Oh Myopia, Thy Name is Pakistan
Iqbal Mustafa February 3, 2004
#92 Posted by arjun_m on February 7, 2004 2:50:57 pm
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#91 Posted by arjun_m on February 7, 2004 2:50:57 pm
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#90 Posted by jay on February 7, 2004 7:15:46 am
I told you so,
In the present times when the credibility of CIA and MI5 are at stake the stellar achievements of Indian intelligence agencies have been little recognised. The findings of the CIA has been discredited by the absence of even a single WMD in Iraq while the machinations of the political masters in the US has lost them credibility and portrayed them as congenital liars.
In all the tamasha of Dr Khans apology and the presidential pardon on que from the teleprompter, the incontrovertible evidence from the indian RAW has received little mention and media attention. India has maintained all along that the missiles of Pakistan are simply a barter for the bomb and Pakistan had been consistently spreading the Islamic bomb. They even cited specific flights from Pakistan carrying the bomb material, only now to be confirmed by the ring leader.
Same is true with the role of Pakistan in Kashmir violence. The Indian data that Pak army is providing cover for the infiltrators has been well proven by the reduced killings in Kashmir. The violence has tapered of and will reduce dramatically in the coming months as those already in India are progressively liquidated.
India can duly claim that RAW is not simply an organ of Indian intelligence, but an organization of Intelligent Indians.
In the present times when the credibility of CIA and MI5 are at stake the stellar achievements of Indian intelligence agencies have been little recognised. The findings of the CIA has been discredited by the absence of even a single WMD in Iraq while the machinations of the political masters in the US has lost them credibility and portrayed them as congenital liars.
In all the tamasha of Dr Khans apology and the presidential pardon on que from the teleprompter, the incontrovertible evidence from the indian RAW has received little mention and media attention. India has maintained all along that the missiles of Pakistan are simply a barter for the bomb and Pakistan had been consistently spreading the Islamic bomb. They even cited specific flights from Pakistan carrying the bomb material, only now to be confirmed by the ring leader.
Same is true with the role of Pakistan in Kashmir violence. The Indian data that Pak army is providing cover for the infiltrators has been well proven by the reduced killings in Kashmir. The violence has tapered of and will reduce dramatically in the coming months as those already in India are progressively liquidated.
India can duly claim that RAW is not simply an organ of Indian intelligence, but an organization of Intelligent Indians.
#89 Posted by jay on February 7, 2004 7:15:46 am
foundations of kargill invasion,
Kargill invasion is simply the outcome of the stupidity of the fools in delhi, went into a coma after listening to the urdu shairy in Lahore after the bus journey, lulled into sleep by the talks of the stukas and dost mitters about the common heritage.
Never had lessons in TNT, never cared to take note of the fact that mushy was planning the invasion. Kargill invasion is a political failure of indian leadership, agra summit corrected it a little, but still cannot accept the global reality that thyere can be no peace in a jihadic frontier.
Kargill invasion is simply the outcome of the stupidity of the fools in delhi, went into a coma after listening to the urdu shairy in Lahore after the bus journey, lulled into sleep by the talks of the stukas and dost mitters about the common heritage.
Never had lessons in TNT, never cared to take note of the fact that mushy was planning the invasion. Kargill invasion is a political failure of indian leadership, agra summit corrected it a little, but still cannot accept the global reality that thyere can be no peace in a jihadic frontier.
#88 Posted by ironman on February 7, 2004 7:15:30 am
bongdongs #83,85
Good posts sir. But you missed romair`s point.
Romairs original post (like a lot of his posts) is a `nyah-nyah-na-na-na`.
He`s basically saying `we pakis made you spend a whole lot of money that you could have saved...so heh heh, we won`!
- - - - -
Yes, I rememeber reading 150 pak soldiers attained shahadat early in the morning at mantho dhalo by several bombing runs by the IAF.
Also, hundreds of stingers were fired uselessly by the pakis. Perhaps romairs google searches haven`t shown him the fact that shoulder fired missiles are **completely ineffective** at close range. A mach 3 missile needs a lot of space to twist and turn.
