The Nuclear Noose Around Pakistan’s Neck

#171 by hossp on February 3, 2004 10:11pm PT
Agreed! But it is not about comparing who is more corrupt- it is about not letting the WMD technology fall in the hands of the imbecile jehadis. Indians should take pride in not letting its army create the type of civilian and nuclear mess we have in Pakistan whose megalomaniac army Generals thump their chests before its scared civilians by displaying its fabricated nukes, clandestinely procured missiles and junked satellites in order to legitimize the usurpation of civilian power

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I am sure that a lot of Paki Army filth is going to come out in open.

Heathcliff #168,

Didn`t Pervez Hoodbhoy turn down some sort of a national honour in the last
couple of years ? Not the sort of thing one does to ingratiate oneself to the powers
in place, and definitely unlike what Khan has done.

``Dr. Khan built the nuclear infrastructure, from the ground up. He returned the
self-respect to a grateful nation. His service to his country is clear and convincing.``

Oh really - he built it from the ground up, eh ?

I am kind of surprised at our Indian friends self righteousness in general. AQ issue is also a corruption issue. Somebody took money to do something. Now India and Pakistan are equally corrupt countries. Are Indian scientists, Politicians and Army Generals more pious then Pakistanis? What if you dangle couple of billion US dollars in front of some Indian scientists, politicians and Generals? Would they refuse them?
Not so! We saw that in Tehelka dot com investigations. Indian Politicians and Army officers were bending over backward to take couple of hundred thousand Indian rupees.
The reality is that no proliferation has actually taken place. Though, the intent was very much there. In the end what we have is corruption and graft.

#170 by sadna on February 3, 2004 9:47pm PT

People in both countries behave the same way. When Tehelka issue came up all high ups in India were lying thru their teeth until confronted with video tapes. The Fernandez guy had to leave but came back in two months time. Whole Indian state machinary was used to put Tehelka dot com out of commision.

mohar11 #147
AQ Khan`s sorry posterior is being used to cover the collective sorry posteriors of the US government, the nonproliferation community and sorriest posteriors of all, the Pakistani Army brass.

Musharraf appears to have been consistently lying, as have US state department officials. `We have been assured 400% by Musharraf that nothing is happening, all that is in the past` was a Colin Powell statement several months ago when the N. Korea-Pakistan story broke, but according to this article, equipment was still being transferred to LIBYA as late as October. I guess Powell forgot to ask Musharraf `is anything happening to wrt Libya`.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/04/politics/04NUKE.html

One explanation for this across-the-board blatant dishonesty is that there is no bum and it was enriched uranium and machinery which was sold `as is where is` and this hoohaa is a US bluff to conceal the Chinese-Pakistani nuke connection and to save Pakistani Army H&D.

Maharana #162 Agreed that India too has shares with China a history of not being an aggressor nation. The reason I think in both cases is the same: these were among the oldest and largest civilizations on earth, and as such had nothing to gain by launching conquests. So their aim was to keep the barbarians at the gates the best they could.

Historically, conquerors have come from either (a) an economically backward people seeking to improve their situation or (b) from empire builders.

Today, economically backward people cant overrun civilizations anymore given the technological and military edge of civilized countries. The best they can do is terrorist attacks (which cause human misery but cannot overrun societies like the barbarians). And the age of the empire builders (in a territorial sense) is over. While the US is viewed with suspicion as being a modern day empire builder, I think Pax Americana is the accurate term that is applicable to the situation today. Most likely it will be replaced with a stronger UN role in maintaining peace a couple of decades from now.

And I have no doubt that the philosophy of non-violence (forgotten unfortunately in the land of its birth in india under BJP) will emerge as the most relevant idea for the future. Humanity just cant survive full scale wars anymore.

Re Mantolives #116:

Nah, I`d choose to prosecute under s. 295-C: less burden of proof and capital punishment :)

Rafay

fuzair #160 you are correct in your dismal assessment of Aslam Beg. While cinc i remember he misused the PAF cargo plane to carry his daughter`s friends from pindi to karachi for her wedding (this being reported in the newspapers at the time). It is interesting that the most ``islamic ummah`` type generals are also the most deceiptful (Hamid Gul being the other one). I am not surprised at that. I hope he gets his comeuppance this time around now that aqk has named him as being in charge when he was busy telling iranian mullahs how to make the bomb (not that iranians are capable of building too much anytime soon - but that is just my prejudice opinion).

Layman #161 No one can predict the future, but I just dont see China attacking anyone. The ``negative`` points you list about China are dont seem too egregious - what is wrong with China cultivating friends with Pakistan, Nepal etc.? I dont think there is any conspiracy here to build up an alliance against India - China is cultivating friends among all its neighbors (their president made a very significant visits to countries in south east asia and australia - and everywhere made himself as popular as any american president ever was visiting these countries).

I think the Chinese have been getting this bum rap of ``Yellow Peril`` for too long - after all, the same Victorians who talked darkly of the Yellow Peril in the 19th century were pushing opium into China at the same time to pay for the tea they bought. Time will tell, I agree.

