Between Musharraf and Mullahs—Who Won?

#20 ballukhan

The answer to that question should be that since Pakistan didn`t exist before 1947 why should it exist now?

Arjun seems to have lost the plot...

What makes you think that the mullahs and the military are not one and the same? Historically these two groups have worked hand-in-glove to preserve their common vested interests.

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hamidm at # 30:

Abay oey Gopinaath, a better thing for you to do would have been to post a reasoning backed value adding message in response to mine at # 28, not shed your over active se*ual harmones on this board like the extremist fundoo Indoos namely arjun, jay the passive gay, peeing mishras and ballukhans do all the time.

Btw, if Pakistanis are getting screwed up, why is it hurting in your odd places?

Now be a good boy, grow up and spell out why do you feel the deal is bad or else go and rot in your frustration as usually the fundoo Indoos do.

military and mullahs won,

This is another of those class of articles trying to put logic to the events of pakistan. In reality, mullahs are the great winners. Following the joint kargill invasion, the influence of the jihadis in the pak army has increased and resulted in the coup that put mushy to power. Now mushy has paid back to the jihadis by giving them political power essentially by preventing the others from putting up candidates through the gragduste process. Only a true jihadi from madrass could take part in pak elections.
At last the jihadis have the military and the political process. what more can the jiahdis ask for.

Ref Zakkk #17

[arjun: I don`t believe any Indians came out during Indira Gandhis Emergency to protest..weren`t they all arrested?]

People like George Fernandes hid in safe houses for a long long time before getting caught. There were some protests though they as well as news about them were suppressed. A few newspapers had the courage to test the limits of censorship... Indian Express and its editor at that time who I believe was Arun Shourie.

[The only reason Indira Gandhi held elections was because her intelligence sources told her she`d win..]

Maybe the Intelligence Bureau wanted to see her lose! Would that be possible in Pakistan?

ahmedzai`s pakhtunwali ..........


``I would advise all Chowkies of Pakistani origin to accept the current situation, pray for the stability and prosperity of the country,``

.............. so if you are getting raped you might as well lie back and enjoy it ....... i guess it is an old nada tradition from mardan and bannu ............. but this praying business is something new - it must have something to do with the recent discovery of god north of attock !

.......... this is the kind of fool`s logic that has kept the pathetic pakis fat, dumb, happy and totally screwed up for the past fifty years - don`t question the general or the mullah and everything will be okay, just fine ............. and then we complain when it hurts in all kinds of odd places !

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Zakkk at # 24:

One could only wish that world were as simple place to live as you had stated it to be.

You think that BB would have agreed on these two terms alone and would have sacrificed her right to be the PM of Pakistan for eternity?

If you live in Pakistan then you should have known that Musharraf went for an alliance first with PPP. It is very well known that the Government offered the post of PM to Makhdoom Amin Fahim. Every one knows that the option was turned down by BB in self-imposed exile. She believes that the position of PMship only belongs to her. Any other party filling that position would be ``non-democratic force or Baqiyaat`` to her.

aaisha at # 4:

``B/w Mullahs and Mush, it`s the people of the Islamic republic of Pakistan who have lost. ``

How? Please elaborate.

In case yoou have any confidential info, kindly divulge.

PML Q/Musharraf and MMA agreement is a win-win situation for the Government, MMA and therefore, for Pakistanis.

1. The peace process has started at the 12th SAARC conference with President Musharraf having backing of all the parties that now form an over whelming majority in terms of votes polled during our last elections. The real losers will be fundoos of India like Bal Thakray and his ilk on this website i.e. arjun, gay, peeing mishra, mumbaiker, ballukhan, etc.

2. President Musharraf (i.e. military) will get rid of his uniform by the end of this year. If God forbid President Musharraf is killed before that, a new CNC will take over for the military and Senate speaker Soomro will take over the Presidency and run it till a new President is elected by all the houses.

3. The Pakhtoon population of the NWFP and Balochistan will not feel left out on Taliban`s issue by the Government.

4. Pakistan will see political as well as economic stability.

5. The pseudo-democrats of PML N and PPP have marginalized themselves. PML N is closed to disappearing altogether. The feudals of cult PPP will now form opposition along with nationalist parties of other provinces. Unfortunately, the PPP leaders are already terming MMA and PML Q as non-democratic forces. Recall that they had called PML under Nawaz Sharif as a non-democratic force when the latter had defeated them narrowly in 1990 elections.

I would advise all Chowkies of Pakistani origin to accept the current situation, pray for the stability and prosperity of the country, pray for success on peace process with India for the benefit of the inhabitants of Asian Sub-continent and weed out petty differences amongst ourselves (i.e. Pakistanis).

I personally think Mush could have come to a better understanding with the PPP if he had done two things..
1) Allowed th majority party in Sindh to come to power (aka the PPP )

2) Released Zardari on jail..

With that done ...the 17th amendment would have passed...with minimum grief.

p.s: Whats wrong with Chowks editors? I`ve e mailed them twice and had no response?

