Letter to an American Muslim
Ali A Minai January 26, 2004
#80 Posted by Saminasha on January 28, 2004 9:42:13 am
On the Move
A Conversation with Organizers from South Asian Youth Action (SAYA), Desis Rising Up & Moving (DRUM), and Youth Solidarity Summer (YSS)
By Badal Malick and Shomial Ahmad
This piece originally appeared in Samar 14: Fall/Winter, 2001
The Groups in Their Own Words
Youth Solidarity Summer
yss-info@proxsa.org
http://www.foil.org/yss
``Youth Solidarity Summer conducts a yearly one-week workshop and training session for South Asian youth aged 17-24. It targets youth who self-identify as progressive, particularly those combating social inequalities and oppression among multiple lines: racism, sectarianism, homophobia, sexism, classism, and all the ways they connect, and tries to strengthen the intersectionality of those oppressions, and also just provides support and networking for people.``
Desis Rising Up & Moving
drum@drumnation.org
http://www.drumnation.org
``DRUM was founded in 1998 in New York City as an organization by and for working-class South Asian folks. It was founded, in large part, in response to the classism and exclusion of working-class folks in our leadership in organizing, in youth organizing, in community organizing, in the South Asian movement or the South Asian left in general. Currently we have four main projects; one of the projects is youth organizing, called `youth power.` The others include an `INS detention campaign` and `community justice education.```
South Asian Youth Action
saya@saya.org
http://www.saya.org
``Our main purpose is to promote self-esteem, self-awareness, provide education, and social and political awareness among South Asian youth. Our current programs are `academic leadership,` `Desi Girls on da Rise` (girls only), `sports,` `employment,` and also we have a `leadership council.` We started five years ago -- we had a space and we had young people and it was serve as they come, so it became a very service oriented organization.``
Back when we were brainstorming about the current issue on the South Asian American generation, the idea of a discussion involving SAYA, DRUM and YSS emerged. The two of us attended the youth organizing workshop at the `Desis Organizing 2001` conference held in New York City, where the shape of this interview first took place. After a series of unsuccessful attempts to record a coherent and comprehensive discussion, we finally were able to meet with our participants in a more relaxed pot-luck setting. Among those present were Sonali Matani from SAYA, Monami Maulik, Subhash Kateel, and Ravi Dixit from DRUM, Prachi Patankar and Prerana Reddy from YSS, and Darrel Sukhdeo from Agenda 21. Agenda 21 (email: agenda21@optonline.net), an Indo-Caribbean community organization based in Queens, is in the process of building its own youth program and was therefore not included in this edited version.
We have also chosen to identify speakers by their group names and not their individual names. What follows below is a taste of our discussion, which not only emphasized the varied backgrounds and experiences of growing up South Asian American but identified some of the complex daily challenges faced by them. The participants themselves grew up as South Asians in America and had a strong understanding of the youth populations they work with. We hope you will find these shared experiences as insightful as we did.
What kind of practical strategies do you employ to fulfill your goals and objectives?
DRUM: One of the strategies that DRUM uses is recognizing that there is a need to pay young working-class desi youth and do long-term organizing in the community. Most of the youth that we work with are either high school students from public schools or college students who go to universities and community colleges in New York City. A lot of them go to school and work part-time jobs for families. So it`s really important that we provide living stipends for young people to participate in community organizing. It`s also important that we find long-term funding to sustain permanent staff positions for youth organizers.
YSS: We really work hard on the way the week is structured. We conduct workshops that combine creative work, just sharing different people`s experiences around particular issues, and also informational workshops. We talk about the history of immigration, queer organizing, globalization and World Bank policies.
After the actual week ends we have a listserv that connects people. We also periodically gather information from past participants, which gets written up. This way everyone who has gone though YSS can know who`s working on what issue, and can use people as a resource.
SAYA: Our strategies I feel come a lot from what the young people need. SAYA started with a very vague understanding of what was going on in the community. That had negative and positive points. Some of the positive points are that SAYA addressed the community`s needs. So, again, young people needed jobs, so we have an employment program; young people wanted to do something in the community, so we have an organizing program. Academic tutoring and services are extremely important for the young people because for a lot of people coming here the first institution that they enter is school. Once you get fucked over in school then you drop out, so being able to support them until they get their degree is really important for a lot of reasons, mostly financial.
In your experiences of working with youth, what, if any, are the specific issues that affect desi youth? Is there any relevance in thinking in terms of desi second-generation youth, or even just desi youth for that matter?
DRUM: There is no such thing. I mean you can make up phrases as much as you want. I think we are no different than any other youth of color community. You can say ``the black young people`` or ``Latino young people`` - you can say it, that`s fine, and its nice to say it. People like to use words like that, but I don`t think its very useful in terms of DRUM`s work. It`s more helpful to specifically talk about who your target population is and what their needs are. Even within the South Asian community, for example, in the INS detention center a lot of the people are Sri Lankan Tamils, which has to be recognized, because they need people who speak Tamil. They need resources that can help them in their situation, which is very different from a Punjabi, or from a Pakistani or Bangladeshi.
SAYA: Ok, I`ve always been a little confused about this whole question. I think it`s a great question. I think placing everyone in the diaspora under ``desi`` can be helpful at times for certain reasons. I think there is something to learn from everyone who is desi, who has a background of being desi (there is a common history there), but I think it`s harmful for a few reasons. Desis can have a certain stereotype and that then applies to everyone -- that stereotyping itself is wrong. People who are desi, who think that`s what they should be now, have that identity available to them. SAYA is a very South Asian space with very few non-South Asians. A lot of times I see people coming in there thinking that being at SAYA gives them permission to talk badly about other groups, whether they be black, Latino, white, or Asian. I think that can be harmful. There has to be a certain politicization involved to get to a larger understanding, which isn`t present for all the young people who enter the space.
DRUM: I think when you`re dealing with stuff like class, when you`re dealing with where desis are supposed to live, whether it`s in the city or in the suburbs, that`s when you really test the term desi and how encompassing it is. How much of a unifying concept is ``desi youth,`` if at all? You know I think Sonali [SAYA] had an interesting point in terms of if you`re a desi person walking down a street wearing a shalwar kameez, a churidar, a lungi or whatever, you get a certain reaction, regardless of whether you`re rich or poor. But at the same time when you start talking about police brutality, for example, or when you talk about being scared because you don`t have papers, you know what I mean, that`s when you really start dissecting the reality of the desi youth experience.
YSS: At the annual India Day Parade YSS protested against the fia`s refusal to allow salga [the South Asian Lesbian and Gay Association] to march in the parade. I think it`s important to come together as desis to fight against our own reactionaries and elites. This is especially true since it`s hard to for other races to critique these issues because it becomes: ``who are you to question us?``
In terms of when I was in college after I came from India, it was important to me to find a community that was desi and there wasn`t much at my school, so I went to the Asian organization. I found a community but it wasn`t the same. I found a way to organize, but I needed a space where I could talk about certain issues that only certain desi people could relate to. So in that way desi organizing is important.
How do you think South Asian youth that grow up in this country are affected by religion, ethnicity and nationalism? How do you deal with some of those issues?
YSS: When YSS started, it came out of responding to the [Hindu] religious-right wing that had summer camps all over the country. They`re more conservative, more culture-of-pride in different sorts of ways. I think the original organizers felt that there was a need to respond to that and that there wasn`t much being organized to provide an alternative to understanding culture or understanding the politics in South Asia. Certain kinds of youth were being bombarded by a certain kind of social conservatism, one which is about preserving tradition, fear in immigrant families when they come to the U.S., and how these get compounded in certain ways through gender roles and conservative ways of understanding what people should do and how they should set their life.
DRUM: I see an intense Indianism, an intense North Indo-centricism in the community, and I`m talking about the decision-making. I think that North Indianism and that sort of particular nationalism works out for a couple of reasons. A lot of it has to do with a particular racism that`s brought over here; there`s also a classism. There`s a lot of marginalization that Indo-Guyanese and Indo-Trinidadian people face in New York city (that I`ve seen growing up) and now I see this, much more, for Bangladeshis from the larger so-called ``South Asian community,`` which is much more Indo-centric. That has to do with the fact that these groups are seen as working class, are seen as the `other` that mainstream South Asians don`t want to identify as, and are darker-skinned. It has to do with that colorism too. That stuff is something that is particularly relevant for the Bangladeshi community now. It`s so real. It`s something nobody talks about within the South Asian progressive community. How many Bangladeshi folks from New York do we know that are involved in this [activist] work? The fact is that the majority of the South Asian population here is Bangladeshi, after that it`s Pakistani, and a lot of kids talk about this. It`s a huge thing. Bangladeshi women talk about a fear of being identified as desi, as South Asian, period. It`s less shameful to be Dominican or something else. But if you are identified as South Asian you can`t say you are Bangladeshi. You`re Indian.
