Oh Myopia, Thy Name is Pakistan

This is a very good article on current pakistani thinking ! I thank allah that finally the pakistani mind is opening up !

I thought this was a place where pakis and hindus talked with the nationality bit exorcised???
I thought it was only Musharraf and Vajapai fighting for replacing Bush`s terrier...but i find a certain arjun m and His Exellency eyeing the slot too lol.
Though i have to say, i really liked your ``how many stars does Mushy need on his report card before he gets the F-16`s`` arjun m. No prospect for further stars though.I think it`s about time the hand of friendship the General extended to America is going to turn into a leg!

red

#105

Well, the answer then is that I have never heard this view articulated in the 20+ years I lived in India.

bong_dongs #96: ``If you will indulge me ROmair sahib, could you elaborate on the cognitive process that led you to infer (2) from (1) ``

I did not infered. I inquired. I stated,

``As I stated earlier, I still find it amazing that a country seven times the size of Pakistan would think like this. So I hope you were joking. If a country has five times the military budget as its opponent, it doesn`t matter what the opponent does, the opponent cannot be successful.``

My quesiton grew out of a failiure to understand how a country seven to eight times another can still feel as if its smaller opponent can threaten it. I cannot come up with any reason, under which you can argue that India needs more weapons to defend itself from comparitively tiny Pakistan.

Since there is no logical or practical reason that can explain this. The reason has to be illogical or emotional or historical. Hence my question to you about Muslims historically ruling India, and whether this was in any way part of a psychological hangover.

I am a bit surprised that you consider this a inference. It was a question, which you could have answered either way? Not a Inference. An inference is a conclusion, or an implication. I did not conclude anything, nor did I imply. Those would not have resulted in a question. I inquired.

I hope that satisfies your curiousity.

re: Idiot at work again
``If India had kept its eyes on the hilltops, there would have been no problem for India. Once India lost the height advantage, it basically lost the battle. Simple Physics. ``
I think this guy Romair never studied Physics in school.
Anyway, the Pak army took the heights but could not keep it and was driven away. Anyone with an iota of brain would see who won.
Pak is a nation of Liers and Cheats. It is not surprising Romair continues to defend a position that has no merit today. Does any Indian give a rat`s A$$ what Romair or anyone thinks about Kargil battle? It is only what the experts think that matters.
Sridhar

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whippinzed #101:
That was a fantastic read! Thanks for sharing.

inquirer #100 check out http://www.sulekha.com/epress/ebookdetail.asp?cid=EB_KALAM_001 you can download the whole autobiography. Kalaam`s autobiography is called `wings of fire - an autobiography`



However at http://www.sulekha.com/expressions/column.asp?cid=305892 you can read exerpts of it. I am attaching a few paragraphs of the same set of exerpts here....







This earth is His, to Him belong those vast and boundless skies;
Both seas within Him rest, and yet in that small pool He lies.

ATHARVA VEDA Book 4, Hymn 16.

1

I was born into a middle-class Tamil family in the island town of Rameswaram in the erstwhile Madras state. My father, Jainulabdeen, had neither much formal education nor much wealth; despite these disadvantages, he possessed great innate wisdom and a true generosity of spirit. He had an ideal helpmate in my mother, Ashiamma. I do not recall the exact number of people she fed every day, but I am quite certain that far more outsiders ate with us than all the members of our own family put together.

My parents were widely regarded as an ideal couple. My mother`s lineage was the more distinguished, one of her forebears having been bestowed the title of `Bahadur` by the British.

I was one of many children—a short boy with rather undistinguished looks, born to tall and handsome parents. We lived in our ancestral house, which was built in the middle of the 19th century. It was a fairly large pucca house, made of limestone and brick, on the Mosque Street in Rameswaram. My austere father used to avoid all inessential comforts and luxuries. However, all necessities were provided for, in terms of food, medicine or clothes. In fact, I would say mine was a very secure childhood, both materially and emotionally.

I normally ate with my mother, sitting on the floor of the kitchen. She would place a banana leaf before me, on which she then ladled rice and aromatic sambhar, a variety of sharp, home-made pickles and a dollop of fresh coconut chutney.

