The Nuclear Noose Around Pakistan’s Neck

fountainheader #279 thanks for an informative and well-reasoned post. here is my response:

a. On aircraft carriers: You say ``China has no choice because it does not have the technology yet to build aircraft carriers, and USA does not let anyone sell that to them.`` I am not too sure of that since (a) I dont think there is any explicit US ban on sales of weaponry to China, and (b) there is no reason why the russians would sell to the indians and not to the chinese. Indeed, the chinese navy today has more ships, I understand, than the US Navy does - but these are focussed on coastal defense.
There is no doubt that as China casts a longer economic shadow (as it rapidly is, with even Australia and the far east becoming sources of raw materials for China`s expanding manufacturing capacity), China will switch from its navy from ``green water`` to ``blue water``. However, it does seem to me that China is being much more realistic than India is. By focussing resources on coastal defense, it gets a bigger bang for its buck, and the chinese navy has more ships than the US navy.

As for Vikrant, the only possible use it could have been in 1971 would have been against the US seventh fleet. Sending the PNS ghazi (about which Fuzair I notice has written an interesting post further down on this board) seemed as purposeless a mission (to my mind) on the part of the pakistan navy as was investment in the vikrant itself on the part of the indians.

2. On buddha`s view: you quote the following from buddha ``Buddha sighed that perfect peace would never come until all the nations of the earth were equally mighty. ``

I beg to differ (with all due respect to buddha, whom I consider to be among the worlds greatest men, and who had the same profound idea of nonviolence that Gandhi promoted). When all nations are equally mighty, they create conditions for a terrible war.

As examples of what I mean: (a) witness what happened in WWI which was the result of Germany trying to become ``equally mighty`` as britain; (b) Witness WWII: when the Germans and Japanese became militarily even mightier than the US and UK were on the eve of the war. It took only a couple of wrong steps (the attack on Poland) to trigger this disastrous war; (c) the Cold War, when the americans and russians were fighting proxy wars across the globe for almost half a century, and brought the world on the brink of nuclear disaster at least once in 1962.
I would restate Buddha to say: When nations stop stop competing and start cooperating, they create conditions for a lasting peace.

If the above sounds like a dream, it is not: (a) Japan and Germany have learnt this lesson the hard way, and are now most ardently opposed to militarism. (b) the United Nations and other international agencies are examples of nations cooperating. And this cooperation is bound to grow, since they fit the structure of the emerging global economy much better than the 19th centry mold.

3. On Kalam vs. Qadeer: Thanks for correcting me on Kalam (his specialty is missiles, as you say and as i think rsridhar also pointed out earlier, and not nuclear bombs). And the quotes you provide certainly are from a positive and insightful thinker.

While the above certainly presents Kalam in a more positive light than my summary characterization of his being a bomb maker. However, if you see the points I am making in my earlier post, they are slightly different: After all, missiles and bombs are both part of the same broader tendancy towards aggressive militarizatin (as is the aircraft carrier) that I point to when I say that pakistan needs to keep its guard. I will in due course read up the links on Kalam you provided, and no doubt the positive impression you provide will be reinforced.

On your other points, please try to see things the way they look from across the border: someone pointed out that the rajasthan desert is the only viable location for india to test nuclear bombs. I realize that. However, that should have been all the more reason for India to assure Pakistan that these tests were being conducted not as a threat to Pakistan. Instead, the Indian government followed up those tests with direct threats to Pakistan concerning the ``changed military situation`` as Advani put it. That has to be the dumbest thing I can think of, and no doubt tilted the balance in Pakistan and resulted in the Chagai response (it is no secret that Nawaz Sharif was under tremendous pressure from within the country to respond to the Indian nukes, and from tremendous pressure from the US - including direct phone calls from Clinton to Sharif - to take the ``high road`` and not respond in kind). The fact that Advani, far from being disgraced removed from power (as would have happened in the US in a similar situation) for his dumb behavior after pokharan, remains the number two man in India.

The spirit of Gandhi will never die, and will one day no doubt emerge triumphant in South Asia, not just in India but in Pakistan as well. Till that happens, I hope you will understand why, when seen from a pakistani perspective, we need to keep our guard up.

TO OTHER POSTERS: Sorry for not responding. Will try to respond to at least some posts. But thanks to rsridhar and bongdongs for well reasoned posts, and hopefully the above responds to some points you make as well. Thanks YLH for your words of support. As for the trash and idiotic statements that gj tosses around dont bother me - i dont claim to be a saint, and indeed could outdo him on this if i wanted to.

