My SAARC Diary
Farzana Versey January 6, 2004
#178 Posted by harimau on January 27, 2004 11:02:53 pm
Ref nb #177
[Harimau,
On another board, I started asking your old mate soysauce what the names you call him meant. He didn`t like it much. Translations would be useful!]
Soysauce is so ashamed of his origins that he has chosen to call himself by an Oriental sauce. I generally refer to him as Inji-kari-kuzhambu (Ginger Goat Curry Sauce), Karuvattu-Kuzhambu (Dried Fish-Curry Sauce) or Meen-kuzhambu (Fish Curry Sauce), these being the food items he grew up with and certainly not soy sauce.
I also refer to him as Maasanamuthu (Smashaan Moti - Pearl of the Graveyard), Sudalaikkannu, etc. These are again typical names from Tamil Nadu which of course he and his ilk have given up, instead calling themselves Tamil Arasan (Tamil King), Tamil Mani (Tamil Jewel), Anbarasan (Love King), etc., if they don`t pick names of long-dead kings like Kulamutrathuthunjiya Killivalavan or Nedunchezhiyan. Of these names, the funniest is Tamil Kudimagan which can be variously translated as Tamil Citizen, Tamil Drunkard or Tamil Chu Ti Ah -- I am NOT kidding you!
The real trouble with all these guys is that they are total fakes. They are at the most 3rd generation immigrants from Andhra or Karnataka who speak broken Telugu or Kannada at home but have no problem calling themselves Tamil King so that they can get preferential admission to professional schools. I mock them by saying that the only names left at this point are Tamil Ma-ki-galli, Tamil Behn-ki-galli, Tamil Fraud, Tamil Cheat, etc.
The truth of the matter is that this a$$-kisser appears so REASONABLE to the Mullah Brigade on Chowk that they take his side. What they don`t understand is that this guy is an out-and-out opportunist and if at all Pakistan is justified because of the threat of majoritarianism, the true face of majoritarianism is that of this idiot and people like him.
[As I said to him, just a few interactions with him made me realise that the slanging matches that go on aren`t just your fault as people often make out!]
Thanks. But all it takes is a careful reading of this idiot`s posts and refusal to reply to points raised by others to understand the truth of the matter. True to his two-faced shamelessness, he proclaims that he is an atheist but doesn`t tell us if Allah is also a fraud... for fear that the Mullah Brigade will turn on him!
[The drama about the Haj subsidy versus the Kailash yatra made some things clear though-some people went on ranting even when it was clear that they had nothing to back them up. It is this attitude that upsets me, and many others, why should the standards be so different? I still think majority fundamentalism is inherently more dangerous than minority fundamentalism because of the power dynamics, but we have a situation where Hindus asking for a fair go are treated as fundamentalists. Unfortunately, people like Gujjubania don`t make it any easier for the rest of us-he neds to hit his books with a vengeance NOW.]
I agree with you. The real trouble is that so many lies are spread by the newspapers and newsmagazines in the name of secularism that people (Hindus) are tired of secularism. The day we eliminate the pseudo-secularists` propaganda would be a golden day in India`s history. No matter what people say about the BJP, the fact is India is better today than 5 years ago. We couldn`t say that about the Congress misrule of some 35 years.
[Harimau,
On another board, I started asking your old mate soysauce what the names you call him meant. He didn`t like it much. Translations would be useful!]
Soysauce is so ashamed of his origins that he has chosen to call himself by an Oriental sauce. I generally refer to him as Inji-kari-kuzhambu (Ginger Goat Curry Sauce), Karuvattu-Kuzhambu (Dried Fish-Curry Sauce) or Meen-kuzhambu (Fish Curry Sauce), these being the food items he grew up with and certainly not soy sauce.
I also refer to him as Maasanamuthu (Smashaan Moti - Pearl of the Graveyard), Sudalaikkannu, etc. These are again typical names from Tamil Nadu which of course he and his ilk have given up, instead calling themselves Tamil Arasan (Tamil King), Tamil Mani (Tamil Jewel), Anbarasan (Love King), etc., if they don`t pick names of long-dead kings like Kulamutrathuthunjiya Killivalavan or Nedunchezhiyan. Of these names, the funniest is Tamil Kudimagan which can be variously translated as Tamil Citizen, Tamil Drunkard or Tamil Chu Ti Ah -- I am NOT kidding you!
The real trouble with all these guys is that they are total fakes. They are at the most 3rd generation immigrants from Andhra or Karnataka who speak broken Telugu or Kannada at home but have no problem calling themselves Tamil King so that they can get preferential admission to professional schools. I mock them by saying that the only names left at this point are Tamil Ma-ki-galli, Tamil Behn-ki-galli, Tamil Fraud, Tamil Cheat, etc.
The truth of the matter is that this a$$-kisser appears so REASONABLE to the Mullah Brigade on Chowk that they take his side. What they don`t understand is that this guy is an out-and-out opportunist and if at all Pakistan is justified because of the threat of majoritarianism, the true face of majoritarianism is that of this idiot and people like him.
[As I said to him, just a few interactions with him made me realise that the slanging matches that go on aren`t just your fault as people often make out!]
Thanks. But all it takes is a careful reading of this idiot`s posts and refusal to reply to points raised by others to understand the truth of the matter. True to his two-faced shamelessness, he proclaims that he is an atheist but doesn`t tell us if Allah is also a fraud... for fear that the Mullah Brigade will turn on him!
[The drama about the Haj subsidy versus the Kailash yatra made some things clear though-some people went on ranting even when it was clear that they had nothing to back them up. It is this attitude that upsets me, and many others, why should the standards be so different? I still think majority fundamentalism is inherently more dangerous than minority fundamentalism because of the power dynamics, but we have a situation where Hindus asking for a fair go are treated as fundamentalists. Unfortunately, people like Gujjubania don`t make it any easier for the rest of us-he neds to hit his books with a vengeance NOW.]
I agree with you. The real trouble is that so many lies are spread by the newspapers and newsmagazines in the name of secularism that people (Hindus) are tired of secularism. The day we eliminate the pseudo-secularists` propaganda would be a golden day in India`s history. No matter what people say about the BJP, the fact is India is better today than 5 years ago. We couldn`t say that about the Congress misrule of some 35 years.
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#177 Posted by nb on January 17, 2004 8:38:27 am
Hey Farzana,
Sorry for the late intrusion, I have a non-functioning computer. I just wanted to say that perhaps the point about Irfan Pathan is not that the BCCI has done him a great favour. Perhaps it is that if discrimination against Muslims was that rife, he wouldn`t have stood a chance. What I think is more important is that Irfan has found it in his heart to put the events of the riots at least temporarily behind him and give everything for India. It was a joy to see him and Parthiv Patel exchange high-fives. This is what makes me think India will overcome.
Harimau,
On another board, I started asking your old mate soysauce what the names you call him meant. He didn`t like it much. Translations would be useful! As I said to him, just a few interactions with him made me realise that the slanging matches that go on aren`t just your fault as people often make out! The drama about the Haj subsidy versus the Kailash yatra made some things clear though-some people went on ranting even when it was clear that they had nothing to back them up. It is this attitude that upsets me, and many others, why should the standards be so different? I still think majority fundamentalism is inherently more dangerous than minority fundamentalism because of the power dynamics, but we have a situation where Hindus asking for a fair go are treated as fundamentalists. Unfortunately, people like Gujjubania don`t make it any easier for the rest of us-he neds to hit his books with a vengeance NOW.
Sorry for the late intrusion, I have a non-functioning computer. I just wanted to say that perhaps the point about Irfan Pathan is not that the BCCI has done him a great favour. Perhaps it is that if discrimination against Muslims was that rife, he wouldn`t have stood a chance. What I think is more important is that Irfan has found it in his heart to put the events of the riots at least temporarily behind him and give everything for India. It was a joy to see him and Parthiv Patel exchange high-fives. This is what makes me think India will overcome.
Harimau,
On another board, I started asking your old mate soysauce what the names you call him meant. He didn`t like it much. Translations would be useful! As I said to him, just a few interactions with him made me realise that the slanging matches that go on aren`t just your fault as people often make out! The drama about the Haj subsidy versus the Kailash yatra made some things clear though-some people went on ranting even when it was clear that they had nothing to back them up. It is this attitude that upsets me, and many others, why should the standards be so different? I still think majority fundamentalism is inherently more dangerous than minority fundamentalism because of the power dynamics, but we have a situation where Hindus asking for a fair go are treated as fundamentalists. Unfortunately, people like Gujjubania don`t make it any easier for the rest of us-he neds to hit his books with a vengeance NOW.
#176 Posted by mumbaikar on January 16, 2004 8:16:24 am
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#175 Posted by mumbaikar on January 15, 2004 7:02:43 am
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#174 Posted by harimau on January 14, 2004 7:27:17 am
Ref Sangilikkaruppan #160
[Don`t you wish he`d at least provide a translation? His vocabulary has ranged from motherf***** to names of various non-veg dishes.]
Well, as I tirelessly point out, we are waiting for YOUR translation of the song ``Ottakattha kattikko``. As to the ma-ki-galli, remember that Tamil Mo***** is about the only name you guys haven`t adopted in your zeal to prove your pride in Tamil heritage and I thought you should take it as your own name!
[You can date him from his use of language. He`s from the last generation being probably at least 50 years old.]
Don`t worry about the specifics of the language. This IS the language of folks like you. I have heard a guy say in Tamil, ``What if I don`t get an H1 visa? I care for it as much as I care about losing my hair (mayirae pochchu?)?`` in a restaurant in Fremont, California loud enough for me to hear. For those of you not versed in the street lingo of Tamil Nadu, the reference to hair here is not to the hair on one`s head about which of course one cares very much!
By the way, Mangal Pande when he was about to be hanged called on his fellow Sepoys to kill the ``behnc*dh`` British. Anyone who uses behn ki galli today is NOT 160 years old!
[Harimau chasing me here is like my dog who likes to chase cars. It`s thrilling to my dog and he feels he really chased the car away whereas to the car all this barking and chasing makes no difference. Someday I hope Harimau will really grow up.]
So, when do you plan to tell simpletons like Sridhar (your word for him, remember?) if you think Allah and Jehovah are figments of the imagination too? Or do you recognize that saying that will cut the support you get from the Pak mullah brigade on the Chowk and so are willing to be atheist only with regard to Hindu gods?
How about Karuppannasamy, Ayyanar, Ellaiamman, Mariamma and Madurai Veeran? Would you be willing to tell your villagers that they are also non-existent? But I must caution you, these are NOT brahminical gods but gods created by people of your own caste. So watch what you say!
[Don`t you wish he`d at least provide a translation? His vocabulary has ranged from motherf***** to names of various non-veg dishes.]
Well, as I tirelessly point out, we are waiting for YOUR translation of the song ``Ottakattha kattikko``. As to the ma-ki-galli, remember that Tamil Mo***** is about the only name you guys haven`t adopted in your zeal to prove your pride in Tamil heritage and I thought you should take it as your own name!
[You can date him from his use of language. He`s from the last generation being probably at least 50 years old.]
Don`t worry about the specifics of the language. This IS the language of folks like you. I have heard a guy say in Tamil, ``What if I don`t get an H1 visa? I care for it as much as I care about losing my hair (mayirae pochchu?)?`` in a restaurant in Fremont, California loud enough for me to hear. For those of you not versed in the street lingo of Tamil Nadu, the reference to hair here is not to the hair on one`s head about which of course one cares very much!
By the way, Mangal Pande when he was about to be hanged called on his fellow Sepoys to kill the ``behnc*dh`` British. Anyone who uses behn ki galli today is NOT 160 years old!
[Harimau chasing me here is like my dog who likes to chase cars. It`s thrilling to my dog and he feels he really chased the car away whereas to the car all this barking and chasing makes no difference. Someday I hope Harimau will really grow up.]
So, when do you plan to tell simpletons like Sridhar (your word for him, remember?) if you think Allah and Jehovah are figments of the imagination too? Or do you recognize that saying that will cut the support you get from the Pak mullah brigade on the Chowk and so are willing to be atheist only with regard to Hindu gods?
How about Karuppannasamy, Ayyanar, Ellaiamman, Mariamma and Madurai Veeran? Would you be willing to tell your villagers that they are also non-existent? But I must caution you, these are NOT brahminical gods but gods created by people of your own caste. So watch what you say!
#173 Posted by dost_mittar on January 13, 2004 12:01:00 pm
stuka, harimou:
Is calling each other a Nehruvian an insult these days?:-)
Is calling each other a Nehruvian an insult these days?:-)
#172 Posted by sadna on January 13, 2004 11:11:39 am
MaheshG2 #169, mohar11
Actually Mr Jinnah disapproved of HIS daughter`s marriage to a Parsi and broke off relations with her at the time. But of course that was natural in a Muslim parent whose child married a nonMuslim, didnot make him a communalist.
Rather simplemindedly, you are missing the sad unpalateable truth about Ms Farzana. Any nonMuslim who doesnot bend over backwards to placate Muslims is a communalist. By this definition, no Muslim can ever be communalist, whatever he or she does/says. Get it?
``When I speak up against the Pope, the Hindus don’t have any major problems. ``
By the above definition, your religion is more relevant on any subject than what you are saying about that subject. Hence your disagreement with her on any subject will always be cast as a communal Hindu thing. So you have to either agree with her always or change your religion if you want to really discuss stuff.
Actually Mr Jinnah disapproved of HIS daughter`s marriage to a Parsi and broke off relations with her at the time. But of course that was natural in a Muslim parent whose child married a nonMuslim, didnot make him a communalist.
Rather simplemindedly, you are missing the sad unpalateable truth about Ms Farzana. Any nonMuslim who doesnot bend over backwards to placate Muslims is a communalist. By this definition, no Muslim can ever be communalist, whatever he or she does/says. Get it?
``When I speak up against the Pope, the Hindus don’t have any major problems. ``
By the above definition, your religion is more relevant on any subject than what you are saying about that subject. Hence your disagreement with her on any subject will always be cast as a communal Hindu thing. So you have to either agree with her always or change your religion if you want to really discuss stuff.
#171 Posted by arjun_m on January 13, 2004 9:08:48 am
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#170 Posted by MaheshG2 on January 13, 2004 7:13:44 am
Then some of you did not agree, so I gave the context of another leader, Nehru, again using my own column to illustrate my opinion.
How does trashing Nehru uphold your position of defending Jinnah?
I do not ask anyone to toe my line of thinking; this is how I feel, that is all. If it is seen as a restricted vision then the responses are equally, if not more, restricted. When I speak up against the Pope, the Hindus don’t have any major problems. Why is that so? And Mahesh, anyone who has read the article on this board cannot accuse me of what you are doing. Here is an example of ‘objectivity’. Tough to digest?
