My SAARC Diary

Arjunm

``Terrorist State?`` What terrorist state? I think it is you hindus who have to get their heads out of their asses now. Once before I have interacted with you about your criteria of measuring the credibility of a state with the measuring tool of American approval. If this is the criteria we are going to use then probably you know that this terrorist state is one of the greatest recipient of American financial and military aid recently. The most interesting thing is the fact that this aid also includes an arms deal as well and even more inetersting is the fact that Americans will pay for this deal for next five years. Now just imagine that you go to a car dealership, chose a car and when you are ready to pay the dealer tells you that the car is on the house - no need to pay. Now imagine it starts happening at every store you go to and people tell you that there is no need to pay because everything is on the house. That is exactly what is happening to Paksitan at this moment. It`s debts are being paid off, arms are for free, and pocket money is on top of that. It doesn`t happen to terrorist states ok? Your banya mind should understand this logic very well. So, are the deals that are being offered to Paksitan are also being offered to India as well? No. Your approval rating and credibility is non existent if we use your criteria - well almost. Yes, India is being offered with arms deals as well but how. India will have to put probably 5 million additional prostitutes on the streets of Bombay and probably 10 million more people will have to live on the footpaths of Calcutta to put one Indian pilot behind one F-16, right? Now wake up and smell the coffee ( after you get your head out of your daal khor ass). And by the way some of the arms that are coming to Paksitan, are coming from S. Dakota. Read newspapers - not the hindu ones but the joos ones, ok?

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re:#49 by Urstruly
Mullahji,
If you do not hear (as i do) the cries of Mushy, the Supreme Mujahir whose GUBOed A$$ (GUBO for the uninitiated means: Grease Up Bend Over) has been rammed out of shape by Uncle Sam, it is not my fault.
But then, i hear your own A$$ has been hijacked.
My sympathes.
Sridhar

>>What will all the India-Pakistan chowk warriors, cross-border spitters, and plain morons (``I was just following my governments propoganda line``) do once indo-pak relations are normalized?

Will they, like the japanese fool who continued his own one man war for 20 years after WWII was over, continue their spitting contests on chowk?

Will the change in their government`s policies so confuse them that they`ll all go berserk and start chewing on their keyboards?

Or will they, perhaps, actually learn to walk and talk like grown men? <<

Couldn`t agree more. It`s amazing that for once there is being more sense shown by Indo/Pak politicians and the common man in our region than supposedly educated internet community. I haven`t been here long, but some of the idiots here seem to enjoy wallowing in the past 50 years of misery.

rsridhar

``...............has been rammed out of shape by Uncle Sam``

I don`t think so. The ground reality is that the US and other imperialist mercenaries would not last probably beyond a month in Afghanistan, without Pakistan`s helps. And without Paksitan`s help, it would be a miracle, if puppet regime in Kabul lasts more than 10 days in Kabul. Pakistan holds the keys to their survival and Americans know that very well, otherwise Americans are the people who would even sell their mothers if they see an opportunity to make a dollar somewhere lest they would provide financial and military cooperation to Paksitan without any interest of their own. Don`t you read newspapers; Paksitan has been supplying nuclear weapons technology to Lybia, Korea, and Iran - the axis of evil - and it didn`t even get a slap on the wrist. Wonderful, ain`t it? Now if this very fact sets the tails of hindus and jews on fire then it is not our fault. Who told them (US) to stick their finger where it didn`t belong. I guess it was you, hindus, right?

Harimau:

``
SO UNLESS YOU HAVE EVIDENCE OF SUBSIDIES FOR THE KAILAS-MANASAROVAR YATRA, YOU SHOULD STOP THIS FALSE PROPAGANDA IMMEDIATELY. ``

You don`t have to shout.....

http://www.parliamentofindia.nic.in/lsdeb/ls10/ses7/0526079301.htm

SHRI MOHAN RAWALE:

Will the Minister of EXTERNAL AFFAIRS be pleased to state:

(a) whether the Government are providing any subsidy of monetary grant to pilgrims going abroad on religious pilgrimages;

(b) if so, the details thereof;

(c) the amount spent on such subsides/ grants durnig the last three years, year-wise and pilgrimage-wise;

(d) the norms prescribed for providing such subsidies;

(e)whether the Government have any plans

to review the scheme; and

(f) if so, the details thereof?

