2004 Democratic Presidential Candidates and Pakistan

ralph,

``Why do Pakistanis keep insisting that they are genetically inferior to others? Give up this racist mindset.``

i do not belive in genetic superiority or inferiority or a indiviudal/group. this is more of a brahmin/sudra concept. i am not sure how you derived this from my statements.

i think pakistanis are extremely qualified individuals but historically pakistan has produced inept leaders. pakistan is the only muslim country to attain nuclear weapons, this is a significant technological achievement and very few countries in the world have achieved it. moreover, articles/opinions on chowk.com attest to the intellect of pakistanis.

soysauce, I have been told that by some of my colleagues from South India as well. But my parents named me after the ``farsi`` (Persian) word armughan/armaghan meaning ``gift`` -- as in the title of Iqbal`s book ``Armughan-e-Hijaz``.

Ralph/Rational Faith at # 35:

Please read my response to you at # 207 on Hijab interactive board.

Furthermore, you wrote:

``If Pakistan produces so many Islamists, fanatical terrorists, and Islamist pseudo-theorists like Romair but no great leaders, you need to ask why that is the case.``

Pakistani terrorists are a no match for Indian terrorists like Advani, Joshi, Modi, Thakray, etc. who are responsible for killing thousands of innocent Christians, Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs. Pakistanis are also no match for Indians in rewarding killers of human beings, since you people elected them to power. Problem is that Pakistani legal system is also no match for Indian judicial system. Your judicial system plays musical chairs in favor of Joshi and Modi and in favor of fundoo Indoos arrested on the killing of Muslims in Gujrat Bakery case. Historically too, recall that when Tehelka.com had exposed massive corruption in your Government, it was tehelka that was made to disappear.

Given the above evidence, I don`t think any Pakistani on Chowk is a match in hate mongering and extremism for fundoos from India like arjuns, jays, peeing mishras, saxenas, moronicbanias, mumbaikers, ir-Rational Faiths, etc.

:-)

Dear author,
Something completely off topic - I`m curious about your name. Arumughan/arumugan in dravidian mythology refers to the six-faced god who was absorbed into hindu mythology as Siva/Shiva`s son, Subra(h)manyan.

wahi_to #various

``Pakistan has terrible leaders``

``Pakistan expects too much from this and that``

Why do Pakistanis keep insisting that they are genetically inferior to others? Give up this racist mindset. There is no genetic reason why a person born in Pakistani Punjab, Sindh, or Baluchistan cannot be a great leader, if the environment was right. If Pakistan produces so many Islamists, fanatical terrorists, and Islamist pseudo-theorists like Romair but no great leaders, you need to ask why that is the case.

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I don`t understand this whining sentiment of how America deserted Pakistan after the afghan campaign. AS I recall, Pakistan made off quite well in terms of aid; economic, humanitarian and military. A quid pro quo that served bothcountries well.

AS far as the assertions that the``neocons``don`t understand the middle east is hogwash. It is the exisitng leadership in the middle east that is their worst enemy. There is no one philosophical movement that sways people in the middle east. Arab nationalism or the grand caliphate, and arab caliphate or a turnkish or persian one, what about the palestinians? if the palestinians then what about the Jordanians and ISraelis? I thnk theNeocons have a much better clue about the middleeast than most wonks in the arab/islamic circles and moreso than the wonks on this board.

arjun_m,

maybe what you are saying that pakis expect too much from usa and when they do not get it they start crying foul....

my contention is that pakistan should not expect anything from usa, be it financial or military assistance. no country can be strong on the basis of charity. pakistan will remain financially and politically colonised as long as it is dependant on other nations.

also do not forget that after 9/11 India was behaving like a desperate young girl wanting to be screwed by ameican studs. use our bases, use our army, use anything but dear sir bush please use us.

btw, what is your opinion about this scenario that i have come up with:

***

i think what is more dangerous is the nuke in the hands of sanghis in india. imagine they get strong majority in parliament and then there is a terrorist attack like that of parliament. i think RSS/VHP/BJP will rush towards the nuke button and blow up the pakis. this would demonstrate ``hindu ab jaag chuka hai``. the animals that conducted gujarat genocide are capable of any act.

***

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Bush in White House will be quite good for Pakistan. Him and Musharraf seem to have become best friends.

However, Bush in White House will not be good for Pakistani-Americans. He will not be good for Middle East either, since his neo-con think tank is out to change the whole area, while not understanding it enough to realize their own limitations, thereby creating even more private and state terrorism, by everyone.

A. Javaid:

This is a good analysis.