Have you criticized the pope? Have you ever criticized Jinnah? Then what objectivity are you talking about? You obviously are brushing aside Jinnah`s mistakes as anamolies yet Nehru`s are his defining points. Nehru is a communalist because he was unhappy with his daughter`s marriage to a parsi. Jinnah is a secularist inspite of calling for direct action day which resulted in the death of millions of Hindus and Muslims because he uttered some inanities about Hindu/Muslim brotherhood at some point in his life. The only consistency I see in your articles is ``Let`s see what the majority of Indians` viewpoint is. Hmm. Let`s trash that viewpoint. ``
Your sum total of arguments.
A did x in small doses and y in large amounts. ``x`` is communalist in nature and that`s why A is communalist.
B did x in large amounts and x in small doses. ``y`` is secularist in nature and that`s B is secularist.
Regarding your response to Mohar11
Mohar`s question was how can you respect anybody if you don`t agree with his principles? Why deflect his question by bringing in Vajpayee.
And as a sidenote to your Vajpayee question:
Vajpayee has very good principles. He is a stanch secularist and progressionist. He is only being an opportunist when he is defending Modi.
How does trashing Nehru uphold your position of defending Jinnah?
I do not ask anyone to toe my line of thinking; this is how I feel, that is all. If it is seen as a restricted vision then the responses are equally, if not more, restricted. When I speak up against the Pope, the Hindus don’t have any major problems. Why is that so? And Mahesh, anyone who has read the article on this board cannot accuse me of what you are doing. Here is an example of ‘objectivity’. Tough to digest?
Have you criticized the pope? Have you ever criticized Jinnah? Then what objectivity are you talking about? You obviously are brushing aside Jinnah`s mistakes as anamolies yet Nehru`s are his defining points. Nehru is a communalist because he was unhappy with his daughter`s marriage to a parsi. Jinnah is a secularist inspite of calling for direct action day which resulted in the death of millions of Hindus and Muslims because he uttered some inanities about Hindu/Muslim brotherhood at some point in his life. The only consistency I see in your articles is ``Let`s see what the majority of Indians` viewpoint is. Hmm. Let`s trash that viewpoint. ``
Your sum total of arguments.
A did x in small doses and y in large amounts. ``x`` is communalist in nature and that`s why A is communalist.
B did x in large amounts and x in small doses. ``y`` is secularist in nature and that`s B is secularist.
Regarding your response to Mohar11
Mohar`s question was how can you respect anybody if you don`t agree with his principles? Why deflect his question by bringing in Vajpayee.
And as a sidenote to your Vajpayee question:
Vajpayee has very good principles. He is a stanch secularist and progressionist. He is only being an opportunist when he is defending Modi.
#169 Posted by mohar11 on January 13, 2004 7:13:44 am
#165 by FarzanaVersey
//..I provide you with the following statements made by the prime minister of India…do tell me what are the principles he agrees with and what he follows? This would be a good benchmark...//
Who knows what principles Vajpayee follows! He said those awful things you quoted. So he is a bad person with very bad ideas. But then he is not in the same stature as Jinnah, is he? He is just a dirty politician trying to get votes. We are talking about Jinnah here - remember!!
I think - once again - you are twisting the argument. We are not debating who follows>/i> what principle. The original point was that why do you admire Jinnah if you do NOT agree with his principles?
//..I provide you with the following statements made by the prime minister of India…do tell me what are the principles he agrees with and what he follows? This would be a good benchmark...//
Who knows what principles Vajpayee follows! He said those awful things you quoted. So he is a bad person with very bad ideas. But then he is not in the same stature as Jinnah, is he? He is just a dirty politician trying to get votes. We are talking about Jinnah here - remember!!
I think - once again - you are twisting the argument. We are not debating who follows>/i> what principle. The original point was that why do you admire Jinnah if you do NOT agree with his principles?
#168 Posted by gujjubania on January 13, 2004 6:04:49 am
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#167 Posted by ballukhan on January 13, 2004 6:04:49 am
Anti-Christian Orgs and Persons in India & Bombay
http://www.geocities.com/orthopapism/antichristian.html
somebody likes FV!!
#166 Posted by ballukhan on January 13, 2004 1:37:37 am
Hon!! Can you turn off your Saas Bhi Kabhi (...or whatever Mumbaiya serial) please!
#165 Posted by FarzanaVersey on January 13, 2004 12:16:00 am
This looks like some despotic regime here on Chowk…”Criticise Jinnah, don’t criticise Nehru, do this, do that…”. Every person has the right to express their opinions. Someone mentioned Jinnah here in one of their responses, I said I admired him…I was asked why, so I posted one of my columns (and not some cut-paste from another writer to justify my views. Then some of you did not agree, so I gave the context of another leader, Nehru, again using my own column to illustrate my opinion.
I do not ask anyone to toe my line of thinking; this is how I feel, that is all. If it is seen as a restricted vision then the responses are equally, if not more, restricted. When I speak up against the Pope, the Hindus don’t have any major problems. Why is that so? And Mahesh, anyone who has read the article on this board cannot accuse me of what you are doing. Here is an example of ‘objectivity’. Tough to digest?
#150 by mohar11:
[People admire Gandhi because they agree with his principle of non-violence...... Following that principle is a whole different issue - we are not even going there. Similarly, when people say they admire Jinnah, it indicates that they agree with his principles. Otherwise it doesn`t make sense.]
I provide you with the following statements made by the prime minister of India…do tell me what are the principles he agrees with and what he follows? This would be a good benchmark.
“I am his (Modi’s) advocate and it is my duty the plead his case.”
“What happened in Gujarat? If the attack on the Sabarmati had not happened, then what happened later (communal violence) would not have happened.”
“Muslims the world over do not want to mingle with other communities. They simply do not want to live in peace. The countries where there are Muslim populations live in perpetual fear of Islamic militancy.”
The views of lesser mortals have far less impact than those of our leaders. Yet, you will not utter a word against them.
[Following his principles comes next ... and by god.... that would be a big can of worms. We all hope nobody ever follows his principles again.]
From this article itself: “The welfare of all citizens in a democracy rests on the government in power. The last time a party was formed for the welfare of a community, we had another country.”
#149 by harimau:
War booty? And you say you respect women and would not treat me as a commodity…
I had not read the Evelyn Waugh statement, but it sure is funny. Not apt though, for I cannot match the largeness of Churchill’s girth or mind. So the little that is benign is sufficient to envelop all of me:)
#160 by soysauce:
As I see it, since he has mentioned that he is turning over a new leaf, perhaps this obsession is the equivalent of a crime of passion! I seriously suggest that the two of you start a ‘Chennai Chowk’ link…some ‘saapat’ for thought…
#161 by tahmed32:
[FV: glad you approve of going to hawaii for hajj. could you pull a few strings with your indian muslim leaders and send self and zafar some hajj funds for this purpose? (we`ll need extra funds to buy drinks for the local hoors).]
The only time I pulled some strings, was when I was trying to learn puppetry. However, there is a problem in here re. Indian Muslim leaders…they might want to join in. I don’t know about you, but I think Zafar could manage to do a rather nice, “Drink to thine eyes” stuff and save on the sharaab on the hoors…
- - -
Very few here are in a position to discuss “class”. This board was pretty much devoid of animosity. Trust some to drum up noise to draw attention to themselves. And then they say…who cares about FV? Honey, do me a favour and do what sensible people do: If you don’t care, then don’t waste your time. It reveals desperation. I hate to see that in so-called rational folk.
Thanks to the rest for reading and responding. Harimau, there is life beyond Periyar and Perrier…should you and soysauce ever visit Mumbai and my country (!!), do let me know. A glass of dragon’s blood (it is a cocktail and not from my veins!) awaits you…
I do not ask anyone to toe my line of thinking; this is how I feel, that is all. If it is seen as a restricted vision then the responses are equally, if not more, restricted. When I speak up against the Pope, the Hindus don’t have any major problems. Why is that so? And Mahesh, anyone who has read the article on this board cannot accuse me of what you are doing. Here is an example of ‘objectivity’. Tough to digest?
#150 by mohar11:
[People admire Gandhi because they agree with his principle of non-violence...... Following that principle is a whole different issue - we are not even going there. Similarly, when people say they admire Jinnah, it indicates that they agree with his principles. Otherwise it doesn`t make sense.]
I provide you with the following statements made by the prime minister of India…do tell me what are the principles he agrees with and what he follows? This would be a good benchmark.
“I am his (Modi’s) advocate and it is my duty the plead his case.”
“What happened in Gujarat? If the attack on the Sabarmati had not happened, then what happened later (communal violence) would not have happened.”
“Muslims the world over do not want to mingle with other communities. They simply do not want to live in peace. The countries where there are Muslim populations live in perpetual fear of Islamic militancy.”
The views of lesser mortals have far less impact than those of our leaders. Yet, you will not utter a word against them.
[Following his principles comes next ... and by god.... that would be a big can of worms. We all hope nobody ever follows his principles again.]
From this article itself: “The welfare of all citizens in a democracy rests on the government in power. The last time a party was formed for the welfare of a community, we had another country.”
#149 by harimau:
War booty? And you say you respect women and would not treat me as a commodity…
I had not read the Evelyn Waugh statement, but it sure is funny. Not apt though, for I cannot match the largeness of Churchill’s girth or mind. So the little that is benign is sufficient to envelop all of me:)
#160 by soysauce:
As I see it, since he has mentioned that he is turning over a new leaf, perhaps this obsession is the equivalent of a crime of passion! I seriously suggest that the two of you start a ‘Chennai Chowk’ link…some ‘saapat’ for thought…
#161 by tahmed32:
[FV: glad you approve of going to hawaii for hajj. could you pull a few strings with your indian muslim leaders and send self and zafar some hajj funds for this purpose? (we`ll need extra funds to buy drinks for the local hoors).]
The only time I pulled some strings, was when I was trying to learn puppetry. However, there is a problem in here re. Indian Muslim leaders…they might want to join in. I don’t know about you, but I think Zafar could manage to do a rather nice, “Drink to thine eyes” stuff and save on the sharaab on the hoors…
- - -
Very few here are in a position to discuss “class”. This board was pretty much devoid of animosity. Trust some to drum up noise to draw attention to themselves. And then they say…who cares about FV? Honey, do me a favour and do what sensible people do: If you don’t care, then don’t waste your time. It reveals desperation. I hate to see that in so-called rational folk.
Thanks to the rest for reading and responding. Harimau, there is life beyond Periyar and Perrier…should you and soysauce ever visit Mumbai and my country (!!), do let me know. A glass of dragon’s blood (it is a cocktail and not from my veins!) awaits you…
#164 Posted by ballukhan on January 12, 2004 11:22:38 pm
#147 by FarzanaVersey on January 12, 2004 1:48am PT
All this nonsense about Nehru would have been understandable if it was Sardar Khushwant Singh who had a first hand knowledge about these political figures.
But all this plain old bitching by FV about distant figures like Nehru basing itself upon coffee table rumours is just BS! Clearly shows her class!!
All this nonsense about Nehru would have been understandable if it was Sardar Khushwant Singh who had a first hand knowledge about these political figures.
But all this plain old bitching by FV about distant figures like Nehru basing itself upon coffee table rumours is just BS! Clearly shows her class!!
#163 Posted by sadna on January 12, 2004 1:45:14 pm
If Nehru had gotten himself buried, that would mean he planned to rise out of the grave someday. Now that`s modern and rational.
#162 Posted by jang on January 12, 2004 1:45:14 pm
Nehrus Last will and some commentary from a right-wing web site
``21. When I die, I should like my body to be cremated. If I die in a foreign country, my body should be cremated there and my ashes sent to Allahabad. A small handful of these ashes should be thrown in the Ganga and the major portion of them disposed of in the manner indicated below. No part of these ashes should be retained or preserved.
22. My desire to have a handful of my ashes thrown in the Ganga at Allahabad has no religious significance, so far as I am concerned. I have no religious sentiment in the matter. I have been attached to the Ganga and the Jumna rivers in Allahabad ever since my childhood and, as I have grown older, this attachment has also grown. I have watched their varying moods as the seasons changed, and have often thought of the history and myth and tradition and song and story that have become attached to them through the long ages and become part of the flowing waters. The Ganga, especially, is the river of India, beloved of her people, round which are intertwined her racial memories, her hopes and fears, her songs of triumph, her victories and her defeats. She has been a symbol of India`s age-long culture and civilization, ever-changing, ever-flowing and ever the same Ganga. She reminds me of the snow-covered peaks and the deep valleys of the Himalayas, which I have loved so much, and of the rich and vast plains below, where my life and work have been cast. Smiling and dancing in the morning sunlight, and dark and gloomy and full of mystery as the evening shadows fall; a narrow, slow and graceful stream in winter, and a vast roaring thing during the monsoon, broad-bosomed almost as the sea, and with something of the sea`s power to destroy, the Ganga has been to me a symbol and a memory of the past of India, running into the present, and flowing on to the great ocean of the future. And though I have discarded much of past tradition and custom, and am anxious that India should rid herself of all shackles that bind and constrain her and divide her people, and suppress vast numbers of them, and prevent the free development of the body and the spirit; though I seek all this, yet I do not wish to cut myself off from that past completely. I am proud of that great inheritance that has been, and is, ours, and I am conscious that I too, like all of us, am a link in that unbroken chain which goes back in the dawn of history in the immemorial past of India. That chain I would not break, for I treasure it and seek inspiration from it. And, as witness of this desire of mine and as my last homage to the great ocean that washes India`s shores.
23. The major portion of my ashes should, however, be disposed of otherwise. I want these to be carried high up into the air in an aeroplane and scattered from that height over the fields where the peasants of India toil, so that they might mingle with the dust and soil of India and become an indistinguishable part of India.
I have written this Will and Testament in New Delhi on the twenty-first day of June in the year Nineteen Hundred and Fifty-four.
Signed/ Jawaharlal Nehru
21 June, 1954
Attestor 1: Kailas Nath Katju
Attestor 2: N.R. Pillai
http://www.swordoftruth.com/swordoftruth/archives/byauthor/aghosh/watojn.html
``21. When I die, I should like my body to be cremated. If I die in a foreign country, my body should be cremated there and my ashes sent to Allahabad. A small handful of these ashes should be thrown in the Ganga and the major portion of them disposed of in the manner indicated below. No part of these ashes should be retained or preserved.
