A Waste of National Resource

PS: As for your claim about `UN Nomenclature` ... that is not where the official name comes from... In the UN Nomenclature Pakistan is simply Pakistan and India is simply India. Iran on the other hand is Islamic Republic of ...

http://www.un.org/Overview/unmember.html

Official name is something quite different... India`s official name is Republic of India, though the first article defines it as Union of states. Vajapayee is the Prime Minister of the Republic of India. In the UN he is the Prime Minister of India.

Pakistani constitution`s first article says : `Pakistan shall be a federal Republic to be known as the Islamic Republic of Pakistan`.

Turkish constitution`s first article says: `Turkish state is a Republic` ... henceforth it refers to Turkey as the republic of Turkey... second article says `The Republic of Turkey is a democratic, secular and social state`

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An aside : The constitution that Ataturk had given to Turkey (1924) actually had a state religion as well that is Islam... In 1928 this was amended at Ataturk`s instructions.. in 1937 secularism was made part of the constituion as a matter of state policy.

Gujjubania

Pyaray Betay... you spoke of GDP/Capita first and there is the difference is extremely small... as for PPP the difference is about 400 dollars ... India is approximately at 2530 and Pakistan is at 2100 after a decade of mismanagement.

The truth in real terms is very different.... because of the PPP poverty line is also different in Pakistan... and it often forgotten by these statistics churners that along the class divide needs are different ... which means in very real terms at a large percentage of those 34% of Pakistan`s poor are significantly better off than the 27% of the Indian poor.

So before you start attacking us why don`t you first come up with a creative solution to help those 300 million of your citizens who live on a subsistence level of less than a dollar a day.

I am sure it is a great achievment for a country 10 times our population to have an economy 10 times as large... Hats off to India.


Ballu Khan,

We the `secular fanatics` (as Romair likes to call a bunch of us) have been having this debate with him since 2001... I think I know a little better than you what he means. My purpose for bringing up the official name issue was that while we secularists only want to create a simple `Republic of Pakistan` ... the Islamist or Muslim minded people already have managed to call it the `Islamic Republic of Pakistan`. Anyway its clear from my post that I am talking about the official name.

The first time I read the Turkish constitution was in early 2000 and I quoted it on chowk extensively because I am and will always be a Kemalist at heart... I know enough to know that the word used there `Laicete` goes beyond simple secularism but also allows state supremacy and control over the church. It is also one of the 6 arrows of Kemalism which is the state ideology of Turkey.

In my letters in Pakistani newspapers I have often referred to the Indian constitution as the superior constitution ... I first read the Indian constitution as part of my research for the `Economics of India ` class that I took at Rutgers...then I read more about it as part of my research on perhaps the greatest man produced by your country i.e. Dr. Ambedkar.

I was well aware of the quotes your put up.

-YLH

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I reproduce you words YLH--

``#92 by Mantolives on February 2, 2004 10:22pm PT
Romair,

``Secular Republic of Pakistan``

Do you know of any `secular` state which calls itself `Secular Republic`... name any secular state which has the word secular in it.

When you make a state secular you simply take religion out of governance... are Hindus in India not Hindu? Are Christians in America not christian? Are Muslims in Turkey and Tunisia not Muslim?

People and nations are not secular... states are ... Turks are a Muslim nation but their state is secular...

-YLH ````

Tell me now where did the ``Official Name`` figure in. Romair was talking about the ``State`` which obviously is ``constituted`` by its constitution and the Acts and Rules thereof- the Preamble being the defining characteristic of any Nation-State`s constitution and not its ``Official Name`` which is a UN desgination mainly for international nomenclature purposes. So stop indulging in semantics and being intellectually dishonest . I can see that you obviously require more education - how about starting with Rawls, Hayek , Habermas.... I can give you a list which you actually require to read if you think you have mastered you Pak Study books.

Whereas It is heartening to note that you have the honesty to admit that like me, you too, include yourself among the class which is responsible for the mess we have created for the noble and God-fearing Pakistanis.

The others still have to be shown this light. The crows who think they look like swans (attire) and sing like nightingales (accent).

Please answer this so that a burden is lifted off your shoulders and you can go to sleep.
Does ANYONE has the answer? No wonder you guys don`t like the face in the mirror.

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#55 by echoboom on January 31, 2004 3:39pm PT
This being Madressa board.
Reprodued from Omar Qureishi board, where it awaited unanswered.

For F.R.Khan in particular:

Name EVEN ONE student from such schools pre or post-partition who has been an achiever in ANY field. Jobs, titles, and positions, and life-styles are NOT achievements

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#67 by echoboom on January 29, 2004 12:24pm PT
FerozeK:64

Your frustration and depression is understandabe. Still fiercely guarding american-accent?
Ears cocked to whatever is happening in Dixie? Still avoiding masjids and maulanaas.

