The Nuclear Noose Around Pakistan’s Neck

Tahmed`s gem.

China is not a threat to India but India is a threat to Pakistan.

LOL!

re. Urstruly #184:
That was moving. I hope you mailed a copy of that paean to Xerox`s email addy. No wait... to Timbuktu!

rsridhar #191

You misunderstood me. I am not saying we should scoff at our prudence, both in the matter of maintaining democracy and nuclear knowhow. I am saying that we as a nation should set such standards for ourselves that ``not doing what Pakistan did`` will not become a source of pride. Zia, Musharraf, AQ Khan are all scumbags. And Maneckshaw, Sunderjee, Bhabha and Kalam are all good men. But these good men are good because they realise that what they are doing is merely their duty. If we start spreading a culture where just doing your duty is a source of pride (please understand the import of the word pride here, it is bordering on ``patting your own back``), then people will start thinking doing their duty is something only a few ``greats`` can do.

I am reminded of what Kiran Bedi said on receiving some award. She said that she is getting the award for just doing her job, because no one else does their`s and so just doing your job is worthy of an award. She said she would much rather live in a society where no one really pays much attention to what she does, because every police officer does the same, i.e do his/her duty.

Get my point? Not taking anything away from `Sam Bahadur` or APJ Abdul kalam.

Let us not take this Xerox Khan, compare him to Kalam and call it the ``Tale of Two Abduls``. They can not be mentioned in the same breath.

To use a cricketing analogy, saying that India should be ``proud`` for the aforementioned reasons is like saying Tendulkar should be ``proud`` that he bats better than Shahid Afridi. Nope, Tendulkar should be proud if he outperforms an equal like Lara. But yeah, he can be glad that he doesn`t bat like Afridi. So can we, actually. ;-)

Hope this clarifies the issue.

tahmed32 #197

About the starving millions, just a small point. We do have enough food grains to feed these starving millions, There is foodgrain rotting in the godowns every year. What we lack is a better system to replace the current rickety ``ration card`` that will ensure that this grain does not rot, but is given to the hungry. This is the difference between the starving Indians of the 60s and the starving Indians of the 21st century. In the 60s, we didnt have money and so we were starving. Now we have money. We have just screwed up the combination to the godown lock. How pathetic, eh? The same goes for infrastructure. there is enough money to build infrastructure. It is just that most of the money is gobbled up midway because of a corrupt system. recently, privatisation has helped bring about a vast improvement in the infrastructure. A better system is all we need. That is all that is keeping us from removing poverty and its signs from our country. Nothing material, just a good system. And we Indians have thus far been too busy getting lured into Socialist traps to put simple workable systems in place.

As pathetic as this state of affairs might be, you must have intelligently gauged one fact. The eradication of hunger or better roads is not being stalled by a Nuclear program, or a Blue Sea Navy, or even a Moon Mission. Because in 21st century India, as opposed to the 1960s India, the problem is not of availability. It is of distribution.

Whether there is any point or not to Nuclearisation, aircraft carriers or moon missions, is something to be debated and then decided. However if you think that by stopping those projects, we will feed our hungry masses, you are a tad mistaken.

Just to put things in perspective, the moon mission is expected to cost 300 crore rupees. If this money were to be distributed to the 30 crore ``poor`` in India, each person would get 10 rupees. That doesn`t go too far in India nowadays.

Another thing is, this 1.5 billion dollar expenditure should not be taken as a one time thing. the ship will take about 10 years to be fully armed and commissioned. 1.5 billion dollars over 10 years is not that bad, methinks. After all, assuming that the Indian economy has a GDP of 500 billion (not PPP mind you ;)) for the next 10 years, at 3% being allotted to defence, the defence spend will be 150 billion dollars. out of that, 1.5 billion will buy us an aircraft carrier. Not too bad eh?

I suggest you calculate how much money it takes to feed 30 crore ``poor`` starving Indians for a whole year. Then look at India`s annual defence budget and nuclear spending estimates. I doubt if the budget+spending estimates will be even 1% of the food bill.

This ``Nuclear weapons and aircraft carriers at the expense of the nation`s hungry`` is a simplistic argument used mainly by Pinkos and Leftists to be heard in the media. I am surprised to hear a respected chowki such as you using the same line.

ABOUT CHINA

You forgot to consider taiwan, whom most Chinese missiles are pointed at. It is a well accepted fact that were it not for USA wielding the stick, Taiwan would have been swallowed ages ago. Even japan and S Korea would not be sitting pretty.

I am not saying China is this big villain we need to kill. Nope. India and China are indeed natural allies, and we should try to benefit from each others` markets, if not other things. There is huge potential for cooperation in the WTO. For such cooperation, we should not mind giving up a few pieces of un-arable land, and receive some in exchange. By giving de-facto recognition to Sikkim as an Indian state, China has shown it views India as a friend too.

I am just saying that China is not as benign as you are implying it to be. Just because you are friendly with someone does not mean you throw your weapons down. It does not take much to change the nature of a country`s intentions. Remember Iraq and USA in 1980s, and look at Iraq and USA now. Or look at the oscillating graph of the Pak-Afg relationship.

