poland wasn’t invading. There were no torpedoes in the Gulf of Tonkin, but the slaves, held by invisible chains of beliefs, went to war. Millions died.



In 2003, however, the chains started to become visible. The Constitutional right to freedom of expression was confined to “free-speech” zones. A slave may have an opinion, so long as it is not expressed where it might upset the other slaves. The Constitutional right to an armed populace, the means by which the men who set up a nation of free citizens hoped to keep them free, is under constant attack from those who fear a nation of free citizens, and who will not sleep soundly until we are a nation entirely of slaves. Armed citizens can, after all, say “no” and make it stick. That was why there was a Second Amendment, to allow the people to say “no” to those who would return them to the slavery they had so recently escaped from. Other Constitutional rights and protections have been set aside. The government can now search through your private records without cause and without warrant, even break into your home and not have to tell you. Simply by declaring a citizen an enemy combatant, the government can now lock up US citizens without a charge and without a lawyer. You can be prevented from traveling simply for having the wrong name. If you purchase too much gold or take home too much cash, or hoard food, the government will take notice. Having a Farmer`s Almanac is grounds for suspicion. Talking about the Constitution is now deemed grounds to suspect a terrorist link. Torture is now espoused as “necessary” to “deal with the crisis”. Were you able to refuse those changes to the Constitution? No? Congratulations. You are a slave.



The government (at all levels) has borrowed trillions of dollars and stuck your kids with the payments. Children not even born will be paying off the bills. To declare the lives of children not yet born, let alone old enough to vote, indentured to the state is slavery most obvious and odious. Can you refuse responsibility for payments on debts the government incurred without your permission? No? Congratulations. You are a slave.



The government has borrowed so much money that it has long ago run out of gold to pledge as collateral on the debts. Starting in Nixon’s administration, natural resources were used as collateral for the mounting debts. Borrow more money, promise a chunk of public lands as collateral. These land pledges were concealed behind “Environmentalism” to disguise the real purpose. Numerous names such as “Wilderness Reserve”, “Wetland”, “Heritage River”, and so forth were used to conceal the true scale of the confiscations. But the end result was the same. Huge tracts of public land containing natural resources were walled away from the public that owned them, mortgaged to the holders of the US Government debt. We are well on our way from being citizens, to being mere tenants. Were you able to refuse having your public lands placed at risk by the US Government to cover loans you never authorized the government to make? No? Congratulations. You are a slave.



Trust funds under government control are being looted, from the Social Security trust fund to Native American trust accounts to Federal Retirement Funds. Congress pays lip service to the looting of Social Security, but considers only more taxes to cover the looted shortfall. Meanwhile, court cases over other looted trust accounts drag on without resolution. Are you able to refuse corrupt and dishonest government? No? Congratulations. You are a slave.



You are a slave because the ruling class can do what they want, take what they want, and you cannot refuse. You may have freedom to decide what TV channel to watch tonight, or just which style car you will drive to your work in, but little power over the rest of your life. Even that home you have worked to pay for over the last decade can be taken from you at a moment’s notice via “eminent domain”. Can you refuse? No? Congratulations. You are a slave.



In October 2001 I wrote that more damage would be done to our nation by those claiming to save us from the terrorists than by any actual terrorist act. Even as Bush claimed that the terrorists hated the US because of our freedoms, he took what few remaining freedoms we had away until we are more watched, more spied on, more limited, more silenced, more taxed, and more enslaved that at any other time in our nation’s history. Not only are we slaves, we are at last starting to see that we have been slaves all along. We did not have rights, because a right cannot be taken away. What we had were indulgences, granted by the masters to the slaves, to be removed when the masters grow fearful of the slaves’ resentment and anger.



I know this is a very depressing article to read on the New Year, but I have watched through 2003 as people I care about lost their homes and businesses, as the labors of a lifetime evaporated in stock market manipulations by corporate crooks. These Americans who had worked hard to achieve the American dream lost it all through no fault of their own. Our schools are broke, hospitals under-staffed, the roads and bridges and rails of the nation are crumbling while billions of dollars are given away to foreign nations, favored cronies, and the ravenous war machine. The priorities of the government that feeds on taxes seems focused everywhere but on those who pay those taxes. And we can’t seem to refuse that either.



I think the state of the nation can be summed up by a simple contrast. Tommy Chong is in jail for selling a pipe, while Ken Lay walks around a free man with the billions he stole from his employees and investors. Any way you slice it, that’s a pretty screwed up situation.



I promised a reader that I would make some predictions for 2004 in this article. I wish I hadn’t because I am hoping I am wrong on most of them.



1. There will be another fake terror attack. The Neocon war agenda cannot move forward without it. Those who hoped Iraq would be the end of the wars are in for a rude shock. The hawks want the entire planet, either directly ruled by the US, or ruled by obedient puppet regimes. Another “attack” is needed.



2. The US will eventually lose their war of conquest of the world. The US does not have enough troops to garrison the planet, and as Hitler learned much too late, merely having superior weapons isn’t going to win a war when you’ve pissed off absolutely everyone else in the world. On a more practical level, sooner or later the US will wind up at war with someone who really DOES have nuclear weapons of mass destruction. That this is the government plan is witnessed by the numerous underground facilities which have been built or upgraded in recent years. You paid for them, but you won’t be allowed in them. Such an attack on the US is small price to pay for those who promote these wars, not for America, but for another nation standing by while its victims are tricked into fighting each other.



3. Minus a war, the US Government will eventually collapse as did the Soviet Union, dragged down by debt and corruption. As the final collapse looms closer, look for the looting of the nation to become even bolder than it is now. The last official act of any government is to loot the nation.