It is plain as day. Pervez wishes he could attain the stature of Dr. A.Q. Khan in Pakistan instead of being regarded as a pariah in his country. The only way he has learned to ingratiate himself to the west is by taking up the job of mud-slinging Pakistan, for them.

Dr. Khan built the nuclear infrastructure, from the ground up. He returned the self-respect to a grateful nation. His service to his country is clear and convincing.

And what does Pervez have ?, a string of pak-bashing articles published in foreign papers. No wonder he`s bitter.

Fuzair:

``Beg is an exemplar of why ``haramzade mahajir`` is an oxymoron``

Post 160 does not make sense. If Beg is a twisted like a corkscrew, why would that make ``Haramzade Mohajir`` an oxymoron? His haramipan would actually prove the hypothesis, not make it an oxymoron. Unless I am misunderstaning the word oxymoron!!

Tahmed #156,

Butting in your interactions with rsridhar.

Every point you have made about China is equally applicable to India as well. Culturally and historically invasions and expansionists have always been from west of India-China. These two countries have never invaded each other and have maintained a healthy exchange of ideas between themselves throughout history.
Both of these nations are unique due to their cultural attitutde of being satisfied within themselves. Greeks, Romans,Turks, Arabs revere those leaders who sought to conquer the world and did so to some extent. In India Ashoka is revered due to renouncing the throne and his symbol of four lions still adorns the embelem of India.
I`ve always maintained on chowk, that India and China are unique and extremely similar by virtue of being the birthplace of non-violent and objectively secular spiritual philosophies. They have been invaded countless times, never been invaders themselves. the birth of communism in china has set an anamoly in the chinese culture. As long as this anamoly exists, there will be some friction between the two neighbours.
India is waiting perhaps to see the course US takes vis a vis itself and some other nations. They are strengthning ties with China, rightly so. US is the mai baap of the world but may prove to be problematic for nations who wish to carve out their own destiny too. Thats is where i see the ptractilaity of indian leadership in not jumping heads first in the lap of US.

Adios

I will never take away from Aslam Beg the fact that instead of appointing himself as Zias successor he allowed democracy to come back instead.
But dear Lord, his concept of `strategic defiance` - to say nothing of the timing with which he presented it - ranks up there with the `defence of the east being in the west` concept!

malik99 #144: You wrote:

Who gave this one un-elected man the right to determine the course of a nation of 140 million people? Who gave this man the right to make overnight decisions without even hinting on a national debate? What made this disgraced general of a proud and brave army to become more accountable to West than to his own people? What god given right this man has to turn over our people to foreign agencies?


and how is that different from other dictators who have ruled pakistan for most of its history??

Shamsul

Don`t know much about Musharraf personally but do know quite a bit about Mirza Aslam Beg. IF you think that Beg as President would be better than Musharraf, you don`t know enough to come in out of the rain.

Beg is an exemplar of why ``haramzade mahajir`` is an oxymoron; as twisted as a corkscrew. Remember the Mehran Bank affair? While Musharraf is also a mahajir, compared to Beg yeh bechaara bahut shareef aur seedha saadha hai.

From what I know about AQK, I can well believe him capable of selling ``his`` nuclear technology for whatever cash he can get. Combine Great Ego with Greater Arrogance and that is what you get.

tahmed32 #156:
I would like to disagree with you on China not being a threat to India. I see China as a non-democratic country ruled by people who do not respect their own people. Some of their economic success has come at the ruthless cost to its population. Its dictatorial one-child policy, control of the media and internet, not allowing dissent, all of these indicate a govt that does not respect human ideals or rights. Such a govt is a threat not only to its own people but to others too.

China is really a threat, because they are extremely patient and calm people (unlike Pakistanis!). Look at how they have been cultivating Pakistan for such a long time and also giving arms to separatist militants in our north-eastern states. They have also been cultivating Nepal and Bangladesh... Unlike Pakistan that thinks in the short term (refer to another article currently on Chowk) or India that at best thinks in the medium term, these guys think really long term!

One almost gets the feeling that they are building up their economy so that they can use it as a weapon. We have seen British and American empires so far - people who stand for great values in their own countries but have scr@wed the rest of thte world. The Chinese aren`t even good to their own people, imagine how terrible they can be to others.

In the immediate future, China may not take on India directly in a military sense (other than supporting our neighbours or separatists to keep India pinned down). It is concentrating on getting ahead in the economic sense, as this is the basis for social stability and military power. They have a head-start over India and are very committed. Let us see how this plays out.

Re: Veeresh #120

Yeah, #3 if we measure it in cockeyed PPP terms. So if a pound of daal costs $2.99 in the corner Indian store, we also price daal at Rs. 300+ per kilo in India? And if an average haircut in the US is $10, one in India must be valued at Rs. 500+!!! IF we make these kinds of conversions, then India is Number Three!

Come off it yaar! Skip PPP and realize that you will remain dirt, stinking poor and economically miniscule for a very long time. Console your self with the thought that you can still beat the *%#(%^ out of us economically and militarily!