My SAARC Diary

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Arjunm

``Terrorist State?`` What terrorist state? I think it is you hindus who have to get their heads out of their asses now. Once before I have interacted with you about your criteria of measuring the credibility of a state with the measuring tool of American approval. If this is the criteria we are going to use then probably you know that this terrorist state is one of the greatest recipient of American financial and military aid recently. The most interesting thing is the fact that this aid also includes an arms deal as well and even more inetersting is the fact that Americans will pay for this deal for next five years. Now just imagine that you go to a car dealership, chose a car and when you are ready to pay the dealer tells you that the car is on the house - no need to pay. Now imagine it starts happening at every store you go to and people tell you that there is no need to pay because everything is on the house. That is exactly what is happening to Paksitan at this moment. It`s debts are being paid off, arms are for free, and pocket money is on top of that. It doesn`t happen to terrorist states ok? Your banya mind should understand this logic very well. So, are the deals that are being offered to Paksitan are also being offered to India as well? No. Your approval rating and credibility is non existent if we use your criteria - well almost. Yes, India is being offered with arms deals as well but how. India will have to put probably 5 million additional prostitutes on the streets of Bombay and probably 10 million more people will have to live on the footpaths of Calcutta to put one Indian pilot behind one F-16, right? Now wake up and smell the coffee ( after you get your head out of your daal khor ass). And by the way some of the arms that are coming to Paksitan, are coming from S. Dakota. Read newspapers - not the hindu ones but the joos ones, ok?

Ref Maasanamuthu #27

[It`s no surprise that the petty shopkeeper party doesn`t understand what secularism is.]

We know what your brand of secularism is. It is eating at Iftar parties and saying ``Eating rice conjee is good for one`s health`` but deriding Hindu beliefs. It is presiding over a public meeting with a Bishop and a Mullah in atendance and saying that according to a Persian dictionary the word ``Hindu`` means a thief. It is calling the wearing of holy ash on one`s forehead a stupid superstition but saying that when DMK party hack PT Rajan does the same thing, it merely happens to be a family tradition.

Answer this question which of course your buddy K. Veeramani refused to answer: as an atheist do you believe that only Siva, Rama and Krishna do not exist but are creations of Brahmins to rule over the public or do you believe that Allah and Jehovah are also frauds foisted on the unsuspecting public by control freaks named Muhammad and Jesus respectively? Come on, tell us what you think. Others on Chowk have already challenged your intellectual honesty and this would be a great opportunity for you to prove that you have an iota of sincerity left in you.

[How can anyone claim to speak for hindus or muslims as a whole?]

But Dravidians is a different story. The Great Intellectual claimed to speak for all Dravidians and demanded a Dravida Nadu comprising of Andhra, Karnataka, Kerala and Tamil Nadu though there were no takers in any of the four states for secession from India.

[The job of the government is to provide opportunities to all citizens (taking into account that some may need more help than others) paying no heed to their personal beliefs.]

I like the way how you slipped in that bit about ``taking into account that some may need more help than others``. Are you talking about somebody who is handicapped in some way such as being affected by polio, rheumatic heart disease or congenital blindness? No, of course not. You are talking about the walking brain-dead such as yourself. Even better, you like the idea of stealing anything that might legitimately be set aside for the Dalits.

[Secular muslims don`t need muslims to represent them....]

Ha, ha, ha. Thanks for the laugh. Why don`t you tell this to Doctor Artist Leader the Fund of Compassion who ran Nagore Hanifa, a Tamil Muslim famous for his recording of Muslim devotional songs, as his party`s candidate in the Vaniyambadi constituency just because Muslims are in a majority (not just a plurality) in that place?

[..... and the same goes for secular hindus.]

Ho, ho, ho. Thanks for more laughs. Is that why the DMK puts up as candidates a Nadar in Tiruchendur, a Thevar in Ramanathapuram or a Vanniyar in South Arcot?

Hey, tell you what. Let us see if you will vote for a Brahmin candidate for election. I even got a name for you: Mani Shankar Aiyer. Yep, go vote for him in the next election.

[You can always reject the leaders chosen for you by not voting for them.]

But that would mean one would have to think. In your case, all your thoughts are nothing but the racist views of Doctor Artist Leader the Fund of Compassion.

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Ref stuka #29

[The subsidies of the Haj are repeatedly cited as a major irritant in Hindu-Muslim relations and yet the author is asked if she will only be satisfied when all Haj subsides are removed? Seems to be a case of Heads I win, Tails you lose. Esp when no one mentions the subsidies given to Kailash Yatras.]

STOP YOUR LIES RIGHT NOW.

I looked at the Ministry of External Affairs website dealing with the Kailash pilgrimage last year and it makes it very clear that the pilgrims are responsible for all travel expenditures and the the Government acts as a clearinghouse for Chinese visas and selects pilgrims by lottery. This information has been posted on Chowk before.

SO UNLESS YOU HAVE EVIDENCE OF SUBSIDIES FOR THE KAILAS-MANASAROVAR YATRA, YOU SHOULD STOP THIS FALSE PROPAGANDA IMMEDIATELY.

Pankaj
``Any real peace can only arise out of fundamental shifts in the perception(religious)``
This is very true. However, lack of overt-covert hostilities will have ensure that politicians seeking expediency will not fish in (communal) troubled water that easily (in India, its less an issue in Pakistan due to electoral irrelevance of minorities). That is the biggest potential peace dividend overall. The war of thousand cuts hurts the most in this area and not in troop deployments in Kashmir (as Romair thinks) viewed from a larger Indian context.

