French Not the Only Offenders on Hijab

_digit #152
``The criticism is: ``Why is it after such a long period of declaring particular values as fundamental to your culture, you seem to be turning your back on them once Muslims are added to the equation?``

Which particular values? That the French have turned their back on their values once Muslims are added to the equation is your interpretation only, for which you provide no basis.

Read nasah #94.

``Rubbish. The Muslim world as a whole makes no claims about non-Muslim governments aside from a few...the USA and Israel are the only ones that come to mind. Aside from that, there`s no consensus. Where the hell are you coming up with this garbage?``

Firstly, it is not garbage. It could be described as debatable, but it is not garbage by any means.

A simple example out of many is Mahathir Mohammad`s speech to OIC :
http://www.oicsummit2003.org.my/speech_03.php

``..To begin with, the Governments of all the Muslim countries can close ranks and have a common stand if not on all issues, at least on some major ones, such as on Palestine. We are all Muslims. We are all oppressed. We are all being humiliated. But we who have been raised by Allah above our fellow Muslims to rule our countries have never really tried to act in concert in order to exhibit at our level the brotherhood and unity that Islam enjoins upon us...``


``28. None of our countries are truly independent. We are under pressure to conform to our oppressors` wishes about how we should behave, how we should govern our lands, how we should think even.

29. Today if they want to raid our country, kill our people, destroy our villages and towns, there is nothing substantial that we can do. ``

``30. Our only reaction is to become more and more angry. Angry people cannot think properly. And so we find some of our people reacting irrationally. They launch their own attacks, killing just about anybody including fellow Muslims to vent their anger and frustration. Their Governments can do nothing to stop them. The enemy retaliates and puts more pressure on the Governments. And the Governments have no choice but to give in, to accept the directions of the enemy, literally to give up their independence of action.``



Who are these `they`, the `detractors` and `oppressors` and `enemies`` of 1.3 billion Muslims that Mahathir Mohammed is talking of, 1.3 billion Muslims who are all humiliated, all oppressed? NonMuslims, that is who.

In other words, the primary problem facing 1.3 billion Muslims is that of their nonMuslims enemies, in other words. Instead of pointing out how Muslim governments(of which only 2-3 are democracies) need to be more democratic and responsive to their people`s needs, he talks of all Muslims getting ready for the defence of the ummah against nonMuslims and their governments.

The guy`s speech got a standing ovation from the Muslim heads of state there.

Musharraf`s speeches and the Pakistani media offer many many prime examples of such double standards.

Take even calls for war crime trials of Saddam. Arabs and Muslim world collectively or severally, account for almost none of these calls. Only Iraqis who were sufferers are calling for Saddam`s prosecution.

Now, if Saddam had been a nonMuslim, there would have, in contrast, been a lot of anger at his mass killings of Muslims, as is seen wrt Bosnia. Angry Muslims didnot go to Iraq to fight a jihad against his government, as they went to fight the jihad in Bosnia.

Ahmadzai:

``I will request not to pay much attention to hate religion posts``

Rest assured, I do not think you as being a religious bigot. You and I disagree on nationalist issues, and will probably continue to disagree. But that is fine. I do not take that personally. I have a healthy respect for nationalists actually. :)

Ahmedzai#159 That is a fine post. I agree that the negative impression that many indians have of Pakistanis reflects their ignorance of Pakistan and Pakistanis. It has taken me three years on chowk before I finally seem to have convinced jay that I meant what I wrote when I said that as muslims we are expected in the Quran to respect all religions, including hinduism.

PS: That leaves only 1 billion 200 million more people to convince, which means I should have convinced every Indian in about 3.6 billion years from now (just in time before the sun inflates to become a red giant and envelopes the earth, per current scientific predictions). (Actually it is not that bad - after all, if chowk is representative, only about 50 percent Indians think that Pakistanis bear a grudge against hindus.)

Your are of course quite accurate when you write ``We are not taught to love Hindus either, ``. This is the result of 50 years of political tensions.

And I am with you 100 percent when you write ``but I believe that Hinduism is one of the most beautiful religions and a truly great Way of Life on top of religion.`` I think, as responsible pakistani citizens, it is our duty to promote goodwill with Indians where ever we can - even if it is on chowk. Any fool can sit and throw insults and empty threats on chowk, but it takes a wise person to think positively as you have done.

Hopefully, as India - Pakistan political tensions ease, we will have more and more people on both sides of the border starting to appreciate our rich heritage and (more importantly) looking to one another as partners in a common cause which is focussed on the betterment of the people of both countries. With India becoming an increasingly dynamic and economically progressive country, I have no doubt that we Pakistanis will find this easing of political tensions to be a major part of the solution to our problems - not just economic and political, but cultural as well.

