Now it’s mannequins

I think there is something seriously wrong with Muslims...

I wonder when will they learn...

Even a Mule after so much thrashing should learn they ways of his master....Yet they now seems immune to all types of shocks....and keep on doing the same blunder again and again...

Omar,

Your word is good enough. However, I wanted to confirm the source. I think NWFP government should have made alternate arrangements before imposing such restriction. Loss of one human life because of our negligence is too many. I think Islamic injunctions provide some relaxation if the matter is of life and death. In short, I support such restrictions within the limits of reason because they are more representative of our cultural and moral values.

As far as number of male gynaecologists is concerned I am still skeptical

urstruly-- i have one question for you -- do you live in peshawar or the nwfp? also, what is your claim that male gynaecologists in Pakistan can be counted on the digits of two hands -- i think the figures given by the Pakistan Medical Association would be more relevant and off hand I can name at least a dozen male gynaecologists in Karachi alone (including some of the better-known ones) -- in any case the ban applied not only to male gynaecologists but was being implemented in general even in the case of matters as routine as getting a lab test done -- and the source of the ``claim``, as you say, is several newspaper stories, quoting families of the victims and specific instances -- i think the figure was 53 deaths -- two were published in Dawn and one was carried by a foreign wire service -- also, the NWFP government or its health department never denied them --

As an outsider, all I can say is that Pakistani politics is a mess...

Now, I will admit the banning of male gyno`s is dumb even by Pakistani standards. This aside consider if after MMA, a more secular-minded party comes into power. Their very first order of business is to undo all the `harm` the MMA did. So by edict of new government, hijab is no longer compulsory, ban on male coaches for female temas lifted, lifting ban on business/transportation shutdown on prayer time, and darn `tootin - the mannequin`s are trucked back in by the thousands. If this is their first order of business, will you be kind enough to write an article on how they`re wasting their time on such useless issues, while real issues go on ignored? Or will you and precious foreign press sing their praises? Please, be honest.

Any adminstration should be judged by it`s actions and the efficacy of these actions. You are absoloutely correct in stating that there are more pressing issues to be dealt with. But why so harsh on MMA? What about past leadership that was apparently more secular? Why should any future leadership be better than any of the past ones? Or did people honestly think MMA would have made an attempt on those big issues?!?!?! HAHAHA, what a laugh that is...I mean, if MMA was undoing progress made, I could understand the anger...but...come on...NWFP province has always been a mess...

Echoboom

Amen brother.

CHERRYBLOSSOM:(tan, brown, or black?)

It would be very difficult for you to comprehend. You are a DESI pretending to be a foreigner in Pakistan. Talk to your mohalla Imam to give you a rating on your I.Q

What a laa` nat on you slaves when your masters assure the safety of your President. And is this the army, O baighairato, which gets paid in plots to safeguard the nation? I say, the biggest feudals in Pakiland are the khakhis: They plot for plots. Whoever ever heard of `Defence Colonies`? Askari banks ? Fauji Construction & Dev. Fauji Cornflakes? Sugar Mills..for Allah`s sake THIS is where these MANNEQUINS are found.

Earn some Ghairat and lesser Money: and you will be on your way to become wealthy. Give a kick to the Leuchodermia (whitespot-disease) of colonialism & westernism and you will win by flying colors.

O laa`ntee , write something which has even a remote possibility of you getting fired or becoming jobless. To be able to drink and fcukk around is not progress and achievement. Gynkhanas and boat-clubs are for the lowest of low in Pakistan.

Start visiting the mohalla Imam, your anglicised educated mind needs surgery.

Omar

``The decision, according to several stories that came in its aftermath, cost several dozen pregnant women their lives, who died during childbirth because female gynaecologists were not available.``

What is the source and evidence of this claim. As far as I can tell, the number of male gynaecologists in Pakistan could be counted on the digits of two hands. It is not a profession that male doctors go into. In my opinion if there are male gynaecologists in Paksitan then they are mostly in private consultation, where mostly they treat infirtility issues rather than operational issues of childbirth in the hospitals. And I really doubt that there were so many male gynaecologists in a province as conservative as NWFP, so that their absence would have caused the death of dozens of women. It doesn`t sound plausible.

echo boom (from what i can make of your posting) -- the story about the mannequins first came in the media (the english one to be precise), and so did this particular article

The kind of news which the BOOTLICKERs from cantonements and colonies are terrified to print in the illiterates media--the english media!