The assumption that homeland shit doesn`t apply here in our circles, the assumption that beef from the homeland is not conceived here because when we come here we`re all desis and we`re all brown or what -- bullshit, bullshit. You know what I mean -- bullshit. Bullshit. I mean even if you look at the gangs, or even if you look at the cliques that form or what not, I think you definitely see stuff that is so reflective of what goes on in the homeland.
But, isn`t this ``beef`` from the homeland re-constructed and therefore specific to the North American setting, or is it simply transplanted here wholesale?
DRUM: It is constructed. It doesn`t make sense for young people who grew up here to know what the beef was back home and recreate it, but it`s recreated. Unfortunately what ends up happening with a lot of immigrant communities is a blending of the worst from back home and the worst from here, to create this ultra-conservatism, you know. That`s a product of the American society that we live under. That`s what it forces us to be, those are the people it empowers in the immigrant communities to push us in a certain direction. They don`t want us to identify as working-class people of color because then we`ll be threatening.
YSS: I`ll just give you a story from my first India day parade in New York with YSS. Just to see that the BJP contingent was so huge and that most of them were these young couples to me was shocking. Many were young and were out-of-control, calling us names, and it was the old people coming in and being like `lay-off, it`s not worth it.` You really feel the aggression coming from people my age. At YSS we had a big discussion this year about whether or not to do a whole workshop on religion -- because it`s an experience that is so different for youth. Some people were raised going to temple or to mosque; for other people, all it means is they go to functions. It`s a social thing more than a spiritual thing, so how do you deal with that? And how do you deal with that in left spaces where you can`t be practicing anything and be left (as though it`s so horrible)? What often happens in a discussion of religion is similar to a discussion of casteism, which doesn`t include all South Asians feeling the same way or being able to relate the same way. One thing that`s been really hard for us, being a South Asian group and having Muslims and Sri Lankans in the same space, is to try and address religion and not specifically just talk about Hinduism or the BJP or what Indian people feel comfortable talking about even on the left.
SAYA: At SAYA what I`ve done in the groups is break things down because when we all get in a room together, there`s a lot going on. People joke around but it`s there. They know the stereotypes. They know there`s anti-Muslim sentiment; there`s anti-Hindu sentiment; there`s anti-Christian sentiment. We take it back four hundred years and start from there; We break it down and follow where people have gone, what happened, and the wars that were fought and the battles that were won. We took a whole week to talk about how and why people are here and that includes globalization and what`s happening in other places and the economics of the world. And then we talk about the commonalities of growing up here and what`s going on here in this country, and at that point the tension loosens. It takes work, it takes two months of work to do that in the curriculum. It has to be done or else it`s not going to go anywhere and people are still going to joke pretending that it doesn`t mean anything. It`s a challenge but I think it`s not as difficult as other challenges because of the commonality of being a young person in Queens.
Many of you have repeatedly alluded to class as a major concern in how it intersects with other identities. Would you consider class to be the overriding factor in terms of challenges facing youth?
DRUM: The youth recognize their economic circumstances. They talk about how they live it, how they struggle with it. At the same time they`re dealing with this real internal shame and guilt. Growing up I didn`t say I`m a poor working class this or that. No. Nobody wants to be identified as poor or working class. The kids we work with wouldn`t want to be called poor or working class. That`s a bad thing. That`s not a thing of affirmation and power. Here the stigma is huge, maybe even more so than with other people of color. That`s why for a lot of working-class South Asian folks like myself it was much more affirming to identify as a person of color, or with black or Latino communities where there were other poor single mothers raising their kids and it wasn`t shameful or something to be hidden. For a lot of these reasons, for cultural connection and material connection, you know class is a better basis of lived reality and experience. It cuts across so many different things.
YSS: Another thing that needs to be addressed is the huge suburbanization of immigrants. People start out in Queens or start out in the city [Manhattan] and as soon as they make enough money they go out to the suburbs -- their needs are generally not addressed anymore because they`re so scattered. A lot of that is also true for professional South Asian people who have been spread out everywhere. Their kids are just scattered and no one is addressing their needs. They`re growing up mainly in white institutions without much direction. That`s another issue about the process of what this country does to people. Once you make enough money, you move away from people who don`t, and then they don`t exist.
DRUM: We`re always hit with the argument that class is fluid, especially with desi folk. And to some extent yes, that`s true, that`s a reality. Desi folks are making out of neighborhoods that I grew up in at a much faster rate than Black and Latino folks. That`s a reality for different reasons, but the fact is that classism is a problem. You know the stigma. It trickles down for poor and working class people, who still wouldn`t identify as poor and working class, who are in complete denial, shame, and pushed out. So that`s really the problem. It`s the problem of building and creating an identity. And even if folks can get out and buy a house or whatever, if your identity comes from an understanding that economic struggle is powerful and positive, I think it is very different. You are very politicized people in a certain way.
SAYA: That`s what the world is about. For example, someone found a job at an organization in New York. It`s great for them because he`s getting paid $9-$10 an hour at the age of sixteen, but I know that he`s not going to be able to use his potential. We talked: `I`m going to an interview, can you please prepare me?` `Okay let`s sit down and talk. What is this? Where are you going?` And `okay the world is going to be like this but this isn`t the way it should be.` We have young people growing up now with such a knowledge about what`s happening, to a point where they can dissect any situation, but then they have to go out there and face this messed-up thing, where every office that they walk into, a woman-of-color is a receptionist. So that`s just a tough issue to work with.
In terms of intra-generational conflict, how do you deal with issues of sexuality and queerness among youth?
YSS: I think in YSS we definitely prioritize making the space as safe as possible for queer people. I think that we`re lucky to be able to do that, since it`s a space that we define and it`s not in a community. It`s easier to kind of set these ground rules and have this kind of discussion. Also there are a lot of queer people in our organizing collective, and I think that it`s good in the sense that it`s changed the way in which we`ve dealt with sexuality and the idea of queerness. There`s not a huge space for South Asian queer people, especially if you`re not in a huge city. There are a lot of people without any support network and one thing that YSS at least tries to do is connect them with South Asian queer movements.
I do think that the initial thing we can do is to have people talk about sexuality to begin with, which doesn`t happen very often in their families. You can`t be comfortable with queerness if you`re not comfortable with your own sexuality, whatever that may be. I think that`s what we`re trying to do. We want to talk about sexuality in a positive way, because sexuality is always talked about in such a toxic fashion. Even in activist spaces, I think, there`s so much attention towards gender disparity, domestic violence, violence against women, and incest that people just get so scared about sexuality and see it in such a negative context. It`s such a difficult thing to address. If you start talking about incest, it`s hard to talk about the positive side of sexuality in a workshop.
DRUM: So much of that too is that when you get back to the word ``desi,`` or ``South Asian,`` and culture...so much of that is this idea that ``South Asian`` or ``desi`` means a specific thing: it means privilege, it means heterosexual, and it means not talking about your heterosexuality, and on top of it not talking about sexuality period. And so every thing else - queer - is undesi; having sex a lot for a woman is undesi. The queer movement came out of this very white movement. On top of that, within desi culture, there`s this whole idea of what desi is and everything else outside of that is not South Asian. I mean, not only desi South Asian - what Indian Hindu and Pakistani Muslim is - and being queer South Asian falls completely out of it to a point where queer becomes whiter.
A lot of working class folks who are experiencing racism are men. There`s a specific amount of defending yourself, fighting it, that`s based on this really messed up concept of masculinity, you know this toughness. Its kind of a resistance against racism,I think, but homophobia comes out of that in a lot of ways. There`s this hypermasculinity because folks are calling you a ``Hindoo,`` folks are kicking your ass so you gotta be tough, you gotta be this, you gotta defend what`s yours but on top of that if you`re gay you know...
SAYA: White and queer are synonymous with the young people that we`re working with. And yeah, one thing that we`ve brought up in discussion is what happens to the young men in the community who have this pressure to be men, and to do something, and to get a job, and to support a family and their sisters and whatever it might be. Being male is tough, those pressures of being men are tough and they don`t want to be queer on top of that...goddamn it! Yeah but that`s something that we`ve not talked about in this interview -- what happens to young men in our community. And it`s awful. Cause their head`s held down and they`re not looking up, having been beat up and then picked up by the cops after being here for four months. It`s something that needs some attention. We talk about it at SAYA a lot. We`ve got women`s leadership in every program but what`s happening to our men, you know.
What would you describe as your main challenges in organizing?
DRUM: At a larger level, in the past few years, ``youth organizing`` has become a buzz-word, created by funders, and all those other people who determine what`s important for the time. So nationally we see a lot of organizing happening, and kids talked about more. In some ways it doesn`t make sense to disconnect it from other oppressions and other issues: youth are workers, you know, youth are women, youth are queer, they are all these other things. Some of the challenges are to connect this thing called ``youth organizing`` to that entire process. Like organizing youth workers, how many people think of doing that? When you are talking about youth, you`re supposed to talk about education or this or that. I think getting out of that box of what youth is, is needed.
SAYA: Funding is a huge problem. Twenty youth organizing efforts are getting a small portion of the foundation funding in New York City, which is difficult to sustain. It would really help if the wider desi community were part of that funding.