The famous Shiva temple, which made Rameswaram so sacred to pilgrims, was about a ten-minute walk from our house. Our locality was predominantly Muslim, but there were quite a few Hindu families too, living amicably with their Muslim neighbours. There was a very old mosque in our locality where my father would take me for evening prayers. I had not the faintest idea of the meaning of the Arabic prayers chanted, but I was totally convinced that they reached God. When my father came out of the mosque after the prayers, people of different religions would be sitting outside, waiting for him. Many of them offered bowls of water to my father who would dip his fingertips in them and say a prayer. This water was then carried home for invalids. I also remember people visiting our home to offer thanks after being cured. My father always smiled and asked them to thank Allah, the benevolent and merciful.

The high priest of Rameswaram temple, Pakshi Lakshmana Sastry, was a very close friend of my father`s. One of the most vivid memories of my early childhood is of the two men, each in his traditional attire, discussing spiritual matters. When I was old enough to ask questions, I asked my father about the relevance of prayer. My father told me there was nothing mysterious about prayer. Rather, prayer made possible a communion of the spirit between people. “When you pray,” he said, “you transcend your body and become a part of the cosmos, which knows no division of wealth, age, caste, or creed.”

My father could convey complex spiritual concepts in very simple, down-to-earth Tamil. He once told me, “In his own time, in his own place, in what he really is, and in the stage he has reached—good or bad—every human being is a specific element within the whole of the manifest divine Being. So why be afraid of difficulties, sufferings and problems? When troubles come, try to understand the relevance of your sufferings. Adversity always presents opportunities for introspection.”

“Why don`t you say this to the people who come to you for help and advice?” I asked my father. He put his hands on my shoulders and looked straight into my eyes. For quite some time he said nothing, as if he was judging my capacity to comprehend his words. Then he answered in a low, deep voice. His answer filled me with a strange energy and enthusiasm:

Whenever human beings find themselves alone, as a natural reaction, they start looking for company. Whenever they are in trouble, they look for someone to help them. Whenever they reach an impasse, they look to someone to show them the way out. Every recurrent anguish, longing, and desire finds its own special helper. For the people who come to me in distress, I am but a go-between in their effort to propitiate demonic forces with prayers and offerings. This is not a correct approach at all and should never be followed. One must understand the difference between a fear-ridden vision of destiny and the vision that enables us to seek the enemy of fulfilment within ourselves.

I remember my father starting his day at 4 a.m. by reading the namaz before dawn. After the namaz, he used to walk down to a small coconut grove we owned, about 4 miles from our home. He would return, with about a dozen coconuts tied together thrown over his shoulder, and only then would he have his breakfast. This remained his routine even when he was in his late sixties. I have throughout my life tried to emulate my father in my own world of science and technology. I have endeavoured to understand the fundamental truths revealed to me by my father, and feel convinced that there exists a divine power that can lift one up from confusion, misery, melancholy and failure, and guide one to one`s true place. And once an individual severs his emotional and physical bondage, he is on the road to freedom, happiness and peace of mind.

I was about six years old when my father embarked on the project of building a wooden sailboat to take pilgrims from Rameswaram to Dhanuskodi, (also called Sethukkarai), and back. He worked at building the boat on the seashore, with the help of a relative, Ahmed Jallaluddin, who later married my sister, Zohara. I watched the boat take shape. The wooden hull and bulkheads were seasoned with the heat from wood fires. My father was doing good business with the boat when, one day, a cyclone bringing winds of over 100 miles per hour carried away our boat, along with some of the landmass of Sethukkarai. The Pamban Bridge collapsed with a train full of passengers on it. Until then, I had only seen the beauty of the sea, now its uncontrollable energy came as a revelation to me.

By the time the boat met its untimely end, Ahmed Jallaluddin had become a close friend of mine, despite the difference in our ages. He was about 15 years older than I and used to call me Azad. We used to go for long walks together every evening. As we started from Mosque Street and made our way towards the sandy shores of the island, Jallaluddin and I talked mainly of spiritual matters. The atmosphere of Rameswaram, with its flocking pilgrims, was conducive to such discussion. Our first halt would be at the imposing temple of Lord Shiva. Circling around the temple with the same reverence as any pilgrim from a distant part of the country, we felt a flow of energy pass through us.

Jallaluddin would talk about God as if he had a working partnership with Him. He would present all his doubts to God as if He were standing nearby to dispose of them. I would stare at Jallaluddin and then look towards the large groups of pilgrims around the temple, taking holy dips in the sea, performing rituals and reciting prayers with a sense of respect towards the same Unknown, whom we treat as the formless Almighty. I never doubted that the prayers in the temple reached the same destination as the ones offered in our mosque. I only wondered whether Jallaluddin had any other special connection to God. Jallaluddin`s schooling had been limited, principally because of his family`s straitened circumstances. This may have been the reason why he always encouraged me to excel in my studies and enjoyed my success vicariously. Never did I find the slightest trace of resentment in Jallaluddin for his deprivation. Rather, he was always full of gratitude for whatever life had chosen to give him.

