Seducing The Devil

Mushaarf might be a dictator and might be a `bad guy` in your eyes Mr. F.R.Khan but Pakistan has always done better when ruled by a dictatorship. Our Foreign Researves have increased drastically and our ties with America are good as well. The Economic enviroment in Pakistan has become much better. There is saying ke Nawaz shareef and Benazir Bhutto,
` Woh kuch samajata nahin tha aur woh kuch sunti nahin thi`.

PML-N and PPP have both plagued Pakistan and now their age is over. A new Pakistan is about to emerge. And why are you so in favor of Democracy? Democracy evolved in Greek City states. It greatly influenced the American and French Revolutions. My point is democracy is a Western thing, and it can not be imposed upon us.

Down with democracy! :P

The MMA has in the ned taken a very pro democracy stance in this whole issue. While negotiations with the PPP stalled because of the BB-Zardari factor, solely. The MMA did what any responsible opposition party would have done it negotiated an exit strategy for the Army, as has been the practice of every civilian parliament since teh first martial law. Surprisingly the MMA accepted clauses in the LFO which reversed Zia`s Islamisation..like the joint electorate..the increase in womens seats and so on....irrespective of their political idealogy..I think they have come out of the whole story as a nationlly recognised political force..which may deliver dividends in Punjab and Sinh come next election.

Khan Sahib

I tend to disagree.

You are blaming PPP, ARD and PML(N) for not supportung a Chief of Army Staff who took over.

Whereas, the politicians to be blamed are the one`s in the PML (Q) & its associates for supporting the military.

It was better to have an unconstitutional rule than to have it legalized by the politicians themselves. Army has already ruled for about 25 years - few more years would not have mattered. But then it would have been thrown out by the people. ARD`s stand is correct.

It is time that politicians agreed on at least on ONE ISSUE - not to tolerate the Khakis.

True to the simplistic approach of the military, Musharaf has already done a great harm. By keeping PPP and PML(N) out of the political process, on the pretext of corruption of a few billion Dollars (and possibly Zardari`s murder charges in Shahnawaz case), he has let a much bigger EVIL MMA get some position in the Pakistani political system.

I agree with you on the MQM. MQM has arrived - quite at ease with the Sindhis & deadly against Mullacracy.

Rest assured, PPP & PML (N) have not gone anywhere. They collectively got 70% of the cast votes in the last election. Wait till Musharraf`s uniform is off. The present dispensation is unnarural & unstable. 342 Parliamentarians are just the jokers. It is one man rule.

This is a good article, except that mentioning PML N a number of times does not make any sense. There is no such thing as PML N anymore.

As the writer has mentioned, the best deal would have been a Musharraf-PPP alliance with Makhdoom Amin Faheem as PM. Musharraf also sought that as a prefered option. However, BB could not have settled for that. From her point of view, its only her who merits the position of PM. Any other person elected to PM position would be non-democratic. PPP is BB is PM is democracy. That is the simple relationship for the House of Bhutto.

The writer has correctly forecasted the eventual demise of PPP and Muttahida taking its place in the national politics.

.......... i don`t understand fr khan`s logic of what the ppp and ard would have gained by participating in a rigged vote............why?........ anyone who votes when they know that the result is pre-determined is either an flaming idiot or a suffering fool - take your pick.............oh, but they would have proven that they are gentlemen .... so??........what would they get in return - the scorn of the goons in khaki and their bearded allies?.......... at least now they are not part of the establishment and stand a chance with the next chief of army staff - the guy who really matters ............

MMA has played its cards well.

Politics is the art of the possible. Not the dreams of the impossible. MMA had a smaller percentage of seats, yet ended up dominating the opposition. Both the PML(N) and PPPP were dancing to the tunes of MMA, and Fazl would have been the leader of the opposition, even though PPP had more votes.

The govt. put pressure on the MMA, through the disqualification act of degrees, and the MMA seeing the situation, decided to work with the govt. Interestingly, it has not voted for Musharraf. It has infact, abstained from the voting. And it still sits in the opposition.

However, now it occupies the prominent role in the opposition and in the govt.

PML has done well also. Since nearly the whole party is now called PML(Q). Only a little bit is left in PML(N). So PML(Q) is the real PML now. It is running the country.

