Temporal December 25, 2003
#1 Posted by Naqshbandi on December 25, 2003 12:32:22 pm
If Musharraf goes it will be chaotic for Pakistan....though i do not agree with a lot of his policies he alone is preventing the Wahabi-Deobandi nexus from taking power in Pakistan...i think it was probably al-Qaida extremist terrorists who tried to kill him though...the MMA would not do that as they have just got a good deal with Mushy...
Do you think another General will take over if Mushy falls? As long as a Sunni is in power I don`t mind..
Do you think another General will take over if Mushy falls? As long as a Sunni is in power I don`t mind..
#2 Posted by H-Ikram on December 25, 2003 1:06:34 pm
In politics, even in uncivilized world, killing or attempting to physically eliminate people at the helm -- regardless they get there through ballot or bullet in the first place -- no matter one employs judicial venues or TNT, is utterly abhorrent and unconditionally condemnable.
Therefore, the high intensity bombs that a short while ago wrecked the bridge near 10-Corps Headquarters just moments after Emperor Musharraf`s motorcade crossed it while on its way to Army House from Chaklala airport was a cowardly act and must be denounced without any reservation.
But, at the same time, one cannot avoid noticing some gross inconsistencies regarding official projection of the first episode, and for that reason needs to be examined closely. The latest one, nonetheless, seems to be quite genuine.
For example:
Officially, five sophisticated devices of a type never before seen in Pakistan were used. Containing half a ton of explosives, bombs ripped a section of the bridge seconds after Musharraf’s procession crossed it, throwing debris half a mile from the blast site. Yet, not rapping even the very last vehicle in that long caravan.
Security officials are always in position along the entire length of the emperor’s route from the airport to the army house whenever the emperor treads out of his high security shell. His schedule details and route is never confirmed due to obvious security reasons. Whenever the emperor’s convoy moves from one location to another, all bridges on the way are thoroughly searched well in advance of the regal motorcade’s arrival. In fact, the bridges located on the VVIP routes are always considered highly sensitive and are strictly guarded. Interestingly, the well-informed, high-tech culprits who could penetrate multi layers of security arrangements, identify the convoy the emperor was travelling in among several decoys, still missed him by few seconds.
Official line: Those who had planted the bomb took advantage of inclement weather as it becomes difficult for law enforcement agencies to properly check each and every inch of the VVIP route used by the emperor. The only problem is that the highly sensitive sensors used to detect explosives and/or noses of bomb-detective dogs don’t demand ideal climatic conditions for executing their job.
Moreover, it should be noted that the “attempt” didn’t happen in the remote, rugged and restive tribal areas. The “plotters” somehow managed to plant the bomb less than a kilometre from the headquarters of the Pakistan Army’s strike 10th Corps, right in the middle of military’s nerve centre, swarming with faujis, round the clock. The sophisticated laying of explosives below the culvert would have easily taken at least an hour, yet the terrorist did that without being spotted by anyone in this purely military neighbourhood.
Technically, the large bombs were denoted either through remote-control mechanisms or operated as pre-programmed devices. Musharraf’s itinerary is never publicly disclosed and decoy cars and aeroplanes routinely escort him on all road and air journeys. If remote-controlled, why did the perpetrators wait till the entire regal cavalcade passed the bridge safely. And if time bombs were used, how could they be programmed in advance when due to bad weather not even Musharraf knew his own arrival time.
Likewise, the latest spin of radio-jamming device averting nefarious designs doesn’t sound very plausible either. No such gadget worth its name has the operational range of just few meters. Remember, bombs took off seconds after Musharraf had passed the bridge. Does it seem probable that “terrorists” see the target disappearing and even then proceed on with their original programme – only to expose themselves and their expertise?
Come on. Sorry, if I am little bit suspicious.
It appears that all this is nothing but a yet another pathetic PR gimmick orchestrated by media advisers of the emperor showing how fearlessly he is risking his life fighting terrorists without ever mentioning that his favourite cover – extremists, are none but old and close associates of Pak military establishment. Easily understandable that having witnessed the unceremonious exit of Mr Shevernadze in Georgia and exhuming of Mr Saddam in Iraq, Musharraf is desperate to improve his increasingly dismal score card. Anyhow, one should keep in mind that he is the man who in real life doesn’t dare to face few dozens unarmed unruly legislatures or have spine to address the parliament?