22. My desire to have a handful of my ashes thrown in the Ganga at Allahabad has no religious significance, so far as I am concerned. I have no religious sentiment in the matter. I have been attached to the Ganga and the Jumna rivers in Allahabad ever since my childhood and, as I have grown older, this attachment has also grown. I have watched their varying moods as the seasons changed, and have often thought of the history and myth and tradition and song and story that have become attached to them through the long ages and become part of the flowing waters. The Ganga, especially, is the river of India, beloved of her people, round which are intertwined her racial memories, her hopes and fears, her songs of triumph, her victories and her defeats. She has been a symbol of India`s age-long culture and civilization, ever-changing, ever-flowing and ever the same Ganga. She reminds me of the snow-covered peaks and the deep valleys of the Himalayas, which I have loved so much, and of the rich and vast plains below, where my life and work have been cast. Smiling and dancing in the morning sunlight, and dark and gloomy and full of mystery as the evening shadows fall; a narrow, slow and graceful stream in winter, and a vast roaring thing during the monsoon, broad-bosomed almost as the sea, and with something of the sea`s power to destroy, the Ganga has been to me a symbol and a memory of the past of India, running into the present, and flowing on to the great ocean of the future. And though I have discarded much of past tradition and custom, and am anxious that India should rid herself of all shackles that bind and constrain her and divide her people, and suppress vast numbers of them, and prevent the free development of the body and the spirit; though I seek all this, yet I do not wish to cut myself off from that past completely. I am proud of that great inheritance that has been, and is, ours, and I am conscious that I too, like all of us, am a link in that unbroken chain which goes back in the dawn of history in the immemorial past of India. That chain I would not break, for I treasure it and seek inspiration from it. And, as witness of this desire of mine and as my last homage to the great ocean that washes India`s shores.
23. The major portion of my ashes should, however, be disposed of otherwise. I want these to be carried high up into the air in an aeroplane and scattered from that height over the fields where the peasants of India toil, so that they might mingle with the dust and soil of India and become an indistinguishable part of India.
I have written this Will and Testament in New Delhi on the twenty-first day of June in the year Nineteen Hundred and Fifty-four.
Signed/ Jawaharlal Nehru
21 June, 1954
Attestor 1: Kailas Nath Katju
Attestor 2: N.R. Pillai
http://www.swordoftruth.com/swordoftruth/archives/byauthor/aghosh/watojn.html
#161 Posted by soysauce on January 12, 2004 11:09:08 am
#148 FV
I assume you will stop being casteist too and calling Soysauce names which I do not understand
Don`t you wish he`d at least provide a translation? His vocabulary has ranged from motherf***** to names of various non-veg dishes. You can date him from his use of language. He`s from the last generation being probably at least 50 years old.
Harimau chasing me here is like my dog who likes to chase cars. It`s thrilling to my dog and he feels he really chased the car away whereas to the car all this barking and chasing makes no difference. Someday I hope Harimau will really grow up.
I assume you will stop being casteist too and calling Soysauce names which I do not understand
Don`t you wish he`d at least provide a translation? His vocabulary has ranged from motherf***** to names of various non-veg dishes. You can date him from his use of language. He`s from the last generation being probably at least 50 years old.
Harimau chasing me here is like my dog who likes to chase cars. It`s thrilling to my dog and he feels he really chased the car away whereas to the car all this barking and chasing makes no difference. Someday I hope Harimau will really grow up.
#160 Posted by tahmed32 on January 12, 2004 11:09:08 am
FV: glad you approve of going to hawaii for hajj. could you pull a few strings with your indian muslim leaders and send self and zafar some hajj funds for this purpose? (we`ll need extra funds to buy drinks for the local hoors).
#159 Posted by rsridhar on January 12, 2004 11:08:37 am
re: farzana bibi`s last post on Nehru
``History judges people in many ways. One is to judge them
by their last words. In which case Nehru saw to it that
if the divine essence went out of the grasp of his fami-
ly, divine wrath would turn on the country. The archi-
tect laid the foundation in the form of a magic carpet.
He could pull the rug from under our feet anytime he
wished. ``
I am now totally disgusted with this woman. What the hell is she talking about? Is she losing her mind?
Nehru was a very egoistical person. His pride, even while accepting a lot of things that was good about the British (system of governance, secular outlook etc etc) rebelled against the idea of being ruled by the British. Much of the freedom struggle that he waged against the British was also a personal struggle against accepting anyone as his superior. To Linlithgow who was the Viceroy at the time and who gently chided Nehru for thinking India would ever be free and told him ``Mr Nehru, India would not be free in my life time, not even in your lifetime; it will not be free for the next several hundred years``, Nehru shouted back saying he would work for freedom of India in his own lifetime.
Nehru`s pride and ego again came in the way of forging a partnership with USA. USA at the time was saying: either you are with us or against us. It did not appreciate the concept of non-alignment.
Ultimately, Chinese invasion hurt Nehru more than anything else. His own pride and ego lay shattered after his concept of Panchsheel and firm belief that China would not betray him was falsified.
Is it then possible that a much mellowed Nehru turned towards Spirituality towards the wee end of his life? Hindu spirituality says that your journey starts the day you repent and start the process of introspection. I think it is a possibility.
Scattering of the ashes does not prove Nehru believed in voodism. Hindus believe that the universe is pervaded with divinity. scattering of ashes is symbolic of return to divinity. Nehru might have had other reasons for such a wish that i do not want to discuss here.
If farzana bibi cannot understand what went on in Nehru`s mind during the last months of his life (few of us can; i certainly do not confess to know any hidden secrets), at least give a great man some credit. The fact that such an article even gets published in some godforsaken paper (midday- i have never heard of it) shows the poor quality of journalism in India.
Sridhar
P.S: By the way, who cares what Farzana bibi writes. She has this habit of quoting her own article in Chowk. Does anyone else quote her in any other forum? I bet not.
``History judges people in many ways. One is to judge them
by their last words. In which case Nehru saw to it that
if the divine essence went out of the grasp of his fami-
ly, divine wrath would turn on the country. The archi-
tect laid the foundation in the form of a magic carpet.
He could pull the rug from under our feet anytime he
wished. ``
I am now totally disgusted with this woman. What the hell is she talking about? Is she losing her mind?
Nehru was a very egoistical person. His pride, even while accepting a lot of things that was good about the British (system of governance, secular outlook etc etc) rebelled against the idea of being ruled by the British. Much of the freedom struggle that he waged against the British was also a personal struggle against accepting anyone as his superior. To Linlithgow who was the Viceroy at the time and who gently chided Nehru for thinking India would ever be free and told him ``Mr Nehru, India would not be free in my life time, not even in your lifetime; it will not be free for the next several hundred years``, Nehru shouted back saying he would work for freedom of India in his own lifetime.
Nehru`s pride and ego again came in the way of forging a partnership with USA. USA at the time was saying: either you are with us or against us. It did not appreciate the concept of non-alignment.
Ultimately, Chinese invasion hurt Nehru more than anything else. His own pride and ego lay shattered after his concept of Panchsheel and firm belief that China would not betray him was falsified.
Is it then possible that a much mellowed Nehru turned towards Spirituality towards the wee end of his life? Hindu spirituality says that your journey starts the day you repent and start the process of introspection. I think it is a possibility.
Scattering of the ashes does not prove Nehru believed in voodism. Hindus believe that the universe is pervaded with divinity. scattering of ashes is symbolic of return to divinity. Nehru might have had other reasons for such a wish that i do not want to discuss here.
If farzana bibi cannot understand what went on in Nehru`s mind during the last months of his life (few of us can; i certainly do not confess to know any hidden secrets), at least give a great man some credit. The fact that such an article even gets published in some godforsaken paper (midday- i have never heard of it) shows the poor quality of journalism in India.
Sridhar
P.S: By the way, who cares what Farzana bibi writes. She has this habit of quoting her own article in Chowk. Does anyone else quote her in any other forum? I bet not.
#158 Posted by rsridhar on January 12, 2004 11:08:37 am
re: Jinnah
Jinnah is as misunderstood in India as Gandhi is in Pakistan.
Jiinah`s sense of purpose, dedication towards a muslim cause and his diehard honesty cannot be questioned. It is something that present day Paki politicians can emulate.
Having said that, sometimes the best intended actions have unforseen results. Jinnah would not have liked the way his Pakistan has shaped up today. Pak today is very different from Pak of 1947. His concept of fighting for a muslim homeland where muslims can breath freely without interference from Hindus seems a stupid concept in this era of globalisation. Gandhi seemed to have a more modern outlook when he wanted all religions to co-exist and was not afraid of western influence. India of today is invaded by western culture and imagery but need have nothing to fear as its values are firm and based on ancient wisdom and philosophy and cannot be blown away by the western culture.
Pak, which broke away from India on religous ground, has evolved a system where only certain values are allowed. The rest is not only shunned but even feared (hence the fear of Hindu culture and Bollywood). Such a system gives rise to sycophants, jehadis and rabid mullahs, who all abound in today`s Paksitan.
Today`s Pak is a legacy of Jinnah. While fashioning a muslim homeland, Jinnah left muslims in India into a even bigger minority. This then was his masterstroke. Solve the problems of muslim minority in India by leaving the minority population into a greater minority! Ask a muslim in India what he thinks of Jinnah. Few will thank Jinnah for the predicament that they are in today. They have to constantly prove their loyalty towards India and have to fight the fundamentalist hindus (the Modis of India) all the time. This is Jinnah`s legacy to the Indian muslims.
Sridhar
P.S: If farzana bibi is praising Jinnah, she is an exception. But then this woman, if i am not mistaken, has been brain dead for sometime now.
Jinnah is as misunderstood in India as Gandhi is in Pakistan.
Jiinah`s sense of purpose, dedication towards a muslim cause and his diehard honesty cannot be questioned. It is something that present day Paki politicians can emulate.
Having said that, sometimes the best intended actions have unforseen results. Jinnah would not have liked the way his Pakistan has shaped up today. Pak today is very different from Pak of 1947. His concept of fighting for a muslim homeland where muslims can breath freely without interference from Hindus seems a stupid concept in this era of globalisation. Gandhi seemed to have a more modern outlook when he wanted all religions to co-exist and was not afraid of western influence. India of today is invaded by western culture and imagery but need have nothing to fear as its values are firm and based on ancient wisdom and philosophy and cannot be blown away by the western culture.
Pak, which broke away from India on religous ground, has evolved a system where only certain values are allowed. The rest is not only shunned but even feared (hence the fear of Hindu culture and Bollywood). Such a system gives rise to sycophants, jehadis and rabid mullahs, who all abound in today`s Paksitan.
Today`s Pak is a legacy of Jinnah. While fashioning a muslim homeland, Jinnah left muslims in India into a even bigger minority. This then was his masterstroke. Solve the problems of muslim minority in India by leaving the minority population into a greater minority! Ask a muslim in India what he thinks of Jinnah. Few will thank Jinnah for the predicament that they are in today. They have to constantly prove their loyalty towards India and have to fight the fundamentalist hindus (the Modis of India) all the time. This is Jinnah`s legacy to the Indian muslims.
Sridhar
P.S: If farzana bibi is praising Jinnah, she is an exception. But then this woman, if i am not mistaken, has been brain dead for sometime now.
#157 Posted by MaheshG2 on January 12, 2004 11:08:37 am
What happened to Harish Nambiar? My best wishes for his recovery too.
#156 Posted by FarzanaVersey on January 12, 2004 9:42:48 am
Update on Harish Nambiar
I have just spoken with him. He is recovering. I have conveyed the sentiments of all the Chowkies to him and he has thanked all of you.
I have just spoken with him. He is recovering. I have conveyed the sentiments of all the Chowkies to him and he has thanked all of you.
#155 Posted by MaheshG2 on January 12, 2004 9:18:55 am
Farzana #147,
Can you list the points that Nehru a communalist and Jinnah not?
Will the points include Jinnah calling for direction action? Demanding a separate country for Muslims? Will it include why the rejection of the concept of Muslim League by Nehru makes him a communalist?
Why didn`t you classify Nehru as an opportunist? Using your logic can I call Modi and Thackeray a secularist merely giving in to opportunism?
Farzana #148,
Let`s see a criticism of Jinnah instead of just excuses on his behalf. Why do you have this urge to throw mud on people that Indians revere and sing hosannas about the people that they despise? Sure, an objective criticism would be very welcome. It`s entirely galling that your articles are geared only towards grating the majority Indian sentiment.
If an objective criticism of Nehru is warranted then so is of Jinnah. If objective criticism of India is warranted then so is of Pakistan. If objective criticism of the Hindu society is warranted then so is of the Muslim society. Yet, all I have seen from you are articles in the former category none in the latter. Instead of criticism, I only see excuses for Jinnah, Pakistan and the Muslim society. Have you never observed that of yourself?
#154 Posted by MaheshG2 on January 12, 2004 9:18:55 am
Farzana, I would like to see your response to Mohar #150.
#153 Posted by mohar11 on January 12, 2004 8:31:47 am
by FarzanaVersey
//..It may be difficult to digest the image of Nehru as a communalist, but in a larger sense he was...//
So Nehru was a communalist and Jinnah was not !!!!! Man - this is awful.
//..It may be difficult to digest the image of Nehru as a communalist, but in a larger sense he was...//
So Nehru was a communalist and Jinnah was not !!!!! Man - this is awful.
#152 Posted by gujjubania on January 12, 2004 7:41:25 am
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#151 Posted by harimau on January 12, 2004 7:41:07 am
Ref sadna #144
[`` Would not the Rs. 150 crores spent on the Haj subsidy be better spent on schooling Muslim children?``
Zactly right. Such a proposal has come from Muslims themselves, else the Indian govt. will face twin accusations of interceding in religious affairs of Muslims and trying to rob Muslims of their identity via state education.]
No; it would NOT come from any Muslim leader. Even the current reform of Haj subsidy once in a lifetime when mooted last year met with objections from the Haj Committee. Omar Abdullah (born I believe to a British mother) came out and said that meddling with the Haj subsidy in any way is politicizing it. So you can see that Muslim leadership in India has NO interest of the Muslim population at heart.
This is the genius of what passes for leadership in India.
[`` Would not the Rs. 150 crores spent on the Haj subsidy be better spent on schooling Muslim children?``
Zactly right. Such a proposal has come from Muslims themselves, else the Indian govt. will face twin accusations of interceding in religious affairs of Muslims and trying to rob Muslims of their identity via state education.]
No; it would NOT come from any Muslim leader. Even the current reform of Haj subsidy once in a lifetime when mooted last year met with objections from the Haj Committee. Omar Abdullah (born I believe to a British mother) came out and said that meddling with the Haj subsidy in any way is politicizing it. So you can see that Muslim leadership in India has NO interest of the Muslim population at heart.
This is the genius of what passes for leadership in India.
#150 Posted by harimau on January 12, 2004 7:41:06 am
Ref FarzanaVersey #148
[Cntradictions again! You presume a self-assured person would want to be a part of some harem and think you can offer her as nazar…you can give only what you got, Mr. Iyer…]
War booty... Mohammad bin Qasim is supposed to have captured Raja Dhahir`s daughters and shipped them off to Mesopotamia as `nazar`.
[I assume you will stop being casteist too and calling Soysauce names which I do not understand.]