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For secular [ read pagan:KUFFAAR] HoodlumsBhoy and his bleaters.
(gay no longer means joy--secular no longer means mere temporal: I`ll never be 1984-ed again)

They ARE coming. They WILL ask you : ``are you with us or with `them`?. Time to accelerate arse-licking of your masters O Hoody DUMBO.

---

This is to remind the ignorant-ones still leeching on to colonised mindset. The ones who were unfortunate not to get a madressa learning.

Distribute to muslims especially the near-muslims, afar-muslims, and anti-muslims.

Hand-delivered to President Chirac of France.


An Open letter from Hizb ut-Tahrir to President Chirac, President of the Republic of France

uploaded 08 Jan 2004



بِسْمِ اللهِ الرَّحْمنِ الرَّحِيمِِ
An Open letter from Hizb ut-Tahrir to President Chirac, President of the Republic of France

Monsieur le President,

We were hesitant to write this letter and there were two reasons for this hesitance:

Firstly; we do not represent a State. We are a political party whose ideology is Islam working for the resumption of the Islamic way of life by establishing the Islamic State, the Rightly guided Khilafah State in the Muslim lands. Since we do not represent a State we felt that you might find it inappropriate that a party writes to you rather than a state writing to a major power such as France.

Secondly; we do not write to any ruler who we believe will not accept the demands of our letter. We heard your speech on 17th December 2003 regarding the wearing of the Hijaab by Muslim women in France. We heard you say explicitly that France adopts secularism as a system and ideology and that you will not allow any religious symbolism in your institutions. We also heard you say explicitly that the Hijaab, i.e. the headscarf worn by Muslim women, is a religious symbol like wearing a cross and other such symbols, whereas in Islam the headscarf for a woman is considered a divine obligation like prayer and fasting. Thus, we understood from your speech that this matter has been decided by you and that you will not reconsider your recommendation to pass a law banning the Hijaab. Consequently, had we written to you there would have been little chance of you accepting our request.

In consideration of two points we decided to write to you:

Firstly: 480 years ago in the sixteenth century, we, the Muslims, undertook an act of goodwill towards France.

Secondly: Historically, France has a tradition of chivalry and reciprocating acts of goodwill.

It is our expectation in writing this letter, that the France of today will reciprocate the act of goodwill undertaken towards the France of yesterday. The French king Francis I was captured at the battle of Pavia in 1525. France felt humiliated by the capture of her king but her army was unable to rescue him from captivity. She made recourse to the Islamic Khilafah state, under the Ottomans, at that time, and she sent a messenger on behalf of the king of France on 6th December 1525 seeking help from the Islamic State. The messenger met the Ottoman Caliph Sulayman al-Qanooni who responded to his call. Sulayman gave the messenger a letter which read: “…we have received the letter delivered by your messenger, and in which you stated that your enemy has attacked your country and you are imprisoned and seek our help in respect to securing your release. We have answered your request so be at ease and do not worry…” This is how Sulayman responded. The Khilafah state used its international weight and military power to rescue the king of France and made an effective contribution towards his release.

The Caliph of the Muslims helped France without compensation, without occupying a part of France or colonising any region of France in return. Rather he did the action as an act of goodwill. Furthermore, the Treaty of Constantinople that was concluded in 1536 between the Caliph of the Muslims, Sultan Sulayman al-Qanooni and the king of France, Francis I, granted France concessions in the Islamic State which were granted to no other state.

Monsieur le President,

This is the act of goodwill that our State, the Islamic State, the Ottoman Khilafah State, undertook for the France of yesterday. Will the France of today reciprocate this act of goodwill to the Muslims and annul the decision to ban the wearing of the Hijaab by Muslim women in France?

We will wait and see - if France today reciprocates this act of goodwill then this will be a good gesture towards the Islamic Khilafah state when we re-establish it by Allah’s leave.

Kindly accept our greetings.

Hizb ut-Tahrir
9 Dhul Qa’dah 1424 AH

National Duty!

Gujjubania`s national duty is to bash Pakistan and to prove to us stupid Pakis how great India is.

Dear tahmed,

You may have point there about India`s attempt to fashion itself as a great world power in the mould of the 19th century colonialists.