Incidentally, at the time I speak of, he was the only person on the entire island who could write English. He wrote letters for almost anybody in need, be they letters of application or otherwise. Nobody of my acquaintance, either in my family or in the neighbourhood even had Jallaluddin`s level of education or any links of consequence with the outside world. Jallaluddin always spoke to me about educated people, of scientific discoveries, of contemporary literature, and of the achievements of medical science. It was he who made me aware of a “brave, new world” beyond our narrow confines. In the humble environs of my boyhood, books were a scarce commodity. By local standards, however, the personal library of STR Manickam, a former `revolutionary` or militant nationalist, was sizeable. He encouraged me to read all I could and I often visited his home to borrow books.

Another person who greatly influenced my boyhood was my first cousin, Samsuddin. He was the sole distributor for newspapers in Rameswaram. The newspapers would arrive at Rameswaram station by the morning train from Pamban. Samsuddin`s newspaper agency was a one-man organization catering to the reading demands of the 1,000-strong literate population of Rameswaram town. These newspapers were mainly bought to keep abreast of current developments in the National Independence Movement, for astrological reference or to check the bullion rates prevailing in Madras. A few readers with a more cosmopolitan outlook would discuss Hitler, Mahatma Gandhi and Jinnah; almost all would finally flow into the mighty political current of Periyar EV Ramaswamy`s movement against high caste Hindus. Dinamani was the most sought after newspaper. Since reading the printed matter was beyond my capability, I had to satisfy myself with glancing at the pictures in the newspaper before Samsuddin delivered them to his customers.

The Second World War broke out in 1939, when I was eight years old. For reasons I have never been able to understand, a sudden demand for tamarind seeds erupted in the market. I used to collect the seeds and sell them to a provision shop on Mosque Street. A day`s collection would fetch me the princely sum of one anna. Jallaluddin would tell me stories about the war which I would later attempt to trace in the headlines in Dinamani. Our area, being isolated, was completely unaffected by the war. But soon India was forced to join the Allied Forces and something like a state of emergency was declared. The first casualty came in the form of the suspension of the train halt at Rameswaram station. The newspapers now had to be bundled and thrown out from the moving train on the Rameswaram Road between Rameswaram and Dhanuskodi. That forced Samsuddin to look for a helping hand to catch the bundles and, as if naturally, I filled the slot. Samsuddin helped me earn my first wages. Half a century later, I can still feel the surge of pride in earning my own money for the first time.

Every child is born, with some inherited characteristics, into a specific socio-economic and emotional environment, and trained in certain ways by figures of authority. I inherited honesty and self-discipline from my father; from my mother, I inherited faith in goodness and deep kindness and so did my three brothers and sister. But it was the time I spent with Jallaluddin and Samsuddin that perhaps contributed most to the uniqueness of my childhood and made all the difference in my later life. The unschooled wisdom of Jallaluddin and Samsuddin was so intuitive and responsive to non-verbal messages, that I can unhesitatingly attribute my subsequently manifested creativity to their company in my childhood.

I had three close friends in my childhood—Ramanadha Sastry, Aravindan, and Sivaprakasan. All these boys were from orthodox Hindu Brahmin families. As children, none of us ever felt any difference amongst ourselves because of our religious differences and upbringing. In fact, Ramanadha Sastry was the son of Pakshi Lakshmana Sastry, the high priest of the Rameswaram temple. Later, he took over the priesthood of the Rameswaram temple from his father; Aravindan went into the business of arranging transport for visiting pilgrims; and Sivaprakasan became a catering contractor for the Southern Railways.

During the annual Shri Sita Rama Kalyanam ceremony, our family used to arrange boats with a special platform for carrying idols of the Lord from the temple to the marriage site, situated in the middle of the pond called Rama Tirtha which was near our house. Events from the Ramayana and from the life of the Prophet were the bedtime stories my mother and grandmother would tell the children in our family.

