The Nuclear Noose Around Pakistan’s Neck

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AlephNull and Fuzair

Have you guys considered writing in the mainstream media of India and Pakistan respectively. With the depth and breadth of your knowledge, you guys can do a far better job than overwhelming majority of undereducated journalists. I can say this with confidence after reading some of your posts for about a couple of years by now. And no I am not related to media. Where are Veeresh and Omar ?

Well-known Pakistani savants have repeatedly and adamantly maintained that India’s million-man army didn’t invade Pakistan largely because of Musharraf’s ‘brilliant move’ in referring to the nuclear option and carrying out a few tests of imported missiles.

In #182 I had questioned this explanation and indicated that Pakistani missile tests are mainly intended for domestic consumption (to preserve honour and dignity, reassure the awam that Pakistan is standing up to India’s evil hegemonic designs) and to get attention in the West. For instance, Pakistan last carried out a series of missile tests in October 2003, when there was no million-man army on Pakistan’s borders, but the Phalcon deal with Israel had just been approved over Pakistan’s vehement objections. Thus the missile tests are more likely to have been associated with some event that generated a severe feeling of insecurity or loss of H&D. No one saw fit to respond to #182.

Well, what do you know, folks: Million-man Indian army is all set to withdraw from Pakistan’s borders once again.

Pakistan to test new 2000 km range Shaheen-II missile within one month: Musharraf

Sadna #258

{{Myanmar and a number of SE Asian countries know quite well that they are no match for China`s overwhelming power. If anything they welcome any counterweight to China in the region.}}

I do know that India will be welcome as a counterweight as long as we don’t overplay our hand.

I am dubious about China’s overwhelming power, though. They are not quite there yet. China seems to have done some things much better than India, like removing illiteracy and providing primary health care. They may also of necessity have developed a solid if somewhat outdated indigenous technical capability in the best way possible, by building it from the ground up, learning from their mistakes. So they are not hollow inside, unlike some other countries. Their current military power is vastly over-rated – incidentally they were severely mauled by the courageous Vietnamese in 1978 and 1982. It is quite possible to stand up to them.

They are still shackled by Communist Party rule – they seem to have made a transition to what might be called market Stalinism. Their canonical political model is authoritarian – to my knowledge Taiwan is the first large-scale democratic polity in 3000 years of Chinese civilization. Proliferating nukes and missiles to the worlds most disreputable regimes is smart only up to a point – it is not a sign of a really secure and powerful nation.

IMO it is in India’s cold-blooded national interest that China be ruled by communists or authoritarian regimes for as long as possible. A democratic country with an educated population of 1.5 billion, a dynamic social order, a home-grown 3000-year old scholarly tradition, a strong work ethic, killer business instincts, ruthless pragmatism, not over-burdened by transcendental religion, would be unstoppable. India can get there as well if the obvious things are done.

Sadna #265 – am most flattered – I guess you already know what I think of your posts.

AlephNull #244
PS: My #258 was a comment made in general agreement with your posts, which are very comprehensive, blocking all escape routes for others illogic :).

Come on guys. GB is disgusting .... but so is Tahmed ...... Let them two p!gs wrestle in the mud. Just stand in a safe distance and enjoy the show.

#231 by chaltahai

One word - Myopia. In fact there is an article running in Chowk right now which is a fitting description of this age-old Pakistani affliction. Combine that with state-induced paranoia - you have got a heady hangover that pakis just refuse to grow out of.

I have been actively following paki opinions from message-boards and paki newspapers, for a few years now (starting after around kargil war ... I was just perplexed at the paki stupidity at that time). Pakis never fail to amaze me.

Chowk has seen many lively debates on entire gamut of Indo-Pak issues. Pakis have over-heated themselves to silliness ..... with their pet-theories and convoluted arguments and perverted assertions .... in the face of facts, established knowledge and plain simple logic.

And the end of the day - almost each of their assertions have proved to be false. Check - Attack on India in Kargil ... supporting Terrorism in Kashmir... Supporting Taliban in Afgan .... turning their country into haven for Islamic Fundametalism ....... you name it - pakis have done it ..... at the same time, they have been lying thru their teeth.

And now nuke proliferation. Indians have been yelling hoarse about this. And now that the truth is out - the world can see that this is exactly what we have been telling for so many years.

Now - another mor0n tahmed is going on and on about how China is a benign teddy bear and Hindu extremists are all that is bad in the world. Sooner or later this theory is also will prove to be false. Just like other such pet-theories peddled by paranoid pakis.

While we are on topic of China`s benign-ness - it would be worhtwhile to read the article by Kristof on NYtimes ( now in archive )

The chinese dictators have awlays sought a mantra to keep the teeming masses under control. In old days it used to be the little red book, communism, anti-capitalism. Now that they have discarded that dogma (for good) - they have taken up a new theme - nationalism. The new chinese kids are growing up steeped in ultra-nationalism, according to Kristof - just as their fathers were brought up with a overdose of faith in the red book.

Anti-americanism is growing fast - even though their bread-butter is coming from american dollar. After 9/11 - only people who are rejoicing ... apart from Arabs and wannabe-arabs.... are the chinese. Chinese message-boards are filled with messages like ``so cool!``.

A closed society and system like China can never be benign. If things donot work out domestically - chinese rulers could find it convenient to unleash the nationalist fervor -creating trouble for taiwan, US and Japan and possibly India.