YSS: One of the big challenges we have been dealing with is getting more working-class youth in YSS. We have outreached to college-youth or working-class local youth, but still it hasn`t been working. It`s really hard. It takes such sustained effort to do youth organizing and I think Monami [DRUM] said it best: ``it`s really hard to create those long-term structures.`` What you do after they come out of your program?`
We are thinking about doing alumni reunions, where people come back. Life on the left is something that we spend a whole day on during the week, that we want to continue doing. It`s to keep that energy going, because it`s the long haul. We`re having to provide services to everybody, within our own community, and that takes up a lot of resources that could be going into advocacy. I think that`s always a huge issue for people working in the community at all levels. It`s hard not to provide services because there`s such little resources available for that in the first place, and there`s so much need. It`s the kind of need that has to be addressed.
SAYA: Three day-to-day challenges facing youth, whether talked about openly or not, are education, housing, and health care. And then you want to get into inter-community issues, or issues in the family (I can`t separate one from the other, they`re very inter-connected): gender being one, of course money, lack of resources for people going through issues with their family and who want to get out immediately. I will say what`s going on the most with the young people and what they say is the most prevalent in their lives is domestic violence and alcoholism. Age is a huge issue in South Asian communities, and not being trusted inside the home and in the larger community.
DRUM: Going to college, forget about a private college, even going to CUNY these days is not a possibility for a lot of young people. It`s not going to be the girl in the family. Most of the times it`s the girls that are doing the best in school; they`re the ones getting eighties and nineties. There are a lot of women who are not encouraged to go to school. I think a problem is the feeling of powerlessness, especially initially, in terms of carving out spaces that you can call your own. I think that a lot of youth find really innovative and really ingenious ways to overcome that powerlessness. I see young desi youth using different methods of carving power out and getting power over their own lives, taking control over their own lives.
Shomial Ahmad and Badal Malick are members of the SAMAR collective.
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Issue 15
Dogmas of War
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SAMAR responds to the issue of war in our current forum. Through poetry and analyses, we concentrate on the responses of common citizens and activists to various wars all over the world. Be it the U.S., Sri Lanka or Palestine, the forces of militarism continue to operate with impunity, and we need newer words with which to describe their force, as well as the inchoate and incipient modes of activism that characterize the victims of this new force. Our contributors to the forum try to frame a new politics and aesthetics of intervening in the nervous condition of the immigrant, where ``it has been decreed that none will walk with their heads held high.``
A Conversation with Organizers from South Asian Youth Action (SAYA), Desis Rising Up & Moving (DRUM), and Youth Solidarity Summer (YSS)
By Badal Malick and Shomial Ahmad
This piece originally appeared in Samar 14: Fall/Winter, 2001
The Groups in Their Own Words
Youth Solidarity Summer
yss-info@proxsa.org
http://www.foil.org/yss
``Youth Solidarity Summer conducts a yearly one-week workshop and training session for South Asian youth aged 17-24. It targets youth who self-identify as progressive, particularly those combating social inequalities and oppression among multiple lines: racism, sectarianism, homophobia, sexism, classism, and all the ways they connect, and tries to strengthen the intersectionality of those oppressions, and also just provides support and networking for people.``
Desis Rising Up & Moving
drum@drumnation.org
http://www.drumnation.org
``DRUM was founded in 1998 in New York City as an organization by and for working-class South Asian folks. It was founded, in large part, in response to the classism and exclusion of working-class folks in our leadership in organizing, in youth organizing, in community organizing, in the South Asian movement or the South Asian left in general. Currently we have four main projects; one of the projects is youth organizing, called `youth power.` The others include an `INS detention campaign` and `community justice education.```
South Asian Youth Action
saya@saya.org
http://www.saya.org
``Our main purpose is to promote self-esteem, self-awareness, provide education, and social and political awareness among South Asian youth. Our current programs are `academic leadership,` `Desi Girls on da Rise` (girls only), `sports,` `employment,` and also we have a `leadership council.` We started five years ago -- we had a space and we had young people and it was serve as they come, so it became a very service oriented organization.``
Back when we were brainstorming about the current issue on the South Asian American generation, the idea of a discussion involving SAYA, DRUM and YSS emerged. The two of us attended the youth organizing workshop at the `Desis Organizing 2001` conference held in New York City, where the shape of this interview first took place. After a series of unsuccessful attempts to record a coherent and comprehensive discussion, we finally were able to meet with our participants in a more relaxed pot-luck setting. Among those present were Sonali Matani from SAYA, Monami Maulik, Subhash Kateel, and Ravi Dixit from DRUM, Prachi Patankar and Prerana Reddy from YSS, and Darrel Sukhdeo from Agenda 21. Agenda 21 (email: agenda21@optonline.net), an Indo-Caribbean community organization based in Queens, is in the process of building its own youth program and was therefore not included in this edited version.
We have also chosen to identify speakers by their group names and not their individual names. What follows below is a taste of our discussion, which not only emphasized the varied backgrounds and experiences of growing up South Asian American but identified some of the complex daily challenges faced by them. The participants themselves grew up as South Asians in America and had a strong understanding of the youth populations they work with. We hope you will find these shared experiences as insightful as we did.
What kind of practical strategies do you employ to fulfill your goals and objectives?
DRUM: One of the strategies that DRUM uses is recognizing that there is a need to pay young working-class desi youth and do long-term organizing in the community. Most of the youth that we work with are either high school students from public schools or college students who go to universities and community colleges in New York City. A lot of them go to school and work part-time jobs for families. So it`s really important that we provide living stipends for young people to participate in community organizing. It`s also important that we find long-term funding to sustain permanent staff positions for youth organizers.
YSS: We really work hard on the way the week is structured. We conduct workshops that combine creative work, just sharing different people`s experiences around particular issues, and also informational workshops. We talk about the history of immigration, queer organizing, globalization and World Bank policies.
After the actual week ends we have a listserv that connects people. We also periodically gather information from past participants, which gets written up. This way everyone who has gone though YSS can know who`s working on what issue, and can use people as a resource.
SAYA: Our strategies I feel come a lot from what the young people need. SAYA started with a very vague understanding of what was going on in the community. That had negative and positive points. Some of the positive points are that SAYA addressed the community`s needs. So, again, young people needed jobs, so we have an employment program; young people wanted to do something in the community, so we have an organizing program. Academic tutoring and services are extremely important for the young people because for a lot of people coming here the first institution that they enter is school. Once you get fucked over in school then you drop out, so being able to support them until they get their degree is really important for a lot of reasons, mostly financial.
In your experiences of working with youth, what, if any, are the specific issues that affect desi youth? Is there any relevance in thinking in terms of desi second-generation youth, or even just desi youth for that matter?
DRUM: There is no such thing. I mean you can make up phrases as much as you want. I think we are no different than any other youth of color community. You can say ``the black young people`` or ``Latino young people`` - you can say it, that`s fine, and its nice to say it. People like to use words like that, but I don`t think its very useful in terms of DRUM`s work. It`s more helpful to specifically talk about who your target population is and what their needs are. Even within the South Asian community, for example, in the INS detention center a lot of the people are Sri Lankan Tamils, which has to be recognized, because they need people who speak Tamil. They need resources that can help them in their situation, which is very different from a Punjabi, or from a Pakistani or Bangladeshi.
SAYA: Ok, I`ve always been a little confused about this whole question. I think it`s a great question. I think placing everyone in the diaspora under ``desi`` can be helpful at times for certain reasons. I think there is something to learn from everyone who is desi, who has a background of being desi (there is a common history there), but I think it`s harmful for a few reasons. Desis can have a certain stereotype and that then applies to everyone -- that stereotyping itself is wrong. People who are desi, who think that`s what they should be now, have that identity available to them. SAYA is a very South Asian space with very few non-South Asians. A lot of times I see people coming in there thinking that being at SAYA gives them permission to talk badly about other groups, whether they be black, Latino, white, or Asian. I think that can be harmful. There has to be a certain politicization involved to get to a larger understanding, which isn`t present for all the young people who enter the space.
DRUM: I think when you`re dealing with stuff like class, when you`re dealing with where desis are supposed to live, whether it`s in the city or in the suburbs, that`s when you really test the term desi and how encompassing it is. How much of a unifying concept is ``desi youth,`` if at all? You know I think Sonali [SAYA] had an interesting point in terms of if you`re a desi person walking down a street wearing a shalwar kameez, a churidar, a lungi or whatever, you get a certain reaction, regardless of whether you`re rich or poor. But at the same time when you start talking about police brutality, for example, or when you talk about being scared because you don`t have papers, you know what I mean, that`s when you really start dissecting the reality of the desi youth experience.
YSS: At the annual India Day Parade YSS protested against the fia`s refusal to allow salga [the South Asian Lesbian and Gay Association] to march in the parade. I think it`s important to come together as desis to fight against our own reactionaries and elites. This is especially true since it`s hard to for other races to critique these issues because it becomes: ``who are you to question us?``
In terms of when I was in college after I came from India, it was important to me to find a community that was desi and there wasn`t much at my school, so I went to the Asian organization. I found a community but it wasn`t the same. I found a way to organize, but I needed a space where I could talk about certain issues that only certain desi people could relate to. So in that way desi organizing is important.