If you notice, I flaunt my caste at Meen-kari-kuzhambu (aka Soysauce) like the matador flaunts a red rag in front of the bull. Maasanamuthu (to give him the name that is in traditional use in Tamil Nadu) has this deep inferiority complex and he wouldn`t hesitate to resort to dire punishment to maintain the caste structure so that he could feel superior to those below him in the hierarchy.
Look at this man`s pretensions. Here he is telling Sridhar on you board ``Why is Santa Not a Woman?`` on January 2, 2004
[rsridhar,
I prefer to remain an atheist ``who was trained to be reasonable`` to a simpleton like you.]
Yet there is no reply after 4 days to (My SAARC Diary on January 8, 2004) my question:
``as an atheist do you believe that only Siva, Rama and Krishna do not exist but are creations of Brahmins to rule over the public or do you believe that Allah and Jehovah are also frauds foisted on the unsuspecting public by control freaks named Muhammad and Jesus respectively? Come on, tell us what you think. Others on Chowk have already challenged your intellectual honesty and this would be a great opportunity for you to prove that you have an iota of sincerity left in you.``
I have seen enough of these idiots who actually believe they are Rationalist Thinkers when they happen to be self-serving buffoons. These are the same people who say, ``Hire me a brahmin lawyer on this case. I can`t afford to lose it.``
[…am recovering, there is less of me now to handle…though what has been dealt with was as benign as the rest of me ;) ]
Hah, hah, hah! You must have read Evelyn Waugh`s statement when it was reported that Randolph Churchill had been operated on for the removal of a tumour from his lung and it ws found to be benign: Waugh said that it has taken all the facilities available to modern science to find the one part of Randolph Churchill`s body that was not malignant!
[Cntradictions again! You presume a self-assured person would want to be a part of some harem and think you can offer her as nazar…you can give only what you got, Mr. Iyer…]
War booty... Mohammad bin Qasim is supposed to have captured Raja Dhahir`s daughters and shipped them off to Mesopotamia as `nazar`.
[I assume you will stop being casteist too and calling Soysauce names which I do not understand.]
If you notice, I flaunt my caste at Meen-kari-kuzhambu (aka Soysauce) like the matador flaunts a red rag in front of the bull. Maasanamuthu (to give him the name that is in traditional use in Tamil Nadu) has this deep inferiority complex and he wouldn`t hesitate to resort to dire punishment to maintain the caste structure so that he could feel superior to those below him in the hierarchy.
Look at this man`s pretensions. Here he is telling Sridhar on you board ``Why is Santa Not a Woman?`` on January 2, 2004
[rsridhar,
I prefer to remain an atheist ``who was trained to be reasonable`` to a simpleton like you.]
Yet there is no reply after 4 days to (My SAARC Diary on January 8, 2004) my question:
``as an atheist do you believe that only Siva, Rama and Krishna do not exist but are creations of Brahmins to rule over the public or do you believe that Allah and Jehovah are also frauds foisted on the unsuspecting public by control freaks named Muhammad and Jesus respectively? Come on, tell us what you think. Others on Chowk have already challenged your intellectual honesty and this would be a great opportunity for you to prove that you have an iota of sincerity left in you.``
I have seen enough of these idiots who actually believe they are Rationalist Thinkers when they happen to be self-serving buffoons. These are the same people who say, ``Hire me a brahmin lawyer on this case. I can`t afford to lose it.``
[…am recovering, there is less of me now to handle…though what has been dealt with was as benign as the rest of me ;) ]
Hah, hah, hah! You must have read Evelyn Waugh`s statement when it was reported that Randolph Churchill had been operated on for the removal of a tumour from his lung and it ws found to be benign: Waugh said that it has taken all the facilities available to modern science to find the one part of Randolph Churchill`s body that was not malignant!
#149 Posted by mohar11 on January 12, 2004 7:41:06 am
by FarzanaVersey
//..Re. how one can call someone principled if one does not necessarily agrees with his/her principles…tell me, how many people follow ahimsa and other Gandhi an tenets? And yet they do admire the Mahatma, don’t they? ..//
I think you are twisting the whole logic here - unintentionally perhaps. Let me clarify-
People admire Gandhi because they agree with his principle of non-violence...... Following that principle is a whole different issue - we are not even going there.
Similarly, when people say they admire Jinnah, it indicates that they agree with his principles. Otherwise it doesn`t make sense.
Following his principles comes next ... and by god.... that would be a big can of worms. We all hope nobody ever follows his principles again.
//..Re. how one can call someone principled if one does not necessarily agrees with his/her principles…tell me, how many people follow ahimsa and other Gandhi an tenets? And yet they do admire the Mahatma, don’t they? ..//
I think you are twisting the whole logic here - unintentionally perhaps. Let me clarify-
People admire Gandhi because they agree with his principle of non-violence...... Following that principle is a whole different issue - we are not even going there.
Similarly, when people say they admire Jinnah, it indicates that they agree with his principles. Otherwise it doesn`t make sense.
Following his principles comes next ... and by god.... that would be a big can of worms. We all hope nobody ever follows his principles again.
#148 Posted by FarzanaVersey on January 12, 2004 1:51:30 am
#134 by harimau:
When I talked about your confusion about the two statements, it meant that you were offering alcohol to someone who you thought was fit for a mullah’s harem and ought to be relegated to that jannat.
[Taking absinthe, on the other hand, seems to be a complicated process. There is some talk about dribbling a sugar solution into the drink. I got to find out and do it right.]
We Gujjus add sugar to everything…no wonder we do it so right! This does not mean I admire Jinnah because he was a son of the state; my parochialism is restricted to Mumbai. No one can mess with the mess that is my city.
[I wouldn`t presume to accept money for a woman with a great amount of self-assurance such as you. That would be almost like behaving like an uneducated Afghan and also treating you like a commodity.] and [ Think of yourself as a nazar from me to that great man Mullah Omar.]
Contradictions again! You presume a self-assured person would want to be a part of some harem and think you can offer her as nazar…you can give only what you got, Mr. Iyer…
[I don`t know what provoked that demand for an apology!]
See above and several such comments made over the last three years.
[I thought I would turn over a new leaf what with it being a new year and all that.]
Great. This is good for your soul. I assume you will stop being casteist too and calling Soysauce names which I do not understand.
[I also chanced to read your iLog the other day. I do hope you are completely recovered. From the surgery, I mean, not from your sense of injury ;)]
Is this a sympathy wave? You guys appease and then say we are asking for sops! (If I were to run for elections now, I just might win…) Thanks for asking though…am recovering, there is less of me now to handle…though what has been dealt with was as benign as the rest of me ;)
[{... and a chauffeur (Muslim, naturally!)-driven car at my service when I am in Chennai next.}
This one is easy to do. Would you like the Urdu speaker or the Tamil speaker?]
His Urdu would sound like Tamil anyway…so it does not matter. But he must be trained to laugh at all wisecracks, irrespective of whether he finds them funny or not/ understands them of not. He need not be Muslim (that was just a dig at you…) It is imperative however that he does not roll his eyes when he sees me pouring tomato ketchup over my utthapam…yes, he will have to sit and eat with me.
[Fair warning: absinthe makes the heart grow fonder!]
I can see that ;)
- - -
Zafar:
[Yeh mere koo bhi nahin malum ben! Stuka se poochthe so? Hau maa, roj sootaan pen ke naachtha ma! Sab toastvoast malum hoyenga usskoo.]
Aur main idhar ko sochee ke Stuka woh maatee-meley ko nachaata hoinga! Sunaa so ke jo sotan pen ke hiltaa, woh booaaathhhh aagey jaata…shukar hai apnaich aadmi hai…
Khush raho…
[Did Tahmed suggest Hawaii as alternative Haj destination? Tahmed, hamein bhi le chalna!]
Can’t wait to see you guys in straw skirts…according to Islamic tenets only unstitched clothes permitted during Haj!
#146 by MaheshG2:
When have I made excuses for `Muslim politicians`??? I have been critical of most.
When I talked about your confusion about the two statements, it meant that you were offering alcohol to someone who you thought was fit for a mullah’s harem and ought to be relegated to that jannat.
[Taking absinthe, on the other hand, seems to be a complicated process. There is some talk about dribbling a sugar solution into the drink. I got to find out and do it right.]
We Gujjus add sugar to everything…no wonder we do it so right! This does not mean I admire Jinnah because he was a son of the state; my parochialism is restricted to Mumbai. No one can mess with the mess that is my city.
[I wouldn`t presume to accept money for a woman with a great amount of self-assurance such as you. That would be almost like behaving like an uneducated Afghan and also treating you like a commodity.] and [ Think of yourself as a nazar from me to that great man Mullah Omar.]
Contradictions again! You presume a self-assured person would want to be a part of some harem and think you can offer her as nazar…you can give only what you got, Mr. Iyer…
[I don`t know what provoked that demand for an apology!]
See above and several such comments made over the last three years.
[I thought I would turn over a new leaf what with it being a new year and all that.]
Great. This is good for your soul. I assume you will stop being casteist too and calling Soysauce names which I do not understand.
[I also chanced to read your iLog the other day. I do hope you are completely recovered. From the surgery, I mean, not from your sense of injury ;)]
Is this a sympathy wave? You guys appease and then say we are asking for sops! (If I were to run for elections now, I just might win…) Thanks for asking though…am recovering, there is less of me now to handle…though what has been dealt with was as benign as the rest of me ;)
[{... and a chauffeur (Muslim, naturally!)-driven car at my service when I am in Chennai next.}
This one is easy to do. Would you like the Urdu speaker or the Tamil speaker?]
His Urdu would sound like Tamil anyway…so it does not matter. But he must be trained to laugh at all wisecracks, irrespective of whether he finds them funny or not/ understands them of not. He need not be Muslim (that was just a dig at you…) It is imperative however that he does not roll his eyes when he sees me pouring tomato ketchup over my utthapam…yes, he will have to sit and eat with me.
[Fair warning: absinthe makes the heart grow fonder!]
I can see that ;)
- - -
Zafar:
[Yeh mere koo bhi nahin malum ben! Stuka se poochthe so? Hau maa, roj sootaan pen ke naachtha ma! Sab toastvoast malum hoyenga usskoo.]
Aur main idhar ko sochee ke Stuka woh maatee-meley ko nachaata hoinga! Sunaa so ke jo sotan pen ke hiltaa, woh booaaathhhh aagey jaata…shukar hai apnaich aadmi hai…
Khush raho…
[Did Tahmed suggest Hawaii as alternative Haj destination? Tahmed, hamein bhi le chalna!]
Can’t wait to see you guys in straw skirts…according to Islamic tenets only unstitched clothes permitted during Haj!
#146 by MaheshG2:
When have I made excuses for `Muslim politicians`??? I have been critical of most.
#147 Posted by FarzanaVersey on January 12, 2004 1:48:22 am
I am surprised at the way some of you are reacting to Jinnah. To compare him to despots is ridiculous. The worst thing that could be said about him is that he was an opportunist, and that anyone who plays a leadership role will be. (There are exceptions like Lal Bahadur Shastri then and a JP in more recent times, but the ‘devotees’ of the latter proved to be using his position to further their cause. Besides, JP had to abdicate any position.)
Re. how one can call someone principled if one does not necessarily agrees with his/her principles…tell me, how many people follow ahimsa and other Gandhi an tenets? And yet they do admire the Mahatma, don’t they?
Re. Jinnah’s communalism…I am posting another column of mine on Nehru. Perhaps it might give an idea about how the leaders were. You may make your own comparisons and reach your own conclusions.
( http://www.hvk.org/articles/1196/0016.html)
Discovery of Nehru - II
Farzana Versey
Date : November 13, 1996
On Nehru`s birth anniversary tomorrow, the idea is not to
take away from the majesty of the individual, but to
bring into focus the dilemmas that face human beings who
are forced to be what they are not.
As he could not give them the loin cloth ethnicity that
would give them something to talk about, 1 suspect he
used the buzz word `industrialisation` to make the Brit-
ish feel that they had done a good job of tutoring the
natives. He had no agenda for industrialisation (except
socialism!) and he was mighty afraid of the spectre he
had created and also envious of those who could do so.
Therefore, while Gandhi, who had no interest in the
subject, happily partook of the hospitality of the Bir-
las, the angel of industrialisation stayed away.
It couldn`t have been probity. It was contempt for the
Marwari community who had the money and the business
acumen to take India towards the unholy grail.
It may be difficult to digest the image of Nehru as a
communalist, but in a larger sense he was. In that he
was aware of where he came from and from where others
did. The doyen of the Parsi community, J R D Tata, had
an uneasy relationship with him. If Nehru knew his
Mozart, had been to Cambridge and used his silverware
with a flourish, so did most Parsis. They built an
empire, believed in philanthropy and did not think it
necessary to hide their westernised thinking. Nehru did
not like that.
The final blow came when Firoze Gandhi, no mean parlia-
mentarian himself, swept his daughter off her feet. The
father never forgave that. Had he not strictly forbidden
Indira during her childhood from reading fairytales?
With Muslims, there was talk of his `Islamic flavour` and
political amity, but when it came to brasstacks, things
were different. In 1937, he rejected Jinnah`s proposal
for a Congress-Muslim League coalition saying that there
were only two parties in India - the Congress and the
British. Many believe this was when Pakistan was born.
Another example of his parochialism is evident in his
sending his widowed sister Vijayalakshmi`s suitor, Syed
Hussein, off on an ambassadorial assignment, thus putting
an end to the romance. But on the poor man`s death
Nehru, the public romantic, did not forget to build a
mausoleum in his memory. To be fair, he did look after
Sheikh Abdullah`s family when the latter was in prison,
which made the sheikh weep uncontrollably on the platform
where the dead Nehru lay.
Millions may have followed his funeral procession and his
popularity in life may have been unprecedented, but it is also
true that security guards hid behind the bushes in his
house and the kitchens of his prospective hosts were
examined before he could taste a morsel. His populism
put him at risk.
Later in life, he was besotted with ``the old Hindu idea
that there is a divine essence in the world``. His Will
stated that his ashes be strewn over the Ganges. It may
not have been a religious gesture, but two days before
his death he had written about the ``concept of dharma``.
History judges people in many ways. One is to judge them
by their last words. In which case Nehru saw to it that
if the divine essence went out of the grasp of his fami-
ly, divine wrath would turn on the country. The archi-
tect laid the foundation in the form of a magic carpet.
He could pull the rug from under our feet anytime he
wished.
Did Nehru, then, also believe in voodoo tricks?
Re. how one can call someone principled if one does not necessarily agrees with his/her principles…tell me, how many people follow ahimsa and other Gandhi an tenets? And yet they do admire the Mahatma, don’t they?
Re. Jinnah’s communalism…I am posting another column of mine on Nehru. Perhaps it might give an idea about how the leaders were. You may make your own comparisons and reach your own conclusions.
