Another Attempt on Musharraf

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rsridhar #359 I am glad you are becoming more optimistic about indo-pak relations. To me the question has always been not if but when. The forces for peace are in my view ultimately bigger than any one man, even musharaff and even vajpayee - these forces i think are as follows:

a. A shift in inter-state relations from one of 19th century style competition to one of cooperation that is unprecedented in history but an imperitive of the emerging global economy. This process of cooperation rather than competition started in europe after WWII, being led by the post-war franco-german rapprochement. It caught on in the americas, with the US becoming what one may call an ``anchor country``. Over the past year, while everyone`s attention was taken up by afghanistan and iraq, China has quietly emreged as the ``anchor country`` in the far east. And by virtue of its 1 billion population and increasing economic dynamism, India is clearly destined to become the anchor in south asia via SAARC, and with a indo-pak rapprochement certainly paving the way for this the way the franco-german rapprochement paved the way for the european union. These are the imperitives of the emerging global economy, and i think vajpayee understands this, and (to my surprise) jamali seems to understand it too per his recent statements. I am not sure if musharaff is emotionally excited by these developments (after all, he has spent 30 years training to fight india, not training to embrace india), but i think he too sees the writing on the wall (with a little help from his US friends no doubt, as well as from his largely US trained economic team).

b. Emergence of democracy in Pakistan. Democracies, as we all know, have historically not gone to war with one another (land disputes a la kashmir are not considered worthy of shedding human blood, and so are resolved or simply put on ice - as in case of the franco-british tension over gibralter which rarely makes headlines). And here again the major force for democratic change - i.e. a growing middle class - is ultimately going to win in pakistan regardless of what the generals want.

So, to my mind, while there may still have ups and downs in pakistan-india relations even after SAARC, the general directions is clear - it is the one we all have caught a glimpse of in the warm manner in which the pakistani and indian leaders have met in islamabad this week. let us hope we dont have any setbacks, but even if they do occur they can only prove temporary given the two tectonic forces i mention that are pushing for peace in south asia. At least these are my two cents on this question. :-)

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re:#348 by tahmed32
Tahmed Sahib,
Perhaps for the first time in many years, i share the enthusiasm of many in Chowk about the possibility of a long-lasting peace in the subcontinent. From what i have been reading and from the general mood prevailing across the spectrum on both sides of the border, the wish for peace seems to have hit a critical mass, something that ABV or Mushy can`t ignore.
I also believe that this SAARC meeting affords a rare opportunity. India is headed by a P.M who is perhaps as popular today as Nehru was in his heydays. By his own admission, this is his last shot at peace. This should tell everyone how eager he is for things to move forward as far as Indo-Pak relations are concerned.
On the other side is Musharraf, the head of Pakistan. He has had close encounters with terrorism recently and knows what is at stake. He also knows that terrorism has to be fought and he has shown willingness to do that even while having to pander to the mullahs from time to time. Though i sometimes doubt his sincereity, i think wisdom is finally catching up with the dictator.
He also realizes that peace with India is a must for economic progress of Pak.
These 2 leaders are in a unique position to go beyond the usual rhetoric and take Indo-Pak relations to new heights. Hope my hope is not belied.
Sridhar

jay #353 the issue i am concerned about in your case is not your views about future of india-pakistan relations - nor did i say anything other than beyond the fact that vajpayee is visiting islamabad nowadays. what i find appalling is your actively trying to fan communal hatreds on chowk. what right do you (or urstruly or anyone else) have to live comfortably in the west while doing what little you can to deny people in south asia the right to a more peaceful and progressive region?

here is some more salt i wish to rub into your wounds:

1. after he had slept soundly in islamabad, vajpayee proposed a poverty alleviation fund to which india would contribute $100 million to be used in SAARC countries other than india. Score: South Asia 1, Jay 0.

2. As you writhe in agony at this, here is another one: March 1 the Indian cricket team visits Pakistan.
Score: South Asia 2, Jay 0.

3. Indian embassy throws dinner for their bosses, all pakistani political parties attend - including the religious parties (who can read the writing on the wall, even if you cannot).
Score: South Asia 3, Jay 0.

You will notice that I am not making any predictions, just keeping score.

Of course there will be ups and downs in the months and perhaps even years ahead. But the logic for peace is so obvious that what is happening in islamabad is a glimpse of the future, not a mere flash in the pan.

gujjubania #352 I referred your post to vajpayee. Here is his reply: ``Baychara bachha hai. kissi ki nahiN sunta. ham nai faysla kiya hai kai gujju mian ko hostel maiN dala jay gaa.``

I told you to shape up or else you would be in trouble. But do you ever listen to cha cha tahmed?? No-o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o.

So pack your bags and get ready to be sent to the hostel so they make a man out of you.

PS: Dada jan Vajpayee bought a T-shirt for you in Islamabad. So better behave or else he`ll give it to Advaniji.

ahmedzai #351 I agree on all three points on PPP. I have one of my own to add:

4. They reneged on their platform of ``roti, kapra aur makaan``. Indeed, they ZAB was never honest about it - poverty was never his goal, power was. This is evidenced by his needlessly aggressive foreign policy which derailed pakistan`s economic performance which had been superb until 1965.

Fazloo has indeed shown far greater maturity and political savvy than his ugly appearance would suggest. I have however no doubt that left to themselves, the religious parties would curb democracy in Pakistan. But lets give credit where credit is due - the religious parties played a constructive role by giving musharaff the legitimacy that musharaff needed (and indeed even vajpayee needed musharaff to have) in order to use the SAARC to start changing the tone of india-pakistan relations.