Having said that I wouldn’t deny that there are many people around, in khaki and mufti alike, who would love to see Musharraf depart, politically as well as physically. But this particular scheme however doesn’t seem to be planned by his foes.
Very possible, my apprehensions are nothing more than wild fantasies at best and wishful thinking at worst. Let it be so. Otherwise, it would be a matter of grave concern. A country where supreme commander of the armed forces is not safe and where his enemies have infiltrated so deeply, its security is seriously threatened. Actually, I hope and pray that it is a staged drama as I suspect.
Anyway, at the same time, one must not deny Musharraf a due credit by not observing the huge improvement this incident is reflective of. An ordinary, average Pakistani general would have blown up an airport, if not a big city to demonstrate his value and indispensability. Musharraf let only one old bridge demolish, that’s too without any loss of human life, presumably for constructing a new better one. Instead of appreciating him, some people talk nonsense. Pakistan is moving forward. Mashallah.
PS.
Naqshbhandi, I am an apolitical sunni Pakistani from Punjab. Discussion about assassination attempts on Musharraf aside, disgusting sectarian d*gs like u, so-called thekedars of religion should be dealt with sternly first and foremost. Really hard to decide that is it military or politicians who are wreaking more damage to the country or b@$tards putting stinking titles like Mujaddidis, Qadiris, Jilanis? In any case the latter’s destruction goes much beyond geographical boundaries of Pakistan. For God’s sake spare us with your poison.
Therefore, the high intensity bombs that a short while ago wrecked the bridge near 10-Corps Headquarters just moments after Emperor Musharraf`s motorcade crossed it while on its way to Army House from Chaklala airport was a cowardly act and must be denounced without any reservation.
But, at the same time, one cannot avoid noticing some gross inconsistencies regarding official projection of the first episode, and for that reason needs to be examined closely. The latest one, nonetheless, seems to be quite genuine.
For example:
Officially, five sophisticated devices of a type never before seen in Pakistan were used. Containing half a ton of explosives, bombs ripped a section of the bridge seconds after Musharraf’s procession crossed it, throwing debris half a mile from the blast site. Yet, not rapping even the very last vehicle in that long caravan.
Security officials are always in position along the entire length of the emperor’s route from the airport to the army house whenever the emperor treads out of his high security shell. His schedule details and route is never confirmed due to obvious security reasons. Whenever the emperor’s convoy moves from one location to another, all bridges on the way are thoroughly searched well in advance of the regal motorcade’s arrival. In fact, the bridges located on the VVIP routes are always considered highly sensitive and are strictly guarded. Interestingly, the well-informed, high-tech culprits who could penetrate multi layers of security arrangements, identify the convoy the emperor was travelling in among several decoys, still missed him by few seconds.
Official line: Those who had planted the bomb took advantage of inclement weather as it becomes difficult for law enforcement agencies to properly check each and every inch of the VVIP route used by the emperor. The only problem is that the highly sensitive sensors used to detect explosives and/or noses of bomb-detective dogs don’t demand ideal climatic conditions for executing their job.
Moreover, it should be noted that the “attempt” didn’t happen in the remote, rugged and restive tribal areas. The “plotters” somehow managed to plant the bomb less than a kilometre from the headquarters of the Pakistan Army’s strike 10th Corps, right in the middle of military’s nerve centre, swarming with faujis, round the clock. The sophisticated laying of explosives below the culvert would have easily taken at least an hour, yet the terrorist did that without being spotted by anyone in this purely military neighbourhood.
Technically, the large bombs were denoted either through remote-control mechanisms or operated as pre-programmed devices. Musharraf’s itinerary is never publicly disclosed and decoy cars and aeroplanes routinely escort him on all road and air journeys. If remote-controlled, why did the perpetrators wait till the entire regal cavalcade passed the bridge safely. And if time bombs were used, how could they be programmed in advance when due to bad weather not even Musharraf knew his own arrival time.
Likewise, the latest spin of radio-jamming device averting nefarious designs doesn’t sound very plausible either. No such gadget worth its name has the operational range of just few meters. Remember, bombs took off seconds after Musharraf had passed the bridge. Does it seem probable that “terrorists” see the target disappearing and even then proceed on with their original programme – only to expose themselves and their expertise?
Come on. Sorry, if I am little bit suspicious.
