A Waste of National Resource

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I find it sad that elderly gentlemen are busy debating an idea which is relative and an imagined concept.

To me the TNT was not wrong but a fact... it was also a tool for a minority to assert it self. By the same logic Pakistan was the conclusion/end of TNT and not its beginning. To continue to define nationhood in Pakistan on the basis of TNT is over kill. TNT could only exist in all India level. TNT exists in India today ... whether we like it or not. As for Pakistan ... logically it should be irrelevant. The Constitutional Act of British parliament which replaced British India with the successor dominions ... sought to replace two communal nations with two geographical ones.

More nations have emerged on the map of the world on the basis of common religious culture than for any other reason... Israel, East Timor, Turkey/Greece with a re run in Cyprus, Bosnia/Serbia, the conflict in Ireland, Shia-Sunni conflict in Iraq are some of the recent examples of this phenomenon. History of Europe shows us how deeply associated the emergence of nation states was to religious differences. It was the escape of the puritans from Europe which laid the foundations of the United states of America, which continues to be a deeply Christian nation though a secular state for all practical purposes.

Secularism (separation of church and state) is not the product of multi cultural societies but homogenous ones where there is a struggle between the clergy and the state .. and state comes out on top. It is possible however that secularism might over time convert an entirely homogenous nation to a multicultural one as seemed to happen with the US. It is not through the repudiation of history but the elevation of the secular state that it has happened.



The point is that we wanted Pakistan, we got it through a legitimate process and transfer of power. Whether we want to make it secular or not is entirely up to us. The debate over the two nation theory can be academic but it certainly not a determining factor, nor does it undermine us. Any leader in Pakistan who takes up this issue is just plain stupid. Let us give up this attitude of always towing the line to prove one self liberal. Who cares if Jay bashes me? It amuses me to no end that a disgusting humanoid like him is trying to spit skywards. Let us not be in awe of anything.

-YLH

``saarc union and single curency`

Khuwaishay eisee kay hur khuwaish pay dum niklay

So much was made of this saarc summit nothing concrete came out of it. All the great leaders and statesmen posed and smiled for cameras but at the end of the day ... nothing... except a few nice sounding acronyms like `SAFTA` which is a pipe dream.

Meanwhile much more low key at the ECO summit in Islambad, the Finance ministers of Turkey, Pakistan and Iran laid the foundations of the Trade and Development Bank with 60 million SDR ... Bhutto`s dream that Koruturk and the Shah shattered in the mid 70s is now being revived...

Minus his `religion/secularism` argument, Romair`s post 37 has hit the nail on the head. He has summarized the Pakistani nationalist position clearly and cogently.

FerozeK, NHK:

The irony is that no one in India is busy discussing the TNT. No one cares. Pakistan is a reality. Why it became one, should it, shouuld it not have...make interesting drawing room conversations.

That is why I find it easiest to accept Manto`s thesis. Nations do not need theories to justify their existence. Maybe in 1948 u did, certainly not now.

Was Pakistan created for religious reasons or for economic reasons? It depends on whom you are asking this question, and in Romair`s case, when you are asking him this question.

Here is another question Pakistanis may want to ponder. Why is there a strong and repeated demand to ban kite flying in Lahore, even though it is obviously such a popular pastime there?

Is this opposition to kite flying basically economic in nature, scientific, health-related, or fundamentally religious?

If you ask Romair, he will give you any answer he thinks will fit his need for the hour. But other Pakistanis have to uncover motivations that may not be entirely wholesome. Otherwise the whole truth will always be elusive.

This being Madressa board.
Reprodued from Omar Qureishi board, where it awaited unanswered.

For F.R.Khan in particular:

Name EVEN ONE student from such schools pre or post-partition who has been an achiever in ANY field. Jobs, titles, and positions, and life-styles are NOT achievements

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#67 by echoboom on January 29, 2004 12:24pm PT
FerozeK:64

Your frustration and depression is understandabe. Still fiercely guarding american-accent?
Ears cocked to whatever is happening in Dixie? Still avoiding masjids and maulanaas.