What really surprises me is how the tone of Indian media has changed in recent days. The way these chameleons tow their government policies is amazing; so much for the independent democratic media. That really puts them at par with fox and abc. Just a few days ago if the situation with Indian media could be described as ``muNh meiN churri baghal meiN Ram Ram``, can now be described as `` Baghal meiN churri, munh meiN Ram Ram``. Well, I hope at least it will give some rest to the perpetually flared haemoroid of hindu religious nuts on this website - or will it?

Interesting article.

The Americans won!

Ciao

to : #7 by mumbaikar on January 5, 2004 7:48am PT


are you running some type of paid or unpaid newsteller on chowk?

SAARC SUMMIT

Did the last two attempts on Musharraf`s life by the Kashmiri Jihadis finally got him to fully pull back his support for the Kashmiri Jihadis?

Did the last two attempts on Musharraf`s life by the Kashmiri Jihadis persuade India that Musharraf was indeed not supporting the Kashmiri Jihadis?

May be some one can throw some light on the impact of these attempts on the changed Indo-Pak stance during the Summit.

Media During the SAARC Summit

While both the Indian & Pakistani Governements opted for the quiet behind-the-scene diplomacy - having learnt a few lessons on how the Chinese conduct their sensitive business -

I found the Pakistani media far too excited and immature - as it continued to play on the theme of Kashmir again & again - wanting a resolution of the issue in the 48 hours. Hamid Mir of Geo & Dr Masood of ARY specifically displaying immature interventionist anchor role.

While the Indian media men appeared more mature & impressive - as they openly criticised their own Government on some aspects of the Kashmir issue - and their emphasis being more on the future course and on peace.

A SAARC economic union with safe open borders should automatically take the sting out of the Kashmir issue - but every one needs to wait and keep calm with cold glasses water for some time - just the way the Chinese do.

As for the hardliners, we have Qazi Thakrey & India has Bal Hussain Ahmed.

http://in.rediff.com/news/2004/jan/05inter.htm

``.... If India could be divided on the basis of religion in 1947, why can`t it be similarly divided now? Why is India reluctant about accepting historical facts?.....``

--Qazi Hussain Ahmed, acting president of the Pakistani religious alliance Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal and chief of the Jamait e Islami

Idiots like him run the TNT brigade of Puristan!! With these guys around who needs Osama.

arjun: I don`t believe any Indians came out during Indira Gandhis Emergency to protest..weren`t they all arrested? The only reason Indira Gandhi held elections was because her intelligence sources told her she`d win..

It is amusing to see the learned ambassador write about the horrible duo of mullahs and military. Why do these people have sparks of conscience AFTER having eaten heavily at the trough of favors (read postings, ambassadorships, plots, salaries etc) of the same entities they deride afterwards? When their conscience and courage would have counted, they silently chose to enjoy the perks of life.

It is not simply a Millatry Mulla alliance but rather has a more deeper significance. It is in fact Mulla Millatry Matarrua Alliance. What is Matarruaism? It is a mentality which gives more importance to the land than the people which inhabit it as sons of the soil. It was this very mentality which lead to breaking up of; first, the muslim nation of India and then of Pakistan and is now threatening to breaking it up further. It is phenomenon which requires a deeper study. I may, however, clarify that though it gives rise to the politics of hatred and self-interest it is nevertheless more progressive than the feudalism, which has somewhat the same characteristic of treating the land more important than the human beings, but is less divisive than the Mulla and Matarrua.

Between Musharraf and Mullahs—Who Won?


Niccolo Machiavelli won.

None of you know the secret of `Melting Mullahs`. They were blackmailed to be disqualified for not possessing Graduadion degrees. Their was already a case in the court and petition in Election Commission to disqualify almost 90% of them for having Madrassah degrees which were chaallanged to be not equivalent to BA degree. However, these Madrassah degrees were accepted at the time of Election as an equivalent. So Mullahs were blackmailed - Machiavelli style. Now it is a win-win situation for Musharraf, Mullahs and Pakistan.

if Kargil is any indication -- hopefully the master tactician Musharraf did WIN by stage managing the two bombings as fireworks before his Tajposhi under the tent of the SARC Circus......

otherwise as they say -- sub thaath puRaa ruh jaway gaa jub laad chulay gaa banjaraa...

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The question to ask is why/how did the mullahs win the elections in the NWFP and Balochistan? And/or in other words, Musharaf won the day the election results were announced. This recent ``deal`` was a forgone conclusion. Musharaf won a long time ago.

Re: # 9 arjun_m : ``who is the paki army to go against the wishes of the paki people...``
the Pakistani is everyone to go against the wishes of the paki ppl, who btw dont know what they want themselves only because one army man after the other had hijacked the country and its intellectual growth process to ensure all succeeding generations were witless, dumbos mistaking men in khakis as an answer to the country`s perennial misgovernace problems. However if you look at a history of who ruled the land more, elected ones of couped installed rulers (read army men) it wud be clear where the misgovernance springs from. democracy is not given time enough, in this God Forsaken country, to weed out the remnants of autocratic ruling culture...oh, the elected class of today, itself is a remnant of `generalled` days of yore

The previous article on this topic by F. R. Khan discredited the ARD and its major components PPP and PML (N) parties. This article gives victory to Musharraf. In my opinion, it is nothing more than a hurrah for the victor already firmly standing alone on the podium.