( http://www.hvk.org/articles/1196/0016.html)
Discovery of Nehru - II
Farzana Versey
Date : November 13, 1996
On Nehru`s birth anniversary tomorrow, the idea is not to
take away from the majesty of the individual, but to
bring into focus the dilemmas that face human beings who
are forced to be what they are not.
As he could not give them the loin cloth ethnicity that
would give them something to talk about, 1 suspect he
used the buzz word `industrialisation` to make the Brit-
ish feel that they had done a good job of tutoring the
natives. He had no agenda for industrialisation (except
socialism!) and he was mighty afraid of the spectre he
had created and also envious of those who could do so.
Therefore, while Gandhi, who had no interest in the
subject, happily partook of the hospitality of the Bir-
las, the angel of industrialisation stayed away.
It couldn`t have been probity. It was contempt for the
Marwari community who had the money and the business
acumen to take India towards the unholy grail.
It may be difficult to digest the image of Nehru as a
communalist, but in a larger sense he was. In that he
was aware of where he came from and from where others
did. The doyen of the Parsi community, J R D Tata, had
an uneasy relationship with him. If Nehru knew his
Mozart, had been to Cambridge and used his silverware
with a flourish, so did most Parsis. They built an
empire, believed in philanthropy and did not think it
necessary to hide their westernised thinking. Nehru did
not like that.
The final blow came when Firoze Gandhi, no mean parlia-
mentarian himself, swept his daughter off her feet. The
father never forgave that. Had he not strictly forbidden
Indira during her childhood from reading fairytales?
With Muslims, there was talk of his `Islamic flavour` and
political amity, but when it came to brasstacks, things
were different. In 1937, he rejected Jinnah`s proposal
for a Congress-Muslim League coalition saying that there
were only two parties in India - the Congress and the
British. Many believe this was when Pakistan was born.
Another example of his parochialism is evident in his
sending his widowed sister Vijayalakshmi`s suitor, Syed
Hussein, off on an ambassadorial assignment, thus putting
an end to the romance. But on the poor man`s death
Nehru, the public romantic, did not forget to build a
mausoleum in his memory. To be fair, he did look after
Sheikh Abdullah`s family when the latter was in prison,
which made the sheikh weep uncontrollably on the platform
where the dead Nehru lay.
Millions may have followed his funeral procession and his
popularity in life may have been unprecedented, but it is also
true that security guards hid behind the bushes in his
house and the kitchens of his prospective hosts were
examined before he could taste a morsel. His populism
put him at risk.
Later in life, he was besotted with ``the old Hindu idea
that there is a divine essence in the world``. His Will
stated that his ashes be strewn over the Ganges. It may
not have been a religious gesture, but two days before
his death he had written about the ``concept of dharma``.
History judges people in many ways. One is to judge them
by their last words. In which case Nehru saw to it that
if the divine essence went out of the grasp of his fami-
ly, divine wrath would turn on the country. The archi-
tect laid the foundation in the form of a magic carpet.
He could pull the rug from under our feet anytime he
wished.
Did Nehru, then, also believe in voodoo tricks?
#146 Posted by MaheshG2 on January 11, 2004 11:30:18 pm
``I will show you a recent letter in the newspapers that amazed me with its ‘logic’. The writer believes that if you find a place in the Indian cricket team even if you come from a state where your community has been persecuted with the active connivance of the government in power, then all is well with the world. It is “secular” intellectuals who have the audacity to malign the poor Gujarat government when Irfan Pathan, a teenager, the son of a maulvi who lives in a mosque can play cricket for the country. ``
Farzana, you seem to find excuses for the most crooked of Muslim politicians yet you show disdain for apologists of crooked Hindu politicians. Why is that?
Why is there a need to analyze to minute details the actions of Muslim politicians however harmful they might be? Yet you have no patience for similar analyses on behalf of Hindu politicians.
Farzana, you seem to find excuses for the most crooked of Muslim politicians yet you show disdain for apologists of crooked Hindu politicians. Why is that?
Why is there a need to analyze to minute details the actions of Muslim politicians however harmful they might be? Yet you have no patience for similar analyses on behalf of Hindu politicians.
#145 Posted by sadna on January 11, 2004 5:07:54 pm
harimau #135
``You think it resembles Hindutva; I think it resembles the Pakistan ideology (`Buddhism is in danger` as opposed to `Islam is in danger`). ``
I think Hindutva closely resembles both Sinhala nationalism and Pakistan ideology(`Buddhism in danger`, `Islam in danger` `Hinduism in danger`).
The correspondence between elements of all is almost exact. For example the depradations of medieval Tamil invaders are given exactly the same prominence in `rewritten` Sinhala history as the depradations of medieval Muslim invaders are given in Hindutva history. The determined denial of 1000 years of interwining of Tamil and Sinhala religion/culture/society by the Sinhala movement, is very similar to the determined denial of 1000+ years of interwining of Hindu and Muslim religion/culture/society in the Pakistan and Hindutva movements.
The lesson is, the Pakistan and Sinhala nationalist movements have provided justification for decades/generations of war and neither Islam nor Buddhism nor Muslims or Buddhists are any safer for it. Is India to go through decades of violence to reach the same conclusion about Hinduism and Hindus?
harimau #136
`` Would not the Rs. 150 crores spent on the Haj subsidy be better spent on schooling Muslim children?``
Zactly right. Such a proposal has come from Muslims themselves, else the Indian govt. will face twin accusations of interceding in religious affairs of Muslims and trying to rob Muslims of their identity via state education.
The BJP which in its early days made loud claims of `Hindutva is all inclusive/ true secularism`, could have courted a Muslim constituency which pressed for such measures, but the BJP chose to use such issues SOLELY for fanning communal hatred via hate speech against Muslims. Some inclusion, some secularism.
``You think it resembles Hindutva; I think it resembles the Pakistan ideology (`Buddhism is in danger` as opposed to `Islam is in danger`). ``
I think Hindutva closely resembles both Sinhala nationalism and Pakistan ideology(`Buddhism in danger`, `Islam in danger` `Hinduism in danger`).
The correspondence between elements of all is almost exact. For example the depradations of medieval Tamil invaders are given exactly the same prominence in `rewritten` Sinhala history as the depradations of medieval Muslim invaders are given in Hindutva history. The determined denial of 1000 years of interwining of Tamil and Sinhala religion/culture/society by the Sinhala movement, is very similar to the determined denial of 1000+ years of interwining of Hindu and Muslim religion/culture/society in the Pakistan and Hindutva movements.
The lesson is, the Pakistan and Sinhala nationalist movements have provided justification for decades/generations of war and neither Islam nor Buddhism nor Muslims or Buddhists are any safer for it. Is India to go through decades of violence to reach the same conclusion about Hinduism and Hindus?
harimau #136
`` Would not the Rs. 150 crores spent on the Haj subsidy be better spent on schooling Muslim children?``
Zactly right. Such a proposal has come from Muslims themselves, else the Indian govt. will face twin accusations of interceding in religious affairs of Muslims and trying to rob Muslims of their identity via state education.
The BJP which in its early days made loud claims of `Hindutva is all inclusive/ true secularism`, could have courted a Muslim constituency which pressed for such measures, but the BJP chose to use such issues SOLELY for fanning communal hatred via hate speech against Muslims. Some inclusion, some secularism.
#143 Posted by Ralph on January 11, 2004 5:07:33 pm
#140 ironman
While we are asked to stop making war movies about defending Indian territory, anyone seen the films Pakistanis have been making for decades, shaan se.
For the latest laugh, take a look at Larki Punjaban. I am glad they left Christians out :)
While we are asked to stop making war movies about defending Indian territory, anyone seen the films Pakistanis have been making for decades, shaan se.
For the latest laugh, take a look at Larki Punjaban. I am glad they left Christians out :)
#142 Posted by harimau on January 11, 2004 5:07:32 pm
Ref harimau #134
{[Alternatively, compulsory reading of all of Periyar’s works,...]
You know I read more of his stuff than Maasanamuthu has done. That`s why I have the rate cornered!}
Read `rat` for `rate`.
{[Alternatively, compulsory reading of all of Periyar’s works,...]
You know I read more of his stuff than Maasanamuthu has done. That`s why I have the rate cornered!}
Read `rat` for `rate`.
#141 Posted by rsridhar on January 11, 2004 10:17:09 am
re:#122 by tahmed32
Thanks.
Agree with your post.
Sridhar
Thanks.
Agree with your post.
Sridhar
#140 Posted by ironman on January 11, 2004 7:35:31 am
#131 by SharkO,
``I am pretty sure most Indians are much friendlier in real life than those that post here...``
sharko saab,
Reading every day for 10 years about our countrymen (civilian and soldiers) being killed by mercenaries and jihadis...yes...that sure makes us feel friendly towards you.
But I`m not surprised by your statement. You guys are completedly whacked out of reality. Look at that stupid bastd Kasuri...demanding we stop making war movies!
``I am pretty sure most Indians are much friendlier in real life than those that post here...``
sharko saab,
Reading every day for 10 years about our countrymen (civilian and soldiers) being killed by mercenaries and jihadis...yes...that sure makes us feel friendly towards you.
But I`m not surprised by your statement. You guys are completedly whacked out of reality. Look at that stupid bastd Kasuri...demanding we stop making war movies!
#139 Posted by ZafarA on January 11, 2004 7:35:29 am
Farjanabai
“Yeh saala angrej log toast kaise peeta hai? Boley tau, drink a toast… apun tau chai mein doobata tau bhi pighalta nahin poora.”
Yeh mere koo bhi nahin malum ben! Stuka se poochthe so? Hau maa, roj sootaan pen ke naachtha ma! Sab toastvoast malum hoyenga usskoo.
Salaam e dua
“Yeh saala angrej log toast kaise peeta hai? Boley tau, drink a toast… apun tau chai mein doobata tau bhi pighalta nahin poora.”
Yeh mere koo bhi nahin malum ben! Stuka se poochthe so? Hau maa, roj sootaan pen ke naachtha ma! Sab toastvoast malum hoyenga usskoo.
Salaam e dua
#138 Posted by ZafarA on January 11, 2004 7:35:29 am
Did Tahmed suggest Hawaii as alternative Haj destination? Tahmed, hamein bhi le chalna!
#137 Posted by MaheshG2 on January 11, 2004 7:35:06 am
Farzana #120,
I expect now you would be writing a column explaining why you admire Bal Thackeray as well?
#136 Posted by harimau on January 11, 2004 7:35:05 am
Ref sadna #128
[I would recommend reading `Only Man is Vile` by William McGowan, a book about Sri Lanka.]
Not only have I read the book but I remember and chortle at the verse that gave the book its title ;)
[I happened to read it in the mid90s and got scared out of my wits at the eerie resemblence between Sinhala nationalism and Hindutva.]
If you had read more about Sri Lanka, you would have understood how well the politics of ``Divide and Rule`` are played in Sri Lanka. Thus the Muslims of the Northeast are classified as Muslims but not Tamils though Tamil is their language. There are Sri Lankan Tamils and Plantation Tamils and the former sold the latter down the river. (Lal Bahadur Shastri`s acceptance of the repatriation of almost a million Plantation Tamils to India in 1965 was a major mistake. Would you take back the Jamaican or Guyanese or South African Indians?) Throw in the Burghers (Anglo- or Dutch-Sri Lankan community) and you had the Sinhalese claiming that they were being marginalized in their own country.
You think it resembles Hindutva; I think it resembles the Pakistan ideology (`Buddhism is in danger` as opposed to `Islam is in danger`).
[I would recommend reading `Only Man is Vile` by William McGowan, a book about Sri Lanka.]
Not only have I read the book but I remember and chortle at the verse that gave the book its title ;)
[I happened to read it in the mid90s and got scared out of my wits at the eerie resemblence between Sinhala nationalism and Hindutva.]
If you had read more about Sri Lanka, you would have understood how well the politics of ``Divide and Rule`` are played in Sri Lanka. Thus the Muslims of the Northeast are classified as Muslims but not Tamils though Tamil is their language. There are Sri Lankan Tamils and Plantation Tamils and the former sold the latter down the river. (Lal Bahadur Shastri`s acceptance of the repatriation of almost a million Plantation Tamils to India in 1965 was a major mistake. Would you take back the Jamaican or Guyanese or South African Indians?) Throw in the Burghers (Anglo- or Dutch-Sri Lankan community) and you had the Sinhalese claiming that they were being marginalized in their own country.
You think it resembles Hindutva; I think it resembles the Pakistan ideology (`Buddhism is in danger` as opposed to `Islam is in danger`).
#135 Posted by harimau on January 11, 2004 7:35:05 am
Ref sadna #104
[Re Haj subsidies.
It is infinitely better if India subsidises Haj of Indians than if Saudi Arabia or people sitting in foreign countries subsidise it.]
At least if Saudi Arabia subsidizes it, it has that much less money to spend on conversions.
If India is to mollycoddle its minorities, let it at least be in a fashion that will help them improve their lives. Would not the Rs. 150 crores spent on the Haj subsidy be better spent on schooling Muslim children? With the fees in an engineering college set at Rs. 35,000 a year (in Tamil Nadu, that was the recent figure) Rs. 150 crores would pay for a total of over 40,000 students, meaning that we will add 10,000 Muslim engineers to the mix of graduates each year. And we could have done it for the last 57 years, adding nearly 600,000 Muslims to the professional class and giving their families a better standard of living. If the walking brain-dead such as Maasanamuthu could have a college education at the expense of the public, I would say let it go to the truly deserving poor and underprivileged Muslims (ruling Farzana Versey neatly out!).
If the goal of the Haj subsidy is for the Indian Government to provide safe passage to Jannat for Indian Muslims, can we really object when, with identical goals in mind, the Government of Pakistan funds madrassahs and the jihad factories?
[Re Haj subsidies.
It is infinitely better if India subsidises Haj of Indians than if Saudi Arabia or people sitting in foreign countries subsidise it.]
At least if Saudi Arabia subsidizes it, it has that much less money to spend on conversions.
If India is to mollycoddle its minorities, let it at least be in a fashion that will help them improve their lives. Would not the Rs. 150 crores spent on the Haj subsidy be better spent on schooling Muslim children? With the fees in an engineering college set at Rs. 35,000 a year (in Tamil Nadu, that was the recent figure) Rs. 150 crores would pay for a total of over 40,000 students, meaning that we will add 10,000 Muslim engineers to the mix of graduates each year. And we could have done it for the last 57 years, adding nearly 600,000 Muslims to the professional class and giving their families a better standard of living. If the walking brain-dead such as Maasanamuthu could have a college education at the expense of the public, I would say let it go to the truly deserving poor and underprivileged Muslims (ruling Farzana Versey neatly out!).
If the goal of the Haj subsidy is for the Indian Government to provide safe passage to Jannat for Indian Muslims, can we really object when, with identical goals in mind, the Government of Pakistan funds madrassahs and the jihad factories?