There is a book that is being launched at a Gala event in New Dehli this thursday ... it is called ` Writing on the wall: India checkmates the US 2017`... it is by the now retired Indian Army chief, and the chief guest is none other than George Fernandes.

It talks about using the NRIs as a fifth column, Cyber warfare, and India`s ability to bring down the US by 2017. Surprisingly the General is in favor of better ties with Pakistan so that US doesn`t use Pakistan against India.

What is really disturbing is that many amongst the Islamic parties in Pakistan are indulging in fantasy of better ties with India so that they could put up a United front against the `evil` US.

-YLH

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tahmed

Let me start off by saying that in the short period that I have been a part of chowk, you have been among my favourite posters. Which is why I share Bongdong`s feelings on your interactions on this thread. Now going point by point

a) You said even China is not going in for a blue sea navy, why is India wasting its money? Alephnull and I said, that China has no choice because it does not have the technology yet to build aircraft carriers, and USA does not let anyone sell that to them. You asked me if I was just guessing that USA had blocked the sale of an aircraft carrier to China. I provided a link which gave details of two deals that USA scuttled, one being the purchase from Ukraine.

b)You have said that india has gained nothing by buying Vikrant or by going nuclear.
-About Vikrant, I have already posted info. Firstly, Pakistan thought it was important enough to destroy it in 1971, so important that the Ghazi, instead of protecting the waters around Dhaka, was lured to Vizag, just so it could sink the Vikrant. they knew what a major asset Vikrant be for India for blockading east pakistan and carrying out raids. Ghazi was finally sunk while in hunt for Vikrant. After that, as is widely documented, it was Vikrant that served as the base for the attacks from the sea-side on Dhaka. Despite this, you keep claiming that the Vikrant was a waste of money.
- Going nuclear. Okay, it prompted Pakistan to go nuclear and thus create a deterrant. however a look at those times will show that Pakistan was not really a cause of concern for India. India started developing its nuclear program in the 60s. Now consider this. In 1962, we had been in a war with China over issues, that were still unresolved after ceasefire(they still are unresolved). In 1968, China went Nuclear. Was it not the logical step to go nuclear as well? I have already said that Pakistan was justified in going nuclear in response to India, just after a war. That you accept. But when I say that india was justified in going nuclear because a country with whom it had been in a war, and with issues pending, just 6 years back,went nuclear. You scoff at it, and ask what we have ``achieved`` by going nuclear. We have achieved, sir, what is called a deterrent.

You have said on another thread that Buddhism is as good as Islam. Let me recount you a story from Buddha`s life to show my point -

Five centuries before the Christian era the powerful and
ambitious Ajatasatru attacked the Licchavi confederacy led by
Vaisali. Hearing of this conflict between his Magadhan disciples
and his Sakya kinsmen, the Buddha sighed that perfect peace would
never come until all the nations of the earth were equally
mighty.

Someone - probably Dr Raja Ramanna -remembered the tale twenty-
five centuries later, in 1974. The famous coded message, `The
Buddha is smiling, wasn chosen at random. It referred to the
fact that Sakyamuni`s motherland had reached a parity of sorts
with the mightiest nations.

This is an excerpt from an article by TVR Shenoy in the Indian Express.

So if you want to go ask what was achieved by going nuclear, ask the question to the ghost of Albert Einstein. Ask it to the Americans. The moment they set up Project Manhattan, every nation in the world, from Russia to Rhodesia, gained legitimate right to build nuclear weapons too. Almost all countries that have gone nuclear have done so with the intention of having deterrence. Russia, China, India, and yes, even Pakistan. It is America that kept talking of a right to first nuclear strike if the Russkies attacked with conventional military . Even now, it is America that talks of using ``small`` nuclear weapons in the battlefield. Even after the attack on Iraq, you don`t see what nuclear weapons can achieve? North Korea is not being attacked because it has nukes that will blow Korea, Japan and Taiwan to smithereens if USA does something.

