Seducing The Devil

Ref Ras #15

[I have little against Mush personally and ...... he deserves a chance to rectify the mess that the Khakis, the US and the Saudis have created in my country of origin.]

The Saudis and the US are latecomers to the game.

Jinnah threatened to abandon all support for a constitutional partition of India if the British Indian Army wasn`t divided and he didn`t have a Pakistan Army at his command on Aug 15, 1947.

I wouldn`t be surprised to learn that Pakistan was hijacked by its Army on Aug 15, 1947. In fact, I suspect that is the case. Jinnah, for all his talk of ``I will give the orders and my Prime Minister will obey me`` bravado was probably a prisoner of the Pakistan Army till he died.

Ref nazarhayatkhan #16

I don`t think that you need to set clueless idiots like Ali_1 straight on PIA recruitmeent policies.

He makes his assumptions and proceeds to draw conclusions to his liking from them.

WAPDA, Railway and Steel Mill have proved that Armed Force personals have proved better Administrators. The civilians in these posts were corrupt and inefficient. But why our civil officers and executives are not so honest and disciplined?

Musharraf is in power because of Nawaz Sharif fascism. The Army may be always trying to `come back to power` but they can be kept in their shoes if we have honest and competent civil leadership.

The game of one political party losing and other winning is an on-going process. The PPP and PML(N) have to wait for their turn.

MQM is a racial and lingual party and will always be winning from Urban Sindh and in power as long they can fool their voters and Generals that `oratory of Altaf Bhai` is only to spread hatred and keep intact the vote bank. Otherwise `man` does not mean what he says.

There is a lot of similarities between MMA and MMQ. Both will be limited to a certian geographical area. If MMQ has a `anti-Punjab/Army` slogan the MMA will win on `Anti-US/American Agents` slogan, but both will compromise and will make deals with the same after winning. One is racial, the other is so-called religious. Both don`t have any broad-based political agenda.

The Army will be always `in-charge` as long we have leaders like Shujjats, Sharifs, Altafs and Benazirs. We should `cultivate` statesmen not `politicians hungry for power`. Otherwise, Army has `the real power` and will always fill the `vaccum`.

yusuf khan, zindabad!


......... democracy or shamocracy, it doesn`t really matter ..........the mma, mqm, ppp, pppp, pml (a-z) and musharraf are all irrelevant ................... what matters is what Gen Muhammad Yusuf Khan will do ..........

re: Mantolives

Sorry, there was an accounting error on my part. Pakistan is 33 years old and not 23 as specified. My mistake, but the rest holds true

Ciao

re: haroonellahi # 1

There is no subsitute for democracy.

re: hossp # 11

You are right. MMA and MQM will contest each over Sindh, but presently MQM is busy occupying the space left open by PPP.

MMA was elected on the slogan of sharia and one of the caveats of the deal seventeenth amendment deal, was that MMA will not table any bill related to sharia and its implementation in Pakistan. This is bound to create a backlash in the voter constitutency of MMA.

re: Mantolives # 7

Agreed.

A consitutional framework is needed, but Pakistani politics` experience has been through working extra-constutionally and via extra-constitutional means. The 1973 constitution was suspended in 1977, some four years after it came into force in 1973. From 1979 to 1988, it was inoperable and during the period from 1988 to 1999, it was often ignored. Then in 1999 it was suspended again and in 2002, despite all the pretenses, it has not been fully revived.

The constitutions of 1956 and 1960 do not count, because they were meant for a unified Pakistan and those legal documents ceased to exist the day Pakistan fractured into two nation states. On December 16, 1971. The post-December 1971 Pakistan was a new nation and not the nation of Jinnah`s creation and that nation created the 1973 constitution as its first, and hopefully, only constitution. The point is that Pakistan as it exists today, was created on December 16, 1971 and not on August 14, 1947 as wrongly taught in Pakistani history books.

When I suggested that Pakistan is an adminstrative state, the implication was of Pakistan, which existed after December 16, 1971 and not before it. In that sense, Pakistan is only 23 years old and not 56 years old, as claimed. Out of those 23 years, it has been under military rule nearly 15 years (1979-88 and 1999 to present) and the remaining under civilian rule from 1988 to 1999. Within this period, you also have to account for the dismissal of governments and the time period, when Pakistan existed under presidental rule without a civilian government. Remember, from 1971 to 1973, Pakistan was ruled by Z. A. Bhutto as a civilian chief martial law administrator for two years, which brings the years of military rule in Pakistan to 17.

Hence, the argument; Pakistan is an adminstrative run by the fiat of ordinances.