#134 Posted by harimau on January 11, 2004 7:35:04 am
Ref FarzanaVersey #119
{Now you are clearly confused. Please tell me how these two statements can be taken together?
[Well, do let me know when you get to Chennai. I just bought absinthe... banned in several countries because it is actually toxic (in large doses and over a long period of time... so it is quite okay to drink one glass!)] }
I would offer you a glass of absinthe. That is how the statement is meant to be taken. Taking absinthe, on the other hand, seems to be a complicated process. There is some talk about dribbling a sugar solution into the drink. I got to find out and do it right.
[…anyway, what is Mullah Omar paying you as bride price?]
I wouldn`t presume to accept money for a woman with a great amount of self-assurance such as you. That would be almost like behaving like an uneducated Afghan and also treating you like a commodity. Think of yourself as a nazar from me to that great man Mullah Omar.
[Btw, an apology from you is in order. You have been nasty, vile, obnoxious…unless you are planning to roll up the slopes of Tirupati!]
I don`t know what provoked that demand for an apology! I thought I would turn over a new leaf what with it being a new year and all that. I also chanced to read your iLog the other day. I do hope you are completely recovered. From the surgery, I mean, not from your sense of injury ;)
[Alternatively, compulsory reading of all of Periyar’s works,...]
You know I read more of his stuff than Maasanamuthu has done. That`s why I have the rate cornered!
[... and a chauffeur (Muslim, naturally!)-driven car at my service when I am in Chennai next.]
This one is easy to do. Would you like the Urdu speaker or the Tamil speaker?
[And the whole bottle of absinthe. My system is immune to toxicity with the likes of you around…]
Fair warning: absinthe makes the heart grow fonder! (Actually, most liquors do but I couldn`t resist the pun!)
{Now you are clearly confused. Please tell me how these two statements can be taken together?
[Well, do let me know when you get to Chennai. I just bought absinthe... banned in several countries because it is actually toxic (in large doses and over a long period of time... so it is quite okay to drink one glass!)] }
I would offer you a glass of absinthe. That is how the statement is meant to be taken. Taking absinthe, on the other hand, seems to be a complicated process. There is some talk about dribbling a sugar solution into the drink. I got to find out and do it right.
[…anyway, what is Mullah Omar paying you as bride price?]
I wouldn`t presume to accept money for a woman with a great amount of self-assurance such as you. That would be almost like behaving like an uneducated Afghan and also treating you like a commodity. Think of yourself as a nazar from me to that great man Mullah Omar.
[Btw, an apology from you is in order. You have been nasty, vile, obnoxious…unless you are planning to roll up the slopes of Tirupati!]
I don`t know what provoked that demand for an apology! I thought I would turn over a new leaf what with it being a new year and all that. I also chanced to read your iLog the other day. I do hope you are completely recovered. From the surgery, I mean, not from your sense of injury ;)
[Alternatively, compulsory reading of all of Periyar’s works,...]
You know I read more of his stuff than Maasanamuthu has done. That`s why I have the rate cornered!
[... and a chauffeur (Muslim, naturally!)-driven car at my service when I am in Chennai next.]
This one is easy to do. Would you like the Urdu speaker or the Tamil speaker?
[And the whole bottle of absinthe. My system is immune to toxicity with the likes of you around…]
Fair warning: absinthe makes the heart grow fonder! (Actually, most liquors do but I couldn`t resist the pun!)
#133 Posted by arjun_m on January 10, 2004 9:06:08 pm
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#132 Posted by ballukhan on January 10, 2004 7:55:01 pm
#120 by FarzanaVersey on January 10, 2004 2:39am PT
Next we would have FV raving and ranting about how Hitler was a principled man who wanted to liberate his aryan clan from the clutches of jews and barbarians around and create a world in which the pure aryans were not hassled by the dark people. How his overzealous party members started the war etc. etc. and how he was unfortunate to be accused of the world war deaths- Churchil was equally at fault !! How handsome Hitler looked in that uniform and how so many young ones wanted to be in the shoes of eva.....
Next we would have FV raving and ranting about how Hitler was a principled man who wanted to liberate his aryan clan from the clutches of jews and barbarians around and create a world in which the pure aryans were not hassled by the dark people. How his overzealous party members started the war etc. etc. and how he was unfortunate to be accused of the world war deaths- Churchil was equally at fault !! How handsome Hitler looked in that uniform and how so many young ones wanted to be in the shoes of eva.....
#131 Posted by SharkO on January 10, 2004 5:34:42 pm
>>Why were over a hundred million Muslims willing to eat out of his palm?
Because Jinnah reflected their fears, even as he spoke of intermarriage to
promote communal harmony. Jinnah learned, as does every other politician,
that human beings are easily excitable because they are inherently
prejudiced.<<
Well it`s quite easy to understand Jinnah`s fears just looking at the poisonous replies of some of the people who post here. Gandhi was murdered by a hindu fundamentalist after all.
Newsflash:
Peace would be a good thing for BOTH countries. Pakistan is rightly putting it`s association with political Islam behind it, and whether India`s BJP disowns it`s Hindutva roots isn`t really any concern of ours. The end result is all that matters and things are looking up. I am pretty sure most Indians are much friendlier in real life than those that post here and look forward to the day when citizens of both nations are crossing the border freely to share in their heritage.
Because Jinnah reflected their fears, even as he spoke of intermarriage to
promote communal harmony. Jinnah learned, as does every other politician,
that human beings are easily excitable because they are inherently
prejudiced.<<
Well it`s quite easy to understand Jinnah`s fears just looking at the poisonous replies of some of the people who post here. Gandhi was murdered by a hindu fundamentalist after all.
Newsflash:
Peace would be a good thing for BOTH countries. Pakistan is rightly putting it`s association with political Islam behind it, and whether India`s BJP disowns it`s Hindutva roots isn`t really any concern of ours. The end result is all that matters and things are looking up. I am pretty sure most Indians are much friendlier in real life than those that post here and look forward to the day when citizens of both nations are crossing the border freely to share in their heritage.
#130 Posted by arjun_m on January 10, 2004 2:09:44 pm
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#129 Posted by sadna on January 10, 2004 1:39:02 pm
harimau
I would recommend reading `Only Man is Vile` by William McGowan, a book about Sri Lanka. I happened to read it in the mid90s and got scared out of my wits at the eerie resemblence between Sinhala nationalism and Hindutva.
I would recommend reading `Only Man is Vile` by William McGowan, a book about Sri Lanka. I happened to read it in the mid90s and got scared out of my wits at the eerie resemblence between Sinhala nationalism and Hindutva.
#128 Posted by arjun_m on January 10, 2004 1:39:02 pm
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#127 Posted by stuka on January 10, 2004 12:57:35 pm
Harimau:
``Please do provide me with a reading list. I would appreciate it very much. I would like to diversify from the history of the US, India, etc., into something else. ``
If you are not being sarcastic, I would recommend the following to start with.
``Commandant of Auschwitz : The Autobiography of Rudolf Hoess``
http://www.0ne-shop.com/books/Biographies-Memoirs/Historical/Holocaust/P-0000000a000052695453625261635458/Commandant-of-Auschwitz-The-Autobiography-of-Rudolf-Hoess/Commandant-of-Auschwitz-The-Autobiography-of-Rudolf-Hoess.php
The link goes to where you can buy the book. I have read it, and you will see how easy it is for a man to slip into something very horrendous. All it needs is a combination of self-righteousness, perception of being victimized (as many Hindutvawadis genuinely feel) and power.
``Please do provide me with a reading list. I would appreciate it very much. I would like to diversify from the history of the US, India, etc., into something else. ``
If you are not being sarcastic, I would recommend the following to start with.
``Commandant of Auschwitz : The Autobiography of Rudolf Hoess``
http://www.0ne-shop.com/books/Biographies-Memoirs/Historical/Holocaust/P-0000000a000052695453625261635458/Commandant-of-Auschwitz-The-Autobiography-of-Rudolf-Hoess/Commandant-of-Auschwitz-The-Autobiography-of-Rudolf-Hoess.php
The link goes to where you can buy the book. I have read it, and you will see how easy it is for a man to slip into something very horrendous. All it needs is a combination of self-righteousness, perception of being victimized (as many Hindutvawadis genuinely feel) and power.
#126 Posted by gujjubania on January 10, 2004 10:27:16 am
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#125 Posted by mohar11 on January 10, 2004 8:33:45 am
#120 by FarzanaVersey
//...how it was that a man who wanted a nationalist solution till as late as 1938, when he was 61 years of age, suddenly become a `communalist`..//
Yeah - how did it happen? How did the nationalist become a communalist?
So far - I haven`t got any satisfactory explanation . The common refrain from Jinnah-admirers is that bad obstinate hindu leaders of Congress somehow forced him become a `communalist`. But this reasoning doesn`t really go that far in giving an convincing explanation. Congress leaders were, and still are, staunch secularists and had really gone out of their way to accomdate minority concerns. None of the Congress leaders of that time was anti-muslim or anti-minority.
//...it gave a glimpse into an essentially principled man. That we may not agree with his principles is another matter. ..//
If we donot agree with his principles - then what are we admiring him for? Even Stalin had his principles but we don`t agree with those principles and hence we donot admire him. Just being a principled man means nothing unless those principles brings in results that we can agree with.
From a person who was ``not a votary of mass movements`` to a person who ordered ``Direction Action Day``, a violent mass(mob?) movement - the Jinnah`s transformation was dramatic. That was a 180 degree change of principles ..... Which ``essentially principled man`` flips his principles this way - just because he had some serious differences with his colleagues and compatriots?
Also - I never understood ``not-a-votary-of-mass-movements`` principle either. How exactly do you fight for freedom without involving the masses for whose freedom you are fighting in the first place? ...... By having tea inside an ivory tower with the same guys you are supposed to be fighting?
Such fundamental inconstistencies are in abundance in Jinnah`s life story as we know it.
//...how it was that a man who wanted a nationalist solution till as late as 1938, when he was 61 years of age, suddenly become a `communalist`..//
Yeah - how did it happen? How did the nationalist become a communalist?
So far - I haven`t got any satisfactory explanation . The common refrain from Jinnah-admirers is that bad obstinate hindu leaders of Congress somehow forced him become a `communalist`. But this reasoning doesn`t really go that far in giving an convincing explanation. Congress leaders were, and still are, staunch secularists and had really gone out of their way to accomdate minority concerns. None of the Congress leaders of that time was anti-muslim or anti-minority.
//...it gave a glimpse into an essentially principled man. That we may not agree with his principles is another matter. ..//
If we donot agree with his principles - then what are we admiring him for? Even Stalin had his principles but we don`t agree with those principles and hence we donot admire him. Just being a principled man means nothing unless those principles brings in results that we can agree with.
From a person who was ``not a votary of mass movements`` to a person who ordered ``Direction Action Day``, a violent mass(mob?) movement - the Jinnah`s transformation was dramatic. That was a 180 degree change of principles ..... Which ``essentially principled man`` flips his principles this way - just because he had some serious differences with his colleagues and compatriots?
Also - I never understood ``not-a-votary-of-mass-movements`` principle either. How exactly do you fight for freedom without involving the masses for whose freedom you are fighting in the first place? ...... By having tea inside an ivory tower with the same guys you are supposed to be fighting?
Such fundamental inconstistencies are in abundance in Jinnah`s life story as we know it.
#124 Posted by tahmed32 on January 10, 2004 8:17:05 am
rsridhar #118 What you are criticizing is not religion per se, but the exploitation of religion. And there i am with you 100%.
Here is a strategy that I wish governments would use more often rather than caving in to the demands of those who claim to represent some religion: The best defense against those who exploit religion is to examine their case from within the same framework of religion that they present it (since nearly every time their arguments are easily exposed as being contrary to the teachings of the very religion they claim to represent - as i did in my post below on the issue of the hajj subsidy).
Zafar: Welcome back.
Here is a strategy that I wish governments would use more often rather than caving in to the demands of those who claim to represent some religion: The best defense against those who exploit religion is to examine their case from within the same framework of religion that they present it (since nearly every time their arguments are easily exposed as being contrary to the teachings of the very religion they claim to represent - as i did in my post below on the issue of the hajj subsidy).
Zafar: Welcome back.
#123 Posted by harimau on January 10, 2004 8:17:05 am
Ref FarzanaVersey #120
[Why I admire Jinnah]
Native son of Gujarat, perhaps?
[It would be easy to say he was making political capital of the situation by using the minority issue as a shoulder from which to fire the gun, but that would an appalling generalisation.]
Is it the generalisation that is appalling or the use of the gun that is appalling?
[It would, therefore, be unfair to hold him solely responsible for 600,000 deaths and the uprooting of 14 million people.]
Well, you could add Liaqat Ali Khan Suhrawardy and the leadership of the All-India Muslim League to the list of criminals.
[Why were over a hundred million Muslims willing to eat out of his palm?]
``Islam is in danger`` and ``Pakistan ki matlab kya, La Ilahi il Allah`` seem to be very good answers to that question.
[Because Jinnah reflected their fears, even as he spoke of intermarriage to promote communal harmony. Jinnah learned, as does every other politician, that human beings are easily excitable because they are inherently prejudiced.]
I suppose communal harmony between Parsis and Muslims was so high that he felt there was no need for his daughter to marry a Parsi.
[Jinnah has been accused of being a megalomaniac, but so were most of the leaders of the time. They could not forget they were participants in an epoch-making event.]
So were Hitler, Stalin, Mao Zedong, Pol Pot and a whole host of unsavory characters... megalomaniacs and participants in epoch-making events.
[If fact, in 1946 he talked of having a metaphorical pistol in a world full of AK-47s and nuclear arsenal.]
The AK-47s and the nuclear arsenal were NOT in the hands of the average Muslims and Hindus of Calcutta.
[The statement may have seem terribly outdated and stupid...]
Not at all. Just prescient. After all we now have Pakistan awash with AK-47s and also as the proud possessor of the Islamic Bomb.
[.... but it gave a glimpse into an essentially principled man. That we may not agree with his principles is another matter.]
I am reminded of a debate long ago in the British Parliament. When one parliamentarian said, ``You are likely to be hanged or die of a social disease`` the other responded, ``That depends entirely upon whether I embrace your principles or your mistress.`` Well, ZA Bhutto got hanged. We now only have to search for those with social (venereal) diseases.
[Why I admire Jinnah]
Native son of Gujarat, perhaps?
[It would be easy to say he was making political capital of the situation by using the minority issue as a shoulder from which to fire the gun, but that would an appalling generalisation.]
Is it the generalisation that is appalling or the use of the gun that is appalling?
[It would, therefore, be unfair to hold him solely responsible for 600,000 deaths and the uprooting of 14 million people.]
Well, you could add Liaqat Ali Khan Suhrawardy and the leadership of the All-India Muslim League to the list of criminals.