Worry not. You WILL be re-nativised (assimilated? mainstreamed?) alongwith other english-accent-schools ( I wish I could call them madrassas but that would be elevating their status).

Name ONE student from such schools pre or post-partition who has been an achiever in ANY field. Jobs, titles, and positions, and life-styles are NOT achievements.

Let me elaborate Shaukat Aziz vs Agha Hasan Abadi.(madressa)--(you get the drift?)

now more from maktab and madrassas: abdul salaam, Quadeer Khan, Dr. Ali Rajput, abdul sattar edhi, Faiz, Iqbal, Pitras , Quasmi, Manto etc etc (you keep thinking of many others in ANY field and give me just ONE name) who is from accented-schools who can match them)

How does it feel to be in the gutter now. Yes I am in that gutter of the colonised-culture and that is THE issue here.

Ferozek #101: ``but there others in Pakistan who still think they have the all solutions and they force those solutions down upon us. It is those people I blame. ``

Yes, this is my whole point. This is the group that should be blamed. This is the group that you and I belong to. And I would agree with you if you state that this is the group that is confused. However, this group does not define what Pakistan is.

However, from your initial comments, I got the impression that you were highlighting the fact that all of Pakistan is confused about its creation and their reasons from being there. Not just this group (which by the way isn`t confused either; it just needs to keep bringing up issues, which strengthen its positions, furthur).

Perhaps I misunderstood your initial comments.

Gujju Bania...

Yes we are well aware that finally after 50 or so years your amazing Land India has finally exceeded Pakistan`s per capita by 10 or so dollars.... and on the HDI it has finally over shot Pakistan by 10 places. What is India`s current ranking after years of `progress`? 128? 120..
And now only 300 million or so Indians live on an income of less than a dollar a day.

That is no doubt quite an achievement for the Indians.

-YLH

PS: I don`t like getting into these stupid India-Pakistan matches ... like Arundhati Roy put it ... our comparison and rivalry is like that of the two poorest communities in a village...

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Ferozek,

Agreed with most of your last post addressed to me. If you recall I am the one who has been arguing for the longest time that Pakistan had more than just communal reasons for creation... for eg read my article `Muslim League`s Politics 1937-1947`... I am also saying the same thing... i.e. TNT is not solely based on religion, nor is Pakistan solely based on TNT.. so I don`t see a point of dispute . FYI I didn`t say that TNT was right either.. I said it was an imagined concept... so it was right for those who believed in it ...

The point which really busted my balls was the law of diminishing returns.


Gujjubania,

I am glad you think I am a nice chap.... you in my opinion are a horrible and disgusting human being. I am sticking it out here... so keep prophesizing doom... lies don`t stand for ever...

-YLH

Ballu Khan,

I know you are not proficient in English language but atleast try and keep up with the context. I am well aware of the constitution of Turkey ... I was talking about the official name.. it was in context of Romair`s repeated complaint that secularism requires calling the state `Secular Republic`. The same goes for India... Last time I checked the official name of India was not `Secular Socialist Republic`. Ofcourse some one as idiotic as you would hardly know the difference between `Features` of a constituion vs its official name...example:

Official Name : Republic of India
Salient features of the constution: Federal, secular, democratic, socialist

Official Name: Islamic Republic of Pakistan
Salient features of the constitution: Federal, Islamic , Democratic

Official Name: Republic of Turkey
Salient Features of the constitution: Unitary, Secular, Republican Parliamentary democracy



So Grow up read more and then come debate with me... till then remain busy with your stupid fantasies of imperial exploitation and the great Independence struggle.


-YLH

re: Romair # 100

Romair; the blame rests with the military, feudals, the rich industrial elites, urban educated Pakistanis, the bureacracy and in general, who ever had much given to them, but did not give to the poor what was expected from them. I do not believe in the facist dictum that the victim is responsible for the crime and such, why would I blame the poor of Pakistan?

I am as much as a part of the problem and given my status in Pakistani society, I have been a disappointment and I know this and I admit this openly, but there others in Pakistan who still think they have the all solutions and they force those solutions down upon us. It is those people I blame.

Ciao

Ferozek #96: ``Who do you think that I am blaming? Also, when did you become such a populist?``

I don`t think you are blaming anyone. However, it does seem like you are pointing to the people of Pakistan, and stating that they are confused about their identity, i.e. they don`t know what they want, why they are in Pakistan, which direction to take it, why it was created, etc.

And the point I am making is that they, like most human beings, so know what they want. It is evident from talking to them, from surveys, from their immigration patterns. They want to achieve the first two levels on Maslow`s hierarchy, which primarily revolve around security and economics (food).

As they try to struggle for that, the few amongst them, who have power, continually try to wrap the country up in pieces of paper and in theories, which on one day describe it as religious, the next day secular, the third day cultural and the fourth day ethnic.