Time to read the writings on the masjid walls--better still, make them your friends. The Burra sahib has gone . Look, walk, and talk like the real Pakistani--Vajpaee looks like his majority subjects. Why can`t Pakis like you. Feel I.Q going down in vernacular?

---

READ, REPENT, REVERT!

Telegraph, London 4th january, 2004

The Muslim veil has become a hot political issue in France - but Stella White cannot see what the fuss is about. A Catholic from Kent, she explains the joys of the complete cover-up.


How not to be mistaken for a LIVE-MANNEQUIN

romair: according to the 2002-03 economic survey of Pakistan the country has at least 3 million Internet users -- this is the figure for connections by the way and there may well be more actual users (and this number is constantly rising and does not include use of the net in cyber cafes, which by the way i found even in nathiagali) -- and this is a government figure which anyway might be lower than the actual -- as for chowk users, the internet is available in many small towns and cities such as say muzaffargarh, sahiwal, dadu city, toba tek singh, turbat etc. I gave the example of muzaffargarh and turbat because we (as in Dawn staff) get mail from these places quite regularly -- in any case the internet is widely available, though Paknet is in many cases the only ISP around -- as for cable viewers, a recent government and industry estimate said that at least 25 million Pakistanis have access to cable -- and one also cannot assume that this would exclusively be confined to the urban areas -- many smaller towns and cities have cable networks -- besides, the way the census defines rural and urban areas can be problematic though beyond the scope of what i am trying to argue here -- the way you arrived at the chowk estimate is a bit simplistic -- i personally know several people who log on to chowk and by no stretch of teh imagination would one call them super-rich or even rich -- perhaps upper middle-class or even middle-class would cut and that does not make them the top 1 per cent -- and yaar please, for the sake of argument please realize that even those who live in karachi`s `posh` defence and clifton have to deal with bad roads, stray dogs, open manholes, theft, power outages, bad or non-existent solid waste collection and so on just like people in other less affluent neighbourhoods -- true, that they have more resources at their disposal to deal with such problems but that isn`t always true and in any case this does not mean that their problems are different from everybody else`s in pakistan

by the way your last para of your post, romair, i dont know where your getting your view of pakistan -- it isn`t like that and things are quite rapidly changing, though not always for the better -- i dont know what big words like self-actualization mean and i dont think that ``most pakistanis`` are in the food and physical security stage -- and even if they are then many `rich` pakistanis are also probably worried about their physical security

omar_r_qureshi #25: ``when i said that your estimates were generally off target i was referring to the figures/percentages you gave in your earlier posting -- you would probably agree that basing judgments on estimates, especially when there is no basis to make an accurate estimate, can lead to highly misleading conclusions``

I agree.

This is why I used the word, ``guess.`` I based the figures on the following:

- The literacy rate of Pakistan is roughly 40% +/-. Most of that is from urban Sind and Punjab. So NWFP has a lower percentage. Within NWFP, the poorer voterbase is more towards MMA. Hence the number would be even lower. I would say 30% literacy would be a good guess. Though I could be wrong.

- I remember reading that 1 million Pakistanis have access to the Internet. That is around .75% (1 million out of 140 million) of the population. Most of it is in urban Sind and urban Punjab. So the figure of 99.5% not having Internet access at home in NWFP.

The figures for cable TV access and higher education are based on extrapolating from similar figures. So not completely off target.

The one about wearing manequin clothes, I came up with on my own.

As regarding Chowk interactors:

Anyone who lives in a major urban center, even if he/she is poor, is in the top 40% of Pakistan, since 60%+ population is rural. Anyone who has Internet access at home, is already in the top 1%. Anyone who has a foreign degree or lives abroad with a foreign degree based job (non-labor), is probably in the top .1% (1 out of a thousand). Anyone who has any kind of a college degree form Pakistan is probably in the top 5%. Anyone who can write good English is in a similar fraction. etc. etc.

All of Chowk satisfies the above. This would put them in the top 1% or less (probably much less) of Pakistan. To me, that is a good definition of the super-rich in the society. Usually, people who are in the super-rich group, do not realize how rich they are, in comparison to others in their society.