[Why were over a hundred million Muslims willing to eat out of his palm?]
``Islam is in danger`` and ``Pakistan ki matlab kya, La Ilahi il Allah`` seem to be very good answers to that question.
[Because Jinnah reflected their fears, even as he spoke of intermarriage to promote communal harmony. Jinnah learned, as does every other politician, that human beings are easily excitable because they are inherently prejudiced.]
I suppose communal harmony between Parsis and Muslims was so high that he felt there was no need for his daughter to marry a Parsi.
[Jinnah has been accused of being a megalomaniac, but so were most of the leaders of the time. They could not forget they were participants in an epoch-making event.]
So were Hitler, Stalin, Mao Zedong, Pol Pot and a whole host of unsavory characters... megalomaniacs and participants in epoch-making events.
[If fact, in 1946 he talked of having a metaphorical pistol in a world full of AK-47s and nuclear arsenal.]
The AK-47s and the nuclear arsenal were NOT in the hands of the average Muslims and Hindus of Calcutta.
[The statement may have seem terribly outdated and stupid...]
Not at all. Just prescient. After all we now have Pakistan awash with AK-47s and also as the proud possessor of the Islamic Bomb.
[.... but it gave a glimpse into an essentially principled man. That we may not agree with his principles is another matter.]
I am reminded of a debate long ago in the British Parliament. When one parliamentarian said, ``You are likely to be hanged or die of a social disease`` the other responded, ``That depends entirely upon whether I embrace your principles or your mistress.`` Well, ZA Bhutto got hanged. We now only have to search for those with social (venereal) diseases.
#122 Posted by harimau on January 10, 2004 8:17:05 am
RefZafarA #115
[``Not really since I haven`t read that book. More like out of that movie (The Siege?) with Bruce Willis in it. You know, the US Army kind of invades NYC in response to terrorist bombings. I was thoroughly impressed by that movie.``
...how long were these people ruled by fillum isstaaars?]
Two-and-a-half hours. We are NOT talking about the Tamil epic ``Sampoorna Ramayanam`` that ran for five and a half hours. The attention span of the average American is rather limited.
[``Not really since I haven`t read that book. More like out of that movie (The Siege?) with Bruce Willis in it. You know, the US Army kind of invades NYC in response to terrorist bombings. I was thoroughly impressed by that movie.``
...how long were these people ruled by fillum isstaaars?]
Two-and-a-half hours. We are NOT talking about the Tamil epic ``Sampoorna Ramayanam`` that ran for five and a half hours. The attention span of the average American is rather limited.
#121 Posted by ballukhan on January 10, 2004 8:17:04 am
#108 by arjun_m on January 9, 2004 1:10pm PT
Ayaz Amir was the same guy with sparkle in his eyes when Mush was talking about nuking India! So , obviously he is now disappointed- he may find his the talent of talking about Paki Army and its wars with India finding no takers in the future- he would be jobless!!
Ayaz Amir was the same guy with sparkle in his eyes when Mush was talking about nuking India! So , obviously he is now disappointed- he may find his the talent of talking about Paki Army and its wars with India finding no takers in the future- he would be jobless!!
#120 Posted by FarzanaVersey on January 10, 2004 2:39:14 am
Why I admire Jinnah
http://www.rediff.com/style/aug/25farz.htm
HOME | LIFE/STYLE | COLUMNISTS | ANTI-VIEW
August 25, 1997
Farzana Versey
The other side of Jinnah
The life of the man largely held responsible for the partition of the
country has a touch of tragedy to it.
Mohammed Ali Jinnah almost appears like a naive knight in shining armor,
blinded by the glitter of his position, rather than a visionary convinced
of the soundness of his stand. His major flaw lay in the fact that he was
the brash other voice while everyone else was the chorus.
It would be easy to say he was making political capital of the situation
by using the minority issue as a shoulder from which to fire the gun, but
that would an appalling generalisation.
Like many people in power who portray themselves as saviours, Jinnah was
pawn in the hands of those he promised to free from the majority clutches.
The distribution of leaflets bearing pictures of a sword-bearing,
sherwani-clad Jinnah was clearly the handwork of a marketing genius.
Jinnah, in a spirit of parody, played along, probably for a good laugh and
certainly for a pat on the back.
It would, therefore, be unfair to hold him solely responsible for 600,000
deaths and the uprooting of 14 million people.
Even without referring to his taste in Scotch and sausages, one has to
admit he was not Islamist. The concept of jihad was totally alien to him
and, as Sardar Patel said, he was not a votary of mass movements. H M
Seervai, in his book on the Partition, has raised in important issue: ``It
is a little unfortunate that those who assail Jinnah for destroying the
unity of India do not ask how it was that a man who wanted a nationalist
solution till as late as 1938, when he was 61 years of age, suddenly
become a `communalist`.``
Why were over a hundred million Muslims willing to eat out of his palm?
Because Jinnah reflected their fears, even as he spoke of intermarriage to
promote communal harmony. Jinnah learned, as does every other politician,
that human beings are easily excitable because they are inherently
prejudiced.
Jinnah has been accused of being a megalomaniac, but so were most of the
leaders of the time. They could not forget they were participants in an
epoch-making event.
If he could maintain grace under pressure, at the height of the battle, he
would have dealt with many other issues in a similar fashion. If fact, in
1946 he talked of having a metaphorical pistol in a world full of AK-47s
and nuclear arsenal. The statement may have seem terribly outdated and
stupid, but it gave a glimpse into an essentially principled man. That we
may not agree with his principles is another matter.
http://www.rediff.com/style/aug/25farz.htm
HOME | LIFE/STYLE | COLUMNISTS | ANTI-VIEW
August 25, 1997
Farzana Versey
The other side of Jinnah
The life of the man largely held responsible for the partition of the
country has a touch of tragedy to it.
Mohammed Ali Jinnah almost appears like a naive knight in shining armor,
blinded by the glitter of his position, rather than a visionary convinced
of the soundness of his stand. His major flaw lay in the fact that he was
the brash other voice while everyone else was the chorus.
It would be easy to say he was making political capital of the situation
by using the minority issue as a shoulder from which to fire the gun, but
that would an appalling generalisation.
Like many people in power who portray themselves as saviours, Jinnah was
pawn in the hands of those he promised to free from the majority clutches.
The distribution of leaflets bearing pictures of a sword-bearing,
sherwani-clad Jinnah was clearly the handwork of a marketing genius.
Jinnah, in a spirit of parody, played along, probably for a good laugh and
certainly for a pat on the back.
It would, therefore, be unfair to hold him solely responsible for 600,000
deaths and the uprooting of 14 million people.
Even without referring to his taste in Scotch and sausages, one has to
admit he was not Islamist. The concept of jihad was totally alien to him
and, as Sardar Patel said, he was not a votary of mass movements. H M
Seervai, in his book on the Partition, has raised in important issue: ``It
is a little unfortunate that those who assail Jinnah for destroying the
unity of India do not ask how it was that a man who wanted a nationalist
solution till as late as 1938, when he was 61 years of age, suddenly
become a `communalist`.``
Why were over a hundred million Muslims willing to eat out of his palm?
Because Jinnah reflected their fears, even as he spoke of intermarriage to
promote communal harmony. Jinnah learned, as does every other politician,
that human beings are easily excitable because they are inherently
prejudiced.
Jinnah has been accused of being a megalomaniac, but so were most of the
leaders of the time. They could not forget they were participants in an
epoch-making event.
If he could maintain grace under pressure, at the height of the battle, he
would have dealt with many other issues in a similar fashion. If fact, in
1946 he talked of having a metaphorical pistol in a world full of AK-47s
and nuclear arsenal. The statement may have seem terribly outdated and
stupid, but it gave a glimpse into an essentially principled man. That we
may not agree with his principles is another matter.
#119 Posted by FarzanaVersey on January 10, 2004 2:22:47 am
Zafar (#77):
[Farzana Begum]
Kya Talib saab, iss naacheez ko aapne begum ka khitaab dekar inaayat kar di…bolo tau apun ka bolee mein, uska tau khopdi ghumaa diya. Itna din kidhar ghoomgayla tha…apun socha kisne supari daal di. Lekin Sydney mein khokha nahin milta na? Iske waastey bachh gaya…waisa sab barabar hai na? Koi vaanda hoga tau bas eik fone ghoomaneka, maamla fit ho jaayega. Purana Chowkie ka waaste itna tau faraj banta hai…woh shaayar log jaisa bolta…aapka dobara istikbal kar te hai hum…baap re, aisa tau gaali lagta, yeh baal-sheel kaiku laata beech mein?
Waisa, yeh jo likha pasand aaya tau thoda ijjat badhela hai!!...iska waaste apun ka taraf se eik nautaak maar lena ;) …(Yeh saala angrej log toast kaise peeta hai? Boley tau, drink a toast… apun tau chai mein doobata tau bhi pighalta nahin poora.)
~~~F Be-gham (yaanike khushi!)
- - -
#100 by gujjubania:
[Auntyji , ( hehehe , I know you hate to be called that , particularly by a scumbag like me..) ]
Lovely to know you do recognise yourself…hehehe…and I hate to make rishtas unless I know people...
Jinnah was responsible for the genocide? The Partition was his idea alone? You must be crazy. (Am posting an earlier column again that I had written a while ago elsewhere.)
[I dont think you are a closet Pakistani spy as some would suggest. I think you are just a little silly. You are a good person though. God bless you.]
Oh, thank you. Ondannondu kaladali!
- - -
#86 by harimau:
Now you are clearly confused. Please tell me how these two statements can be taken together?
[Well, do let me know when you get to Chennai. I just bought absinthe... banned in several countries because it is actually toxic (in large doses and over a long period of time... so it is quite okay to drink one glass!)]
[{Anyway, am still waiting for my first-class returnticket and stay arrangements for Kabul…}
One way, lady. No return from the Islamic Jannat-on-earth for you! Stay arrangements? Surely you haven`t forgotten my suggestion about being in the harem of Mullah Omar! Come on, I expect better than selective memory from you!]
Just when I thought there was hope for you…you spoil it all. I will organise the return ticket, so not to worry. As re. memory, you had clearly stated that you would keep me in fine fettle if I left for Kabul and that your dollars would go a along way there…anyway, what is Mullah Omar paying you as bride price? Btw, an apology from you is in order. You have been nasty, vile, obnoxious…unless you are planning to roll up the slopes of Tirupati!
Alternatively, compulsory reading of all of Periyar’s works, and a chauffeur (Muslim, naturally!)-driven car at my service when I am in Chennai next. And the whole bottle of absinthe. My system is immune to toxicity with the likes of you around…
- - -
To the rest… I suppose I have clarified things.
[Farzana Begum]
Kya Talib saab, iss naacheez ko aapne begum ka khitaab dekar inaayat kar di…bolo tau apun ka bolee mein, uska tau khopdi ghumaa diya. Itna din kidhar ghoomgayla tha…apun socha kisne supari daal di. Lekin Sydney mein khokha nahin milta na? Iske waastey bachh gaya…waisa sab barabar hai na? Koi vaanda hoga tau bas eik fone ghoomaneka, maamla fit ho jaayega. Purana Chowkie ka waaste itna tau faraj banta hai…woh shaayar log jaisa bolta…aapka dobara istikbal kar te hai hum…baap re, aisa tau gaali lagta, yeh baal-sheel kaiku laata beech mein?
Waisa, yeh jo likha pasand aaya tau thoda ijjat badhela hai!!...iska waaste apun ka taraf se eik nautaak maar lena ;) …(Yeh saala angrej log toast kaise peeta hai? Boley tau, drink a toast… apun tau chai mein doobata tau bhi pighalta nahin poora.)
~~~F Be-gham (yaanike khushi!)
- - -
#100 by gujjubania:
[Auntyji , ( hehehe , I know you hate to be called that , particularly by a scumbag like me..) ]
Lovely to know you do recognise yourself…hehehe…and I hate to make rishtas unless I know people...
Jinnah was responsible for the genocide? The Partition was his idea alone? You must be crazy. (Am posting an earlier column again that I had written a while ago elsewhere.)
[I dont think you are a closet Pakistani spy as some would suggest. I think you are just a little silly. You are a good person though. God bless you.]
Oh, thank you. Ondannondu kaladali!
- - -
#86 by harimau:
Now you are clearly confused. Please tell me how these two statements can be taken together?
[Well, do let me know when you get to Chennai. I just bought absinthe... banned in several countries because it is actually toxic (in large doses and over a long period of time... so it is quite okay to drink one glass!)]
[{Anyway, am still waiting for my first-class returnticket and stay arrangements for Kabul…}
One way, lady. No return from the Islamic Jannat-on-earth for you! Stay arrangements? Surely you haven`t forgotten my suggestion about being in the harem of Mullah Omar! Come on, I expect better than selective memory from you!]
Just when I thought there was hope for you…you spoil it all. I will organise the return ticket, so not to worry. As re. memory, you had clearly stated that you would keep me in fine fettle if I left for Kabul and that your dollars would go a along way there…anyway, what is Mullah Omar paying you as bride price? Btw, an apology from you is in order. You have been nasty, vile, obnoxious…unless you are planning to roll up the slopes of Tirupati!
Alternatively, compulsory reading of all of Periyar’s works, and a chauffeur (Muslim, naturally!)-driven car at my service when I am in Chennai next. And the whole bottle of absinthe. My system is immune to toxicity with the likes of you around…
- - -
To the rest… I suppose I have clarified things.
#118 Posted by rsridhar on January 9, 2004 11:40:05 pm
#116 by ZafarA
Thanks for the post.
Long time no see. Where have u been?
Sridhar
Thanks for the post.
Long time no see. Where have u been?
Sridhar
#117 Posted by rsridhar on January 9, 2004 11:40:05 pm
re:#114 by tahmed32
Thanks for the post.
I hope i have not offended u or other muslims. I am not questioning the tenets of Islam of which Haj is one. I am just saying: it is time to be practical even in one`s religious beliefs.
Sridhar
Thanks for the post.
I hope i have not offended u or other muslims. I am not questioning the tenets of Islam of which Haj is one. I am just saying: it is time to be practical even in one`s religious beliefs.
Sridhar
#116 Posted by ZafarA on January 9, 2004 8:30:50 pm
``Not really since I haven`t read that book. More like out of that movie (The Siege?) with Bruce Willis in it. You know, the US Army kind of invades NYC in response to terrorist bombings. I was thoroughly impressed by that movie.``
...how long were these people ruled by fillum isstaaars?
...how long were these people ruled by fillum isstaaars?
#115 Posted by ZafarA on January 9, 2004 8:30:50 pm
“It is better for Indian muslims to visit Hazrat Bal instead, where i am told Prophet Mohammad (PBUH)`s Hair is enshrined. This will bring the much needed money to Kashmir and keep the money in circulation within India.”