It appears that all this is nothing but a yet another pathetic PR gimmick orchestrated by media advisers of the emperor showing how fearlessly he is risking his life fighting terrorists without ever mentioning that his favourite cover – extremists, are none but old and close associates of Pak military establishment. Easily understandable that having witnessed the unceremonious exit of Mr Shevernadze in Georgia and exhuming of Mr Saddam in Iraq, Musharraf is desperate to improve his increasingly dismal score card. Anyhow, one should keep in mind that he is the man who in real life doesn’t dare to face few dozens unarmed unruly legislatures or have spine to address the parliament?
Having said that I wouldn’t deny that there are many people around, in khaki and mufti alike, who would love to see Musharraf depart, politically as well as physically. But this particular scheme however doesn’t seem to be planned by his foes.
Very possible, my apprehensions are nothing more than wild fantasies at best and wishful thinking at worst. Let it be so. Otherwise, it would be a matter of grave concern. A country where supreme commander of the armed forces is not safe and where his enemies have infiltrated so deeply, its security is seriously threatened. Actually, I hope and pray that it is a staged drama as I suspect.
Anyway, at the same time, one must not deny Musharraf a due credit by not observing the huge improvement this incident is reflective of. An ordinary, average Pakistani general would have blown up an airport, if not a big city to demonstrate his value and indispensability. Musharraf let only one old bridge demolish, that’s too without any loss of human life, presumably for constructing a new better one. Instead of appreciating him, some people talk nonsense. Pakistan is moving forward. Mashallah.
PS.
Naqshbhandi, I am an apolitical sunni Pakistani from Punjab. Discussion about assassination attempts on Musharraf aside, disgusting sectarian d*gs like u, so-called thekedars of religion should be dealt with sternly first and foremost. Really hard to decide that is it military or politicians who are wreaking more damage to the country or b@$tards putting stinking titles like Mujaddidis, Qadiris, Jilanis? In any case the latter’s destruction goes much beyond geographical boundaries of Pakistan. For God’s sake spare us with your poison.
#3 Posted by khamkhwa. on December 25, 2003 1:06:34 pm
[As long as a Sunni is in power I don`t mind..]
...what an asshole....
...what an asshole....
#4 Posted by khamkhwa. on December 25, 2003 1:06:34 pm
...if general aziz is going to take over then i better start growing a sharaii beard and get me some above ankle shalwar-kameez suits and refresh my namaaz too......
#5 Posted by hamidm2 on December 25, 2003 1:09:58 pm
naqshbandi.
``As long as a Sunni is in power I don`t mind``............ what?!!!!!
``As long as a Sunni is in power I don`t mind``............ what?!!!!!
#6 Posted by hamidm2 on December 25, 2003 1:17:57 pm
H-Ikram,
......... here we go again - yet another conspiracy theory !..........
................ between god-crazed fools like naqshbandi and conspiracy theorists like you, we are in deep trouble ............. no wonder we are tha laughing stock of the world
......... here we go again - yet another conspiracy theory !..........
................ between god-crazed fools like naqshbandi and conspiracy theorists like you, we are in deep trouble ............. no wonder we are tha laughing stock of the world
#7 Posted by vertex on December 25, 2003 2:12:41 pm
hamidm2,
No, you too are part of the reason why Pakiland is a laughing stock. There`s just no sense comming from that place, and fence sitters like you are just as comedic to look at. Too many clowns, not enough players...geez...
No, you too are part of the reason why Pakiland is a laughing stock. There`s just no sense comming from that place, and fence sitters like you are just as comedic to look at. Too many clowns, not enough players...geez...
#8 Posted by arjun_m on December 25, 2003 2:12:41 pm
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#9 Posted by chusni on December 25, 2003 2:12:41 pm
from unplugged:
#8 by ali_1 on December 25, 2003 11:00am PT
seems like mush will go the zia way
#11 by chusni on December 25, 2003 11:36am PT
ali mian
aap kee dooor russ nazron nein khoob bhaanp liyaa. meraa zehn bhee kuchh yoon hee soach rahaa hai.
Mushharraf mian ubb choosee hui gandairee bunn chukay hain. amreeka bahadur say mazeed ta` avun ubb unkay ikhtyaar say baahur hochukaa hai aur un say mazeed khidmat naheen lee jaa saktee.
doosree taraf baghlon aur bazoo main baithhay huay vardee-poshon kee raal tapaknay aur dumm hilnay main josh-o-khrosh haii.