Imho, George Bush would definitely be better for Pakistan (and also for Muslims in general) to continue at the White House. My reasons for supporting Republicans are as follows:

1. President Musharraf and his Government has a definite understanding with Bush Administration. Just imagine if we had none, what would have been the faith of Pakistan on issues like historic support to Talibans (and therefore, like fundoo Indoos claim, to Al Qaeda), and information leakage to Iran by some of our scientists, etc.

2. Optimistic scenario: Bush Administration may be guilty after a series of steps against Muslims and may be trying its best to offset the initial discriminatory stance by extending favors.

3. Pessimistic scenario: Bush Administration may return to its discriminatory attitude after the present short spanned burst of pro-Muslim stance. This would also be good for Muslims for the biased behavior that has opened our eyes forcing us into cooperation in economics; education; technology; etc., may organize ourselves a bit more after the true colors of the `friends of the past` reveal.

As regards some of the posts of hate-Pakistan and hate-Muslim fundoo Indoos on the board, showing Pakistan under all sorts of pressure, we are now accustomed to them. These fundoos were predicting Pakistan`s fall after 9/11, after Mullas came to power in Pakhtoon areas of Pakistan, after Mullas aligned themselves against the Government on USA`s invasion of Iraq, after the newspapers of the West accused Pakistan`s Pakhtoons of supporting Talibans, etc. Nothing of the sort happened. Pakistan came out stronger after each of these tests.

:-)

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re: hossp

[the people most hurt by Pakistani nukes would be Pakistan citizens themselves. The Islamic terrorists are basically bunch of crazies with no scruples. If Jihadi get control of Nukes, it highly likely that in their hallucination and to show their control over nukes, may chose an area in Pakistan to demonstrate their new found weapons. ]

you must be smoking somehting to come up with this scenario. how about this scenario: they find a foreign journalist, stuff a nuke up his ass and blow him up. that will certainly demonstrate their weapons. right...

i think what is more dangerous is the nuke in the hands of sanghis in india. imagine they get strong majority in parliament and then there is a terrorist attack like that of parliament. i think RSS/VHP/BJP will rush towards the nuke button and blow up the pakis. this would demonstrate ``hindu ab jaag chuka hai``. the animals that conducted gujarat genocide are capable of any act.

Arjun, thanks for the feedback. AFAIK, the military and economic aid is in progress (e.g. the C-130 sales have been cleared). Of course, Congress and/or an executive order can stop the process at any time.

The Patriot Act has affected Muslims living in the US including Pakistani-Americans.

interesting article but a naive ending (the beginnings of a symbiotic relationship.).

there never was and never will be a symbiotic relationship between pakistan and usa. this is wishful thinking. usa has a use and throw foreign policy and it seems pakistani leaders have no problems being the toilet paper. previously it was afghan war, now it is pakistan`s nukes and al-qaeda. when these two issues are resolved, usa will look for the nearest exit.

fundamentals of american foreign policy remains the same, irrespective of party in control of white house. clinton bombed afghanistan and iraq at his convenience. bush jr. waged a full scale war.

pakistan is blessed with terrible leaders. musharraf will top the list when he will sign a peace treaty or some other ambiguous sham giving up pakistan`s nukes in the interest of world peace.

#22 harimau.

I know what you mean and I accept that. There are a few things that need to be said in a different way. Just to let you know that I think the terrorists that went in to Indian Parliament were not wearing suicide Jackets but they did have vans.
This link below will help you wee bit in following my message w/o going too much in semantic or tech jargons.
It is not a matter of even the blast effect. The act of blowing couple of such nuke bombs would be enough to cause huge alarms bell going off all over the world.
The Smallest size of bomb would be of approx 500 lbs. Of course, I don’t have any inside track on Pak nuke program. I have to rely on some sources.
I think some will now have to make a decision whether Pak nukes are in safe hands or not.

http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/feb2004-daily/01-02-2004/main/main3.htm

Ref hossp #20

[I will give you a scenario about the nukes. Sit back, close your eyes and ponder over it.

I hope to god that this does not happen. What If, the terrorists, who went into the Indian parliament two years ago, were wearing jackets made of these nukes? Could you possibly imagine the consequences and repercussions of such an action?]

The smallest nuke (a suitcase bomb, as it is called) will weigh about 200 lbs. Building such a nuke requires a lot of sophistication. It will look like a big backpack and it would be quite difiicult to carry for any length of time.