One day when I was in the fifth standard at the Rameswaram Elementary School, a new teacher came to our class. I used to wear a cap which marked me as a Muslim, and I always sat in the front row next to Ramanadha Sastry, who wore a sacred thread. The new teacher could not stomach a Hindu priest`s son sitting with a Muslim boy. In accordance with our social ranking as the new teacher saw it, I was asked to go and sit on the back bench. I felt very sad, and so did Ramanadha Sastry. He looked utterly downcast as I shifted to my seat in the last row. The image of him weeping when I shifted to the last row left a lasting impression on me.

After school, we went home and told our respective parents about the incident. Lakshmana Sastry summoned the teacher, and in our presence, told the teacher that he should not spread the poison of social inequality and communal intolerance in the minds of innocent children. He bluntly asked the teacher to either apologize or quit the school and the island. Not only did the teacher regret his behaviour, but the strong sense of conviction Lakshmana Sastry conveyed ultimately reformed this young teacher.

On the whole, the small society of Rameswaram was highly stratified and very rigid in terms of the segregation of different social groups. However, my science teacher Sivasubramania Iyer, though an orthodox Brahmin with a very conservative wife, was something of a rebel. He did his best to break social barriers so that people from varying backgrounds could mingle easily. He used to spend hours with me and would say, “Kalam, I want you to develop so that you are on par with the highly educated people of the big cities.”

One day, he invited me to his home for a meal. His wife was horrified at the idea of a Muslim boy being invited to dine in her ritually pure kitchen. She refused to serve me in her kitchen. Sivasubramania Iyer was not perturbed, nor did he get angry with his wife, but instead, served me with his own hands and sat down beside me to eat his meal. His wife watched us from behind the kitchen door. I wondered whether she had observed any difference in the way I ate rice, drank water or cleaned the floor after the meal. When I was leaving his house, Sivasubramania Iyer invited me to join him for dinner again the next weekend. Observing my hesitation, he told me not to get upset, saying, “Once you decide to change the system, such problems have to be confronted.” When I visited his house the next week, Sivasubramania Iyer`s wife took me inside her kitchen and served me food with her own hands.

Then the Second World War was over and India`s freedom was imminent. “Indians will build their own India,” declared Gandhiji. The whole country was filled with an unprecedented optimism. I asked my father`s permission to leave Rameswaram and study at the district headquarters in Ramanathapuram.

He told me as if thinking aloud, “Abul! I know you have to go away to grow. Does the seagull not fly across the Sun, alone and without a nest? You must forego your longing for the land of your memories to move into the dwelling place of your greater desires; our love will not bind you nor will our needs hold you.” He quoted Khalil Gibran to my hesitant mother, “Your children are not your children. They are the sons and daughters of Life`s longing for itself. They come through you but not from you. You may give them your love but not your thoughts. For they have their own thoughts.”

He took me and my three brothers to the mosque and recited the prayer Al Fatiha from the Holy Qur`an. As he put me on the train at Rameswaram station he said, “This island may be housing your body but not your soul. Your soul dwells in the house of tomorrow which none of us at Rameswaram can visit, not even in our dreams. May God bless you, my child!”

Samsuddin and Ahmed Jallaluddin travelled with me to Ramanathapuram to enrol me in Schwartz High School, and to arrange for my boarding there. Somehow, I did not take to the new setting. The town of Ramanathapuram was a thriving, factious town of some fifty thousand people, but the coherence and harmony of Rameswaram was absent. I missed my home and grabbed every opportunity to visit Rameswaram. The pull of educational opportunities at Ramanathapuram was not strong enough to nullify the attraction of poli, a South Indian sweet my mother made. In fact, she used to prepare twelve distinctly different varieties of it, bringing out the flavour of every single ingredient used in the best possible combinations.

Despite my homesickness, I was determined to come to terms with the new environment because I knew my father had invested great hopes in my success. My father visualized me as a Collector in the making and I thought it my duty to realise my father`s dream, although I desperately missed the familiarity, security and comforts of Rameswaram.

Jallaluddin used to speak to me about the power of positive thinking and I often recalled his words when I felt homesick or dejected. I tried hard to do as he said, which was to strive to control my thoughts and my mind and, through these, to influence my destiny. Ironically, that destiny did not lead me back to Rameswaram, but rather, swept me farther away from the home of my childhood.

#74, Layman:
Thanks for your response. Nehru`s response was actually entirely appropriate. What are defense pacts worth anyway? Example is France - Germany and Germany - Russia pacts, the precursors of WW I & II. Who knows the offer of the pact was merely a political ploy to lull India into complacency. I would not put it past Mr. Later Jinnah. I was wondering if there was a formal documentation available.