Mulk-e azeez say vardee naheen utray gee. Varddee kay ander say aadmee nikaal diyaa jaai gaa. Magar vardee naheen utray gee.
Kyaa misr, indonesia, turkey , libya, tunis, marrakesh, aljazaaer main tum nahin daikhtay.
Yahaan voh muhavizz hain jin kee bundooquon kaa rukh humeisha malik-e makaan hee kee tarf rehtaa hai.
Mushharrraf maraa jaaegaa--magar vardee rahaigee.
Agar vardee bananay valon ko khtam kardiyaa jaaey tubb humm azaadi kaa soach sktay hain. Mgar uss kay liyay kuchh jzbon kee zaroorat hotee hai aur voh vaqt filhaal dooor hai,-- magar kuchh itna dooor bhee naheen.
#8 by ali_1 on December 25, 2003 11:00am PT
seems like mush will go the zia way
#11 by chusni on December 25, 2003 11:36am PT
ali mian
aap kee dooor russ nazron nein khoob bhaanp liyaa. meraa zehn bhee kuchh yoon hee soach rahaa hai.
Mushharraf mian ubb choosee hui gandairee bunn chukay hain. amreeka bahadur say mazeed ta` avun ubb unkay ikhtyaar say baahur hochukaa hai aur un say mazeed khidmat naheen lee jaa saktee.
doosree taraf baghlon aur bazoo main baithhay huay vardee-poshon kee raal tapaknay aur dumm hilnay main josh-o-khrosh haii.
Mulk-e azeez say vardee naheen utray gee. Varddee kay ander say aadmee nikaal diyaa jaai gaa. Magar vardee naheen utray gee.
Kyaa misr, indonesia, turkey , libya, tunis, marrakesh, aljazaaer main tum nahin daikhtay.
Yahaan voh muhavizz hain jin kee bundooquon kaa rukh humeisha malik-e makaan hee kee tarf rehtaa hai.
Mushharrraf maraa jaaegaa--magar vardee rahaigee.
Agar vardee bananay valon ko khtam kardiyaa jaaey tubb humm azaadi kaa soach sktay hain. Mgar uss kay liyay kuchh jzbon kee zaroorat hotee hai aur voh vaqt filhaal dooor hai,-- magar kuchh itna dooor bhee naheen.
#10 Posted by Urstruly on December 25, 2003 2:23:09 pm
I think at present there are only two political leaders in the world who are empowered by their own people to have authority to eliminate by assassination any political leader around the globe - Bush & Osama. Of course it is a bipolar world, revolving around this axis of evil.
#11 Posted by dullabhatti on December 25, 2003 2:27:16 pm
Some people ask why Muslims don`t revolt aginst their tyrant rulers.Here is teh answer in post # 1 below:
``Do you think another General will take over if Mushy falls? As long as a Sunni is in power I don`t mind.. ``
When Mushy came into power one interactor on chowk predicted that he will one day be killed and his dead body dragged through the streets. I almost thought the same back then. But situation has so changed since then that even I secretlywish that Mushy could stay in power for a while...yes he was bad boy...he participated in the strategic depth wet dreams,he vigorously managed the bleed India to thousand cuts plan,he oversaw the Nuclear proliferation to every tin pot dictator in the world.... but at least now he is our boy plus what is the alternative? Alternative is so bleak that even rabbid pak haters won`t wish that on Pakistan. If power goes to mullah brigade - in and out of army - it is guranteed that US will do something to take care of the nuclear assets pakistan have....that is far worse and dangerous than the occasional wish of mullahs getting a good thrashing that I have sometimes.
May be US should strengthen Mushy`s hands some more.....but then that is how US ended up making Saddam because US was afraid of the alternative of Saddam.. may be it is better to face the truth now than years later.
``Do you think another General will take over if Mushy falls? As long as a Sunni is in power I don`t mind.. ``
When Mushy came into power one interactor on chowk predicted that he will one day be killed and his dead body dragged through the streets. I almost thought the same back then. But situation has so changed since then that even I secretlywish that Mushy could stay in power for a while...yes he was bad boy...he participated in the strategic depth wet dreams,he vigorously managed the bleed India to thousand cuts plan,he oversaw the Nuclear proliferation to every tin pot dictator in the world.... but at least now he is our boy plus what is the alternative? Alternative is so bleak that even rabbid pak haters won`t wish that on Pakistan. If power goes to mullah brigade - in and out of army - it is guranteed that US will do something to take care of the nuclear assets pakistan have....that is far worse and dangerous than the occasional wish of mullahs getting a good thrashing that I have sometimes.