Ciao

Manto:
Welcome back to chowk and to the club of `grasthis`:-)

Am I the only confused one or the only one who sees things clearly?
The way I see it, Musharraf is as much an army dictator today as he was on the day those faujis climbed up the gates in Islamabad, notwithstanding the LFO, the 97% referendum, the manipulated elections and now, the confidence vote. All these are relevant only as long as Musharraf lasts; whenever a truly elected govt. emerges, it is likely to overturn everything done by Musharraf and may even try him for his unconstitutional overthrow of the duly elected government.

F.R. Khan,
I can only say that to a distant observer the PPP and PML(N) position

on the boycott of the 17th amendment is very logical. In that regard IF Musharraf

fails to deliver the goods, Pakistan has a fall back position. So wish him luck and don`t

be too critical (leave that to Romair) of people who have more of a legal foundation to

stand on.

And speaking of Romair from the temporal board below....

#304 by Romair on January 2, 2004 0:25am PT
Ras #268: ``Romair and Tahmed420 are reassuring readers here that things could not
be in better hands.``

How about asking me first, before misquoting me? :-)

I have never said things could not be in better hands. All I have said is that things could be much worse, and they seem to be settling down, more than they were before.

There is a huge difference, between what I stated and your misquotation of it.

``Romair fails to mention that they still vote mostly for the PPP.``

Spoken like a true PPPliya. I admire your loyalty, though I disagree with your logic.
If we use most votes as a rule, then Musharraf won the most votes to become the Presidents yesterday. This does not make the votes legitimate. The votes were cast under an umbrella of force. Hence he still remains a dictator, if you ask me (albiet a more honest and progressive one than other dicatators like BB and NS).``

My response...

Romair, most of the long list of remarks that you have presented could also be stuck on

the Khakis as well (they do retire don`t they?).

You do not need to talk about misquoting either because we are all quite familiar with

your thinking by now. You are the Volumetic Opinion Champion on CHOWK.

For the rest of us who do not have that kind of time let us agree to disagree and move on.


The PPP is currently the only real alternative for Pakistan if Musharraf cannot deliver.

The Khakis occupation of the presidency currently has Washington`s blessing very much

like the old Zia Regime which is mostly responsible for Pakistan`s current mess.

We are fortunate that Mush does not think like Zia and that Washington seems to be in

``Damage Control`` mode in Pakistan AT THE MOMENT.

Pakistanis are walking on eggshells, a sight that many of our indian friends on CHOWK

continue to enjoy.

I have little against Mush personally and as long as he does not assasinate any leaders

that have been elected by non-military methods in Pakistan, he deserves a chance to

rectify the mess that the Khakis, the US and the Saudis have created in my country of

origin.

We will wait and see....

Ali_1 # 7

(does this include the Khakis who have usurped civilian jobs that they don`t deserve... For example, generals running WAPDA and Steel Mills and PAF pilots flying for PIA now?)

There is a clear differentiation here. The duputationists (people thrust into departments) are not welcome. The retired Khakis who go through the normal selection process after applying through an add in the newspapers fall in the normal acceptable category.

A retired General is most welcome to become a President provided he runs normally in a normal election.

(All PAF pilots, who joined PIA, went through the normal applications, tests/examinations process - and were placed junior most in accordance with AirLine seniority. Airlines all over the world take Air Force pilots - some like Turkey, Singapore, Israel etc take only Air Force pilots. In fact PIA pilots Association, of which I am a member, has to be given credit for preventing Air Force pilots steamrolling into PIA without any selection & merit. Presidents like Ghulam Ishaq tried to get his ADC into PIA through back door - he failed!)

Interesting interview of Stephen Cohen on CSPAN December 31, 2003 at:

http://www.c-span.org/homepage.asp?Cat=Series&Code=WJE&ShowVidNum=6&Rot_Cat_CD=WJ&Rot_HT=205&Rot_WD=

Hope that many Pakistanis listen to it.

Ras

Failure, more than politics,

Pakistan is supposed to have a beurocrcy, modelled or rather left behind by the british. This according to all from pakistan comprises professionals in the various ministries, offering considered views of everything.

Now look at recent pak response to indian offers. They wanted to give medical support for rape victims in india, they wanted the kashmiris to have un documents, they wanted india to signa special deal not to cancell overflights with out consultations.

Suddenly all these are gone, there is cease fire to cap it off. The foolf of the pak administration who offered all of the above advice continue to be thre. It is unlikely that mushy dreamed up all of the earlier reddiculuas ideas, it should have come from the pak elites, the ilks of tahmed and romair.
The new one should have come from the FBI and the US agents with gun to the head of mushy. No point in asking, no pakistani will dare to explain the process.