The one party that has sidelined itself politically, is PPPP. This is not due to any political stand based on principal. It is due to giving the desires of its top leader (BB) more important than the future of the party. Had all the charges been dropped against BB, PPPP would have jumped on the bandwagon with the govt. However, sincce that was not done, BB disallowed her party to work with the govt. and form the govt. She is not even allowing a new leadership to emerge in the party, lest her own influence be reduced. That is why she has appointed a weak leader like Amin Fahim to lead it. She is scared that a strong leader may empower the party, and she maybe sidelined. If she does not have her party as a leverage, she will be forced to face the music in the courts, like any other Pakistani citizen would.

MQM has a very strong and loyal base. It is the most secular party in Pakistan. And it genuinely represents the middle class of Karachi (while MMA represents the lower class of NWFP and Baluchistan). A secular MQM, even if it performs marginally well, cannot be defeated by a religious MMA. This is why MQM literally swept away Jamaat-i-Islami from Karachi. And this is why, even after screwing up Karachi, MQM still wins there.

If MQM can get out of its ethnic Muhajir leanings and actually start doing something productive, instead of gang warfare, it would be the best force in representing secularism throughout Pakistan.

There are only two electable parties in Pakistan, whose leaders resemble their voters and are from the same social strata. These are MQM and MMA. MQM leaders are very middle class - pharmacists, shopkeepers, rickshawallahs, doctors etc. As are its voters. MMA leaders are generally from the lower class - illiterate and madrassah educated farmers, mosque imams etc. As are its voters.

This is why the voting base of these two parties is so loyal and disciplined. Altaf Hussain and Qazi Hussain can clap their hands and 50,000 of their supporters will line up in the streets. And hardly any of their MNAs and MPAs ever defects from their party. Added to this, their own heads are not elitist. Altaf Hussain was a pharmacist, and cab driver(?) in USA. And Qazi Hussain was a Geography(?) teacher.

These parties, of course, have other problems. Like violence, and misguided religious policies, respectively.

However, compare them to the two mainstream parties in Pakistan, i.e. PPP and PML, and their leaderships. NS, and especially BB, have absolutely nothing common with the voter who is in their constituency. The former is (was) perhaps the richest guy in the country. And the later is one of the most powerful feudals in the country and an extremely rich woman (through corruption and land holdings).

As I stated many times before, people need to stop making fun of the MMA, and start making fun of their won party`s leaders. There used to be a time, when secularists in Pakistan would say, that if democracy is allowed, maulvis cannot win any seats. This was true uptil the last election. Before than maulvi parties won around 1 - 3% of the seats in the NA.

However, the last election changed that. Maulvis actually defeated the pro-Musharraf PML(Q) in NWFP. Now people have been forced to state that, ``PPP still got the most votes in the country.`` True. But I have a feeling, if the PPPs are not taken away from the self-centered leaderships, pretty soon people will not be able to make the above statement about the votes, either. And once the MMA-types gets a majority, it will be too late for our Secularists to carry out any introspection.

Here is to hoping a day will come when PPP will be headed by a cab driving pharmacist. And PML will be headed by a Geogrphy lecturer. That is when they will turn into truly democratic parties and will be able to take on the maulvi brigade (and the Army for that matter). Till then, if you ask me, the best hope, in the long run, for Pakistani secularism is an ethnically-agnostic and neutral MQM.

nhk,

``It is time that politicians agreed on at least on ONE ISSUE - not to tolerate the Khakis``

hear hear! Army needs to go!


ferozk

The issue is not as much of democracy, which is, you will agree, an abstract term. Pakistan might be an `administrative` state, but for any state to function there should be some legality , some constitutional basis. Army`s presence in the halls of political power tells us that the highest law has been violated... forget what it does for democracy... think the repercussions in law and order ...

This is precisely why the entire proceeding on the vote of confidence is a lie and farce.


-YLH

romair! ......... where do you come up with these cerebral gems:

``However, now it occupies the prominent role in the opposition and in the govt. `` ...

....uh ?????............ this might make sense for the mma because in their vision there is no such thing as an opposition - god does not tolerate any such nonsense .......... but most ordinary people (civilians) would agree that you can`t be in the government and in the opposition at the same time ............

............ waiting with bated breath for the next profundity from your flatulence ..........

#3 Nazar Hayat Khan

[``It is time that politicians agreed on at least on ONE ISSUE - not to tolerate the Khakis. ``]

Nazar, does this include the Khakis who have usurped civilian jobs that they don`t deserve... For example, generals running WAPDA and Steel Mills and PAF pilots flying for PIA now?