If USA is so interested in a nuclear free world, why does it not come out with a treaty that destroys ALL nukes? Why stop proliferation? That is like institutionalising monopoly.

c) Time and again we are telling you that Kalam is an aeronautical scientist, and time and again you call him ``bomb-maker`` or ``father of the bomb``. By hyphenating Kalam with AQK, you are committing a severe judgemental error. Thinking that Kalam is better than Qadeer Khan only because he didnt sell secrets to rogue states, is oversimplifying it. Even if Qadeer Khan had kept the secrets to himself, one would still rate Kalam several notches higher. the man is a gem. And he is not a ``hero`` in the jingoistic way. He does not go around yelling ``I made Agni for India. If I wasnt there, Agni wouldnt be there``. His simplicity, his erudition, his humility, and his vision are what make him popular. Read his books - ``Wings of Fire`` and ``India 2020``. He has plans. Do you know that he utilised materials used in missiles to develop prosthetic limbs?

Have you read speeches by Indian and Pakistan.....or even Western head of states on occasions like I-Day or R-Day or National-Day? They are so full of rehtoric and bullshit. The same ``agreebi hatani chahiye`` crap. Have you read kalam`s speeches? Amazing!!

You will find his speeches at this site - India Vision

An excerpt from his latest speech, delivered 10 days ago -

Agriculture and Agro food processing

With farmers in focus, farming technology as their friend, and food processing and marketing as partners is indeed the second green revolution. From now on to 2020, India would have to gradually increase the production to around 400 million tones per annum. The increase in the production will have to be done under the reduced availability of land from 170 million hectares to 100 million hectares with reduced water availability using technological inputs.

Pharmaceuticals

Institutions of Pharmaceutical sciences and Pharma industries need to evolve an integrated and comprehensive National Pharma Vision to meet the challenges of design to drug development, production and marketing. The major challenge before the Pharma community is to prevent the entry of spurious drugs and eradicate it’s presence in the market.

Space

With our self-reliance in our Space programme it is time we should enter into the global market aggressively. The exploration of the moon through `Chandrayaan` and keeping our sight on the Mars will electrify the entire country, particularly young scientists and children.

Defence

Modernization of our armed forces with force multipliers is indeed progressing to meet the national security needs. Defence technology has led to the development of long range missile systems and supersonic cruise missile, Light Combat Aircraft, Electronic warfare systems, radars, under-water sensors, combat vehicles and armaments. The Indo-Russian joint venture programme - BRAHMOS is one of the leading examples of development, production and marketing of state-of-the-art missile system.

Energy

Our power generation capacity of hundred thousand megawatt has to be tripled by the year 2020. In addition to the power generation from the conventional sources we need to enhance the power generation capacity through non-conventional energy sources to attain power security. Also the present nuclear capacity of 2700 Megawatts should be enhanced to more than 20,000 Megawatts by 2020. Desalination plants can be co-located with the future nuclear power plants for converting sea-water to drinking water. We need to establish large solar farms of 800 to 1000 Megawatts capacity in many areas to augment the energy requirements.

S&T Growth

Every academic institution and R&D Organisation is a reservoir of knowledge. Technology will also spin off to societal products, which are cost effective, high-quality and available to the people in time. Thrust is required in Nano science and biotechnology to achieve leadership in these areas in the coming decade. The scientists and technologists must undertake a health mission ``Let my brain remove the pain``. The scientific community must realize that the competitiveness can come only by integrated mission driven programmes partnered by academy, R&D organisation and industry.

Civic Awareness

The status of environmental cleanliness is one of the indicators of development of a nation. As a nation, we have to keep our environment clean and tidy. This is essential for better health conditions of all the citizens and also for presenting a wholesome and aesthetic atmosphere for us and also the tourists visiting our country. It is essential that we keep all our places of worship and rivers clean and tidy to preserve their innate divinity. Each one of the States may promulgate appropriate local laws for promoting harmonious environment in their regions.


Now if this is not mind-blowing, I dont know what is. If more politicians gave such speeches, maybe the yawns associated with speeches would never arise.

I was chatting with a pakistani friend of mine (a chowki, by the way) and even she was admiring Kalam, having just read her book.

Tahmedjee, I think of you as a person with no malice, and not-more-than-usual prejudices. I urge you to read more about Kalam before just dismissing him as a ``bomb maker``. Tomes have been written on what india has gained by making him the President. People across all ideological spectra agree that kalam is the best President we have had.

In fact this topic deserves a separate story. Maybe I will write a story for chowk when my placements get over, about how Kalam has been the best President of our country.

d) People like Gujjubania should seriously be kicked out. Yes, our economy is huge and growing healthily, but by quoting PPP figures every 2 hours, he only displays his pathetic grasp of economics. This is a 17 year old kid who has not even cleared HSC yet. And he has already started giving advice on the use of vibrators? Isko leke jao rey!!

tahmedjee, i would like you to kindly point out which of my aforementioned points are ``emotional``.