THE MINISTER OF EXTERNAL AFFAIRA (SHRI DINESH SINGH): (a) to (b) Government of India have been providing organisation and logistical support to the Hindu/Sikh pilgrims visiting shrines in Pakistan: pilgrims visiting Kailash Mansarovar: and Mulsim pilgrims proceeding for Haj to Makkah. In the case of Haj pilgrims, besides the organisational assistance. Government have been arranging special fares both by sea and air.



So, yes, the subsidy provided is more in case o Haj travellers as Air Fair is fixed. Interestingly enough the BJP government INCREASED the amount of subsidy though there was no organized demand. (Just found this out from doing a google search)

Looks to me as a repeat of the Shah Bano case. Government proposes and appeases. Common Muslims get the stick from people like you though they are no party to the process in the first place.

Why ?

Harimau:

So when are you advising collective punishment for Hindus who vote for Muslim Appeasing politicians?

Govt under fire for tinkering with Haj subsidy

TIMES NEWS NETWORK[ TUESDAY, DECEMBER 23, 2003 02:15:02 AM ]
NEW DELHI : The traditional secular-communal fault-line today once again surfaced in the Lok Sabha with the opposition protesting against the government’s move to deny Haj subsidy to the creamy layer.


Congress and the opposition which raked up the Haj subsidy issue in the House saw Union civil aviation minister Rajiv Pratap Rudy sticking to the government’s stand that the rationalisation of subsidy will not be abandoned.

The opposition members kicked up a row when Mr Rudy repeated the three restrictions cleared by the Cabinet. “The subsidy for Haj pilgrimage can be availed of once in a lifetime; only those staying at the accommodation provided by the Haj committee would be eligible for subsidy and lastly income-tax payers would not be entitled for any subsidy,” the minister said even as his party colleagues insisted that no one should have any quarrel with these restrictions.

Mr Rudy said all the 72,000 Haj pilgrims going this year had been asked to file affidavits confirming whether they fulfilled the conditions and so far 55,000 of them had done so. He said affidavits could be filed after check-in at airports where notaries would be present to help them.

As expected, the opposition took strong exception to the government stand, and Congress chief whip Priyaranjan Dasmunsi described it as “absolutely improper” and said it was for the first time that such conditions have been imposed on the pilgrims. “The conduct of the government is condemnable,” he added.

Compared to the Rs 12,000 subsidy for Haj pilgrims, devotees visiting Kailash Mansarovar are given Rs 3,250. The amount is given to the Kumaon Vikas Madal for providing facilities to the Hindu pilgrims.


...I read thru the whole story. Not a single Muslim organization mentioned, not a single Muslim politician mentioned....why is that???

Interestingly enough...here`s another article...this time from a Muslim. Maybe he is friends with your driver??

Politics of Haj
Author: M A Siraj
Publication: The Times of India
Date: September 3, 2002

Introduction: Subsidy violates spirit of Islam
Subsidy may be a dirty word in the post-liberalisation era but the government continues to subsidise the air journey for the Haj pilgrimage for nearly 77,000 people who travel to Saudi Arabia every year from nearly 10 destinations in India. The government paid Rs 150 crore to Air-India for ferrying pilgrims for Haj 2002 (concluded in March) towards the subsidy it has been offering ever since sea voyages were replaced by the chartered flights around the end of the `80s.

A substantial section of Indian Muslims, including some MPs, has been opposing the subsidy on Haj. The opposition is on two counts. First, even from the Islamic point of view, state subsidy for Haj is untenable. The Koranic injunction is plain. One should perform Haj if he/she can afford the cost. And affordability includes the cost of the journey by contemporary means of travel. It was on the basis of this assumption that ship voyages were phased out 15 years ago at the behest of Saudi Arabia and air travel became the sole means.

Second, the Haj subsidy is one of the points on the list of myths propagated by the sangh parivar in their hate campaign against Muslims.

And unfortunately it is not a myth, but a sad reality which several Muslims are slowly realising and reluctantly questioning. Why should a secular state subsidise a pilgrimage when no Islamic government does so? There is a third angle too. Haj being a rich man`s ritual, the subsidy benefits the wealthy. It has encouraged them to go on the pilgrimage year after year. The Prophet himself performed it just once. A former central Haj committee chairman had once asked why a pilgrim needs a subsidy on the airfare to Jeddah when his baggage on the return journey is twice the weight he carries on the onward flights. That the Haj should become a camouflage for annual shopping trips for the rich Muslim is unacceptable.