Climate also is better, but what to do yaar…Haj is one of the Five Pillars of Islam and all.
Climate also is better, but what to do yaar…Haj is one of the Five Pillars of Islam and all.
#114 Posted by tahmed32 on January 9, 2004 8:30:49 pm
rsridhar #113 i couldnt agree more. i wonder if i declare it my religious duty to go to hawaii every summer, would your generous government provide me a subsidy?
more seriously, contrary to the claims of whoever the indian government is trying to please in the indian muslim community with this, the hajj is not even a religous obligation in this case: i.e., the hajj is expected of a muslim ONLY if he/she can afford it. Thus, if he requires a subsidy to go, then he is saying he cannot afford to go on his own, and in doing so he is no longer religiously obliged to perform the hajj. so the whole thing is a scam.
more seriously, contrary to the claims of whoever the indian government is trying to please in the indian muslim community with this, the hajj is not even a religous obligation in this case: i.e., the hajj is expected of a muslim ONLY if he/she can afford it. Thus, if he requires a subsidy to go, then he is saying he cannot afford to go on his own, and in doing so he is no longer religiously obliged to perform the hajj. so the whole thing is a scam.
#113 Posted by rsridhar on January 9, 2004 5:23:55 pm
re: Haj subsidies
posts # 95,96 by arjun_m
Thanks for your posts. Mushy, above all, should know the dimensions of the stick more than anyone else.
RE: Haj subsides
As a secularist, i find the concept of offering subsidies to any religious groups distasteful. Why and how did GOI ever get involved in such stupidities? Providing subsidies for Mansarovar pilgrims is also similarly wrong but then they are small in numbers and inconsequential.
When millions of muslims from India visit Saudi Arabia for Haj, all they do is fill the coffers of that arrogant ``House of Saud``. What has Saudi Arabia ever done for Indian muslims or any average muslims? Its latest export item is ``terrorism``. Money from Haj is perhaps the second largest money spinner for Saudi Arabia after Oil. Latter will not last for ever and Saudis will return to the position where they always belonged viz on the back of a camel. But Haj will continue as long as an average muslim believes it is something that is a must to complete his/her mission in life. May be some muslim in Chowk can tell me: why is Haj so important?
In the old days, Hindus used to believe that their life is not worth it if they have not visited Kashi (modern day Benaras) at least once in their lifetime. Such a belief does not exist anymore. It is all faith but in case of Haj, we are filling the coffers of a terrorist state, a state which has not done anything for the cause of poor muslims the world over and where royalties live a life of debauchery. Even as i am writing these words, i am aware that before i finish posting this post, some woman in one of the Saudi Royal Harems will be having a labor pain and delivering a baby which, if male, will become a Minister of this or Minister of that when he grows up.
It is time muslims the world over asked this simple question: what has the House of Saud done for us? I believe the Agha Khans have done much more in terms of philanthropy and setting up institutions of excellence the world over.
What have the Saudi arabian royalty done for indian muslims except fund madrassas which preach hatred and wahabism? Have they opened any hospitals, any institutions of excellence, any grants for poor but aspiring young men? Nothing. As my research boss would say: zip, nada.
It is better for Indian muslims to visit Hazrat Bal instead, where i am told Prophet Mohammad (PBUH)`s Hair is enshrined. This will bring the much needed money to Kashmir and keep the money in circulation within India.
Sridhar
posts # 95,96 by arjun_m
Thanks for your posts. Mushy, above all, should know the dimensions of the stick more than anyone else.
RE: Haj subsides
As a secularist, i find the concept of offering subsidies to any religious groups distasteful. Why and how did GOI ever get involved in such stupidities? Providing subsidies for Mansarovar pilgrims is also similarly wrong but then they are small in numbers and inconsequential.
When millions of muslims from India visit Saudi Arabia for Haj, all they do is fill the coffers of that arrogant ``House of Saud``. What has Saudi Arabia ever done for Indian muslims or any average muslims? Its latest export item is ``terrorism``. Money from Haj is perhaps the second largest money spinner for Saudi Arabia after Oil. Latter will not last for ever and Saudis will return to the position where they always belonged viz on the back of a camel. But Haj will continue as long as an average muslim believes it is something that is a must to complete his/her mission in life. May be some muslim in Chowk can tell me: why is Haj so important?
In the old days, Hindus used to believe that their life is not worth it if they have not visited Kashi (modern day Benaras) at least once in their lifetime. Such a belief does not exist anymore. It is all faith but in case of Haj, we are filling the coffers of a terrorist state, a state which has not done anything for the cause of poor muslims the world over and where royalties live a life of debauchery. Even as i am writing these words, i am aware that before i finish posting this post, some woman in one of the Saudi Royal Harems will be having a labor pain and delivering a baby which, if male, will become a Minister of this or Minister of that when he grows up.
It is time muslims the world over asked this simple question: what has the House of Saud done for us? I believe the Agha Khans have done much more in terms of philanthropy and setting up institutions of excellence the world over.
What have the Saudi arabian royalty done for indian muslims except fund madrassas which preach hatred and wahabism? Have they opened any hospitals, any institutions of excellence, any grants for poor but aspiring young men? Nothing. As my research boss would say: zip, nada.
It is better for Indian muslims to visit Hazrat Bal instead, where i am told Prophet Mohammad (PBUH)`s Hair is enshrined. This will bring the much needed money to Kashmir and keep the money in circulation within India.
Sridhar
#112 Posted by arjun_m on January 9, 2004 4:22:24 pm
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#111 Posted by arjun_m on January 9, 2004 1:11:23 pm
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#110 Posted by jang on January 9, 2004 1:11:22 pm
Sadna
``Let Indians and the Indian government not surrender national and religious sovereignty to the the various moneyed enterprises abroad eager to globalize their religiosity.
I want my Muslim countrymen to do Haj, since it is their religious obligation and a long Indian tradition(didnot Akbar ask the Portugese to protect ships taking Indians to do Haj), and I want them to do it with Indian money. ``
Is this not tantamount to giving in to blackmail? (I kinda agree in a realpolitik sense though).
And yes, journalist are generally not respected is a well known fact.
http://www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=111
``Let Indians and the Indian government not surrender national and religious sovereignty to the the various moneyed enterprises abroad eager to globalize their religiosity.
I want my Muslim countrymen to do Haj, since it is their religious obligation and a long Indian tradition(didnot Akbar ask the Portugese to protect ships taking Indians to do Haj), and I want them to do it with Indian money. ``
Is this not tantamount to giving in to blackmail? (I kinda agree in a realpolitik sense though).
And yes, journalist are generally not respected is a well known fact.
http://www.harrisinteractive.com/harris_poll/index.asp?PID=111
#109 Posted by arjun_m on January 9, 2004 1:10:48 pm
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#108 Posted by JiyaJale on January 9, 2004 1:10:48 pm
Regarding #102 Urstruly. No problem. I am cool. We both have roots in India, however entangled and however corrupted by politicians on both sides. Now don’t say that only one side is to blame cause then we’ll have an argument.
#107 Posted by sadna on January 9, 2004 1:10:47 pm
Can anyone provide an email address to reach Harish Nambiar (which he wouldnot mind being provided on public forum)?
#106 Posted by harimau on January 9, 2004 1:10:47 pm
Ref stuka #99
[``I believe I suggested collective fines ``
No Sir, you did not. You suggested surrounding Mahim with tanks and stopping the supply of food and water.]
Ah yes. That was my response to the Bombay bombings. I figured if anybody gave comfort to the enemy, he should pay for that. I don`t believe I said anything about shelling the buildings though. Just a siege.
[Right out of Reinhrd Heydrich`s book.]
Not really since I haven`t read that book. More like out of that movie (The Siege?) with Bruce Willis in it. You know, the US Army kind of invades NYC in response to terrorist bombings. I was thoroughly impressed by that movie.
I would say it was Reinhard Heidrich`s book if it were true but I really haven`t read any of his books. I generally avoid German and Russian authors; I find their prose turgid.
Please do provide me with a reading list. I would appreciate it very much. I would like to diversify from the history of the US, India, etc., into something else.
[``I believe I suggested collective fines ``
No Sir, you did not. You suggested surrounding Mahim with tanks and stopping the supply of food and water.]
Ah yes. That was my response to the Bombay bombings. I figured if anybody gave comfort to the enemy, he should pay for that. I don`t believe I said anything about shelling the buildings though. Just a siege.
[Right out of Reinhrd Heydrich`s book.]
Not really since I haven`t read that book. More like out of that movie (The Siege?) with Bruce Willis in it. You know, the US Army kind of invades NYC in response to terrorist bombings. I was thoroughly impressed by that movie.
I would say it was Reinhard Heidrich`s book if it were true but I really haven`t read any of his books. I generally avoid German and Russian authors; I find their prose turgid.
Please do provide me with a reading list. I would appreciate it very much. I would like to diversify from the history of the US, India, etc., into something else.
#105 Posted by arjun_m on January 9, 2004 9:57:38 am
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#104 Posted by arjun_m on January 9, 2004 9:46:31 am
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#103 Posted by sadna on January 9, 2004 9:46:31 am
Bolungi tho bolengey ki bolthi hai. However, I agree almost totally with Farzana`s article, comments not so sure.
Re Haj subsidies.
It is infinitely better if India subsidises Haj of Indians than if Saudi Arabia or people sitting in foreign countries subsidise it.
Unlike Farzana`s and perhaps others POV that `deen-bandhu` abroad can easily fund religious enterprises, I will point out that is the surest recipe for outsiders religious wars to fought by proxy on Indian soil. Take a look at Pakistan if you want to understand my point.
Foreign funded religious activities inevitably breed zealots as a profitable commerical enterprise, this is shown to be true of Hindus, Christians and Sikhs not only Muslims.
Let Indians and the Indian government not surrender national and religious sovereignty to the the various moneyed enterprises abroad eager to globalize their religiosity.
I want my Muslim countrymen to do Haj, since it is their religious obligation and a long Indian tradition(didnot Akbar ask the Portugese to protect ships taking Indians to do Haj), and I want them to do it with Indian money. Simple. I ALSO support the recent amendments which say Haj subsidy will be provided once a lifetime, to nonincome-tax payers and the govt. arranged accomodation thingy may be a way to reduce fraud, which has been an issue with Haj committees, unfortunately.
Re Indian press in Pakistan. I agree 100%. Khilaao pilaao, Ghazal sunaao, take away their wits. There was a Daily Times report on female Indian journalists virtually swooning over Musharraf.
I wondered, if he had been an INDIAN , who like Musharraf rigged a referendum, who amended the constitution single-handedly,who refused to allow opposition leaders to return to India to fight elections, who put together a ministry using the secret service, who refused to address Parliament for many months even after he got it to give him 3 year extension, who was a millionaire in his own right due to government largesse, would the Indian press have similarly swooned over him?
However disliking the Indian press attitude and disliking the BJP doesnot mean that I donot support peace efforts a BJP Prime Minister and Cabinet are making as part of the government. Life is complex, one can support some initiatives of a party one will never vote for without becoming dharm brasht.
I oppose any move by BJP/ Centre to `set up a secular Muslim party`. After accusing everybody and his uncle of `pseudo-secularism` what BJP offered as alternative was blatant communalism. And talking of `separate Muslim party`(if they indeed did), they sink Indian politics even deeper into the Two Nation Theory pit. Some secularism!
While I would it not put it past the BJP to attempt any such a thing, please do verify that this is indeed the case(that it is setting up a separate Muslim party). This is the only newsarticle I found, from the Deccan Chronicle, mostly based on `sources` and only one direct quote in the last paragraph:
http://indiamonitor.com/news/readCatFullNews.jsp?ni=1823&ct=India
“..At our meeting (in March)’’ said Jamiat Ulema-e-Hind chief Maulana Mehmud Madani, “we suggested a secular party which would represent Muslim cause. But that was shot down by Maulana Bukhari who suggested we should float an only Muslim party. But we opposed it.’’ The latest meeting of clerics was held recently in Lucknow to discuss the formation of the party. Bukhari was not available for comments.``
Re Haj subsidies.
It is infinitely better if India subsidises Haj of Indians than if Saudi Arabia or people sitting in foreign countries subsidise it.
Unlike Farzana`s and perhaps others POV that `deen-bandhu` abroad can easily fund religious enterprises, I will point out that is the surest recipe for outsiders religious wars to fought by proxy on Indian soil. Take a look at Pakistan if you want to understand my point.
Foreign funded religious activities inevitably breed zealots as a profitable commerical enterprise, this is shown to be true of Hindus, Christians and Sikhs not only Muslims.
Let Indians and the Indian government not surrender national and religious sovereignty to the the various moneyed enterprises abroad eager to globalize their religiosity.
I want my Muslim countrymen to do Haj, since it is their religious obligation and a long Indian tradition(didnot Akbar ask the Portugese to protect ships taking Indians to do Haj), and I want them to do it with Indian money. Simple. I ALSO support the recent amendments which say Haj subsidy will be provided once a lifetime, to nonincome-tax payers and the govt. arranged accomodation thingy may be a way to reduce fraud, which has been an issue with Haj committees, unfortunately.
Re Indian press in Pakistan. I agree 100%. Khilaao pilaao, Ghazal sunaao, take away their wits. There was a Daily Times report on female Indian journalists virtually swooning over Musharraf.
I wondered, if he had been an INDIAN , who like Musharraf rigged a referendum, who amended the constitution single-handedly,who refused to allow opposition leaders to return to India to fight elections, who put together a ministry using the secret service, who refused to address Parliament for many months even after he got it to give him 3 year extension, who was a millionaire in his own right due to government largesse, would the Indian press have similarly swooned over him?
However disliking the Indian press attitude and disliking the BJP doesnot mean that I donot support peace efforts a BJP Prime Minister and Cabinet are making as part of the government. Life is complex, one can support some initiatives of a party one will never vote for without becoming dharm brasht.
I oppose any move by BJP/ Centre to `set up a secular Muslim party`. After accusing everybody and his uncle of `pseudo-secularism` what BJP offered as alternative was blatant communalism. And talking of `separate Muslim party`(if they indeed did), they sink Indian politics even deeper into the Two Nation Theory pit. Some secularism!
While I would it not put it past the BJP to attempt any such a thing, please do verify that this is indeed the case(that it is setting up a separate Muslim party). This is the only newsarticle I found, from the Deccan Chronicle, mostly based on `sources` and only one direct quote in the last paragraph:
http://indiamonitor.com/news/readCatFullNews.jsp?ni=1823&ct=India
“..At our meeting (in March)’’ said Jamiat Ulema-e-Hind chief Maulana Mehmud Madani, “we suggested a secular party which would represent Muslim cause. But that was shot down by Maulana Bukhari who suggested we should float an only Muslim party. But we opposed it.’’ The latest meeting of clerics was held recently in Lucknow to discuss the formation of the party. Bukhari was not available for comments.``