A slightly larger group, which does not have direct political power, but has its economic needs taken care of independenly of Pakistan (a group that nearly all Chowk wallahs belong to) tries to evaluate Pakistan by looking at these pieces of paper. They do this because this is what they have been trained to do under the Western system of education, they have been brought up under. And because on the social hierarchy of Pakistan, they are far closer to the politically powerful group, then to the average Pakistani - who is basically an uneducated farmer working in rural areas.

Since they see a lot of confusion in the Constitutions and the Theories and the Legal Systems, much of which revolves around religion and ethnicity, they automatically assume that everyone in Pakistan is confused about its identity.

What they should realize is that there is no confusion. The common Pakistani wants economics, not Constiutions. He is not in Pakistan because of Theories, but because based on the options he has access to, this is the best one. He does not have the luxury to study Ghaznavi, Ghauri or even Jinnah. In fact, he does not have the luxury to study at all. Hence his views are formulated by his immediate economic needs.

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living the TNT,

There is agitation now by the ruling party to ban kite flying because it is a hindu custom and should be banned. There are thousands donating a few paise to the collection boxes in every shops so that jihadis could kill kafirs, per the dictates of TNT. In every mosque there is call for jihad and millions throng to them and listen, because it upholds pak creation of TNT. A few millions go to lasker meetings to hear about the killings of kafirs, to relive the acheivements of TNT.

re: Yasser # 88

The power went off and I was on the UPS. This is a follow up to my earlier post.

I have not made any U-turns. Starting from interact # 40 or around there, when this whole issue of TNT cropped up, the article I wrote talked about a need to re-examine the educational system in Pakistan and how the educational system was malfunctioning. There were a couple of posts, which talked about TNT and its influence on the Pakistani educational system and my argument, was that it (TNT in the historic context of Pakistan) needs to be examined.

History and the study of history forces us to be objective and review the past events in light of new thinkings and new experiences. History has to be continually re-examined and questioned. This can be also called revisonism, but by questioning and trying to understand events in different contexts, our awareness and understanding and knowledge also increases. Sadly, history and its lessons in Pakistan are not open to question and we teach history by forcing our student to memorize dates and acts of famous personalities and then vomit them as their exam answers. The inability to question history creates a historic dogma. TNT in Pakistan is a dogma. It is not open to question.

I was advocating that it should be questioned and you were defending it by saying that there was nothing wrong with TNT. I rejected TNT, because an objective reading of history suggests that there were more reasons to TNT and its claim can not be solely based on religion, as it is being taught and made to understand in Pakistan presently. I was arguing that TNT should be explained with all its nuances and not just as a religious reason for Pakistan. You seemed to object to that idea and argued other reasons for TNT than just religion. That is what I had been screaming all along but you never seemed to understand that point of logic. I have and had in fact, never changed the arguments, and it seemed to you that I had, because you were not willing to listen to what I had to say and you assumed, as you always do, when Pakistan is concerned that you a have monoploy to defend the honor and virtue of Pakistan.

Yasser, let tell you something quite honestly. You claim that you respect my opinions and in all opinions there will a healthy amount of disagreement between us. That is only natural and I accept that fact. In all honesty, I am not interested that people value or respect my opinions as much as I am that they tolerate and are willing to listen to what I have to say. I have bitterly disagreed with Romair, but he has been more than generous in listening to what I had to say unlike you, who were ready to judge and condemn me because I dared to disagree with you. The judgement of a person is not that his/her opinions are valued and respected by his/her peers, but that they tolerate the opinions of those, with whom they disagree.

Debates on issues on Chowk are nothing more than academic non-sense and they will not settle any outstanding issues of our time and they should not be approached in a personal manner, as if your worth as person will be judged if you win or lose an agrument on Chowk. We indulge in these debates for fun and as a trival pursuit and not to win or lose personal or national battles of honor. Since I am being honest and I hope you are not offened, please let me tell you that you have streak of being ``more catholic than the pope`` and you need to tamper that passion and develope a tolerance to hear dissenting views, no matter how idiotic you consider them because even idiots and morons have a point of view!

For your own information, I taught Pakistan Studies for two and half years at Aitchsion College and I was utterly disgusted by what was being taught. I stopped teaching from pre-scribed texts and used my own notes and reference materials to teach the students about history. I discussed the issue with the principle of Aitchison before hand and he gave me the permission to teach and ``make the boys understand`` and I did so ignoring the government provided texts. I was called anti-Pakistan and other assorted names by my own students when I challenged them to defend their historic believes, but I did teach them history and not fairy tales. My job, atleast how I see it, is to make my students understand and if that means I make them question everything, then it is my responsibility to force them to question and to develop skeptism and teach them that as far as education and knowledge are concerned, there are no holy cows in the temples, masjids and gurdwaras of knowledge.

Ciao

re: Romair

Who do you think that I am blaming? Also, when did you become such a populist?

Ciao