A Haj pilgrim travelling from any point in India to Jeddah under the central Haj committee arrangements currently pays only Rs 12,000 towards airfare. This is far less than what one would pay for, say, a two-way air journey between Thiruvananthapuram and New Delhi. That is just one aspect. The dynamics of the Haj are such that flights that take pilgrims to Jeddah have to return empty and again fly empty to Jeddah after 40 days to bring the pilgrims back.

This would not be possible if the Haj were not so highly subsidised by the state. Undeniably, subsidy had a social purpose in the Indian context during the heyday of socialism. But subsidy for the Haj air journey could easily be categorised as fiscal profligacy This burden on the national exchequer is undesirable. A secular state could act as a facilitator for religious duties, can even make it cheaper, but in no way should be seen susbsidising sectarian rituals.

It also adds grist to the propaganda mill of the Hindutva lobby which sees the Haj subsidy as ``a tool of minority appeasement`` and demands subsidy for the Kailash Mansarovar Yatra to Tibet annually organised by the Central government. However unpalatable the language may be, there is some merit in the argument.

However, there exists a case for making Haj cheaper. In countries like Malaysia and Indonesia, the Haj boards mobilise savings from those aspiring to perform Haj. They invest the money in profitable ventures, disburse profits, take zakat out of the annual earnings and divert it for charitable purposes, charter planes, make bulk booking of dwellings and transport at holy sites. The Haj operations by Malaysia`s Tabung Haji, which even bagged the Magsaysay award for its exceptional services, need to be studied by the mandarins in the central Haj committee.

The committee being the biggest buyer of air tickets from Air-India could straightaway be granted a 33 per cent discount on fares. (There is a growing opinion that Haj flight operations and the subsidy are indirectly helping to keep the sagging economy of Air-India afloat and the company needs to come clean on this). Besides, the Haj committee could be given free hand in chartering flights and collecting excess baggage from the returning pilgrims. This will enable the central Haj committee to hire the services of international air carriers at much cheaper rates and, in all likelihood, the pilgrims would pay only 60 per cent of what a normal air journey to Jeddah costs.

Going a step further, the committee could also mobilise deposits, buy its own planes and lease them out to the national carrier during the non-Haj season. A proposal to this effect, i.e., to set up a Haj air corporation by some Muslim MPs has been submitted to the government.

The size of the official goodwill Haj delegation could be trimmed and more transparency could be introduced in the whole process in order to improve efficiency at all levels of the Haj administration.

The government would do well to set up a committee of well-meaning citizens in order to find out ways and means to make the Haj a cheaper and more pleasant exercise, remove subsidy and cap a source of competitive communalism.

Urstruly #49

Your analogy of car dealership does not fit. How many car dealerships are giving free cars to customers. The true analogy would be a `respectable` John and a prostitute. The John being the US government and the prostitute being the Pakistani army. The John enjoys and uses the postitute when he feels like it and compensates her for it. He disregards the unsavory aspects of it and even calls her dear. Also as a `respectible` citizen he contributes money for the rehablitations of the prostitutes. However once he had her for a while, he loses intertest and goes on to other things. In fact he may even go to the extent of punishing them if they don`t reform.

Re Mullah`s
``The ground reality is that the US and other imperialist mercenaries would not last probably beyond a month in Afghanistan, without Pakistan`s helps. And without Paksitan`s help, it would be a miracle, if puppet regime in Kabul lasts more than 10 days in Kabul.``

The veracity of that claim is as sterling as that of ``Tiger`` Niazi`s `Dhaka will fall over my dead body`. Or the more somber `One Pakistani soldier is equal to 10 Indian soldiers.` Or the even more colorful `Haske liya Pakistan, ladke lenge Hindustan`.

#30 stuka
Mushy was busy sabotaging the last serious peace effort. He has done nothing to earn india`s trust. If what`s motivating him is concern for his own life or external pressure, those are not good enough reasons for india to do deals with him. Once those contingencies wear off and his desire for peace is not sincere then any deals are not going to last.
More insidiously though, Vajpayee has been systematically legitimizing Mushy`s hijacking of pak polity. It has the effect of further strengethening pak military`s role in internal politics. This also works to India`s perpetual disadvantage vis-a-vis relations with Pak. We are telling the pakistanis, yes we agree that the military is your savior and they do represent you. India should insist that any peace talks will only take place with an elected civilian government. But then that might not happen in Vajpayee`s lifetime and he`s a man in a hurry...