I saw your comment on President of India, Mr Kalam. I am impressed further by learning the facts you point out about Mr. Kalam. Would you be kind enough to publish a brief biography of Mr. Kalam for us Chowkies` enlightenment. That may be a very significant and topical thing to do at the Chowk.

Romair,

`.........If a country has five times the military budget as its opponent, it doesn`t matter what the opponent does, the opponent cannot be successful...`

You should have stuck with the Air Force become an Air Marshall and advised the GHQ of the above. They are not as smart as you, because they don`t seem to understand the concept. They keep trying again and again.

Miltiary won, politicians lost.....

How often will one hear this refrain in Pakistan`s history! I suspect that many Pakistanis are beginning to figure things out.

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#95
My statement (1):
``Who knows the nature of the next adventure the geniuses of GHQ, Pindi will dream up? We may need to blockade Karachi the next time around, hence the aircraft carrier.``

Your statement (2):
`` Is there any kind of psychological hangover amongst Indians, that Muslims may come and rule over them again.``

If you will indulge me ROmair sahib, could you elaborate on the cognitive process that led you to infer (2) from (1)

bong_dongs#83: ``Who knows the nature of the next adventure the geniuses of GHQ, Pindi will dream up? We may need to blockade Karachi the next time around, hence the aircraft carrier.``

As I stated earlier, I still find it amazing that a country seven times the size of Pakistan would think like this. So I hope you were joking. If a country has five times the military budget as its opponent, it doesn`t matter what the opponent does, the opponent cannot be successful.

The ratios of size between Pakistan and India are similar to those between Sri Lanka and Pakistan. I cannot imagine anything that Sri Lanka could do that would require Pakistan to increase its military budget.

This may sound strange and perhaps a bit racist, but I need to ask the question anyways. Is there any kind of psychological hangover amongst Indians, that Muslims may come and rule over them again. An Indian friend of mine actually mentioned this as a feeling in that existed in the 47 timeframe.....

``On the IAF/PAF issue, due to the localized nature of the conflict, both sides put their best aircraft into the region.``

If the PAF or any other Air Force is ordered into war, obviously it would go into war, even if the opposition had much superior weaponry. So it was not a question of BVRs.

Let me give you the inside scoop on the PAF, from someone who knows someone who was in the know. The PAF did not participate at all in Kargil. Other than moving a squadron or two to the Northern Areas, to ensure India aircraft did not cross the border. The PAF did not provide any close air support to the Pakistani soldiers.

It was asked to participate in Kargil, by the Army high command, but it decided otherwise. The Air Marshall who was supposed to be the next PAF Chief did a whole presentation to the Army Generals, explaining why Kargil was a bad idea. The PAF and Navy`s top leadership is far less emotional and more balanced than the Army`s (that is probably why PAF has such an excellent record against India, while the Army does not). The Air Marshalls have been trained by Asghar Khan, while the Generals have been trained by Ayub Khan. This is also probably why, the PAF, as a policy, never participates in Martial Laws, despite being requested by the Army. All my friends in the Army have had some Martial Law responsibility. Neither I, nor a single friend in the Air Force has had any. And this is also why you will never see any PAF General who is overly emotional, either religiously or in his battle plans.

Strangely the Army apparently decided to go ahead with Kargil anyways, despite the PAF`s warnings and lack of participation. Nawaz Sharif was told about everything, but he lacked the vision to figure out how the whole thing would pan out. So he agreed to Kargil.

The Army planned a superbly brilliant tactical operation. I have heard that every bit of communication, durign the planning, was to be carried out verbally, face to face, with no wireless. The Army won the military portion of the Kargil conflict, the moment it occupied the high ground successfully. Its plan was to keep the hills occupied, until the snow came. Thereby isolating Indian soldiers in Siachen. And then taking them as POWs in Siachen, when they ran out of supplies.

So all the hoopla created by the Indian media, politicians and now even movie stars about Kargil being a plan to conquer Kashmir is nonsense. One cannot conquer Kashmir, by taking a few hilltops. Kargil was thus a counterattack to Siachen.

I think the Army could have held on for that long, if the conflict not had a chance of expanding. Of course, the Army did not look at the, ``bigger`` picture, i.e. the picture that usually civilian politicians should look at. There was an assumption that China would be able to keep US and Indian pressure off Pakistan, long enough, till the snows fell. After that, Pakistan would admit defeat and retreat. And then take the battle to Siachen, where India was the aggressor, and thus could not complain about Pakistan lauching the attack. If at that point, India expanded the war, as an aftershoot of the Siachen conflict, the blame would go to India, since it was the one which attacked in Siachen.