Malik #160 you write ``You wrote in one of your rants that the hijab wearing women in france have been ``gang raped`` into wearing hijab by their fathers and brothers.``

You are a liar. I never said ``by their fathers and brothers``. I did say ``gang raped`` because these are matters of the public record, and I read an interview of one such victims of such a gang rape.

If you disagree that you are a liar, cut and paste what I wrote to disprove what I say. Unlike you mullahs, I dont make up convenient things. I stick to the facts.

Malik #160 as for your references to my mother and grandmother, I will be glad to respond to you in person. And you will not be talking so cleverly by the time I am done with you, rest assured.

Only a low life would make sexual references to people`s mothers and grandmothers. This is simply another illustration of my earlier point that the only language you mullahs understand is that of a stick.

Malik #160 The rest of your post is the kind of garbage that one would expect from a lowlife mullah. I wrote you a post giving references to the Quran, and you respond by ignoring the Quran and telling my that I am due 100 lashes. This is the standard mullah way of trying to intimidate people.

Since you live in the west, these above are empty threats. If you were ever to be in Pakistan where law and order still largely depends on how well connected you are, rest assured that I could have you strung and lashed in any police thana in the country. So you would be advised to try and not succumb to the training received from your mullah masters of responding to questions you cannot answer by issuing threats of physical violence.

I wrote you a post #157 with references to the Quran, with the basic message being to use your mind and to trust your eyes and giving you the benefit of the doubt of being a well meaning man. You responded with false allegations and threats (as I have explained above) and filth: this proves that you have no respect for the religion you claim to follow, and illustrate your mullah mindset.

Go to hell, along with the mullah rascals who you worship. I have wasted enough time with you.

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gujjubania 153:

``Nah...you are just a eunuch.``

Since you yourself admitted that you are a moronicbania and a proof is that you put moronicbania as your signatures in one of the messages, let me tell you one thing plainly that its not good to bring your family reality on the web. I am not your father as you know him. You need to continue the search for the one. Lord will help you in getting to him.

Also once again, killing minorities and destroying their symbols as an organized mass and then elevating the culprits to the status of CMs, ministers and Deputy PMs is not a good thing to do.

Finally, you need to learn how to quote and infer data. Although I am not your father, I can help you in that direction.

:-)

MaheshG2 at # 155 and Stuka at # 156:

I will request not to pay much attention to hate religion posts. Kindly note that unlike many who feel that in Pakistan we are taught to hate Hindus, the reality is different. We are not taught to love Hindus either, but I believe that Hinduism is one of the most beautiful religions and a truly great Way of Life on top of religion. Many Pakistanis who watch Indian movies are appreciative of this way of life full of cultural values that reflect our (Pakistanis` )cultural values too. Pakistanis who have had an interaction with `Hindus` in the USA and Canada (posters like romair) attribute the Indian success in service industries to `Hindu` Sanskar.

You might have seen my hate-some chowksters messages too. This is not because as a Pakistani I dislike those `Hindus`, but because I believe that under the present scenario where Muslims, Hindus, Christians, Sikhs, etc, of sub-continent are moving towards peace and general feeling of `togetherness`, they are not letting go of their fanaticism.

If I have hurt your feelings I apologize (I don`t compartmentalize people into religious groups). And I know many Pakistanis here like Tauheed, romair, nazarhayat, his excellency, etc. are not Hindu haters too.

Stuka also wrote:

``I will request Ahmadzai to invite Urstruly to the gay love photo session as well. ``

hehehe. As you might have noticed that I have requested urstruly many times to clearly state his position on many instances. He has never reponded. And I am skeptical on this one too.

;-)

tahmed32 #157 - You are asking us to learn to respect women. Let me remind you how you respect women. You wrote in one of your rants that the hijab wearing women in france have been ``gang raped`` into wearing hijab by their fathers and brothers. Now, I am pretty sure that your mother or your grandmother used to wear hijab. Would you tell us their story on how they were gang raped into wearing that? There genuinely are women and girls out there who want to wear what they like- including your own sisters and mothers.

Now let me tell you about your slavery. Do you know that orthodox jewsih women are required to shave their heads and wear fake hair. However, that practice seems to have skipped your allegation keen eye. Its because your masters have told you that you can call YOUR brothers rapists, and your sisters raped, but you DARE not even look at OUR women. And like a good slave, you are abiding that rule.

I have lived in the west long enough to know that being anti-religion is a fashionable thing to do these days. However, when westerners are ant-religion, they have a studied approach towards it. They have rational arguments to support their stance. In your case, the best argument you came up with was that hijab wearing girls have been ``gang raped``.

My friendly advice to you is to study Quran once again. If you had read quran, as you claim you have, you would have known what the punishment is for a person who knowingly makes a false allegation about rape. In my opinion he should be sodomized. In Quran`s opinion it may be something like 100 lashes. Check it out.

In Bangladesh, the percentage of Hindu population came down to 10% from 20% in 1971.