Couple of other things about our `air` marshall:
. He assured us in 1999 (during kargil) that the intruders were NOT pak soldiers...how? ...from his `close acquaintances` in the army!!
. He wrote ultra long posts after the atlantique was shot down cursing the indians for `violating the international boundary` !!!
Pakistan, he said, should seek justice at the international court (ha ha!)
Overall he`s good entertainment !
Good posts sir. But you missed romair`s point.
Romairs original post (like a lot of his posts) is a `nyah-nyah-na-na-na`.
He`s basically saying `we pakis made you spend a whole lot of money that you could have saved...so heh heh, we won`!
- - - - -
Yes, I rememeber reading 150 pak soldiers attained shahadat early in the morning at mantho dhalo by several bombing runs by the IAF.
Also, hundreds of stingers were fired uselessly by the pakis. Perhaps romairs google searches haven`t shown him the fact that shoulder fired missiles are **completely ineffective** at close range. A mach 3 missile needs a lot of space to twist and turn.
Couple of other things about our `air` marshall:
. He assured us in 1999 (during kargil) that the intruders were NOT pak soldiers...how? ...from his `close acquaintances` in the army!!
. He wrote ultra long posts after the atlantique was shot down cursing the indians for `violating the international boundary` !!!
Pakistan, he said, should seek justice at the international court (ha ha!)
Overall he`s good entertainment !
#87 Posted by M.B.Z.Isphahani on February 7, 2004 12:59:36 am
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#85 Posted by bongdongs on February 6, 2004 11:51:26 pm
Excerpts from Transcript of conversation betwen Musharraf and Lt Gen (then) Aziz Khan
Second Conversation on May 29, 1999
(Pakistan end) Lt Gen Aziz: This is Pakistan. Give me room No. 83315 (same room number). Hello?
(China end) Gen Musharraf: Hello Aziz.
Lt Gen Aziz: The situation on ground is OK, no change, this area but it is not brought down by attack. One of their MI-17 arms (?) was brought down. Further, the position is, we had approached to our position, it was brought down. Rest is OK. Nothing else except, there is a development. Have you listened to yesterday?s news regarding Mian Saheb speaking to his counterpart. He told him that the spirit of Lahore Declaration and escalation has been done by your people. Specially wanted to speak to me thereafter. He told Indian PM that they should have waited instead of upping the ante by using Air Force and all other means. He (Nawaz) told him (Indian PM) that he suggested Sartaj Aziz could go to New Delhi to explore the possibility of defusing the tension.
Gen Musharraf: OK.
...
Gen Musharraf: Has this MI-17 not fallen in our area?
Lt Gen Aziz: No Sir. This has fallen in their area. We have not claimed it. We have got it claimed through the mujahideen.
Gen Musharraf: Well done.
Lt Gen Aziz: But topwise side, crashing straight before our eyes.
Gen Musharraf: Very good. Now are they facing any greater difficulty in flying them? Are they scared or not? This also you should note. Are they coming any less nearer?
Lt Gen Aziz: Yes. There is a lot of pressure on them. They were talking about greater air defence than they had anticipated. They can?t afford to lose any more aircraft. There has been less intensity of air flying after that.
...
Second Conversation on May 29, 1999
(Pakistan end) Lt Gen Aziz: This is Pakistan. Give me room No. 83315 (same room number). Hello?
(China end) Gen Musharraf: Hello Aziz.
Lt Gen Aziz: The situation on ground is OK, no change, this area but it is not brought down by attack. One of their MI-17 arms (?) was brought down. Further, the position is, we had approached to our position, it was brought down. Rest is OK. Nothing else except, there is a development. Have you listened to yesterday?s news regarding Mian Saheb speaking to his counterpart. He told him that the spirit of Lahore Declaration and escalation has been done by your people. Specially wanted to speak to me thereafter. He told Indian PM that they should have waited instead of upping the ante by using Air Force and all other means. He (Nawaz) told him (Indian PM) that he suggested Sartaj Aziz could go to New Delhi to explore the possibility of defusing the tension.
Gen Musharraf: OK.
...
Gen Musharraf: Has this MI-17 not fallen in our area?