However, China did not support Pakistan. And the pressure from every country was so intense that NS crumbled. And ordered a retreat. He probably had no choice, I assume, since he must have been under immense pressure. After the retreat, which originally was not supposed to occur till the snow fell, the Army leadership had a potential mutiny on its hands. The Captains and Leiutenants, who even according to Indian soldiers, had fought bravely, felt that their lives had been sacrificied for no reason. The Army leadership was upset, because they felt that the politicians had first agreed, and then backed out, and that Pakistan could have kept the high areas occupied for a few more weeks to months. The politicians were upset because they felt the whole thing was not explained to them, correctly. Had it been explained to them in full, they felt they would not have agreed to it.

I have no idea who is wrong and who is correct. Anyways, this series of events, combined with some other factors, lead to the coup.

In Kargil, Vajpayee played his cards well and won the political battle, and thus the whole war, even though Pakistan had won the military battle. The soldiers on both sides fought extremely bravely. Indian leadeship had committed a massive intelligence blunder, and the Pakisan leadership had committed a massive strategic blunder.

Well, afterwards, when it came time to appoint the next Chief of the PAF, Musharraf, by that time CE of Pakistan, got rid of the whole PAF top brass, specifically the Air Marshall who had made the presentation, and was supposed to be the next Chief. And appointed someone way junior to everyone as the PAF Chief (he later died in the Fokker crash). Allegedly, because he was angry at the PAF`s lack of support for Kargil.

``I am not sure I understand the distinction you make between by offensive v/s defensive weaponary.``

There are three categories of weapons. Purely defensive ones like radar systems, fighter interceptors for point defence, etc. There are weapons which are offensive and defensive, like Close Air Support aircraft, Multi-role aircraft like F-16s, infantry soldiers, artillery(?) etc.. Then there are strategic offensive weapons, like Air Craft carriers, Strike armoured corps, Bomber aircrafts, and nukes etc.

Pakistan has no bombers, no aircraft carriers, and I think only two strike corps, i.e. it has no intention of destroying India, other than with nukes. If a country purchases such strategic offensive weaponry, then it means it will use it to attack someone, not to defend itself. Or it wants to get into MAD with the opponent.

India is already in a state of MAD with Pakistan due to nukes. And has five times the weaponry that can be used offensively and defensively (Mirage-2000s etc.) Hence I fail to understand its ramp up of furthur purchases of offensive weaponry. Even in Kargil, it only needed to deploy a tiny fraction of its military. And the same is the case in Siachen.

If it is afraid of Pakistan attacking it, it should be spending money on radars and on intelligence. Not on Aircraft carriers and tanks are strike aircraft. If a 5-1 is not enough, then why would 10-1 be a deterent?

In fact every offensive Pakistan has ever taken has been in Kashmir. It has never crossed international borders in an all out offensive attack on India. All Kashmir ops have been covert, which cannot be detered by Aircraft carriers. They can only be detered by intelligence, and a better relationship with the local population.

I will check up furthur on the use of shoulder launched missiles. I believe they were only used inside Pakistani borders by Pakistani soldiers. There was a Mig-21 that was shot in Pakistan and the pilot was captured. Another got lost in Pakistan and crashed, killing the pilot. And the helicopter. Which I assume was shot down from the Pakistani side.

In any case, if the aim is to just bomb soldiers sitting on top of a hill, BVRs become useless. In fact, I don`t think it would make sense for an Air Force to risk its most expensive aircraft to the job that older cheaper aircraft can do. And as I said earlier, the chances of those bombs hitting its own soldiers climbing up the hills become quite high.

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I told you so,

In the present times when the credibility of CIA and MI5 are at stake the stellar achievements of Indian intelligence agencies have been little recognised. The findings of the CIA has been discredited by the absence of even a single WMD in Iraq while the machinations of the political masters in the US has lost them credibility and portrayed them as congenital liars.
In all the tamasha of Dr Khans apology and the presidential pardon on que from the teleprompter, the incontrovertible evidence from the indian RAW has received little mention and media attention. India has maintained all along that the missiles of Pakistan are simply a barter for the bomb and Pakistan had been consistently spreading the Islamic bomb. They even cited specific flights from Pakistan carrying the bomb material, only now to be confirmed by the ring leader.
Same is true with the role of Pakistan in Kashmir violence. The Indian data that Pak army is providing cover for the infiltrators has been well proven by the reduced killings in Kashmir. The violence has tapered of and will reduce dramatically in the coming months as those already in India are progressively liquidated.
India can duly claim that RAW is not simply an organ of Indian intelligence, but an organization of Intelligent Indians.

foundations of kargill invasion,

Kargill invasion is simply the outcome of the stupidity of the fools in delhi, went into a coma after listening to the urdu shairy in Lahore after the bus journey, lulled into sleep by the talks of the stukas and dost mitters about the common heritage.