While we pakistanis have been unlucky in the quality of our leadership, we have been lucky in global and regional trends which have served to provide jobs overseas, and which are now serving to make it obvious to all but the most blind in pakistan that they cant have kashmir. What they can have is something a million times better than kashmir - a friendly, prosperous neighbor of 1 billion people that have demonstrated to even to the most elitist of pakistanis that democracy is indeed the only way to run a country.

``whi;le in lahore ask people about lalaa lajpat roy ( you may not know the name),``

Funny Jay mentions Lala Lajpat Rai. Just last week there was a news item in Daily times about a street in Quetta being named after him.

GujjuBania:

The difference between us and Pakistan is South India? I`ll remember that next time you and the Tambis kill each other over water. ;)

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tahmed 348,

If fantasies had wings, you will be flying to the sun. I am a reaist and all that the talk of peace has taken is a lot shorter than what was at the time of lahore meet. All this talk of composite dialogue was well and truly up and running till the kargill invasion. A man who said that the lahore accord is not worth the paper that is written on is no belever of any agreements. No military man has signed any lasting deals with india, and mushy is no exception, especially now with a significant part of military being jihadised.

If the firing start on the LOC in leass than a year, please join me in bashing the wishfull thinker and fools of delhi. The fools are only in delhi, pakistanis have a plan of jihad and is moving steadily on that path. As I never keep a copy of my post, nor I quote from any earlier ones of any one not available on the front page of chowk, pl do a keep a copy of this. If my sense of realism is proved wrong, I am ready to change, but are you ready to learn.

Dost mitter,

In any case while in pakistan take a few photos of road signs with distance to srinager, may be delhi. Take a few copies of pak textbooks showing indo pak boundaries. Pl say hallo to mamdoo habib and hicks, fellow australians, if you happen to meet them at guantanamo bay. They were also tourists in pakistan.

Tauheed:

I regret this delayed response to one of your posts. My opposition to PPP is based on analysis of its past.

Some follies of PPP:

1. Nationalization of industries by senior Bhutto in 1971 leading to ruining of Pakistani economy.

2. Calling Nawaz Sharif and his party ``Baqiyaat of Zia`` by junior Bhutto in 1988 and subsequent vendetta, leading to a political confrontation that turned 90`s into a lost decade for Pakistan.

3. Keeping PPP a cult group without any tolerance for leadership challenge to BB. In a PTV interview, Ch. Aitezaz stated that once he and Sherpao planned to have a `staged` leadership alternative to BB that would create an impression that PPP was democratic internally. Both of them were subsequently sidelined by BB as a punishment. Ch. Aitezaz decided to continue with the party even after the humiliation. But Sherpao decided to quit as a matter of principle. BB cannot let PPP be internally democratic. Any opposition is undemocratic.

Consequences of jihad,

The madrassas produce generalised jihadis ready to kill for any cause as long as some one assigns the task. This has been rampant in karachi where more than 5000 were killed last year. This has some un-expected consequences, as the following letter shows. There is crowding in the heavens, crowding in the grave yards. Is there any chance that the shaheeds can go heaven with their earthly body, can some one re-read the book to avoid crowding in the graves.


Graveyards



Last week, when a close family member passed away, we had to rush from one graveyard to another in the hope of finding a grave site. The graveyards at Paposh, Sakhi Hassan, Hasan Square and Yasinabad are all full.

However, only after paying an extra few thousand rupees to the grave-digger, an old disused grave was made available to us. Will the city government tell us what is being done for the dead of the city?

AHSAN AHMAD

Karachi

dost mittar #335 I am not sure of this ``stick dance``. Khattack dance is a traditional dance of the pathans (performed by a group of men in a circle, dancing around waving swords swords) in the frontier.

This area you are going to is indeed rich in history. pind dadan khan is close to khewra, but i havent been there. also (and you can see it from the motorway a couple of miles beyond the exit for khewra) there is the historic rohtas fort (16th century, built by humayun) that is also being restored i believe but i think is open to the public (i missed it this time, just saw it from a distance). Chillianwalla (where a major battle involving tens of thousands of sikh vs. brit soldiers took place in 1848 i think) is in the area. i am not sure how well preserved it is. an interesting project that i think could (and probably will one day) be conducted in pakistan is to preserve and recreate some of these ancient battlefields the way they have done with civil war battlefields in the US (with details of the battle provided on site, along with important locations in the battlefield marked out).

the entire area used to be off the beaten track, but the motorway has opened it up. The local joes traditionally provided recruits for the army, given that the area is not very rich agriculturally.

jay: So, you say that dost mittar`s visit to Pakistan is sad for chowk. As usual, you are wrong. It is only you, and the handful of vicious-minded people like you, who would be sad. Normal people would think it is great that indians and pakistanis start taking a more positive interest in their shared heritage across the borders.

And here is some more news that will make you even sadder (you will need to sit down on a chair for this one, so you dont fall down in shock): As i write this post, the prime minister of India is sleeping peacefully in Islamabad.

And now, lie down for some more ``sad`` news (so you dont fall off the chair): it looks quite likely that the entire region is heading in the direction that the europeans took fifty years ago - towards an increasingly free economy across the region.

These are indeed sad days - but only for those like you who sit in the west and do what little you can do to sow the seeds of hatred. Ordinary people in both countries are pleased, and indeed pushing their politicians (as Jamali noted yesterday) to end this stupid confrontation of the past 50 years.