Transporting it in a van and setting it off in New Delhi is possible. Unfortunately, the effect won`t be that much. Most nuclear weapons kill primarily from the blast effects (heat and intense air pressure generated by the detonation). Before they dropped the bomb on Hiroshima, the Americans calculated that an airburst at 1900 feet above ground would cause the maximum damage from the fireball. Detonation at ground level would kick up a lot of dirt and dig a huge hole in the ground. The nuclear waste material would get dispersed over a smaller area compared to an airburst.

There would be catastrophic damage no doubt but not on the scale that would result from an airburst,

Check out the High Energy Weapons site for more info.

There is a bigger problem brewing in Pakistan then the terrorists. It is Pakistan’s Nuke program that is emerging as a real threat to not even its neighbors but to western democracies at large.

Though at this point it is not such a huge issue in democratic primaries but once we reach the one on one phase of the elections, democrat candidate will have to define his policy towards nukes in Pakistan and for that matter in India too. The Indian problem is not as urgent as the problem in Pakistan.
The fear of Pakistan’s nuke falling in the hands of Terrorists and extreme Islamic right wing are real and it would be imperative that Democratic nominee takes a clear stand on Pakistan nuke instead of on and off half hearted policy by the Bush admin. The Bush admin policy based on daily contingencies would put the whole area in peril. Many don’t realize it but the people most hurt by Pakistani nukes would be Pakistan citizens themselves. The Islamic terrorists are basically bunch of crazies with no scruples. If Jihadi get control of Nukes, it highly likely that in their hallucination and to show their control over nukes, may chose an area in Pakistan to demonstrate their new found weapons.

From the very beginning, it was feared that Pakistan nuke design allows the ability to detonate nukes thru the remote devices and would not require huge transport mechanism. These nukes supposedly can be transported using small vans and trucks. These nukes may not be able to destroy a city the size of Nagasaki or Hiroshima, but surely can cause huge damage in the hands of unscrupulous elements.

I will give you a scenario about the nukes. Sit back, close your eyes and ponder over it.

I hope to god that this does not happen. What If, the terrorists, who went into the Indian parliament two years ago, were wearing jackets made of these nukes? Could you possibly imagine the consequences and repercussions of such an action?

And here is how it can happen.

Pakistan General are under siege from pretty much everybody, internally, externally, internationally, in Pakistan’s neighborhood, and within their own army and within their own country. There are people out there who would just love to wring their necks.
These Generals are still in power, because of an extremely thin support from the US. The minute the US support snaps, Generals would be fending off many enemies. What is the guarantee that at that time to save their necks they would not go berserk?

The Generals are the command and control structure of Pakistani nukes. We now also know that some Generals, in the past, in Pakistan were entertaining the Iranians and Libyan to sell the nuke technology. The threat to Pakistan’s command and control structure comes from within. The guardians of the command and control structure are the weakest link. That is the real weakness in the whole story. It is not beyond the realm of belief that when Generals are running for their lives, they can pass the nukes on to unscrupulous or in the chaos, even for a couple of days, unholy elements can get control of the nukes in Pakistan.
This is a plausible scenario. The Bush admin is under siege at this time from within due to its lies before the Iraq War and its grip on international situations would loosen if internal siege does not end soon. That gives an ample opportunity to right wing extremist/Jihadi in Pakistan Army to either kill or overthrow Musharaf.

Hence, the Pakistan nukes are a bigger cause of concern at this time then the killing or capture of OBL without overlooking the importance of that event too.


PS. Part of this post were posted by me at another web site in the past.

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Arjun M:

``Rush Limbaugh took off to a large extent because of right wing anger towards Clinton(and to some extent anger against ``read-my-lips`` Bush Sr). ``

More like anger towards Manhattan, Berkeley and Cambridge based elites. Basically there are two Americas and they talk at each other, not to each other.

rsaxena: Hmm, I have gone thru Kay`s testimony and I do not see ``lying`` mentioned at all. Maybe you can post the part of his testimony that says that in case I missed it.

Pankaj: Completely agree. Let the UN take over the humanitarian aspect now that American military objectives are complete.

I mean only last week mad cow was mooing about wmds in Iraq.

Mr. Bush, you got the world rid of that barbaric dictator Saddam, great job. Now get the hell out of Iraq. I dont see any point why American tax dollars should go towards maintaining a large army in that God forsaken place. it is not even a good business. Even if you sell the entire Iraq and its oil, it wouldn`t pay you a couple of hundred billion $$$, the kind of money you want to keep an army in Iraq.

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re: stuka

republicans have been caught lying and misrepresenting intelligence to pursue an $87 billion war...it is all over the papers...you can`t miss it...

nasah:

i will remind you of your pledge in november.

what i`d like to see is how fox news reacts in case their beloved president loses.