Only PPP and PML(N( have proven to be mature political parties in current situation. It was a mistake by PPP to negotiate Musharraf soon after farcical elections. Late Nawabzada Nasrullah Khan rightly played his hand right as president of ARD to pull PPP back into principled democratic party. As hamidm said, there was nothing in it for PPP, PML (N( or democracy to bend according to the wishes of Musharraf and stamp some sort of semi-legitimacy to clearly illegitimacy that began with treason according to the costitution.

MMA, Military Mullah Alliance was always `B` team for Musharraf. Their strength in assemblies owe it to manipulation and engineering of agencies on Musharraf behalf. Out of MMA components, JI being more matured was most reluctant to negotiate with military thug. Moreover half of their members owe victories to the backing of Nawaz League in Lahore.

On long term basis, it is better to see parting of PML (N) and Islamists (at least I always wished it) in addition to coming of MMA in open as pro-giovernment and not an opposition party. They played their role right as `B` team of ruling junta whereas PML (N) and PPP played right as opposition.

The ground reality remains unchanged and would have remained unchanged despite this face lift of 17th amendment. The legitimacy can not be gained on the basis of reconstitutiing Supreme Court of Pakistan through PCO, removing President of Pakistan unilaterally and unconstitutionally, carrying out illegal and unconstitutional refrendum, facade of engineered elections for assemblies and staying aloof and disdainful of whole elected bodies by ignoring and on the record insulting it. Lastly never facing opposition in election until today, be it referendum or vote of confidence, his was the sole name on the ballot.

In my opinion, by supporting Musharraf both MMA and MQM has made stupid political errors and making the door open for both PPP and PML (N) for anti-military and shia mohajir vote of Karachi and Sindh.

F.R. Khan’s analysis is pretty much on the mark when he scolds the PPP and the Nawaz group for boycotting the voting on both measures. I would like to point out that both the PPP and the Nawaz group actually gave a tacit support to both unconstitutional measures. If they were against those amendments, they should have voted against them in the assembly. By not voting, they have proved once again that they are as willing to work with the Army as the MMA.
By abstaining, both the PPP and the Nawaz group have left the options open to support the Army in future.
The feudal characters in the PPP and in the Nawaz league are not very far from the PML (Q) in their political ideology. It is matter of time before we will see the membership of the patriot group swell. It seems to me that by putting Javed Hashmi in jail, the army also obtained quiet approval of rest of the Nawaz group in the national assembly.

It’s hard for me understand Mr. Khan`s logic behind “…that MQM has smelled the weakness of PML-N and PPP and is adroitly maneuvering itself to occupy the political space left by these two parties and as a possible leverage to MMA.”

On the contrary, I think the next move the MMA would make would be to ease out MQM from Sindh govt. MQM arguably has no leverage at all, if the MMA is willing to support the govt. in the National assembly and the senate.
There is a history of hate-hate relationship between the Army and the MQM. The Army, reluctantly accepted MQM as a political collaborator, in the first place, when the Army could not find political support from the MMA after the elections last year. With political support now forthcoming from the MMA, MQM holding its own against its sworn enemies in the MMA does not look viable.

“As to MMA, it has lost all sense of legitimacy and will soon face a backlash of its votaries.” – F.R.Khan

No accurate at all!!! MMA voters had no interest whatsoever with LFO or the constitutional changes. So the question of any backlash does not arise. The MMA was not part of the ARD so it only had an ambiguous stand against the LFO during the elections. Pretty much all the parties in the MMA have always had excellent relations with the Army and it was a matter of time for them to go back to where they are comfortable.

in search of respectability,

This article by ferzok is another example of pakistanis insatiable attempts to introduce a symbol of respectability of what is happening in pakistan. All of what is written is pure crap, there can be no rhyme or reason in logical terms of what is happening in pakistan, it has to be understood purely in religious and emotional terms, the actions of section of humanity fed on hatred.
Look at the highest level pak govt policy propasals in the last few weeks. Evry one of them were rediculus and changed, eroding any kind of respectability to the pak government, their beurocrats. Pakistanis lack the basic ability to think through anything rationall simply because of the hatred infused education system. One can cleary see that on chowk, tahmed and romair as clear examples of warped thinking.