How do you think South Asian youth that grow up in this country are affected by religion, ethnicity and nationalism? How do you deal with some of those issues?
YSS: When YSS started, it came out of responding to the [Hindu] religious-right wing that had summer camps all over the country. They`re more conservative, more culture-of-pride in different sorts of ways. I think the original organizers felt that there was a need to respond to that and that there wasn`t much being organized to provide an alternative to understanding culture or understanding the politics in South Asia. Certain kinds of youth were being bombarded by a certain kind of social conservatism, one which is about preserving tradition, fear in immigrant families when they come to the U.S., and how these get compounded in certain ways through gender roles and conservative ways of understanding what people should do and how they should set their life.
DRUM: I see an intense Indianism, an intense North Indo-centricism in the community, and I`m talking about the decision-making. I think that North Indianism and that sort of particular nationalism works out for a couple of reasons. A lot of it has to do with a particular racism that`s brought over here; there`s also a classism. There`s a lot of marginalization that Indo-Guyanese and Indo-Trinidadian people face in New York city (that I`ve seen growing up) and now I see this, much more, for Bangladeshis from the larger so-called ``South Asian community,`` which is much more Indo-centric. That has to do with the fact that these groups are seen as working class, are seen as the `other` that mainstream South Asians don`t want to identify as, and are darker-skinned. It has to do with that colorism too. That stuff is something that is particularly relevant for the Bangladeshi community now. It`s so real. It`s something nobody talks about within the South Asian progressive community. How many Bangladeshi folks from New York do we know that are involved in this [activist] work? The fact is that the majority of the South Asian population here is Bangladeshi, after that it`s Pakistani, and a lot of kids talk about this. It`s a huge thing. Bangladeshi women talk about a fear of being identified as desi, as South Asian, period. It`s less shameful to be Dominican or something else. But if you are identified as South Asian you can`t say you are Bangladeshi. You`re Indian.
The assumption that homeland shit doesn`t apply here in our circles, the assumption that beef from the homeland is not conceived here because when we come here we`re all desis and we`re all brown or what -- bullshit, bullshit. You know what I mean -- bullshit. Bullshit. I mean even if you look at the gangs, or even if you look at the cliques that form or what not, I think you definitely see stuff that is so reflective of what goes on in the homeland.
But, isn`t this ``beef`` from the homeland re-constructed and therefore specific to the North American setting, or is it simply transplanted here wholesale?
DRUM: It is constructed. It doesn`t make sense for young people who grew up here to know what the beef was back home and recreate it, but it`s recreated. Unfortunately what ends up happening with a lot of immigrant communities is a blending of the worst from back home and the worst from here, to create this ultra-conservatism, you know. That`s a product of the American society that we live under. That`s what it forces us to be, those are the people it empowers in the immigrant communities to push us in a certain direction. They don`t want us to identify as working-class people of color because then we`ll be threatening.
YSS: I`ll just give you a story from my first India day parade in New York with YSS. Just to see that the BJP contingent was so huge and that most of them were these young couples to me was shocking. Many were young and were out-of-control, calling us names, and it was the old people coming in and being like `lay-off, it`s not worth it.` You really feel the aggression coming from people my age. At YSS we had a big discussion this year about whether or not to do a whole workshop on religion -- because it`s an experience that is so different for youth. Some people were raised going to temple or to mosque; for other people, all it means is they go to functions. It`s a social thing more than a spiritual thing, so how do you deal with that? And how do you deal with that in left spaces where you can`t be practicing anything and be left (as though it`s so horrible)? What often happens in a discussion of religion is similar to a discussion of casteism, which doesn`t include all South Asians feeling the same way or being able to relate the same way. One thing that`s been really hard for us, being a South Asian group and having Muslims and Sri Lankans in the same space, is to try and address religion and not specifically just talk about Hinduism or the BJP or what Indian people feel comfortable talking about even on the left.
SAYA: At SAYA what I`ve done in the groups is break things down because when we all get in a room together, there`s a lot going on. People joke around but it`s there. They know the stereotypes. They know there`s anti-Muslim sentiment; there`s anti-Hindu sentiment; there`s anti-Christian sentiment. We take it back four hundred years and start from there; We break it down and follow where people have gone, what happened, and the wars that were fought and the battles that were won. We took a whole week to talk about how and why people are here and that includes globalization and what`s happening in other places and the economics of the world. And then we talk about the commonalities of growing up here and what`s going on here in this country, and at that point the tension loosens. It takes work, it takes two months of work to do that in the curriculum. It has to be done or else it`s not going to go anywhere and people are still going to joke pretending that it doesn`t mean anything. It`s a challenge but I think it`s not as difficult as other challenges because of the commonality of being a young person in Queens.
Many of you have repeatedly alluded to class as a major concern in how it intersects with other identities. Would you consider class to be the overriding factor in terms of challenges facing youth?
DRUM: The youth recognize their economic circumstances. They talk about how they live it, how they struggle with it. At the same time they`re dealing with this real internal shame and guilt. Growing up I didn`t say I`m a poor working class this or that. No. Nobody wants to be identified as poor or working class. The kids we work with wouldn`t want to be called poor or working class. That`s a bad thing. That`s not a thing of affirmation and power. Here the stigma is huge, maybe even more so than with other people of color. That`s why for a lot of working-class South Asian folks like myself it was much more affirming to identify as a person of color, or with black or Latino communities where there were other poor single mothers raising their kids and it wasn`t shameful or something to be hidden. For a lot of these reasons, for cultural connection and material connection, you know class is a better basis of lived reality and experience. It cuts across so many different things.
YSS: Another thing that needs to be addressed is the huge suburbanization of immigrants. People start out in Queens or start out in the city [Manhattan] and as soon as they make enough money they go out to the suburbs -- their needs are generally not addressed anymore because they`re so scattered. A lot of that is also true for professional South Asian people who have been spread out everywhere. Their kids are just scattered and no one is addressing their needs. They`re growing up mainly in white institutions without much direction. That`s another issue about the process of what this country does to people. Once you make enough money, you move away from people who don`t, and then they don`t exist.
DRUM: We`re always hit with the argument that class is fluid, especially with desi folk. And to some extent yes, that`s true, that`s a reality. Desi folks are making out of neighborhoods that I grew up in at a much faster rate than Black and Latino folks. That`s a reality for different reasons, but the fact is that classism is a problem. You know the stigma. It trickles down for poor and working class people, who still wouldn`t identify as poor and working class, who are in complete denial, shame, and pushed out. So that`s really the problem. It`s the problem of building and creating an identity. And even if folks can get out and buy a house or whatever, if your identity comes from an understanding that economic struggle is powerful and positive, I think it is very different. You are very politicized people in a certain way.
SAYA: That`s what the world is about. For example, someone found a job at an organization in New York. It`s great for them because he`s getting paid $9-$10 an hour at the age of sixteen, but I know that he`s not going to be able to use his potential. We talked: `I`m going to an interview, can you please prepare me?` `Okay let`s sit down and talk. What is this? Where are you going?` And `okay the world is going to be like this but this isn`t the way it should be.` We have young people growing up now with such a knowledge about what`s happening, to a point where they can dissect any situation, but then they have to go out there and face this messed-up thing, where every office that they walk into, a woman-of-color is a receptionist. So that`s just a tough issue to work with.
In terms of intra-generational conflict, how do you deal with issues of sexuality and queerness among youth?
YSS: I think in YSS we definitely prioritize making the space as safe as possible for queer people. I think that we`re lucky to be able to do that, since it`s a space that we define and it`s not in a community. It`s easier to kind of set these ground rules and have this kind of discussion. Also there are a lot of queer people in our organizing collective, and I think that it`s good in the sense that it`s changed the way in which we`ve dealt with sexuality and the idea of queerness. There`s not a huge space for South Asian queer people, especially if you`re not in a huge city. There are a lot of people without any support network and one thing that YSS at least tries to do is connect them with South Asian queer movements.
I do think that the initial thing we can do is to have people talk about sexuality to begin with, which doesn`t happen very often in their families. You can`t be comfortable with queerness if you`re not comfortable with your own sexuality, whatever that may be. I think that`s what we`re trying to do. We want to talk about sexuality in a positive way, because sexuality is always talked about in such a toxic fashion. Even in activist spaces, I think, there`s so much attention towards gender disparity, domestic violence, violence against women, and incest that people just get so scared about sexuality and see it in such a negative context. It`s such a difficult thing to address. If you start talking about incest, it`s hard to talk about the positive side of sexuality in a workshop.