Lt Gen Aziz: No Sir. This has fallen in their area. We have not claimed it. We have got it claimed through the mujahideen.
Gen Musharraf: Well done.
Lt Gen Aziz: But topwise side, crashing straight before our eyes.
Gen Musharraf: Very good. Now are they facing any greater difficulty in flying them? Are they scared or not? This also you should note. Are they coming any less nearer?
Lt Gen Aziz: Yes. There is a lot of pressure on them. They were talking about greater air defence than they had anticipated. They can?t afford to lose any more aircraft. There has been less intensity of air flying after that.
...
#84 Posted by tvarad on February 6, 2004 11:39:18 pm
Nice article.
One other observation. Most calls for a separate identity in a multi-cultural society are made when there is actual discrimination and active subjugation. Both conditions did not exist in pre-partition India vis-a-vis the Muslim community and so Jinnah invented it and got a country based on that fallacy.
As I see Indian Muslims go about their business in my day-to-day life - beggars, street-hawkers, shop-owners, executives, politicians, CEOs and owners of multi-million dollar companies and the like, I cannot help but feel that it was their soul that was ripped out by Jinnah for his ideological gain. His successors then sold that soul to anyone like a prostitute in a brothel.
What a tragic fate for one of the most sublime cultures of the world.
One other observation. Most calls for a separate identity in a multi-cultural society are made when there is actual discrimination and active subjugation. Both conditions did not exist in pre-partition India vis-a-vis the Muslim community and so Jinnah invented it and got a country based on that fallacy.
As I see Indian Muslims go about their business in my day-to-day life - beggars, street-hawkers, shop-owners, executives, politicians, CEOs and owners of multi-million dollar companies and the like, I cannot help but feel that it was their soul that was ripped out by Jinnah for his ideological gain. His successors then sold that soul to anyone like a prostitute in a brothel.
What a tragic fate for one of the most sublime cultures of the world.
#83 Posted by bongdongs on February 6, 2004 10:48:51 pm
#ROmair 73
Absolutely right on the Intelligence. As Napoleon said ``A spy in the right place is worth a thousand men in the field``. And as the americans are discovering there is no alternative to humint. Better SAR (Synthetic Aperture Radar) equipped survillence aircraft is another investment India must make.
I am not sure I understand the distinction you make between by offensive v/s defensive weaponary. Pakistani doctrine has long been one of ``reposite(sp?)``, so what is that offensive-defence :-). Is a Pakistani JF-17 offensive or defensive, is an Indian Phalcon offensive or defensive? Are you going to claim that the PNS Kahlid is ``defensive`` weaponary?
Given the fact that intelligence failed, what option did India have at that point. We had to bring in our best planes, artillery, mountain warfare units for the difficult task.
On the IAF/PAF issue, due to the localized nature of the conflict, both sides put their best aircraft into the region. If the PAF had a clear edge in technology I am sure the pressure would be on them from the army to splash a few and dissuade the Indians from using bombing as another tool to dislodge the NLI. Over a hundred people were estimated to be killed at the Pakistani base camp of Muntho Dhalo(http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/History/Kargil/Shenag.html, http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/History/Kargil/PCamp.html). You don`t think there would be pressure to do something about this? Is the PAF so callous when it comes to supporting the army?
The ``kill`` could have been easily claimed by the ``freedom fighters``. Exactly the same as was done in the case of the Mi-17 that was brought down by Pakistani air defence and claimed by the ``freedom fighters`` (refer transcript of talk between Aziz Khan(?)and Musharaf in China)
``However, since Pakistan denied involvement of its own soldiers, it did not rely on shoulder launched missiles either``
You need to read up on Kargil. Hundreds of Stingers/Anza were fired by NLI and Pak Air defence. This is what led to introduction of the Mirage`s/PGM`s as they had effective countermeasures and could target from outside the SAM envelope.
``What I specifically mentioned were fighter-bombers, aircraft carriers, and tanks. None of the these could be used in Kargil. Could they? So why are they being purchased?``
Who knows the nature of the next adventure the geniuses of GHQ, Pindi will dream up? We may need to blockade Karachi the next time around, hence the aircraft carrier.