Failure, more than politics,

Pakistan is supposed to have a beurocrcy, modelled or rather left behind by the british. This according to all from pakistan comprises professionals in the various ministries, offering considered views of everything.

Now look at recent pak response to indian offers. They wanted to give medical support for rape victims in india, they wanted the kashmiris to have un documents, they wanted india to signa special deal not to cancell overflights with out consultations.

Suddenly all these are gone, there is cease fire to cap it off. The foolf of the pak administration who offered all of the above advice continue to be thre. It is unlikely that mushy dreamed up all of the earlier reddiculuas ideas, it should have come from the pak elites, the ilks of tahmed and romair.
The new one should have come from the FBI and the US agents with gun to the head of mushy. No point in asking, no pakistani will dare to explain the process.

The above example at the highest policy level is a symtom of the deep rooted malice of the pak society, they can think only in terms of hatred, the TNt effect, and some one else has to faorce the change, good that FBI are arpound and the US troops in 6 bases in pakistan.

Interesting interview of Stephen Cohen on CSPAN December 31, 2003 at:

http://www.c-span.org/homepage.asp?Cat=Series&Code=WJE&ShowVidNum=6&Rot_Cat_CD=WJ&Rot_HT=205&Rot_WD=

Hope that many Pakistanis listen to it.

Ras

Ali_1 # 7

(does this include the Khakis who have usurped civilian jobs that they don`t deserve... For example, generals running WAPDA and Steel Mills and PAF pilots flying for PIA now?)

There is a clear differentiation here. The duputationists (people thrust into departments) are not welcome. The retired Khakis who go through the normal selection process after applying through an add in the newspapers fall in the normal acceptable category.

A retired General is most welcome to become a President provided he runs normally in a normal election.

(All PAF pilots, who joined PIA, went through the normal applications, tests/examinations process - and were placed junior most in accordance with AirLine seniority. Airlines all over the world take Air Force pilots - some like Turkey, Singapore, Israel etc take only Air Force pilots. In fact PIA pilots Association, of which I am a member, has to be given credit for preventing Air Force pilots steamrolling into PIA without any selection & merit. Presidents like Ghulam Ishaq tried to get his ADC into PIA through back door - he failed!)

F.R. Khan,
I can only say that to a distant observer the PPP and PML(N) position

on the boycott of the 17th amendment is very logical. In that regard IF Musharraf

fails to deliver the goods, Pakistan has a fall back position. So wish him luck and don`t

be too critical (leave that to Romair) of people who have more of a legal foundation to

stand on.

And speaking of Romair from the temporal board below....

#304 by Romair on January 2, 2004 0:25am PT
Ras #268: ``Romair and Tahmed420 are reassuring readers here that things could not
be in better hands.``

How about asking me first, before misquoting me? :-)

I have never said things could not be in better hands. All I have said is that things could be much worse, and they seem to be settling down, more than they were before.

There is a huge difference, between what I stated and your misquotation of it.

``Romair fails to mention that they still vote mostly for the PPP.``

Spoken like a true PPPliya. I admire your loyalty, though I disagree with your logic.
If we use most votes as a rule, then Musharraf won the most votes to become the Presidents yesterday. This does not make the votes legitimate. The votes were cast under an umbrella of force. Hence he still remains a dictator, if you ask me (albiet a more honest and progressive one than other dicatators like BB and NS).``

My response...

Romair, most of the long list of remarks that you have presented could also be stuck on

the Khakis as well (they do retire don`t they?).

You do not need to talk about misquoting either because we are all quite familiar with

your thinking by now. You are the Volumetic Opinion Champion on CHOWK.

For the rest of us who do not have that kind of time let us agree to disagree and move on.


The PPP is currently the only real alternative for Pakistan if Musharraf cannot deliver.

The Khakis occupation of the presidency currently has Washington`s blessing very much

like the old Zia Regime which is mostly responsible for Pakistan`s current mess.

We are fortunate that Mush does not think like Zia and that Washington seems to be in

``Damage Control`` mode in Pakistan AT THE MOMENT.

Pakistanis are walking on eggshells, a sight that many of our indian friends on CHOWK

continue to enjoy.

I have little against Mush personally and as long as he does not assasinate any leaders

that have been elected by non-military methods in Pakistan, he deserves a chance to

rectify the mess that the Khakis, the US and the Saudis have created in my country of

origin.

We will wait and see....