4. I am opposed to violence. I wish it could be avoided but I do believe that this nation is headed towards a collision between the rulers and the ruled. The government fears this as well or we wouldn’t see so much bullet-proof Lexan between us and our “public servants”. I think that the reason we have not seen it yet is that Americans have been conditioned to expect a hero or savior to come and make things right. We know things have gone wrong, but we are waiting for someone else to fix it, Superman, the cavalry riding to the rescue, Spartacus, the Messiah, Batman, What Really Happened, etc. This belief that one should wait quietly for a hero is part of the slavery mechanism, to keep you in your place, rendering unto Caesar, breeding more slaves, waiting for salvation that never comes. However, as history has shown, even the patience of an entire people can run out, and I predict that when the final upheaval comes, it will arrive as suddenly as that which occurred in Romania. In November 1989, Romania seemed stable under the rule of Nicholai Ceausescu. One month later, a sporting event erupted into a spontaneous political protest and on December 25th, Nicholai Ceausescu was tried and sentenced to death. Ceausescu proved that tyrants should not confuse silence with consent. The Romanian people finally realized that nobody was coming to save them, and they had the courage to save themselves. The collapse of the USSR was equally rapid and almost as unexpected. So shall it be in the US.



Like I said above, I hope I am wrong in my forecasts. However it is clear that the US Government is under the control of individuals intent on personal enrichment, or loyalty to a foreign nation above our own, and seeing no reason at all not to continue on their present course. Confrontation seems inevitable.



The founding fathers set up a nation in which government was by the consent of the people. We The People agreed to certain obligations, and the government we allowed to care for our national sovereignty agreed to abide by certain limits set forth in the Constitution. The present government has broken the agreement, discarding the Constitutional limits on their power and authority while at the same time piling more and more obligations onto the people. Were you able to refuse them? No? This more than any of the other reasons is why you have ceased to be a free human being, and are now a slave.



You are a slave. When you live under a government that takes your wealth and your children and lies to you to keep you docile and scares you to keep you obedient, how can it be otherwise?



You are a slave. You can stay that way, or not. It’s that simple. Nobody is coming to save you. There are no heroes, no cavalry riding to the rescue. Whether you and your children will live as slaves or as free human beings is entirely up to you.

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some Pakis
trying to pretend that they are not ``those`` kind of muslims, acting foreign-like, adopting more & manners of SLAVES of the SLAVES, deluding themselves to be educated because they live in colonies, know fashion fads and films of SLAVES. Trying hard to distance themselves from those who flaunt and are proud to be who they are.

It is time they get a clear signal of the events that portend. There is still time to change the way they look walk and talk. they should Move into neighborhoods where the oppressed ones live and try to assimilate or they and their kind will be decimated.

Dogs ( and bitches) of the RAJ and RAJ-lovers will not be allowed to roam freely on sacred soils anymore.

Live or LEAVE.

---

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Hello everybody:

Hamid at # 278:

While BBC`s Zafar Abbas may say anything, the reality is that the PML Q/Musharraf and MMA agreement is a win-win-win situation for the Government, MMA and therefore, for Pakistanis.

1. President Musharraf (i.e. military) will leave the President`s office by the end of this year. If God forbid President Musharraf is killed before that, a new CNC will take over for the military and Senate speaker Soomro will take over the Presidency and run it till a new President is elected by all the houses.

2. The Pakhtoon population of the NWFP and Balochistan will not feel left out on Taliban`s issue by the Government.

3. Pakistan will see political as well as economic stability.

4. The feudals of cult PPP will now form opposition along with nationalist parties of other provinces. Unfortunately, the PPP leaders are already terming MMA and PML Q as non-democratic forces. Recall that they had called PML under Nawaz Sharif as a non-democratic force when the latter had defeated them narrowly in 1990 elections.

I would advise all Chowkies of Pakistani origin to accept the current situation, pray for the stability and prosperity of the country, and weed out petty differences amongst ourselves.

#272 by dost-mittar
//... It is not my case that military rulers have been bad for Pakistan; one could argue that Musharraf is the best Pakistani ruler since...//

Come on, will ya? Flip whichever way - military rulers have been singularly responsible for the current disastrous and dangerous mess in Pakistan. Under civilian rules, no matter how corrupt, pakistan would never have been in this mess. Now don`t count BB/NS years as ``civlian rule`` - at best they had some executive powers. The real power has always been with Army.

And Mushharaf has been the worst ever. He has been duplicitous, power-hungry and missed a real chance to turn pakistan around.

`` and by shooing away the jackals of the ppp and pml-n musharraf, in order to save his own posterior, has strengthened the hands of the bearded vultures who will be picking at pakistan`s carrion in a few years ................ `` (hamidm)

dear tahmed -- considering what Musharrufian Goonda Regime did to Javed Hashmi it`s prudent that BB is staying out of the clutches of Musharraf`s Ruffians.

the Chamelion in Chief Musharraf may have thousands pacts with the Devil MMA but it`s not going to save his posterior --

now that POSTERIOR is in for real WHACKING --

THE HISTORY SAYS -- once you make a pact with the DEVIL -- THE DEVIL wont let you GO -- the case in point is the pact between the US and the `Godful` Jihadis -- against the Godless Russians --

it is a fallacy that Musharraf can unload MMA anytime he chooses -- the fact is that vultures ARE ALREADY on the kill and -- Musharraf IS the Kill --

if he thinks that the Jihadis will spare him because he is now SLEEPING with Qazi Ahmeq and Fuzulur -- let him just go to sleep in THEIR beds and he will sleep in ETERNAL PEACE FOR EVER.........

Musharraf is a marked man........ and the spate of bombings so close to each other means his days may be numbered......