Absolutely right on the Intelligence. As Napoleon said ``A spy in the right place is worth a thousand men in the field``. And as the americans are discovering there is no alternative to humint. Better SAR (Synthetic Aperture Radar) equipped survillence aircraft is another investment India must make.
I am not sure I understand the distinction you make between by offensive v/s defensive weaponary. Pakistani doctrine has long been one of ``reposite(sp?)``, so what is that offensive-defence :-). Is a Pakistani JF-17 offensive or defensive, is an Indian Phalcon offensive or defensive? Are you going to claim that the PNS Kahlid is ``defensive`` weaponary?
Given the fact that intelligence failed, what option did India have at that point. We had to bring in our best planes, artillery, mountain warfare units for the difficult task.
On the IAF/PAF issue, due to the localized nature of the conflict, both sides put their best aircraft into the region. If the PAF had a clear edge in technology I am sure the pressure would be on them from the army to splash a few and dissuade the Indians from using bombing as another tool to dislodge the NLI. Over a hundred people were estimated to be killed at the Pakistani base camp of Muntho Dhalo(http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/History/Kargil/Shenag.html, http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/History/Kargil/PCamp.html). You don`t think there would be pressure to do something about this? Is the PAF so callous when it comes to supporting the army?
The ``kill`` could have been easily claimed by the ``freedom fighters``. Exactly the same as was done in the case of the Mi-17 that was brought down by Pakistani air defence and claimed by the ``freedom fighters`` (refer transcript of talk between Aziz Khan(?)and Musharaf in China)
``However, since Pakistan denied involvement of its own soldiers, it did not rely on shoulder launched missiles either``
You need to read up on Kargil. Hundreds of Stingers/Anza were fired by NLI and Pak Air defence. This is what led to introduction of the Mirage`s/PGM`s as they had effective countermeasures and could target from outside the SAM envelope.
``What I specifically mentioned were fighter-bombers, aircraft carriers, and tanks. None of the these could be used in Kargil. Could they? So why are they being purchased?``
Who knows the nature of the next adventure the geniuses of GHQ, Pindi will dream up? We may need to blockade Karachi the next time around, hence the aircraft carrier.
#82 Posted by arjun_m on February 6, 2004 8:23:49 pm
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#81 Posted by arjun_m on February 6, 2004 8:23:35 pm
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#80 Posted by Ajeet on February 6, 2004 8:23:35 pm
Roamir,
`......Isn`t it an obvious and unnecessary arms race, at the expense of the poor people of South Asia? `
When Pakistan was paying top dollars for f-16, which never go delivered, then was there no arm race or the people were not poor at that time?
`......Isn`t it an obvious and unnecessary arms race, at the expense of the poor people of South Asia? `
When Pakistan was paying top dollars for f-16, which never go delivered, then was there no arm race or the people were not poor at that time?
#79 Posted by bbabu on February 6, 2004 8:23:35 pm
If the IAF has satellite guided weapons and spy satellites Kargil would have been over in a week with hundreds of intruders dead.
Look at US war in Afghanistan. Compare it with the Russian war in Afghanistan.
#78 Posted by arjun_m on February 6, 2004 8:23:35 pm
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#77 Posted by Layman on February 6, 2004 8:23:35 pm
#73 Romair:
Good point regarding intelligence and use of aircraft in Kargil.
If India is buying weaponry, why should Pakistan participate in the arms race, as it already has the nuclear bomb? India is a status quo power - it wants neither territory nor wealth from Pakistan. You guys already have a deterrent, why should you care about India`s weaponry... unless you want to fight conventional wars or mini-wars like Kargil or keep sending terrorists into India.
Good point regarding intelligence and use of aircraft in Kargil.
If India is buying weaponry, why should Pakistan participate in the arms race, as it already has the nuclear bomb? India is a status quo power - it wants neither territory nor wealth from Pakistan. You guys already have a deterrent, why should you care about India`s weaponry... unless you want to fight conventional wars or mini-wars like Kargil or keep sending terrorists into India.
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