May be US should strengthen Mushy`s hands some more.....but then that is how US ended up making Saddam because US was afraid of the alternative of Saddam.. may be it is better to face the truth now than years later.
#12 Posted by vertex on December 25, 2003 2:27:16 pm
Naqshbandi,
``Do you think another General will take over if Mushy falls? As long as a Sunni is in power I don`t mind..``
Now I`m curious, would you prefer a beer-drinking `sunni` to a pious shia? Sorry dude, but Sunni-shia divide is not that important in Pakistani politics...only in retarded terf wars. What Pakland needs is good old fashion leadership.
And it`s not like the ideological divide between Shia and Sunni is deep enough to make a difference in how Pakistan would be (mis)managed...having a sunni leader doesn`t (and shouldn`t) mean that a bunch of sunni clerics call the shots, and vice versa for shias. That`s a novel idea in Islam, if not quite modern. That`s not the bad part, though. It`s just that it`s also a failure (for reference, just look at Iran).
#13 Posted by mumbaikar on December 25, 2003 3:32:10 pm
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#14 Posted by arjun_m on December 25, 2003 3:32:10 pm
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#15 Posted by SameerJB on December 25, 2003 5:04:35 pm
dullabhatti:
The only way, mullahs can come to power is back door with the help of military - particulary Gen. Aziz. Why not support fairness and democracy. I assure you that in a fair elections even tomorrow, mullahs will lose even in NWFP. You must understand the details of the ballgame which brought mullahs to this powerful position. The biggest vote getters would again be PPP and PML (N), both of them as pro-USA as Musharraf.
I also had suspicions about the previous attempt as engineered one and I was not alone. But this one looks genuine though perpetrators and their backers still unknown.
It has been perfectly clear despite his landslide in farcical referendum that at mass level he is not popularly supported. However, not supporting and actually trying to exterminate him are two quite different matters. The finger would be pointed naturally to Al-Qaida but list of his enemies include more than just religious fantics unhappy with suporting US despite his other favors to them prior to 9/11 and during engineered elections.
One thing is very clear. Military stands behind him only as COAS (military professional) but not in domestic political matters.
If Musharraf goes abruptly, constitutionally Mohammad Soomro, president of the senate is supposed to be the acting President and Gen. Yusuf Khan to be the COAS - both are considered weak and Yusuf Khan is going to retire in Spetember next year alongwith Gen. Aziz. Assemblies will be dissolved because PML (Q) would not be able to keep hold of its members who will jump to other parties. Other than that not a big deal. Pakistan is really run by an army of deputy comissioners and assistant comissioners at district level and bureaucracy at the federal and state levels.
#16 Posted by mohar11 on December 25, 2003 7:55:00 pm
#12 by dullabhatti on December 25, 2003 2:27pm PT
//.. what is the alternative?..//
The good old TINA(there is no alternative) fear. Let`s not get into that trap again. Every dictator plays up to this fear to get better hold of power and later turns out be a monster. we have so many examples including Saddam.
In this case atleast, there ARE better alternatives. Given a fair fight, Benazir and/or Sharif would win elections hands down. Mullah power was created by Musharraf himself which in turn played up the TINA factor.
Anycase - Musharraf is a dead man walking. Sooner or later - jihadis are going to get him. I think the world powers-that-be should start having a contigency plan - secure nukes, make sure the control the military establishment is in some reliable hands in short term. Then do a UN supervised fair election with all exiled leaders participating. Defang the military and let the civilian rule take hold in pakistan. Everything will be OK!!
//.. what is the alternative?..//
The good old TINA(there is no alternative) fear. Let`s not get into that trap again. Every dictator plays up to this fear to get better hold of power and later turns out be a monster. we have so many examples including Saddam.
In this case atleast, there ARE better alternatives. Given a fair fight, Benazir and/or Sharif would win elections hands down. Mullah power was created by Musharraf himself which in turn played up the TINA factor.
Anycase - Musharraf is a dead man walking. Sooner or later - jihadis are going to get him. I think the world powers-that-be should start having a contigency plan - secure nukes, make sure the control the military establishment is in some reliable hands in short term. Then do a UN supervised fair election with all exiled leaders participating. Defang the military and let the civilian rule take hold in pakistan. Everything will be OK!!
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