Worry not. You WILL be re-nativised (assimilated? mainstreamed?) alongwith other english-accent-schools ( I wish I could call them madrassas but that would be elevating their status).

Name ONE student from such schools pre or post-partition who has been an achiever in ANY field. Jobs, titles, and positions, and life-styles are NOT achievements.

Let me elaborate Shaukat Aziz vs Agha Hasan Abadi.(madressa)--(you get the drift?)

now more from maktab and madrassas: abdul salaam, Quadeer Khan, Dr. Ali Rajput, abdul sattar edhi, Faiz, Iqbal, Pitras , Quasmi, Manto etc etc (you keep thinking of many others in ANY field and give me just ONE name) who is from accented-schools who can match them)

How does it feel to be in the gutter now. Yes I am in that gutter of the colonised-culture and that is THE issue here.

#50 by Mantolives
//..To me the TNT was not wrong but a fact... it was also a tool for a minority to assert it self..//

So TNT was not wrong ... and it is a legitimate tool for minority to assert itself. Fair enough! Now - theoritically speaking - if shia minorities in pakistan ask for a separate country for themselves - are you going support it? After all, Shia and Sunnis don`t get along very well - they can as well be Two different Nations. In fact Shia-Sunni relationship is now worse than Hindu-Muslim problem ever was!

Similar principle would apply to Sindhi minorities too. After all - they complain about economic subjugation by Punjabis - don`t they? Just like muslims complained about economic subjugation by hindus - in the undevided India. ( As pointed out by Romair )

Which means - anytime a group feels it cannot compete with another group - it can just use TNT ``tool`` and breakway. Is that the way for the world from now on?

Ralph:

opposition to kite flying is for these reasons:

-illegal use of kite-strings - strings are coated with `chemicals` and others are `metallic`
-illegal strings end up slitting throats of other kite-flyers
-due to the intense kite-flying that goes on, power failures occur all day long(as the ritual of kite-flyiing ends up tampering with powerlines)
-typically a couple of dozen kids get run over by vehicles while they are competeing to chase cut kites floating in the sky. other kids and elders fall off their roofs.

Regradless, I would say that I`ve never seen any other festival (religious or otherwise)anywhere in the world celebrated with as much vigor as Basant is in Lahore.

#50 by Mantolives on January 31, 2004 11:09am PT

YLH back as the apologetic for the Paki power elites. I would like to recruit him as the chief ideologue for my Vadapavland- a land of Vadapav eaters. I am sure the Indian separatists can also ask for his services.

re: condition in POK (or Azaad Kashmir)
Romair has said in the past that Kashmiris in POK are better off than Kashmiris in the Indian Kashmir.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-467586,curpg-2.cms
Here is the full article that rebuffs his notion:

`Islamists have not allowed PoK to prosper`

ANI[ SUNDAY, FEBRUARY 01, 2004 12:40:48 AM ]

She went on to add that recently after the Saarc conference Pakistan has even promised to rein in these organisations, therefore, there is no need to furnish proofs that militants were operating from Pakistan-controlled area. ``Now Indian intelligence agencies should find out their (militant organisations) present address and inform the world that where they have been shifted.

Asiya said that with the opening of Srinagar-Muzaffarabad road, people of PoK will come to know the real status of Jammu and Kashmir.`` She added, ``They will also compare their development with Jammu and Kashmir and thus in due course the propaganda machinery will itself fizzle out.`` She concluded.

Asiya Afroz Ghul, the firebrand woman activist, said that during last 56 years Pakistan has only exploited the natural resources of the region and even has denied to fulfill its basic needs.

``Pakistan is using our resources like rivers and forest and has not even given us the royalty,`` she said. She said that the area has immense potential for tourism but the government has altogether neglected this field.