DRUM: So much of that too is that when you get back to the word ``desi,`` or ``South Asian,`` and culture...so much of that is this idea that ``South Asian`` or ``desi`` means a specific thing: it means privilege, it means heterosexual, and it means not talking about your heterosexuality, and on top of it not talking about sexuality period. And so every thing else - queer - is undesi; having sex a lot for a woman is undesi. The queer movement came out of this very white movement. On top of that, within desi culture, there`s this whole idea of what desi is and everything else outside of that is not South Asian. I mean, not only desi South Asian - what Indian Hindu and Pakistani Muslim is - and being queer South Asian falls completely out of it to a point where queer becomes whiter.
A lot of working class folks who are experiencing racism are men. There`s a specific amount of defending yourself, fighting it, that`s based on this really messed up concept of masculinity, you know this toughness. Its kind of a resistance against racism,I think, but homophobia comes out of that in a lot of ways. There`s this hypermasculinity because folks are calling you a ``Hindoo,`` folks are kicking your ass so you gotta be tough, you gotta be this, you gotta defend what`s yours but on top of that if you`re gay you know...
SAYA: White and queer are synonymous with the young people that we`re working with. And yeah, one thing that we`ve brought up in discussion is what happens to the young men in the community who have this pressure to be men, and to do something, and to get a job, and to support a family and their sisters and whatever it might be. Being male is tough, those pressures of being men are tough and they don`t want to be queer on top of that...goddamn it! Yeah but that`s something that we`ve not talked about in this interview -- what happens to young men in our community. And it`s awful. Cause their head`s held down and they`re not looking up, having been beat up and then picked up by the cops after being here for four months. It`s something that needs some attention. We talk about it at SAYA a lot. We`ve got women`s leadership in every program but what`s happening to our men, you know.
What would you describe as your main challenges in organizing?
DRUM: At a larger level, in the past few years, ``youth organizing`` has become a buzz-word, created by funders, and all those other people who determine what`s important for the time. So nationally we see a lot of organizing happening, and kids talked about more. In some ways it doesn`t make sense to disconnect it from other oppressions and other issues: youth are workers, you know, youth are women, youth are queer, they are all these other things. Some of the challenges are to connect this thing called ``youth organizing`` to that entire process. Like organizing youth workers, how many people think of doing that? When you are talking about youth, you`re supposed to talk about education or this or that. I think getting out of that box of what youth is, is needed.
SAYA: Funding is a huge problem. Twenty youth organizing efforts are getting a small portion of the foundation funding in New York City, which is difficult to sustain. It would really help if the wider desi community were part of that funding.
YSS: One of the big challenges we have been dealing with is getting more working-class youth in YSS. We have outreached to college-youth or working-class local youth, but still it hasn`t been working. It`s really hard. It takes such sustained effort to do youth organizing and I think Monami [DRUM] said it best: ``it`s really hard to create those long-term structures.`` What you do after they come out of your program?`
We are thinking about doing alumni reunions, where people come back. Life on the left is something that we spend a whole day on during the week, that we want to continue doing. It`s to keep that energy going, because it`s the long haul. We`re having to provide services to everybody, within our own community, and that takes up a lot of resources that could be going into advocacy. I think that`s always a huge issue for people working in the community at all levels. It`s hard not to provide services because there`s such little resources available for that in the first place, and there`s so much need. It`s the kind of need that has to be addressed.
SAYA: Three day-to-day challenges facing youth, whether talked about openly or not, are education, housing, and health care. And then you want to get into inter-community issues, or issues in the family (I can`t separate one from the other, they`re very inter-connected): gender being one, of course money, lack of resources for people going through issues with their family and who want to get out immediately. I will say what`s going on the most with the young people and what they say is the most prevalent in their lives is domestic violence and alcoholism. Age is a huge issue in South Asian communities, and not being trusted inside the home and in the larger community.
DRUM: Going to college, forget about a private college, even going to CUNY these days is not a possibility for a lot of young people. It`s not going to be the girl in the family. Most of the times it`s the girls that are doing the best in school; they`re the ones getting eighties and nineties. There are a lot of women who are not encouraged to go to school. I think a problem is the feeling of powerlessness, especially initially, in terms of carving out spaces that you can call your own. I think that a lot of youth find really innovative and really ingenious ways to overcome that powerlessness. I see young desi youth using different methods of carving power out and getting power over their own lives, taking control over their own lives.
Shomial Ahmad and Badal Malick are members of the SAMAR collective.
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Issue 15
Dogmas of War
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SAMAR responds to the issue of war in our current forum. Through poetry and analyses, we concentrate on the responses of common citizens and activists to various wars all over the world. Be it the U.S., Sri Lanka or Palestine, the forces of militarism continue to operate with impunity, and we need newer words with which to describe their force, as well as the inchoate and incipient modes of activism that characterize the victims of this new force. Our contributors to the forum try to frame a new politics and aesthetics of intervening in the nervous condition of the immigrant, where ``it has been decreed that none will walk with their heads held high.``
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#79 Posted by Saminasha on January 28, 2004 9:27:44 am
Echoboom Sahib,
One thing at a time....
So, you ADMIT that the people who are defending the rights of Muslims in the West are progressives?
One thing at a time....
So, you ADMIT that the people who are defending the rights of Muslims in the West are progressives?
#78 Posted by HisExcellency on January 28, 2004 9:15:02 am
#71 by Romair
I agree with most of your comments.
Although younger American Jews depict much more maturity and fairness when dealing with the Israeli-Palestinian issue, I am amazed at the crude political incorrectness displayed by most Jewish opinionmakers towards Arabs and Muslims in this country. These 40-, 50- year olds are still living in the era when Israel was a weak state threatened by all of its Arab neighbours.
Times have changed now. This is not 1948. Jordan and Egypt have already recognized Israel. Syria is militarily weaker than Israel and is interested only in the return of Golan Heights. The Hezbollah in Lebanon is the only mortal enemy of Israel today but this enemy lacks the muscle to launch offensive operations. Moreover, Israel`s neighbours quarrel more amongst each other, than with Israel.
In this backdrop, the danger to Israel comes not from its neighbours, but from the racism and inflexibility of its leaders and friends. This is the only thing that could unite its neighbours against Israel.
Younger Israelis and American Jews realize this; it is the older lot that is part of the problem, instead of the soluton right now. This means the American Muslims should expect media bias and prejudice for at least another decade or so.. before things improve for them.
I agree with most of your comments.
Although younger American Jews depict much more maturity and fairness when dealing with the Israeli-Palestinian issue, I am amazed at the crude political incorrectness displayed by most Jewish opinionmakers towards Arabs and Muslims in this country. These 40-, 50- year olds are still living in the era when Israel was a weak state threatened by all of its Arab neighbours.
Times have changed now. This is not 1948. Jordan and Egypt have already recognized Israel. Syria is militarily weaker than Israel and is interested only in the return of Golan Heights. The Hezbollah in Lebanon is the only mortal enemy of Israel today but this enemy lacks the muscle to launch offensive operations. Moreover, Israel`s neighbours quarrel more amongst each other, than with Israel.
In this backdrop, the danger to Israel comes not from its neighbours, but from the racism and inflexibility of its leaders and friends. This is the only thing that could unite its neighbours against Israel.
Younger Israelis and American Jews realize this; it is the older lot that is part of the problem, instead of the soluton right now. This means the American Muslims should expect media bias and prejudice for at least another decade or so.. before things improve for them.
#77 Posted by echoboom on January 28, 2004 9:04:33 am
#68 by Saminasha
.......which ``mohalla good for nothings`` are....
Only the Commies, who else? But you are not one, are you?
Now everyone knows that lefty, pinko, liberal, secular, are the camiflouge one has to wear, otherwise it is to Castroland by the Freedom-Flyer U.S HotAirlines. Just like the bad bad muslims who take the liberal cover when jobs are on-line.
But you never claimed to be a muslim either. Say it and resolve the mystery once for all.
until then you are NOT ``... ``mohalla good for nothings`` ...
73:hossp
Read the article and let Mr. Ali Minai know what gospel he should have written.
.......which ``mohalla good for nothings`` are....
Only the Commies, who else? But you are not one, are you?
Now everyone knows that lefty, pinko, liberal, secular, are the camiflouge one has to wear, otherwise it is to Castroland by the Freedom-Flyer U.S HotAirlines. Just like the bad bad muslims who take the liberal cover when jobs are on-line.
But you never claimed to be a muslim either. Say it and resolve the mystery once for all.
until then you are NOT ``... ``mohalla good for nothings`` ...
73:hossp
Read the article and let Mr. Ali Minai know what gospel he should have written.
#76 Posted by arjun_m on January 28, 2004 9:04:33 am
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#75 Posted by Saminasha on January 28, 2004 8:59:53 am
``...After months of leading the U.S. search for weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, David Kay now says he believes stockpiles of such weapons never existed. In an interview with Tom Brokaw on NBC last night Kay said: ``Clearly, the intelligence that we went to war on was inaccurate, wrong...If there weren`t stockpiles of weapons, there must have been a production process which required plants, required people and would have produced documentation. But we have seen nothing that would indicate large-scale production... No scientist, no documentation nor physical evidence of the production plants...``
www.democracynow.org
Sending working class boys and girls to fight a hostile country: Bad
Sending them when Saddam`s regime would have toppled over on its own weight: Pretty Bad
Lying About it: Contemptible
www.democracynow.org
Sending working class boys and girls to fight a hostile country: Bad
Sending them when Saddam`s regime would have toppled over on its own weight: Pretty Bad
Lying About it: Contemptible
#74 Posted by arjun_m on January 28, 2004 8:47:02 am
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#73 Posted by hossp on January 28, 2004 8:21:10 am
It does not take long for them to come down from their high pedestal.