Hey Armu., Great article, very diligently written.
But i believe the case now for Pakistan lies in `correcting` itself and weed out that terrorism from our land for good. We have no choice. The decision for us has been made. And it has been made elsewhere. So does it matter if a Democrat comes to the White House or this Republican stays? Itll be daft thinking if we are not to learn from our past and not improve ourselves. Time demands astute and rapid planning right away. Unfortunately, we dont have much time.
Your writing clearly reflects the choice between the lesser or the two evils. But, we must not forget that the bigger devil replaces the smaller one. Always.

any democratic dog is better than this Bushy Bumbling Buffoon.......

now it turns out that this Dyslexic Dimwit has not only `Faulty Intelligence` -- he is also mathematically challenged -- look at his Medicare calculations....

how did we end up with such a Moron........the stupidest president in the entire hisitory of the United States....

O God if you exist -- give us a sign -- get rid of this moron in November 20004 -- and I will reconvert into Your devout Muslim once again.......

.....o God........the MORON has not only bankrupted us Morally............he is about to bankrupt us Financially......a miscalculation 530 billion dollars?.....pleeeze get rid of him in November.....we can`t AFFORD this Miscalculatin Mongoloid.....o Lord ....get rid of him........pretty pleeze

It probably does not matter too much for pakistan, whichever administration is in the white house. I think they have to continue supporting Musharraf, and Kerry does seem to have the best grasp on such foreign policy issues amongst all the democrat contenders. A Kerry/Edwards ticket will be a formidable one, though Karl Rove and the republican machinery will try to paint Kerry as a massachusetts liberal. Edwards is by far, the best communicator amongst all the candidates and the nomination was his if `national security` had not played a major role in this election. Dean will probably drop out soon, as will Clark.

Good article. I would say that Clarks proposal (of which I was not aware) of sending Saudi commandos to Pakistan/Afghan border, if true, is quite ludicrous.

On a point of history, the Republican leaning to Pakistan has not been dictated solely by external circumstance. The Republicans have always had a more pragmatic, solution based foreign policy which implicitly means alliances based on shared objectives (containing the cold war) rather then shared ideologies (democracy) That has had disadvantages (Iran 1977-1978) and advantages (Reagen actually succeeded in getting the hostages out where Carter failed)

Good article. It is worth recalling the political organization of Muslims in the last presedential elections. In hind sight, american muslims made two key mistakes:

1 - Muslims should not have selected their vote based on a few issues. It were Bush`s kind comments regarding abolishing secret evidence law that won muslims hearts. Perhaps his comment on being ``gentler`` in foriegn policy made muslims think that the sanctions against Iraq could be lifted and perhaps Palestinians may have some hope. In the process we overlooked his alliance with nut cases like Jerry Falwell, and Pat Roberson.

2- The second key mistake american muslim voters made was to forget the fact that historically liberal governments tend to give more importance to civil liberties than the conservative ones. This is true whether its a christian conservative, jewish conservative or a muslim conservative government anywhere in the world.

A fair, intelligent analysis.

An excellent assessment! If the Iraq situation and Terrorist hanging out in Pakistan-Afghan area would not change perceptibly, even the Democrat President would not have much to change in the current policy.
The US is working on the premise that by encouraging Musharaf and his group in the army, the US can at a minimum, make sure to neutralize terrorists in that area. The bigger news would be the capture of the big guns of the terrorist hiding in the mountain.
The long term element in the US policy is that the policy makers feel that by encouraging the peace process between India and Pakistan the alternate to the army rule in Pakistan can be developed. That is precisely where the problems crop up for Musharaf and his group. The Jihadi elements in Pakistan army and outside of it are dead-set against improving relations with India. Especially de-escalation in Kashmir situation would hurt the Jihadi group politically.

The US is also putting pressure on Musharaf to deal with the nuke issue in Pakistan. The reason behind that is clear. If Musharaf finally fails to maintain grip, the likelihood of nukes falling in the hands of unsavory elements increases manifold.
The US will continue to work in these areas

• Minimize opposition to Musharaf in the Pakistan Army.
• Ensure a complete control of the nukes by the Musharaf group.
• Continue to pressure Pakistan to neutralize the terrorists in Pakistan.
• Encourage India to normalize relations with Pakistan and in turn, Pakistan to cool off its support to Jihadi in Kashmir.

Next few months would be interesting in the US-India-Pakistan relations. With election almost around the corner, the current US administration would like to see some solid progress in terrorist situation in Pakistan including the arrest of OBL. If that is not possible, Al Zawarhi would be acceptable.