Condemning the 1947 tribal attack on Jammu and Kashmir by Pakistan army and tribals of North West Frontier Province, she said that the incident actually has paved the way for bifurcation of Jammu and Kashmir. She said that in PoK the kids are being taught Pakistani version of history only, thereby blinding them from facts.

Asiya expressed her utmost desire to visit Srinagar, ``But I would love to come by Srinagar-Muzaffarabad bus,`` she said.``
Sridhar

Stuka # 53

(The irony is that no one in India is busy discussing the TNT. No one cares. Pakistan is a reality. Why it became one, should it, shouuld it not have...make interesting drawing room conversations)

I did not want to get into this discussion - it has been thrashed umpteenth time on Chowk. I only responded to Jay & Ferozek & wrap it up. But the reason why it does not seem to die away is because there ``is actually something amiss``.

India does not need to discuss TNT because it does not believe in it. We are also not discussing it to convince India of ``Pakistan Reality``.

India is secure in its skin - its nationhood, its past, its heritage.

Unfortunately, we are still confused. We need to know our heritage, our link with our past and to define ourselves clearly to ourselves as to who we are - for the simple reason of being at peace in our own skin. Are we Arabs, Central Asians, South Asians or what other concoction?

The closest that we can come to a logical convincing arguement is that Pakistan is a nation composed of Punjabis, Pashtoons, Baluchis & Sindhis sub-nationalities of South Asia.

TNT figures nowhere in this arrangement - and thus this illogical term should not find any place in the definition of the Pakistan as a nation. This causes confusion and is disruptive.

But DEFINE we must - and not let the confusion persist. Except for this rationale of the four sub-nationalities forming the nation called Pakistan, there is no other justifiable cause for its existance.

Now let us have a glass of water - and forget this issue.

Mohar 11

My dear friend ... please keep in mind that TNT didn`t start off by asking for a separate country but those who had reluctantly come into its fold waited 80 years before opting for a separate country which mind you has legal roots in an act of parliament. Pakistan and TNT certainly are not interchangeable.

Any minority let alone Shiites (though as makers of Pakistan they don`t want to... I know cuz I am half shia) wants to separate and does so legally atleast I wouldn`t have a problem. Indeed this is the way of the world as East Timor has shown us ... and they didn`t even fulfil the churchillian test.

However I forgive you for missing out on half the discussion... there is no ethnic nationalist communalist or sectarianist leader of repute who wants to separate... the most ardent opponents of Pakistan including the Mullahs, and the progeny of the frontier gandhi are in favor of the federation... and the most extreme ethnic nationalists want a literal implementation of the Lahore Resolution which is infact the corner stone of the Republic.
We are not against separatists (bunch of tribals along with a bunch of Lahori elite `marxists` holed up in a cave don`t count)... but bring a separatist who can actually translate his/her ideology into actual support of the masses. The truth is that Sindh which Indians imagine to be the hotbed of separatism votes over whelmingly in favor of a federalist and staunchly Pakistani Nationalist Party in every free election. G M Syed for example was a major failure, so is PONAM eventhough PONAM asks for the implementation of the Lahore resolution.


Ballu Khan

I suppose only if a Pakistani totally surrenders to your way of thinking which is not very enlightened mind you despite all the posturing will you consider him worthy.

I am not interested in any Indian separatist... and I think NHK is doing a good job inflating the big Indian head. I just hope it doesn`t burst.

And if anyone is wondering what the churchillian test is :


`` I must record my own belief , that any attempt to establish the reign of Hindu numerical majority in India will never be achieved without a civil war... The muslims numbering 90 million.. the word `minority has no relevance or sense when applied to masses of human beings numbered in many scores of millions`

(Winston Churchill, December 13th 1946 at House of Commons)

Churchill`s was the most notable opposition position because the entire house of commons was dead set against the League and the Pakistan idea at this point. Fearlessly and courageously as always Churchill put forth the dissenting position against the left.