``The %age of Hindus in Pakistan in 1947 as quoted by Indians has ranged from 5% to 30%. To summarize the discussion with dost mittar: people of Hindu faith migrated to India and Muslims migrated to Pakistan from India immediately after independence, well to do Hindus continued to migrate to the West, East Pakistan having higher population of Hindus secceeded from us in 1971 and the rate of growth of Muslims is definitely higher than any other people, unfortunately. As the Muslim out-produced Hindus in Pakistan, the latter`s population as a percentage decreased. ``

Why did the Hindus keep migrating to the west in Pakistan? Simple, because Pakistanis made life hell for them.

Samething happened in Bangladesh too. Terrible.

Bunch of hypocrites, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis. They will purge their own society of their minorities and harp about the rights of minorities in India.

malik #142 Your continued ridicule of my views by terming them ``slavish of the west`` is a standard technique of the mullah to stamp out any opposition to his viewpoint. This is the same technique that results in women being ridiculed as having lose sexual morals if they refuse to wear the burqa.

I in fact am a slave to no man. As proof, you need go no further than go ove my previous posts to you: I have based my arguments and conclusions on (a) FACTS that I have established for myself (e.g. the hypocrisy of the jamaatiya`s and mullahs and other bearded scumbags, and the mockery that they have made of the Holy Quran) and (b) on LOGIC, and not on a parroting of the party line (as you do when you parrot the mullah view of anyone who is not their slave is a slave of the west).

Thus, when I call a man a kafir, I base it on facts and on logic - i.e. having established for myself their lack of respect for Quranic injuctions, logic dictates that they cannot be called muslims (since a muslim by definition is an individual who believes that the Quran is the message of God as conveyed to man). If I had found the Quran to be contrary to my understanding of what is right and what is wrong, rest assured I would have rejected it explicity. That is the way of thinking of a free man. I would not have, like ``muslims`` like you, continued to pay lip service to the Quran while looking instead to the ``hadith`` for direction. The Quran tells me in broad terms how to live my life as human - above all, it tells me to listen to my conscience. In doing so, the Quran sets me free - to not follow any party line if my eyes and my mind tell me that the party line is wrong.

The followers of hadith on the other the ones who are slaves. Since they seek to be told at every step how they are supposed to act. A muslim can never be a slave, nor does he look up to or look down upon any man. You, the maudoodites, are born slaves and will die slaves, parroting the mullah party line while ignoring your God-given gifts of two eyes and a brain.

Since I am writing in english, I will indeed use english words and phrases (``hijacking of islam by islamists``), and that does not make me a slave to anyone. Language is a superficial thing that is important to superficial people - I am interested in ideas. If you like I can use urdu or panjabi words to describe your kind.

Finally, I will agree with you that we should focus on ideas, not on personal attacks. You would be more convincing if you had followed your own advice and had focussed on the fundamental questions I raised rather than ignoring them and declaring me to be a slave of the west. But to do that you would no doubt have to unlearn the nonsense that you have no doubt learnt from childhood, and that would be too much to expect from any man. So, I will leave you with these thoughts: use your head rather than parroting what you have learnt. Learn to respect women as individual human beings.

Trust the Quran when it calls upon men to lower their gaze before women. Dont trust the mullah when he tells you that it is OK to tease and harass women if you think they are not dressed properly. Learn to study the Quran and to use your head and decide - honestly - for yourself what the message is.

I dont expect you to agree right away - but one day you may look back and realize that what I am showing you is the true path of Islam. Not the path that the hijackers who are your gods have taken. If it makes it easier, remind yourself that the Quran itself says that we should reject (respectfully) what our parents have taught us if we do not consider it to be correct.

All of the above free advice is based on the assumption that you are a well-meaning but badly misled man. That assumption may of course not be true. But my job is to give free advice to wayward strangers, and I have just done that, and now will do some real work.

MaheshG2:

``) ``inferiority complex infested Hindus ``

2) ``bayghairat ghatia hindus``

3) ``most abysmal level-the hindu level``

4) ``Well I know it is true that Hindus do not have any moral or social values of their own. ``

Followed by:

``No malice for anyone. My message is love. ``


Urstruly is misunderstood. His message is love, but it is the Pathanesque kind. Love as experienced from the rear end.

I will request Ahmadzai to invite Urstruly to the gay love photo session as well.

Urstruely,

The cateist hindooes are at it again.. boston globe says...

``Thanks to the 4,000-year-old Hindu caste system, which has always separated villages by economic and social type, the gated community perfectly suits Indian society,``

Interestingly the architect and president of these gated communities company are descendents of great liberators..

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2004/01/25/inside_the_gates/

1) ``inferiority complex infested Hindus ``

2) ``bayghairat ghatia hindus``

3) ``most abysmal level-the hindu level``

4) ``Well I know it is true that Hindus do not have any moral or social values of their own. ``

Followed by:

``No malice for anyone. My message is love. ``

LOL!!

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