“…and hossp (hey, why leave out the last three letters?:-)” -Minai
“I think hospice has one `S`” -echobum.
It is easy to be bumming here and continue with their homily. When confronted with their real intentions, stooping low is what they excel in.
Just who are these people? This is unfortunate that the Pakistani community has several of its self-made leaders who have always supported the Saudi version of Islam, which is totally against the Islam that most Pakistani practice. In Pakistan, they have full army support. In fact, they participated fully with the Army in dismembering Pakistan in 1971. Their act of treachery has gone unpunished in Pakistan and they are still the blue-eye boys of the Pakistan Army.
Some of them have moved to the US but their hidden agenda has always been the same. To them every problem has a solution in Islam that in reality means that they have solution to every problem. Right or wrong, since their solution is the Islamic solution, others must agree with them. Now if you don’t agree first, they will start showing their true colors by stooping low and that will eventually lead to the final color and that is they actually believe in the solution their ideological buddies the thugs of Tora bora present.
They have never denounced the terrorism at American Soil and elsewhere. They in fact attempt to justify it in the guise of “Look-at-the-real-problem” type of demagoguery.
Since the article from Minai is too long or people have missed his true intentions let us see what he is saying in black and white.
“You, as a Muslim with a keen sense of history, should identify especially with this effort. After all, one of the greatest achievements of Islam was to strike at the root of arbitrary- and hereditary - power by establishing an objective legal framework that treated all citizens equally and where the ruler governed by the consent of the people.” -Minai
No history book can prove these catchphrases.
In the guise of supporting the Bill of rights Minai conveniently brings up the Jamaat Islami agenda. Jamaat Islami and Bill of rights????? ``koi batlao ke ham batlayen kya?``
The truth is; their true counterpart in this society is the Christian right with a huge difference though: Christian right does not support the thugs from Tora Bora but these people look to Tora bora for leadership.
#72 Posted by Saminasha on January 28, 2004 8:06:07 am
Arjun,
Heres what I find amusing: NRI`s on cyber sites accusing other South Asians of pinkosity...I mean, do you read the newspaper? Even George Jr.`s latest proposal on granting legalization access to all those faceless, nameless people who perform your invisible labor should be a BIG LIGHTBULB over your heads-as short termed as it seems.
Heres what I find amusing: NRI`s on cyber sites accusing other South Asians of pinkosity...I mean, do you read the newspaper? Even George Jr.`s latest proposal on granting legalization access to all those faceless, nameless people who perform your invisible labor should be a BIG LIGHTBULB over your heads-as short termed as it seems.
#71 Posted by Romair on January 28, 2004 8:01:31 am
Amanai #61: I think the situation for the American Muslims will get worse, specially if Republican neo-cons continue in office.
In this whole situation, the Pakisatni-Americans will end up being affected even though they are innocent bystanders. On the whole, Pakistani-Americans are one of the most successful and peaceful communities in the USA. They work hard, study hard and pay their taxes. The only thing they don`t do is play hard, i.e. party like the mainstream Americans party. But I don`t think partying should ever be a criteria of being part of any society.
This whole circle is a by-product of the battle between Israel and Palestine. That has grown into a battle between Israel and Arabs. Which has furthur grown into a battle between Israel and USA on one side and Arabs on the other side. Which has now resulted in a direct battle between Arabs and Americans. Although, if one thinks about it, Arabs and Americans have no indigenous conflict and need each others money and oil, respectively.
Through Arabs, Muslims have become the target. And through Muslims, American-Pakistanis as well.
I think those individuals suggesting that this is not a big deal and nothing will happen are living in a state of denial. A few things have to happen concurrently, for this issue to die down. First of all, the Democrats have to win the elections. Secondly, the Iraqi resistance has to force the Americans completely out of Iraq. And thirdly, no terrorist attack should occur in the USA soil for the next few (ten?) years.
If the above does not happen, then this circle of violence will continue. With Americans killing Arabs and Arabs killing Americans, and Pakistani kids in American schools being affected by it.
While people overdo the idea of Jewish conspiracies, many also under-estimate the fact that there are very strong pro-Israel pressure groups in the USA. After the NRA, the Jewish Leagues are the second most powerful pressure group in the country. And there is a turf war going on inside the USA, to ensure that the USA always stays on the side of Israel. Such a turf war does not exist in any other Western county. I have not noticed it in Canada, where the Israeli lobby is not nearly as strong as the one in the USA.
Following is what was said at the meeting of The American Jewish Congress:
``the presence and increased stature, and affluence, and enfranchisement of American Muslims...will present true dangers to American Jews.``
It would be one thing if this were said by an ordinary person. However, this was stated by Daniel Pipes, who has been appointed by George Bush to the Board of US Institue of Peace.
The above is an interesting quote. Affluence and increased stature is what all Pakistanis are trying to achieve in their personal life in the USA. If that presents dangers to American Jews, then what options are left for Pakistani-Americans?
Interestingly a Pakistani guy asked a representative of an American Jewish organization, on a Canadian TV show, whether he denounced this quote. He refused. Even more interestingly, the shows host who was Canadian and half-Jewish stated that he openly denounces such quotes.
I think this is the situation that the Pakistani-Americans are up against (and to a smaller degree anyone who looks like them). It is a time bomb waiting to go off, if another attack occurs in the USA. I am not sure how big of an, ``if`` that is considering the US govts` policies in the Middle East.
And I think Pakistani-Americans really need to be prepared for any such scenario, instead of fighiting amongst themselves. This definition of Pakistanis into Abduls and non-Abduls is the worse thing that could be done to the community. In fact, it will be the non-Abduls who will be the most affected under the above scenario. Since the Abduls are already used to taking abuse and being sidelined. While the non-Abduls are the one you described in your article, with the Mercedes.
It is very difficult for America journalists, academics, talk-show hosts etc. to take an anti-US stance in the USA media. This is why all the major stances against such quotes come from non-mainstream areas like democracyNow, NPR, etc. I don`t really think these have any affect, since CNN, Fox etc. are much more powerful.
In the end, the Muslim community in the USA will itself have to fight all of this. Even if the members of this community denounce their own community, it does not matter. Others will still put them into this community.
Unfortunately, one does not see any cohesive strategy by the Pakistani-American community to handle the situation. Including the comments on this site. They all seem to be waffling from one place to another. With some suggesting that no such issue exists, others suggesting that Muslims should cling to Islam even more, and a third group actually abusing everyone else in the community for not become a beer-drinking American.
I think the US-Muslim community truly lacks leadership. Interestingly the main leaders in the Arab-American community seem to all be Christian Arabs.
I think eventually the Muslim-American community will be forced to gel into a strong community, because they will have no choice. Much like the African-American, or Jewish-American or Latino-American community had to do. The other option is that they will be forced to go through the same assimilaiton process that other communities had to go through, to fit into the USA society. And I am not sure whether the Muslim-American community has the resilience to survive such an assimilation process.
I know Pakistani college students have already started looking towards other countries for studies. And given the choice, many Pakistani professionals are prefering Canada, UK etc. over USA. When it came time for me to decide, I prefered Canada over the USA (and haven`t regretted it for a second). Others like FOMC have moved away, after spending nearly 20 years in the USA.
All of these (and the views of the Pipes of the world) are things the Pakistani-American community has to take into account, if they plan to live in the USA for the rest of their lives. They would be very naive to discount them. And they need to realize that while they are innocent victims of this whole scenario i.e. they cannot do anything to stop the US-Arab conflict, the solution probably does not lie merely in trying to be, ``more American than the Americans.``
The solution lies in defining a place for themselves in the US society, in a manner, where even those of them who dress, ``wierd`` are accepted into the society, much like the Jewish community has been able to do.
The other point to keep in mind is that 99.9999% of the Muslims do not live in the USA, and have no links with the place. So they could care less about what is happening to Muslims in the USA. So the Muslim-Americans are really on their own, and will have to fight their own battles.
In this whole situation, the Pakisatni-Americans will end up being affected even though they are innocent bystanders. On the whole, Pakistani-Americans are one of the most successful and peaceful communities in the USA. They work hard, study hard and pay their taxes. The only thing they don`t do is play hard, i.e. party like the mainstream Americans party. But I don`t think partying should ever be a criteria of being part of any society.
This whole circle is a by-product of the battle between Israel and Palestine. That has grown into a battle between Israel and Arabs. Which has furthur grown into a battle between Israel and USA on one side and Arabs on the other side. Which has now resulted in a direct battle between Arabs and Americans. Although, if one thinks about it, Arabs and Americans have no indigenous conflict and need each others money and oil, respectively.