It changes nothing in the eyes of the world, people of Pakistan, establishment of Pakistan and opposition to his dictatorial rule. The question of necessity for MMA to be so interested in a dialogue with Musharraf junta remains unanswered for those who considered MMA an opposition party rather than a `B` team of the military. They already had provincial power in two federal units. They were in no danger of losing it. So why did they negotiate anyway? What were they aiming at? All politics is for power. Their power remains at the same level as before the deal.

The answer is simple. The military mullah alliance that came into existance in 1953 remains intact. Mullahs have been playing in support of military in the form of jihadis, Taliban and destabilizing civilian governments whenever military feels that civilians are becoming too powerful. The side effect of this is sectarian violence which is tolerated as not such a big price for the utility of mullahs in the service of military establishment.

So MMA victory in 2002 elections was as much engineered as those of PML (Q) and NA parties. MMA knows it and when asked to return the favor, they obliged. They put up fake mask of responsible opposition - not to be seen as `B` team - since it is very damaging for public support.

The understanding between Musharraf and MMA existed all along except for a single foreign policy issue which could be explained as no-other-choice necessity. It was all fake for Musharraf to demand too much and in the end negotiating settlement with MMA. Their is nothing unusal in this pre-arranged deal but for the sake of fooling people into believing it as negotiation. You want 4000, you ask for 5000 and after `hard bargaining` settle for 4000 so that MMA does not look `B` team.

One of the component of MMA, Jamaat Ahle Hadees of Sajid Mir is already refusing it and calling MMA leadership as `B` team.

The traitor, cheater, liar, fraud, dictator, usurperer image of Musharraf remains fully intact despite such phony exercises.

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Arjun

I didn`t say that Dems will change the basic policy, instead I said that their modus operendi will be different while US imperialist policy will remain the same. What Bush has done is that he has put a wheel in irreversible and unstopable motion. There are two possible outcomes of his actions. It will either eventually lead the US`s world domination or it may result in total containment of this monster to the North American continent. In order to exit honorably and emerge as a law abiding nation in the world, now US would have to make huge concessions to the rest of the world, which no administration can afford politically. On the other hand it takes an Algiers for DeGauls to emerge. I think dems modus would be more dangerous for the helpless third world nations as compared to that of Bush`s.

The Indian Supreme Court has a similar check on the use of dismissal powers. All Parliamnentry democracies have some form of dismissal powers granted to the Constitutional figure head...wth time the practice falls into disuse. In Pakistan`s case any check or balance is open to abuse as long as you have people who see things in the light of power grabs.

The faujiz have done well. MMA was the faujiz `B Team` anyway and there is little surprise on how easily they capitulated to the demands of the Faujiz.

For now, lets wait till we`re back to square one- ie after Musharaf is gone, lets prepare to start the process all over again. It`ll be fun. : )

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I just returned from India after a trip for two months. Therefore, I am somewhat disconnected with the political atmosphere here. But I noted the definite positive trend between India and Pakistan. Let us hope it continues in prudent ways.

Returning to the subject at hand, I believe it is good and hopeful sign the the recidivist elements often included in the MMA type of parties are getting the well deserved defeats against Gen. Musharraf. While the military dictators are not the ideal way for a democratic nation, under the circumstances in Pakistan, some coercion of religious fanatics is almost necessary. Islamic masjids are far behind other religious institutions in the world in developing the fair, modernized, positive and constructive approach toward the emotional states generally attributed to religions.

The wisdom and love of Gen Musharraf for the Pakistani population will be tested in spearheading paths which gradually lead to a responsible form of governance in Pakistan. This will emerge more from the control of personal aggrandisement than megalomaniac overemphasis on individual solution to national problems. A prudent investment in a relevant checks and balances system will lead to rational development of Pakistan.

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B/w Mullahs and Mush, it`s the people of the Islamic republic of Pakistan who have lost.

Mullah`s have conceded too much to this dictator. As a Muslim and a Pakistani I reject their pact with the devil, and so should every self respecting Pakistani. This is totally unacceptable.

I think military has played its cards well. In case Bush loses election in Nov., he will need partners for his so called war on everything; in that case Mushraf may even plainly refuse to take off his uniform at the end of the year. But if democrats win, the bori bistra of this war on everything will be rolled down and US will adopt a more diplomatic approach towards achiving its imperialistic goals rather than confrontational one. In that case the some of Bush`s so called partners in crime will have to go. Musharaf is one of them. In that case Musharaf will start wearing sherwani at the end of the year and keep committing crimes against his own people to obey puppet-masters` will. Either way Pakistan is fcuked.