Thus, I doubt, at a personal level, the problems of us Chowkies have much in common with the problems of the remaining 99% of Pakistan. Hence we will give completely different importance to issues and problems, which maybe completely irrelevant to the average voter. This does not mean our issues are invalid or wrong. However, politicians will always concentrate on issues, which appeal to the remaining 99%. We are all in the self-acculization stage stage of the hierarchy, while most of Pakistan is still in the food and physical security stage.

romair -- who said banning mannequins isnt a ridiculous idea???? my whole article would seem to suggest that it -- when i said that your estimates were generally off target i was referring to the figures/percentages you gave in your earlier posting -- you would probably agree that basing judgments on estimates, especially when there is no basis to make an accurate estimate, can lead to highly misleading conclusions -- besides, i am not sure if everyone who comes to chowk (and who lives in Pakistan) is super-rich, though they might have other problems -- in any case the MMA government people in the NWFP certainly do not come to chowk and probably are not super-rich -- but they still seem to have time to indulge in such non-issues -- and its people on chowk sometimes actually discussing real issues, even though (as you say) they might be quite different from the `average pakistani`

omar_r_qureshi #22: ``romair -- your estimates are mostly quite off target -- ``

To summarize, my estimates are as follows:

- An overwhelming majority of the voting population of Pakistan (probably over 95%) has very little in common, with all of us on Chowk. We are super-rich, by Pakistani standards (many of us are even rich by North American standards). The average and even above average Pakistani has compeletely different problems.
- Banning manequins is a ridiculous idea
- At the same time, it, and other similar actions, are not going to be the deciding factor regarding the success or failure of any govt. in NWFP, nor in Pakistan, in the eyes of the voter
- The deciding factor is going to be how much of an improvement the govt. can bring to the economic and infrastructure conditions of the poor (who are the main voting block)
- Now that we have four different kinds of govts. in Pakistan, it will give us a good opportunity to see, which ones` efforts are the most effective

Could you highlight what you find off-target in this.

romair -- your estimates are mostly quite off target --

so now what will they do? stand in place of the mannequins??(wont bearded mannequins wud look weird?)
the New Year celebrations were also banned...what are these Mullahs turning NWFP into?! it has started to resemble Taliban-controlled Afghanistan already.
give it a break, MMA !!

It will interesting to see the developments in each of the four provinces, since they are each ruled by a different type of govt..

While banning cable and manequins etc. are big time debated topics on Chowk, I don`t really think they make too much of a difference with most of the voters in Pakistan , even though they are ridiculous steps. I would guess the profile of the voters in NWFP is, roughly, as follows:

-70% or so are illiterate (cannot even read an Urdu newspaper)
-99.5% don`t have access to the Internet at home
-90-95% do not have cable TV access
-Less than 5% go on to get university education
-95% have never worn a piece of cloth that was ever worn by, or hung on, a manequin

By Pakistani standards:

-NWFP now has a complete maulvi govt. They are calling the shots, for the first time.
-Punjab has a non-mauvli, but conservatively secular govt.
-Sind has a non-maulvi, and liberally secular govt., with an odd combination of very urban and very feudal politicians
-Baluchistan has a partially maulvi govt., combined with a partially tribal govt. (I think)

I have always felt that the two main things that count with the real Pakistani voters (not us rich guys on Chowk, but the ones described in the above demographic, i.e the poor voters) are

- Security (physical and financial)
- Infrastructure (electricity in villages, tube wells, mettaled roads etc.)

All other issues like secularism, Islam, cable, hijab, manequins etc. are considered important only by those voters, who already have Security and Infrastructure (like us Chowk Pakistanis)

The provincial govt. that can deliver on these two issues will become popular, regardless of its policies on manequins. And the ones which cannot deliver on these two issues will lose out, (even if it sets up a manequin factory in NWFP). At least in the part of the province which is non-feudal.

The ANP/PML which has recently ruled over NWFP failed on these two issues miserably. I wonder whether the maulvils will deliver. That, and not manequins will decide their future.

#19 by ballukhan on January 5, 2004 11:43pm PT
chowk editor ! I did not post this message, Can you find out how my account was hacked in?

#17 by anew on January 5, 2004 8:51pm PT

Again ! best of luck to the Lab RAts.

Very nice,keep it up.

If Mullah is busy with non-issues, so do we. Omar, Pakistan have bigger grey areas. Pick one of those rather a rat-race of picking Mullahs. The mis-management, corruption and greediness of politicians and beaurucracy are more serious issues to address.