While recognizing the fact that China is not itching for a fight right now - we should carefully monitor how chinese society shapes up in years to come.

the outrage to GB`s post is rather amusing...tahmad holds the champion`s trophy for writing the most disgusting post ever about another interactor`s mother...chowk had no objection to that...

Dear Chowk editors,

Is there a reason why Gujjubania`s post #243 was allowed to appear here ? Some
of us consider this piece of drivel to be beyond offensive.

Tahmed32 #254,

I found the hoopla preceding Kalam`s nomination to the Presidency to be irritating,
and he is definitely more of a technocrat than anything else. However, as others here
have pointed out, he had very little to do with the nuclear program per se. I also
detect a fundamental difference in the way Kalam and Khan are viewed in their
respective countries. I agree with you that the Kalam`s and the Khan`s are not our
true heroes; however, I suspect most of your countrymen would disagree with you.

The public admiration that Kalam enjoys seems tied more to the vision he espouses
than anything else. Also, there was elaborate political stunt-baazi involved in making
him the presidential nominee; I forget the details, but they are well archived in the
English language press. Basically, he is an apolitical man whom nobody really dislikes
- and he seems to genuinely care for the country.

#257 gujju

take is easy, go back to quoting your personal favourite, ppPee. I am sure tahmed will be intimidated, and never attack your country again.

AlephNull #244
``So the Indian strategic community sees Pakistan, like the Myanmarese regime as a pawn in China’s attempts to encircle India``

I remember a Burmese colleague describing a (then) Burma-China face off at their borders. He said it didnot matter how hard the Burmese fought and how many Chinese soldiers they killed. They were so overwhelmingly outnumbered by the Chinese that all the Chinese had to do to invade the country was simply walk over the border.

From what he said, Myanmar and a number of SE Asian countries know quite well that they are no match for China`s overwhelming power. If anything they welcome any counterweight to China in the region.

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Arre Tahmed bhai, hum kitni baar samjhayen aapko ki kalam ``bomb maker`` nahin hai.

If you read Kalam`s views you will know why Indians hold him in high esteem. It is not for his missile making abilities.

#254
``Ever wonder what India achieved by making the bomb``

Ahmed bhai, as I have explained before, my problem is not with this. Yes several valid arguments could be made about how much India has lost going down the nuclear path. At the very least the vast amount of money (for a very poor country) that Bhabha and Nehru spent on BARC in the 50`s and 60`s.

But to adequately discuss these issues you should attempt to sperate them from the pure untruths and paranoia:

``The Pokhran site was selected to intimidate Pakistan``
``Abdul Kalam was India`s bomb-maker-in-chief``
``Indian jingoism was because they believed Pakistan didnt have the bomb``

Post #234 represents a real low in your otherwise illustrious chowk career :-) (if I may say so)

Though only rshridhar may say it, please be assured that a vast majority of participants here consider GB`s assaults on you with disgust and revulsion.

rsridhar/alephnull/jay/fountainheader: Since this issue seems to have sparked a million man response (just kidding), rather than responding to each individual post, i have tried below to summarize my take on what you are saying - where i agree, and where we differ. Thanks all for writing.

And thanks in particular to rsridhar for speaking up to gb regarding the latter`s personal insults directed towards me: it is indeed on chowk we demonstrate our true colors and our upbringing, given that the only thing guiding our behavior here is our own character and personality. And regardless of our differing points of view at times on some issues, it remains an honor to communicate with a gentleman like rsridhar.

Coming to the issues, I think we have the following:

a. Kalam vs Qadeer: I cannot take any issue here. Qadeer has engaged in nuclear proliferation and Kalam has not. Contrary to jay`s contention, Qadeer is far from being a ``hero`` in my eyes - see my earlier posts on this. By engaging in nuclear proliferation in his persuit of personal wealth, Qadeer has (a) jeopardized pakistan`s defense, and (b) made the world a more dangerous place, given that islamist terrorists could cause widespread damage in any city in any country in the world if they got hold of nukes. As a Pakistani, I reject Qadeer`s apology to the nation - UNLESS he is prepared to put his money where his mouth is by returning his ill-gotten gains to the nation, and by submitting to a court process whereby he is tried and convicted and punished for any and all pakistani laws (e.g. taking kickbacks) he may have violated.

I should add that Qadeer`s actions are not representative of the many patriotic pakistani nuclear scientists: I know one individual, e.g., who went a step beyond Kalam - he actually refused to lead the Pakistani nuclear bomb project when asked by ZAB, and did so on moral grounds. ZAB as prime minister had an hour long meeting with him, and the scientist (who had worked at the US nuclear labs at Oak Ridge Tennessee, home of the original nukes built by the US) told him that his education was for the benefit of man. And despite having turned down the offer, the man remained a respected member of the pakistani scientific community, dedicating himself to improving agriculture in pakistan. These are the true heroes of our age, certainly not the Qadeer`s and not - with all due respect - bomb makers like Kalam either.

Ever wonder why India is the only country in the world to elevate a bomb maker to president?? Ever wonder what India achieved by making the bomb?? (These questions may annoy my indian friends, but you may wish to reflect upon this at some point, and will realize that pakistanis are not the only ones misled by their leaders).

This is a long post on one issue only. Will try to get back to others later. Regards.