Through Arabs, Muslims have become the target. And through Muslims, American-Pakistanis as well.
I think those individuals suggesting that this is not a big deal and nothing will happen are living in a state of denial. A few things have to happen concurrently, for this issue to die down. First of all, the Democrats have to win the elections. Secondly, the Iraqi resistance has to force the Americans completely out of Iraq. And thirdly, no terrorist attack should occur in the USA soil for the next few (ten?) years.
If the above does not happen, then this circle of violence will continue. With Americans killing Arabs and Arabs killing Americans, and Pakistani kids in American schools being affected by it.
While people overdo the idea of Jewish conspiracies, many also under-estimate the fact that there are very strong pro-Israel pressure groups in the USA. After the NRA, the Jewish Leagues are the second most powerful pressure group in the country. And there is a turf war going on inside the USA, to ensure that the USA always stays on the side of Israel. Such a turf war does not exist in any other Western county. I have not noticed it in Canada, where the Israeli lobby is not nearly as strong as the one in the USA.
Following is what was said at the meeting of The American Jewish Congress:
``the presence and increased stature, and affluence, and enfranchisement of American Muslims...will present true dangers to American Jews.``
It would be one thing if this were said by an ordinary person. However, this was stated by Daniel Pipes, who has been appointed by George Bush to the Board of US Institue of Peace.
The above is an interesting quote. Affluence and increased stature is what all Pakistanis are trying to achieve in their personal life in the USA. If that presents dangers to American Jews, then what options are left for Pakistani-Americans?
Interestingly a Pakistani guy asked a representative of an American Jewish organization, on a Canadian TV show, whether he denounced this quote. He refused. Even more interestingly, the shows host who was Canadian and half-Jewish stated that he openly denounces such quotes.
I think this is the situation that the Pakistani-Americans are up against (and to a smaller degree anyone who looks like them). It is a time bomb waiting to go off, if another attack occurs in the USA. I am not sure how big of an, ``if`` that is considering the US govts` policies in the Middle East.
And I think Pakistani-Americans really need to be prepared for any such scenario, instead of fighiting amongst themselves. This definition of Pakistanis into Abduls and non-Abduls is the worse thing that could be done to the community. In fact, it will be the non-Abduls who will be the most affected under the above scenario. Since the Abduls are already used to taking abuse and being sidelined. While the non-Abduls are the one you described in your article, with the Mercedes.
It is very difficult for America journalists, academics, talk-show hosts etc. to take an anti-US stance in the USA media. This is why all the major stances against such quotes come from non-mainstream areas like democracyNow, NPR, etc. I don`t really think these have any affect, since CNN, Fox etc. are much more powerful.
In the end, the Muslim community in the USA will itself have to fight all of this. Even if the members of this community denounce their own community, it does not matter. Others will still put them into this community.
Unfortunately, one does not see any cohesive strategy by the Pakistani-American community to handle the situation. Including the comments on this site. They all seem to be waffling from one place to another. With some suggesting that no such issue exists, others suggesting that Muslims should cling to Islam even more, and a third group actually abusing everyone else in the community for not become a beer-drinking American.
I think the US-Muslim community truly lacks leadership. Interestingly the main leaders in the Arab-American community seem to all be Christian Arabs.
I think eventually the Muslim-American community will be forced to gel into a strong community, because they will have no choice. Much like the African-American, or Jewish-American or Latino-American community had to do. The other option is that they will be forced to go through the same assimilaiton process that other communities had to go through, to fit into the USA society. And I am not sure whether the Muslim-American community has the resilience to survive such an assimilation process.
I know Pakistani college students have already started looking towards other countries for studies. And given the choice, many Pakistani professionals are prefering Canada, UK etc. over USA. When it came time for me to decide, I prefered Canada over the USA (and haven`t regretted it for a second). Others like FOMC have moved away, after spending nearly 20 years in the USA.
All of these (and the views of the Pipes of the world) are things the Pakistani-American community has to take into account, if they plan to live in the USA for the rest of their lives. They would be very naive to discount them. And they need to realize that while they are innocent victims of this whole scenario i.e. they cannot do anything to stop the US-Arab conflict, the solution probably does not lie merely in trying to be, ``more American than the Americans.``
The solution lies in defining a place for themselves in the US society, in a manner, where even those of them who dress, ``wierd`` are accepted into the society, much like the Jewish community has been able to do.
The other point to keep in mind is that 99.9999% of the Muslims do not live in the USA, and have no links with the place. So they could care less about what is happening to Muslims in the USA. So the Muslim-Americans are really on their own, and will have to fight their own battles.
#70 Posted by soundmeister on January 28, 2004 7:32:03 am
I thought it was an excellent article but some of the posts made me sit up and wonder. The article makes sense while directed at **any** ethnic group
say Indian Americans or Chinese Americans.
Fact remains that ``American Muslim`` is far from an ethnic group though. Ummah is a strange concept, almost incomprehensible to non-Muslims. I can`t imagine a Somali, a Chechen and a Kashmiri (ok ok it`s just an example!) having anything in common even if they DO happen to pray to the same God. To expect them to bond in a strange land is something that inspires wonder. If anything the experience is that a proud people become even more insular while in alien surroundings.
Of course things change, usually it`s the second generation that manage to resolve these conflicts of identity with ease. look at Bobby Jindal- he`s about as ``Indian`` as I am upper-caste-privileged (like Drew Carey`s points, that don`t matter).
Nicely written though, Ali-bhai!
say Indian Americans or Chinese Americans.
Fact remains that ``American Muslim`` is far from an ethnic group though. Ummah is a strange concept, almost incomprehensible to non-Muslims. I can`t imagine a Somali, a Chechen and a Kashmiri (ok ok it`s just an example!) having anything in common even if they DO happen to pray to the same God. To expect them to bond in a strange land is something that inspires wonder. If anything the experience is that a proud people become even more insular while in alien surroundings.
Of course things change, usually it`s the second generation that manage to resolve these conflicts of identity with ease. look at Bobby Jindal- he`s about as ``Indian`` as I am upper-caste-privileged (like Drew Carey`s points, that don`t matter).
Nicely written though, Ali-bhai!
#69 Posted by arjun_m on January 28, 2004 7:32:03 am
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#68 Posted by Saminasha on January 28, 2004 6:04:47 am
Acha...and could Echoboom Sahib answer which ``mohalla good for nothings`` are
1. working for the fair legal process and release of the prisoners at Guantanamo Bay?
2. reporting on the futile search for WMDs in Iraq
3. organizing to provide community supports for immigrant desi/Muslim communities in NYC?
4. articulating platforms critical of and alternative to current Bush administration domestic and international policy?
Lets see if he can answer any of these questions.
1. working for the fair legal process and release of the prisoners at Guantanamo Bay?
2. reporting on the futile search for WMDs in Iraq
3. organizing to provide community supports for immigrant desi/Muslim communities in NYC?
4. articulating platforms critical of and alternative to current Bush administration domestic and international policy?
Lets see if he can answer any of these questions.
#67 Posted by echoboom on January 27, 2004 11:02:53 pm
61:aminai
Salaam-alaikum
Now despite some basic difference in modus-operandi AND perhaps philosophy, I think we can still do business together. Your heart seems to be in the right place.
The reason I say so is that while I speak from the privilege of anonymity ( and I guard it very fiercely. It is just an act. In real life I might be--you! vallah-alam blilsavaab.) and therefore blast my mind at full throttle.
You, on the other hand, with your real name, occupation, and picture ( I would remove at least last two) are restrained and limited by your vocation and accountability. I can afford to have fun, you on the other hand must display sobriety.
I have combed and compared this writing with earlier ones. A noticeable departure is there. Could be new environment or it could be a few more gray hair near the temples. We all, eventually come to terms or try to anyway and declare cease-fire against ourselves.
I think hospice has one `S`.
Mauj hai daryaa main aur beiroon-e daryaa kuchh naheeN.
(Eventually it is always the mohalla good-for-nothings who come to our rescue when the going gets really tough--like war or disasters. These are the same souls, we spare no effort in kicking around by our cultural-imperialism)
Salaam-alaikum
Now despite some basic difference in modus-operandi AND perhaps philosophy, I think we can still do business together. Your heart seems to be in the right place.
The reason I say so is that while I speak from the privilege of anonymity ( and I guard it very fiercely. It is just an act. In real life I might be--you! vallah-alam blilsavaab.) and therefore blast my mind at full throttle.
You, on the other hand, with your real name, occupation, and picture ( I would remove at least last two) are restrained and limited by your vocation and accountability. I can afford to have fun, you on the other hand must display sobriety.
I have combed and compared this writing with earlier ones. A noticeable departure is there. Could be new environment or it could be a few more gray hair near the temples. We all, eventually come to terms or try to anyway and declare cease-fire against ourselves.
I think hospice has one `S`.
Mauj hai daryaa main aur beiroon-e daryaa kuchh naheeN.