I agree with HisExcellency#10. Let Mullah run the way he thinks right. If he is wrong and fail to deliver, he will be out in next election.

Before any Indian`s start gloating here`s what our own MMA is up to. Today all Punekars who supported such lunatics in the name of the ``marathi manus`` should stand with their heads hung in shame.

http://www.indiaexpress.com/news/regional/maharashtra/20040105-0.html

http://web.mid-day.com/news/city/2004/january/73054.htm

Pune: The 87-year old Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute (BORI) bears a sad look. A temple of thousands of rare manuscripts, ancient books and palm leaf inscriptions the institute`s relentless efforts were destroyed in half hour`s time, when a mob ransacked the institute, leaving behind an irreparable loss.

The institute was ransacked by nearly 250 members of a group called Sambhaji Brigade over a book written on Shivaji by foreign author James Lane.

The book `Shivaji: Hindu King in Islamic India` acknowledges one of the Sanskrit scholars, Shrikant Bahulkar of BORI in it. The Shiv Sainiks had blackened Bahulkar`s face to express their anger over this mention on December 22.

To protest this incident, Gajanan Mehendale, well-known scholar and chief editor, Cultural Index of Mahabharata, BORI tore 400 unpublished pages of his biography of Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj.

However, the controversy seemed to have resolved when Lane apologized for his statements on Shivaji. The book`s publisher, Oxford University Press, too, withdrew the book from the market by its publisher Oxford University Press.

However, today`s incident has aggrieved veteran scholars at the institute who have given every bit of their life for development of the institute. Especially, excruciating is the destruction of manuscripts, 30,000 in all, stored in 50 cupboards in institute`s premises.

The manuscripts, which were based on varied subjects like Ayurveda, veda, kavya, shilpa, mahabharata, bhakti, amongst various other, were sourced from many parts of the world.

Palm leaf inscriptions, photographs, statues too have been caused an irreparable damage. Computers storing digitalized volumes of information lie in a smashed state.

Dr Gajanan Mehendale, 86 years of age, feels, that research will become impossible in institutions like BORI if anti-social elements will try to bog down researchers by use of violence.

N B Marathe, assistant editor, Cultural Index of Mahabharata, says with mellowed eyes, ``We did not give out the original manuscripts to anyone be it person from any part of the world. Today, we do not have words left to express our anger.``

Students from countries like Germany, Japan, Switzerland, China, France, United Kingdom visit BORI for research every year.

President of the Governing Council of the Institute Leela Arjunwadkar, who falls short of words as she stands in front of heaps of broken glasses all over the institute, is unable to assess the monetary loss but feels that the cultural heritage of India has received a big setback. ``It is difficult for the institute to stand back on its feet,`` she says.

According to an eye-witness, the mob came to the institute at a time when the institute was less crowded. While some started pelting stones and breaking glasses, some cut the telephone lines so the police could not be contacted.

The Pune police have rounded up nearly 71 men, who came in Sumo jeeps at 11 am in the institute. Joint Police Commissioner (crime), Maheshgauri, said, ``Those who will be arrested will be booked under relevant sections of IPC like sections 143, 147, 148, 149, 295, 395, 120 (b), and 121.``

BORI was established in the year 1917 to commemorate the works of Ramkrishna Gopal Bhandarkar. When the Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute was founded in 1917, the then Government of Bombay handed over its entire collection of manuscripts (nearly 20,000 manuscripts) to the Institute.

The Institute has also received grants from the Government of India and the University Grants Commission for specific research projects.

The Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute normally works through its four main Departments: 1. Mahabharata and Research Unit. 2. Manuscripts. 3. Publication and 4. Post-Graduate Teaching and Research.

!
now it`s mannequins..? what`s next !

the mullahs running NWFP are like don quixote charging at windmills claiming they are dragons. the tragedy is that they probably believe that the windmills are dragons and are they real, while being blind to the dragons (poverty, illiteracy, lawlessness) that do exist in their province.

For the record, the byline for this article should read ``Omar R. Quraishi`` -- and, it was first published in Dawn on Dec. 31, 2003. (These details were mentioned to the editors of chowk when the article was submitted but for some reason were dropped.)