Both countries aren`t relocating to some place else any time soon. Thus, they can`t live with each other and can`t live without each other. Both sides have made tremendous strides in making the other side trust it, so please let`s not dilute this optimism. Let`s not forget that both Vajapyee and Musharraf are responsible for where we are. It`s their peace efforts that have induced both sides to have interaction. I agree to an extent with #40 but I must correct you that not all people in Pakistan share hatred for India. There is certainly no shortage of those who are hostile towards India, but they are probably uneducated and religious fanatics, totally unaware of the history that both neighbors share. Indians and Pakistanis have a histroy together!

Ref Urstruly#41

[``Security drill``, my ass.]

Me speak bad Angrezi. Do you say Airport Security drilled your ass? Please explain kindly. Thankoo.

plats8

There is no need to be sarcastic, instead you should say what is on your mind. In my previous posts I was merely reminding us the ugliness of the hypocricsy and dishonesty that we as two people are capable of exhibiting towards each other. I was merely pointing out towards this mia kulpa of hindu media that has happened just overnight. Don`t you find it perplexing whether your media was telling the truth a few days ago or is it telling the truth now. Don`t you even question? Just a few days ago your media was portraying Paksitan and Islam as the source of all evil and now we are brothers?

Let me explain it by a parable. Once there was a man whose son got bit by a snake. The boy died. The man saw the snake and tried to kill but could only amputate its tail. The snake ran away. Both, the snake and that man were furious at their respective losses. After that, snake and that man tried several times to kill each other but neither could succeed. Years after that and tired of such perpetual hostility the snake offered the man truce. The man laughed and rejected snakes offer saying that as long as you remember your tail and I remember my son, there cannot be peace. Your nature will keep compelling you to bite me and mine will to crush your head.

Now, way the hatefilled and religiously prejudiced Indian media has changed its stance can only be compared to the shedding of snakes skin. The new skin may look pretty and enticing to some but most know that how deadly the venom it still has. The venom that spurs its nature to bite.

So my friend lets be honest with each other. As long as we will keep remembering our respective loses and miseries that they caused there cannot be peace. We cannot change our nature. Our nature can only be undone if our original grievances are undone first. You have to return our son and we have to return your tail. Unless we have a vision and courage to do so, there cannot be peace. Peace without justice is impossible.

arjun 24

``Security drill``, my ass. The hindu media was telling the size of the underwears the ``Pakistani`` hijakers and terrorists were wearing while the plane was still in the air. It was no security drill - it was an attempt at drilling insecurity into already prejudiced and venomous Hindu minds.

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tahmed: ``What will all the India-Pakistan chowk warriors, cross-border spitters, and plain morons (``I was just following my governments propoganda line``) do once indo-pak relations are normalized?``

Every 4 months i drop by and find the same people passionately engaged in the same old boring discussions.

With the amount of time these idiots have dedicated to the ``my country is the coolest on earth`` debate, it seems they would go crazy if peace was established.

I however strongly suggest that even if peace is reached, (almost) everyone on chowk should meet somewhere in a kashmeri park and freely begin shooting eachother. I would kill to see all these pseudo S. Asian AMERICANS actuallty set foot in the region they cant stop blabbering about.

#28 by Romair on January 7, 2004 12:24pm PT

Where were you at the time the Paki army was bending before the feet of the Indian Generals while laying arms??

What will all the India-Pakistan chowk warriors, cross-border spitters, and plain morons (``I was just following my governments propoganda line``) do once indo-pak relations are normalized?

Will they, like the japanese fool who continued his own one man war for 20 years after WWII was over, continue their spitting contests on chowk?

Will the change in their government`s policies so confuse them that they`ll all go berserk and start chewing on their keyboards?

Or will they, perhaps, actually learn to walk and talk like grown men?

Wait for the next exciting episode of .... ``My government`s propoganda line, right or wrong!!``

Shorn of all the euphoria created by peacenicks, I am sceptical if anything of substance has come out of SAARC. A realist should always focus on the essentials and the fundamental causes behind a certain problem. And I dont see any significant change in the ground realities to warrant optimism- at least from India`s perspective. The rivalary between India and Pak is rooted in history and the intractable hostility arising out of adverse religious perceptions. All other issues are mere symptoms, not the disease. May be some issues would be temporarily shelved for want of stability and economics but the ``fundamental causes`` are likely to manifest themselves in some other muted form in future or perhaps in the same form as now but with renewed intensity. Or perhaps the tidal waves of economics may mitigate these ``fundamental causes`` as a better off person has greater fear of losing his hard earned money to ideologies. May be, but more likely may not.

The best one can ever hope between India and Pak is a state of non-aggression, overt or covert. Any real peace can only arise out of fundamental shifts in the perception(religious) between Indian and Pakistani populations at large, not peacenicks. Things like these are very slow paced; perceptions rooted in centuries of hostility do not go away in decades.

I know I am being a spoilsport here, what will all the euphoric stories being weaved by the peacenicks in press. I hope to be wrong in this case but I am afraid my scepticism is rooted ``fundamental causes`` which are only too real. ``Hindu pani, Muslim pani`` is not totally fictictious.

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