Never had lessons in TNT, never cared to take note of the fact that mushy was planning the invasion. Kargill invasion is a political failure of indian leadership, agra summit corrected it a little, but still cannot accept the global reality that thyere can be no peace in a jihadic frontier.

bongdongs #83,85

Good posts sir. But you missed romair`s point.

Romairs original post (like a lot of his posts) is a `nyah-nyah-na-na-na`.

He`s basically saying `we pakis made you spend a whole lot of money that you could have saved...so heh heh, we won`!

- - - - -

Yes, I rememeber reading 150 pak soldiers attained shahadat early in the morning at mantho dhalo by several bombing runs by the IAF.

Also, hundreds of stingers were fired uselessly by the pakis. Perhaps romairs google searches haven`t shown him the fact that shoulder fired missiles are **completely ineffective** at close range. A mach 3 missile needs a lot of space to twist and turn.

Couple of other things about our `air` marshall:

. He assured us in 1999 (during kargil) that the intruders were NOT pak soldiers...how? ...from his `close acquaintances` in the army!!

. He wrote ultra long posts after the atlantique was shot down cursing the indians for `violating the international boundary` !!!
Pakistan, he said, should seek justice at the international court (ha ha!)

Overall he`s good entertainment !

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bongdongs #85

:)

Excerpts from Transcript of conversation betwen Musharraf and Lt Gen (then) Aziz Khan

---

Second Conversation on May 29, 1999

(Pakistan end) Lt Gen Aziz: This is Pakistan. Give me room No. 83315 (same room number). Hello?

(China end) Gen Musharraf: Hello Aziz.

Lt Gen Aziz: The situation on ground is OK, no change, this area but it is not brought down by attack. One of their MI-17 arms (?) was brought down. Further, the position is, we had approached to our position, it was brought down. Rest is OK. Nothing else except, there is a development. Have you listened to yesterday?s news regarding Mian Saheb speaking to his counterpart. He told him that the spirit of Lahore Declaration and escalation has been done by your people. Specially wanted to speak to me thereafter. He told Indian PM that they should have waited instead of upping the ante by using Air Force and all other means. He (Nawaz) told him (Indian PM) that he suggested Sartaj Aziz could go to New Delhi to explore the possibility of defusing the tension.

Gen Musharraf: OK.

...

Gen Musharraf: Has this MI-17 not fallen in our area?

Lt Gen Aziz: No Sir. This has fallen in their area. We have not claimed it. We have got it claimed through the mujahideen.

Gen Musharraf: Well done.

Lt Gen Aziz: But topwise side, crashing straight before our eyes.

Gen Musharraf: Very good. Now are they facing any greater difficulty in flying them? Are they scared or not? This also you should note. Are they coming any less nearer?

Lt Gen Aziz: Yes. There is a lot of pressure on them. They were talking about greater air defence than they had anticipated. They can?t afford to lose any more aircraft. There has been less intensity of air flying after that.

...

Nice article.

One other observation. Most calls for a separate identity in a multi-cultural society are made when there is actual discrimination and active subjugation. Both conditions did not exist in pre-partition India vis-a-vis the Muslim community and so Jinnah invented it and got a country based on that fallacy.

As I see Indian Muslims go about their business in my day-to-day life - beggars, street-hawkers, shop-owners, executives, politicians, CEOs and owners of multi-million dollar companies and the like, I cannot help but feel that it was their soul that was ripped out by Jinnah for his ideological gain. His successors then sold that soul to anyone like a prostitute in a brothel.

What a tragic fate for one of the most sublime cultures of the world.

#ROmair 73

Absolutely right on the Intelligence. As Napoleon said ``A spy in the right place is worth a thousand men in the field``. And as the americans are discovering there is no alternative to humint. Better SAR (Synthetic Aperture Radar) equipped survillence aircraft is another investment India must make.