HE-

The Sharia experiment has already been around since ages- the recent one being the Taliban experiment in Afganistan. You think Taliban- the self proclaimed purists- were NOT implementing Sharia?? Best of luck to the inhabitants of MMA`s laboratory.

I never had much faith in the MMA, one would expect that they would resort to these kinds of antics.

Does anyone have a good analysis of their performance to date? I`m not too concerned with the banning of this and that - as far as I`m concerned this is as foolish and irrelevant as a secular party intent on legalizing alcohol. I`m particularly interested in how well they are managing the affairs of their territory with respect to their predecessors. Are things the same, or is damage being done? Or, are things in fact better?

HisExcellency wrote:

[Let no one prevent the Mullah from implementing his Shariah. Because that is the only way, we will know whether Shariah is indeed the panacea to all evils, or is it just a placebo like communism.]

Not just communism, however ever other form of governance tried in Pakistan to date.

The problems with Pakistan isn`t a lack of ideology...however I think it`s clear that whatever material progress is made will be in spite of political ideology, not because of it. No doubt, whatever party makes the improvement, the ideology they represent will `win` by association...

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

I say let the Mullahs run the province the way they want to. They promised the ``Garden of Eden`` to voters in election 2002 and got a resounding mandate. Let them create their utopian society. Burqahs, beards, billboards, music, dancing, segregated schools, school curriculum, mannequins, makeup, beauty parlors... whatever the Mullah wants to change in NWFP, let him.

Let no one prevent the Mullah from implementing his Shariah. Because that is the only way, we will know whether Shariah is indeed the panacea to all evils, or is it just a placebo like communism. If Shariah fails to deliver jobs, security and good governance, the entire leadership of MMA will have to retire from politics in 2008. Newton`s law of Physics also applies to politics: to every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.

It would be nice to hear of the good work if there were any. I keep telling myself that there is no need for a drastic reaction from the government. That the NWFP citizens that are hurt by these laws will vote the MMA out by the next election. Unfortunately that is unlikely to happen. These people will become the next emmigrant wave out of the NWFP and will probably settle in the Punjab and urban Sindh. They will not be home to vote in the next election.
Also, the president/general`s dealings with the unreliable and shady MMA has made them even stronger. They will bend the system and change the rules in order to ensure re-election.

`` There seems to be no end to the non-issues the NWFP government readily involves itself in. The most recent of these is now a ban placed on the display of mannequins in clothing stores.``

Irrespective of what MMA apologists say the MMA in particular (Islamic fundamentalists in general) have no clue to run a society in this modern world. Unless they are awash in oil. Islam may be a good religion for personal salvation but it does nothing to answer many of the real life problems Muslim citizens of this planet face.

idiots!!

Frankly, this is democracy at work. If most of the voters are of the type that would vote for these parties, then what else is to be expected? These parties did not come to power on a development agenda, but on a religious agenda. No surprise at what they are doing while in power.
I suppose in the next elections, people will figure out that they want their govt to do things other than impose religious edicts. Having a country that is officially non-secular (there is that word again!) makes it very easy for the govt to interfere with religion. Even in an Islamic state, people need to set up boundaries between the state and religion and ensure that the state does not enforce religious practices on anyone.

How about replacing the male mannequins with female ones? Wouldn`t that be less of a distraction for the good men of NWFP?!

Seriously though, the NWFP region has always been very conservative, by any standard of conservatism, so how much of this `islamization` is imported and how much is of it is inherent within the culture of that area? From what I know, the `tradition` of not allowing females to see male doctors etc widely predates the election of mullahs into government.

It would be nice to read of `the good work` occasionally.

Man, this is saddening! :-( Why O why do they want to push this country back to the stone age when the common man is dreaming of a prosperous, free and happy country?! I don`t know what kind of people support all these measures taken... it is this majority I suppose which breaks to fragile dream of an ordinary Pakistani to pieces. The greed for power, for supremacy and control is what drives them, no matter what they claim to be from the outside. If they think they`re being Islamic and are doing right for the nation then they should think again.

...romair is loving all this...he hates the `secularists`....

A Sarhad Ataturk is the need of the hour. Heck, provincial ministries (including NWFP`s first post 1947 one) have been dismissed for far less.

This kind of social atmosphere is a fertile ground for terrorists. If only for that reason, that is contributing to the promotion of terrorism, this MMA ministry ought to be reigned in.