I think what Vajpayee is doing is the best thing to do. Start talking, resolve issues, start doing business, but also keep building up the army. If both India and China are non-aggressive nations, neither should have a problem with that, right?

I hope you understand the subtle but enormous difference between ``China is our enemy`` and ``China is our rival``. I abhor the former statement and welcome the latter.

arjun #211 Point granted.

Total score:

Tahmed - 99
Arjun - 1

whippinzd: Those are not my arguments. Sorry, I only defend what I wrote, not what other people say I wrote. If you wish to criticize something I wrote, please cut and paste what I wrote and THEN explain why it doesnt make sense.

Urstruly #184,

``Is there anything this son of the soil won`t do for his motherland``

Is he really a son of the soil ? I thought he moved from Bhopal in 1952.
Don`t wish to interrupt your grieving, however.

tahmed

The only other ``argument`` I have heard is that it is none of my business to be commenting on Indian government actions

You misunderstand. Indian govt, by discussing issues of importance in parliament, get indian people in confidance, that is a well defined mechanism. You are not party to this decision making. You are welcome to comment however. Some have attempted to give you the reasons behind buying tubs and bandooks. So you are welcome to opine that pakistan needs bums and all-weather road from lhasa to guadwar etc in national security interest and india should reuse tipu sultan era rockets (only peacefully, during diwali time, while singing gandian bhajans).

To me, there is big leverage in buying big tubs with HARD-CASH in IR. Its a force-multiplier...thats why I think the Indian babus drag the negotiations (like hawk buying) over looong periods of time (makes democratically elected office-bearers of selling parties worry about end of terms).

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so what tahmed32 (re:209). If the indain govt wants to eat *hit will you do the same.

Set the pakistani house right first. Worry about the land of the pak before what those heathens and kaafirs across the border do.

You argument is if you eat that *hit I will also do it.

Waah, waaah. No wonder pakistan is in such dire straits.

rsridhar #168 I have no doubt that the philosophy of nonviolence will one day emerge victorious not just in india, but in pakistan too and indeed across the world. And this is not a ``feel good`` statement, but one based on the simple math of cost/benefits of violence: The costs are now potentially astronomical (annihilation) while the benefits of wars in the past accrued only to the kings, dictators and megalomaniacs who thereby secured their power. While kings and dictators are on their way out across world (and it will take some time before democracy is as well entrenched in Pakistan as it already is in India), we do have a problem with megalomaniacs in the form of ultranationalists. WHile I agree with you that India is not the same as BJP, the fact is that BJP is running the government - and BJP is not Vajpayee either - there clearly are megalomaniacs and pakistan-haters in the ranks of the BJP (led by Advani).

While you and I differ in our perceptions of Pakistan`s legitimate defense needs vis-a-vis India for the near future as the militarists in pakistan and the ultranationalists in india fade into history, the ultimate outcome is not in doubt: it is the vision of a peaceful and prosperous South Asia, at peace with itself and with the rest of the world.

jang #207 i have yet to receive a sensible argument against my contention that indian ambitions of having a deep sea navy is an indication that decisions in the indian government are made not on a realistic assessment of india`s defense needs, but upon unrealistic and egotistical ambitions of becoming the Great Power it can never be in this day and age. Just saying that it was discussed in the lok sabha is not an answer.

While our pakistani generals have much to answer for in terms of promoting militarism in South Asia, the Indian government is far from blameless.

The other argument i have heard is that this is meant against the Chinese, and that argument doesnt make any sense either. The only other ``argument`` I have heard is that it is none of my business to be commenting on Indian government actions. Ha! Ha! That reminds me that it obviously doesnt make sense to the Chinese, since if it did rest assured they would be rushing to establish their own deep sea navy. They certainly have far more resources for this purpose than the Indian government.

arjun #208 did you get your computer programs debugged yet??

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tahmed

``Did anyone ask that question before spending $1.5 billion to buy the new aircraft carrier?``

I am surprised at this even after several folks pointed this out. Defence budget gets discussed in parliament EVERY YEAR. What more do you want? A joint session with GHQ crore commanders (7 sages) and Arundhati?

So in short, you can have an opinion that its a waste of money, but your question has been answered.

I am worried about Urstruly and others in similar condition. What if the bums were never any good, and Gazi AQK turned out to be a plain cheat? Perhaps thats why libya and iran got pissed-off and pointed the fingers at islamabad out of a sense of betrayal. These folks will then have their world turned upside down, an we will likely see some more serious jihad.

Will the Gaddaffi stadium be renamed soon as Deng stadium or Colin Powell green?

ferozk #183

Only if most Pakistanis could see without `distorted perceptions,` as Iqbal Ahmed wrote in another article.

Once religion is mixed into issues of politics, pride, unity and honor, it becomes so hard for people to open their eyes. They become sitting ducks for people like echoboom, urstruly, romair, and hisshittness :(