(Eventually it is always the mohalla good-for-nothings who come to our rescue when the going gets really tough--like war or disasters. These are the same souls, we spare no effort in kicking around by our cultural-imperialism)
#66 Posted by ballukhan on January 27, 2004 11:02:52 pm
#62 by sameerJB on January 27, 2004 8:21pm PT
I have always maintained that those who talk about consolidating the muslim votes in America or anywhere are playing into the hands of the mullahs. Guys, you are soon to be gobbled up by the OBL types who woud shout before the white house and claim to be your representative.
Forget introducing Islamic agendas into American politics- I would recommend all the American muslims to talk about secularism and forget this muslim vote bloc non-sense. Stop playing into the hands of OBL types who recommend this voting on the basis of religious grounds. Stop trying to Pakistanize America (or any other country). Can`t you guys see that this is what 9/11 was all about- making religion the over-riding issue in international politics.
I have always maintained that those who talk about consolidating the muslim votes in America or anywhere are playing into the hands of the mullahs. Guys, you are soon to be gobbled up by the OBL types who woud shout before the white house and claim to be your representative.
Forget introducing Islamic agendas into American politics- I would recommend all the American muslims to talk about secularism and forget this muslim vote bloc non-sense. Stop playing into the hands of OBL types who recommend this voting on the basis of religious grounds. Stop trying to Pakistanize America (or any other country). Can`t you guys see that this is what 9/11 was all about- making religion the over-riding issue in international politics.
#65 Posted by ballukhan on January 27, 2004 11:02:52 pm
First denounce terrorism and radicalism- show America about the peaceful side of Islam- guys do not try to Pakistanize America....
WASHINGTON, Jan. 22 /U.S. Newswire/ -- A Prominent national
civil rights and advocacy group today called on the Christian
Coalition of America to offer ``accurate and balanced``
presentations at its upcoming symposium on Islam in Washington,
D.C. The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) issued
that appeal after learning that the Feb. 15 symposium, called
``Muslims & The Judeo-Christian World - Where to From Here?`` will
feature several speakers known for their hostility to Islam.
SEE:
http://www.cc.org/becomeinformed/pressreleases011403.html
Those speakers include Daniel Pipes, a commentator who claims
the ``increased stature, and affluence, and enfranchisement of
American Muslims...will present true dangers to American Jews.``
(Daniel Pipes` speech before the convention of the American
Jewish Congress, 10/21/2001) A central theme of Pipes`
commentary is that American Muslims are a threat because they
have the goal of ``transforming (the United States) into a Moslem
country.`` (Jewish World Review, 11/16/2000)
Another speaker, WorldNetDaily.com Editor Joseph Farah,
publishes almost daily diatribes against Islam and Muslims. In
a June 2002 column, Farah claimed, ``Islam has been at war with
the West, with Christianity, with Judaism...ever since the days
of (the Prophet) Muhammad.`` He also rejected criticism of a
Worldnetdaily.com article advocating that, ``For every (Israeli)
civilian, 100 non-combatant Palestinian adults will be slain,
and for every child, 1,000 adults,`` saying that he found the
proposal to be ``a very thoughtful and quite responsible
contribution to the Middle East debate.``
Other editorials on WorldNetDaily.com called the Quran,
Islam`s revealed text, a ``suicide playbook`` and recommended
air-lifting pigs into Afghan mosques. A headline in today`s
WorldNetDaily.com reads: ``Up Shiite creek without a policy.``
A third speaker, Dr. Labib Mikhail, has written: ``If one
examines the impact of Islam on the society Muhammad created by
the dictates of his Quran, one discovers a society full of
corruption, bloodshed, lack of individual freedom, and
brutality.`` He also wrote: ``It is clear that the Quran condones
racism, violence, terrorism, and killing of Jews and Christians,
in the name of Allah.`` The latest edition of his book, ``Islam,
Muhammad and the Koran,`` has chapter titles such as ``Islam is
Not a Religion of Peace`` and ``Islam is Not a Divine Religion.``
A news release announcing the symposium quotes Christian
Coalition of America President Roberta Combs saying the
conference will educate Americans about ``the true nature of
Islam`` and will discuss ``implications for America of the growing
Islamic population in the United States.`` The coalition claims
to be ``America`s largest Christian grassroots organization with
more than 2 million supporters.``
``Left unrefuted, the bigoted views promoted by the listed
speakers will only serve to increase unthinking hatred directed
at Islam and the American Muslim community. We call on symposium
organizers to offer mainstream Muslim leaders and scholars an
opportunity to provide accurate and balanced information about
Islam to program participants. Without such balance, the
conference will be viewed as just another Islamophobic
hate-fest, further harming our nation`s image and interests
worldwide,`` said CAIR Executive Director Nihad Awad. Awad said
the conference seems to fit a pattern of anti-Islam efforts in
certain segments of the evangelical movement in America. He
cited recent anti-Muslim rhetoric by evangelical leaders such as
Franklin Graham, Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell.
Awad also noted that a group of Christian missionaries
working in Muslim countries recently issued a letter asking that
their co-religionists refrain from denouncing Islam or the
Prophet Muhammad. (Religion News Service.) Today`s Florida
Times-Union reports that Christian groups in that state have
repudiated an anti-Islam sign put up by a local church.
SEE: ``Florida churches denounce Mandarin sign against Islam``
http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/012203/met_11536731.shtml
WASHINGTON, Jan. 22 /U.S. Newswire/ -- A Prominent national
civil rights and advocacy group today called on the Christian
Coalition of America to offer ``accurate and balanced``
presentations at its upcoming symposium on Islam in Washington,
D.C. The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) issued
that appeal after learning that the Feb. 15 symposium, called
``Muslims & The Judeo-Christian World - Where to From Here?`` will
feature several speakers known for their hostility to Islam.
SEE:
http://www.cc.org/becomeinformed/pressreleases011403.html
Those speakers include Daniel Pipes, a commentator who claims
the ``increased stature, and affluence, and enfranchisement of
American Muslims...will present true dangers to American Jews.``
(Daniel Pipes` speech before the convention of the American
Jewish Congress, 10/21/2001) A central theme of Pipes`
commentary is that American Muslims are a threat because they
have the goal of ``transforming (the United States) into a Moslem
country.`` (Jewish World Review, 11/16/2000)
Another speaker, WorldNetDaily.com Editor Joseph Farah,
publishes almost daily diatribes against Islam and Muslims. In
a June 2002 column, Farah claimed, ``Islam has been at war with
the West, with Christianity, with Judaism...ever since the days
of (the Prophet) Muhammad.`` He also rejected criticism of a
Worldnetdaily.com article advocating that, ``For every (Israeli)
civilian, 100 non-combatant Palestinian adults will be slain,
and for every child, 1,000 adults,`` saying that he found the
proposal to be ``a very thoughtful and quite responsible
contribution to the Middle East debate.``
Other editorials on WorldNetDaily.com called the Quran,
Islam`s revealed text, a ``suicide playbook`` and recommended
air-lifting pigs into Afghan mosques. A headline in today`s
WorldNetDaily.com reads: ``Up Shiite creek without a policy.``
A third speaker, Dr. Labib Mikhail, has written: ``If one
examines the impact of Islam on the society Muhammad created by
the dictates of his Quran, one discovers a society full of
corruption, bloodshed, lack of individual freedom, and
brutality.`` He also wrote: ``It is clear that the Quran condones
racism, violence, terrorism, and killing of Jews and Christians,
in the name of Allah.`` The latest edition of his book, ``Islam,
Muhammad and the Koran,`` has chapter titles such as ``Islam is
Not a Religion of Peace`` and ``Islam is Not a Divine Religion.``
A news release announcing the symposium quotes Christian
Coalition of America President Roberta Combs saying the
conference will educate Americans about ``the true nature of
Islam`` and will discuss ``implications for America of the growing
Islamic population in the United States.`` The coalition claims
to be ``America`s largest Christian grassroots organization with
more than 2 million supporters.``
``Left unrefuted, the bigoted views promoted by the listed
speakers will only serve to increase unthinking hatred directed
at Islam and the American Muslim community. We call on symposium
organizers to offer mainstream Muslim leaders and scholars an
opportunity to provide accurate and balanced information about
Islam to program participants. Without such balance, the
conference will be viewed as just another Islamophobic
hate-fest, further harming our nation`s image and interests
worldwide,`` said CAIR Executive Director Nihad Awad. Awad said
the conference seems to fit a pattern of anti-Islam efforts in
certain segments of the evangelical movement in America. He
cited recent anti-Muslim rhetoric by evangelical leaders such as
Franklin Graham, Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell.
Awad also noted that a group of Christian missionaries
working in Muslim countries recently issued a letter asking that
their co-religionists refrain from denouncing Islam or the
Prophet Muhammad. (Religion News Service.) Today`s Florida
Times-Union reports that Christian groups in that state have
repudiated an anti-Islam sign put up by a local church.
SEE: ``Florida churches denounce Mandarin sign against Islam``
http://www.jacksonville.com/tu-online/stories/012203/met_11536731.shtml
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