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poor mr. musharraf......

Aleph Null and Fuzair:

I second Pankaj. Your posts are genuinely a pleasure to read.

re:#257 by gujjubania
If your exams are so near, shouldn`t you be studying hard instead of jerking off in front of your computer?
Don`t bother to answer. I know the answer already.
Sridhar

re:#254 by tahmed32
Dear Sir,
You are calling a ``missile maker`` a ``bomb maker``. At least you should get his profession right.
Pun aside, i think Abdul Kalam is a much respected man. He has a cult following among the young generation of Indians. Strangely enough, most of those young people happen to be hindus.
Muslim clergy and other prominent muslims have not celebrated his elevation. May be they do not see in him what they see in say Osama Bin Laden. Latter seem to excite the muslims much more than Abdul Kalam who is also a muslim but in a different mold. He can quote both Qoran and Gita, is known to be well versed in music, philosophy and is a poet on top of being excellent in what he does: organizing a team of scientists and motivating them to achieve a goal. That is how those missiles were built: one step at a time. The guy has simple habits and high ideals and is an inspiration not just to younger geneation of Indians but even to someone like me sitting many thousand miles away.
Why was he elevated to the job of president? May be BJP had some ulterior motives. I am not aware. But he has not done anything to benefit the BJP as a president. I just think he is much misunderstood among the muslims of Pakistan and perhaps even India.
Sridhar

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re: Abdul Kalam`s vision

http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=326417


``Kalam’s mouse bridges great divide
President’s PowerPoint plan for rural areas is PURA perfect
EXPRESS NEWS SERVICE


NEW DELHI, FEBRUARY 5: Two incidents, President A P J Abdul Kalam told a gathering here today, make 1998 a remarkable year for India: The operationalisation of Agni, and the five consecutive nuclear tests at Pokhran. He was not, as could be assumed, addressing defence experts, but scientists and experts attending the Food Security Summit organised by the M S Swaminathan Research Foundation.

Both 1998 developments, the President said in his speech, owed much to India’s ability to overcome international sanctions based on sufficient food stocks and excellent production capacities.

In his hour-long PowerPoint presentation, Kalam said the same ‘can-do’ spirit was the guiding force of his food security plans — PURA (Providing Urban Amenities for Rural Areas) in Action — for rural India.


Part of the President’s 2020 Vision, the PURA urban-rural bridge plan received Cabinet approval on January 20. It is proposed to be implemented in 4,130 rural clusters in the next five years, with priority going to the North-Eastern states, other special category states and backward areas.

The plan envisages four kinds of connectivity — physical, electronic, knowledge-based and economic — all of which will contribute towards making India hunger-free by 2007. The buzzwords in this business enterprise with global dimensions: tele-education, tele-medicine and e-governance.

The PURA entrepreneur, according to the plan, will work with banks to evolve business plans and create infrastructural support for a particular rural conglomerate. Such conglomerates will be graded into four clusters: While Type A will cover settlements close an urban area with minimal road connectivity, infrastructure and educational and medical support, Type C will include the far interiors, with no connectivity or basic amenities.

Clear that each type of cluster will call for different interventions and management skills, Kalam suggested preparing small and medium industrialists — already experienced in managing their enterprises — for leadership of the PURA complexes, including schools, vocational training centres, chilling plants, silos, markets, banking and regional businesses.

While urging leading industrial houses to immediately identify and adopt PURA complexes in their areas, Kalam said the effort would require partnerships with banks, educational institutions, the government and private entrepreneurs.

Each PURA cluster is estimated to cost the government Rs 100-200 crore — sourced partly from Ministry of Rural Development funds — though NRIs, NGOs and corporates are also expected to pitch in.

The actual implementation, Kalam said, could be supervised by an apex body chaired by top management experts. This body will provide the policy guidelines for the entire PURA scheme, while five PURA corporations will oversee regional operations under chairmen.

After initial short-term employment, each PURA it will plan for providing employment opportunity to 3,000 people. The prosperity index of PURA will be governed by contributions to GDP, increase in income level and reduction in illiteracy. This will go a long way in availability of food at affordable prices and liveable habitat, said Kalam.``
Sridhar

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