-YLH

`Asiya expressed her utmost desire to visit Srinagar, ``But I would love to come by Srinagar-Muzaffarabad bus,`` she said.`` `

So she hasn`t been to Srinagar... will Rsidhar explain how then does that rebuff any claims that Romair has made? Does she have a point of reference?

Let us be a little more logical.

re: Stuka # 53

Nazar was correct. He said it much better.

We are really a confused nation and since our history has effectively torn out our roots and refuses to accredit our past, we are in a limbo. Our history, if you read the official tales begins in 711 AD when Mohammad Bin Qasim landed and before that, we never existed. In a religious sense that might explain the last 1300 or 1400 years of our existence, but it does not explain our cultural and social evolution, which has pre-dated the arrival of Islam. We do not admit to that past and we create our ``own history`` and if you read Pakistani history text books, you will discover that only Muslims have lived in this region; ruled this region; developed this region and still exist in this region. The history of India, to which we belong does not exist in our intellects and we think that the history of India is subordinated to our history and not the other way around as it should be taught.

Pakistani history textbooks are openly dismissive of this fact and they refuse to teach the history - objective and a neutal history - and if you study them, you will find to your horror that only Muslims history matters in the history of India. We refuse to acknowledge the contribution of the Indian culture or history or politics to the development of Islam in India and thus fail to realize that Islam has fused within the rubric of India and has been influenced by its exposure to Indian cultural,, social values and politics. Our history teaches us of a Muslim historic existence, which is in complete isolation of all other religions, and other influences. Hence, we are confused and have to reconcile our past with our present, which was artifically created and has no basis in the past; the real past of our common existence.

re: arjun_m

I have no idea how it will be solved, but the best option is make the LoC into an international border and exist within the new status quo. In fact, that status quo already exists and all its needs is an official confirmation from India and Pakistan, but mainly from Pakistan, to accept the LoC as a reality. It will happen, because Kashmir is not going willy nilly to Pakistan or India and if the LoC is not an option, then the independence of Kashmir becomes an issue, which both India and Pakistan are not too keen to support. Hence, since beggers cannot be choosers, LoC will be made into an international border and this will end the problem.

re: Yasser # 50

TNT is a moot point. It was never right and Maulana Azad Kalam said so clearly and TNT died when East Pakistan became Bangladesh on December 16, 1971. Pakistan will always exist and there is no danger of it going quietly into the gentle night and the reality of Pakistan as a nation state cannot be denied.

I am not interested in the value of an act of a British parliament or if the power was transfered legally and those agruments, can be debated endlessly. All I am simply saying is that Pakistan has to admit the truth that its reasons for a seperate homeland for the Muslims of India were based on issues, which had nothing to do with religion. We should admit this truth and teach the population of Pakistan this truism, which will end the confusion for once and all. We as a people are not overtly religious and we are not too keen on the ideals of Islam as practiced in a Middle Eastern context. Our understanding of Islam is based on the historgraphy of Islam as it evolved within the Muslim experience in India and not in Saudi Arabia as most of our diehard compatriots wish and hope.

In this sense, TNT is flawed because a lot of Indian Muslims opted not to move to Pakistan and chose to stay in India and that means, in a contempory sense, the issue of TNT was not totally agreed upon by the Muslims themselves in India. If the Muslims had whole heartly supported the concept of a nation-state based on TNT and religion, they would all have migrated en masse to Pakistan!

If the issue of TNT was debated and rejected by Muslims in India before partition in 1947 and then by East Pakistanis, themselves Muslims, when broke away from West Pakistani Muslims and created Bangladesh. If religion could not prevent the ``batwara`` of Pakistan in 1971 and keep Muslims together, then the logic of TNT in a pre-August 1947 India asking for a seperate homeland for the Muslims on the basis of religion makes for a weak argrument.

Therefore, we have to explain the logic of 1947 on issues that are not related to religion, because that is the only method, by which the demand for Pakistan makes sense in a historical, constitutional and economic sense. The real issues and whose denial by the majority forced the Muslims to seek the division of India as the final recourse to a constitutional deadlock.

Ciao