You are right we and our allies would not last in Afghanistan beyond a month without Pakistan’s help, however a reminder Pakistan would not have lasted an Indian attack triggered by the parliament bombing, if we had not stepped in and held the Indians back. I don’t know what’s your origin, but those Pakistanis who think that their army is brave are under a delusion. Do you think an army can do two things at a time, govern and defend a country? If you ask a sane man the answer is hell no. So it’s quid pro quo between the Pakis and us. Sometimes I’m tempted to think it is Pakistan, who is the real problem rather than India or even Afghani Taliban. However, of course we can’t discipline Pakistan cause they’ve got the bomb, eh, Urstruly? Pakistan did get a slap on the wrist. Have not you heard that they questioned A.K. Khan over the allegations, and yeah do you still have those F-16’s that you paid for a long long time ago? Nope. So you got more than a slap on the wrist for that, eh? We stuck our finger in Afghanistan and are now in Iraq because we are bent on getting rid of those people who attacked us and killed our innocent citizens. (Of course you would say Jews did it or if that won’t work would say we had it coming because of who we are). If you can’t discern truth from fiction and blame everything on us (the United States) or Jews, what can my fellow Americans or I do? If I may suggest, you should begin reading unbiased newspapers. www.newyorktimes.com perhaps, but of course you would say it’s a Jewish newspaper, eh, right? Hope you don’t mind but are you an Islamic fundamentalist. The ones usually found in Saudi Arabia, vowing never to let women drive because they lack a penis. Never to let women go out without a chador, thus depicting them as black ghosts in a male chauvinist society, and here is a good one referring anyone to Koran who disputes the claim that women have to be covered up, right, Urstruly? Koran only preaches modesty and the meaning of modesty is subjective, eh, Urstruly? Is it not? Sorry I guess I said too much, just couldn’t contain my passion for some implicit truths and observations. No offense intended.

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I read posts #41, 42, 40 and think both sides are equally to blame. Urstruly would you deny that Pakistan has been backing insurgency into Indian Kashmir for over a decade? The only reason Pakistan had any ambition of acquiring the nukes was because of India. (By the way India got the nukes because of china, but that’s another story.) I don`t deny that India should have held plebiscite in Kashmir a long time ago, but if Pakistan demands that plebiscite take place only in Indian Kashmir then it’s not fair. Why does Pakistan assume that Azad Kashmir residents are going to stick with Pakistan and not opt for independence? I also think when negotiating, India should act like a ‘big brother’ and defer to Pakistan, since India is bigger in size and richer with resources. But Pakistan also has to show some flexibility, since India can’t just kneel, explicitly admit its mistakes without Pakistan admitting its, and hand Kashmir to Pakistan on a platter. As long as Pakistan does not confess its mistakes why should India? But there is good news and that is both countries are now on the verge of something critical and this time the credit goes to both Musharraf and Vajpayee. Political issues are not as easy as one might think. What’s easy is sticking to one’s own opinion and squirting at other’s, without admitting one’s own mistakes.

On a lighter note:

``Musharraf on the last day, during the last moments, astonished everyone by announcing that he would address a press conference. Indians perceived Musharraf as a person who is witty and thinks very quick. ‘He is the darling of Indian women,’ Vinod Sharma, political editor of Hindustan Times told TFT. Many female Indian journalists did not hesitate to admit that they were fascinated by his charismatic personality. ‘He is the most charming leader of Pakistan,’ remarked a young Indian journalist who had asked him when was he coming to India.`` (http://www.thefridaytimes.com/)

Apparently, Pakistanis still got it, big-time, in the looks department. Musharraf is probably considered one of the not-so-good looking leaders of Pakistan, within Pakistan. If he is the, ``darling of the Indian women,`` then imagine what will happen to the Indian women, if Imran Khan ever becomes President (or if Maulana Fazl-ur-Rahman decides to go clean-shaven. Or if Nawaz Sharif gets a hair trasplant. Or if Jamali decides to join a gym.)

IT, Pharmeceuticals, Tea and democratic systems are good, but they can only take a person so far. In the end, its the looks that get the girls (or the female journalists, as in this case).........

re: #63

...yes, i`m sure rajiv gandhi had a few words to say about zia the beauty too...