The above example at the highest policy level is a symtom of the deep rooted malice of the pak society, they can think only in terms of hatred, the TNt effect, and some one else has to faorce the change, good that FBI are arpound and the US troops in 6 bases in pakistan.

in search of respectability,

This article by ferzok is another example of pakistanis insatiable attempts to introduce a symbol of respectability of what is happening in pakistan. All of what is written is pure crap, there can be no rhyme or reason in logical terms of what is happening in pakistan, it has to be understood purely in religious and emotional terms, the actions of section of humanity fed on hatred.
Look at the highest level pak govt policy propasals in the last few weeks. Evry one of them were rediculus and changed, eroding any kind of respectability to the pak government, their beurocrats. Pakistanis lack the basic ability to think through anything rationall simply because of the hatred infused education system. One can cleary see that on chowk, tahmed and romair as clear examples of warped thinking.

F.R. Khan’s analysis is pretty much on the mark when he scolds the PPP and the Nawaz group for boycotting the voting on both measures. I would like to point out that both the PPP and the Nawaz group actually gave a tacit support to both unconstitutional measures. If they were against those amendments, they should have voted against them in the assembly. By not voting, they have proved once again that they are as willing to work with the Army as the MMA.
By abstaining, both the PPP and the Nawaz group have left the options open to support the Army in future.
The feudal characters in the PPP and in the Nawaz league are not very far from the PML (Q) in their political ideology. It is matter of time before we will see the membership of the patriot group swell. It seems to me that by putting Javed Hashmi in jail, the army also obtained quiet approval of rest of the Nawaz group in the national assembly.

It’s hard for me understand Mr. Khan`s logic behind “…that MQM has smelled the weakness of PML-N and PPP and is adroitly maneuvering itself to occupy the political space left by these two parties and as a possible leverage to MMA.”

On the contrary, I think the next move the MMA would make would be to ease out MQM from Sindh govt. MQM arguably has no leverage at all, if the MMA is willing to support the govt. in the National assembly and the senate.
There is a history of hate-hate relationship between the Army and the MQM. The Army, reluctantly accepted MQM as a political collaborator, in the first place, when the Army could not find political support from the MMA after the elections last year. With political support now forthcoming from the MMA, MQM holding its own against its sworn enemies in the MMA does not look viable.

“As to MMA, it has lost all sense of legitimacy and will soon face a backlash of its votaries.” – F.R.Khan

No accurate at all!!! MMA voters had no interest whatsoever with LFO or the constitutional changes. So the question of any backlash does not arise. The MMA was not part of the ARD so it only had an ambiguous stand against the LFO during the elections. Pretty much all the parties in the MMA have always had excellent relations with the Army and it was a matter of time for them to go back to where they are comfortable.

Only PPP and PML(N( have proven to be mature political parties in current situation. It was a mistake by PPP to negotiate Musharraf soon after farcical elections. Late Nawabzada Nasrullah Khan rightly played his hand right as president of ARD to pull PPP back into principled democratic party. As hamidm said, there was nothing in it for PPP, PML (N( or democracy to bend according to the wishes of Musharraf and stamp some sort of semi-legitimacy to clearly illegitimacy that began with treason according to the costitution.

MMA, Military Mullah Alliance was always `B` team for Musharraf. Their strength in assemblies owe it to manipulation and engineering of agencies on Musharraf behalf. Out of MMA components, JI being more matured was most reluctant to negotiate with military thug. Moreover half of their members owe victories to the backing of Nawaz League in Lahore.

On long term basis, it is better to see parting of PML (N) and Islamists (at least I always wished it) in addition to coming of MMA in open as pro-giovernment and not an opposition party. They played their role right as `B` team of ruling junta whereas PML (N) and PPP played right as opposition.

The ground reality remains unchanged and would have remained unchanged despite this face lift of 17th amendment. The legitimacy can not be gained on the basis of reconstitutiing Supreme Court of Pakistan through PCO, removing President of Pakistan unilaterally and unconstitutionally, carrying out illegal and unconstitutional refrendum, facade of engineered elections for assemblies and staying aloof and disdainful of whole elected bodies by ignoring and on the record insulting it. Lastly never facing opposition in election until today, be it referendum or vote of confidence, his was the sole name on the ballot.

In my opinion, by supporting Musharraf both MMA and MQM has made stupid political errors and making the door open for both PPP and PML (N) for anti-military and shia mohajir vote of Karachi and Sindh.

#3 Nazar Hayat Khan

[``It is time that politicians agreed on at least on ONE ISSUE - not to tolerate the Khakis. ``]

Nazar, does this include the Khakis who have usurped civilian jobs that they don`t deserve... For example, generals running WAPDA and Steel Mills and PAF pilots flying for PIA now?