I am not sure I understand the distinction you make between by offensive v/s defensive weaponary. Pakistani doctrine has long been one of ``reposite(sp?)``, so what is that offensive-defence :-). Is a Pakistani JF-17 offensive or defensive, is an Indian Phalcon offensive or defensive? Are you going to claim that the PNS Kahlid is ``defensive`` weaponary?

Given the fact that intelligence failed, what option did India have at that point. We had to bring in our best planes, artillery, mountain warfare units for the difficult task.

On the IAF/PAF issue, due to the localized nature of the conflict, both sides put their best aircraft into the region. If the PAF had a clear edge in technology I am sure the pressure would be on them from the army to splash a few and dissuade the Indians from using bombing as another tool to dislodge the NLI. Over a hundred people were estimated to be killed at the Pakistani base camp of Muntho Dhalo(http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/History/Kargil/Shenag.html, http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/History/Kargil/PCamp.html). You don`t think there would be pressure to do something about this? Is the PAF so callous when it comes to supporting the army?

The ``kill`` could have been easily claimed by the ``freedom fighters``. Exactly the same as was done in the case of the Mi-17 that was brought down by Pakistani air defence and claimed by the ``freedom fighters`` (refer transcript of talk between Aziz Khan(?)and Musharaf in China)

``However, since Pakistan denied involvement of its own soldiers, it did not rely on shoulder launched missiles either``
You need to read up on Kargil. Hundreds of Stingers/Anza were fired by NLI and Pak Air defence. This is what led to introduction of the Mirage`s/PGM`s as they had effective countermeasures and could target from outside the SAM envelope.

``What I specifically mentioned were fighter-bombers, aircraft carriers, and tanks. None of the these could be used in Kargil. Could they? So why are they being purchased?``
Who knows the nature of the next adventure the geniuses of GHQ, Pindi will dream up? We may need to blockade Karachi the next time around, hence the aircraft carrier.

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Roamir,

`......Isn`t it an obvious and unnecessary arms race, at the expense of the poor people of South Asia? `

When Pakistan was paying top dollars for f-16, which never go delivered, then was there no arm race or the people were not poor at that time?

If the IAF has satellite guided weapons and spy satellites Kargil would have been over in a week with hundreds of intruders dead.

Look at US war in Afghanistan. Compare it with the Russian war in Afghanistan.

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#73 Romair:
Good point regarding intelligence and use of aircraft in Kargil.

If India is buying weaponry, why should Pakistan participate in the arms race, as it already has the nuclear bomb? India is a status quo power - it wants neither territory nor wealth from Pakistan. You guys already have a deterrent, why should you care about India`s weaponry... unless you want to fight conventional wars or mini-wars like Kargil or keep sending terrorists into India.

#66 Inquirer:
When Jinnah proposed the Joint Defence Pact, Nehru dismissed it saying ``Joint Defence Pact, against whom?``

Romair #63:
``Everytime I read such lines from our Indian colleagues, I must say I am impressed by the image Pakistan has been able to create in India :-). Are there really people in India who think that India could be successfully attacked by a country 1/7th its size, and thus needs to get as many offensive weapons as it can :-) ``
Everytime I read such lines from our Pakistani colleagues, I must say I am depressed by their myopia. Pakistani compare themselves with India. What makes you think India compares itself with Pakistan? What makes you think that `protecting` ourselves from Pakistan is our only military goal?
We would like to be a regional power in our own right, and be able to stand up to the chaptas too...

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bongdongs #71: There is a difference between offensive weaponry and defensive weaponry. If India wants to keep up the arms race in South Asia, even when its military is five times the size of the next biggest military, then I think it is mutually destructive for both of us.

As for Kargil:

``At Kargil in `99, it was the technological superiority of the IAF (because of BVR equipped Mig-29`s and Mirage 2000`s) that prevented the PAF from interfering with their bombing of the NLI. Or at the very least caused the PAF to think twice. Do you agree with this statement?``

I don`t agree. If Air Forces commit to combat then they don`t worry about BVRs or about Mirages, or anything else.

India`s basic problem in Kargil was not BVRs, but intelligence. A few India sepoys placed in the bunkers on the hill would have been enough. Their salary would have been about Rs. 5000/month. About the cost of a screw on a Mirage.

One of my close acquintences commanded the first group of Army engineers that went up on Kargil. India had basically built bunkers and left them empty on top of the hills, and forgotten about them. Pakistanis went up and occupied the same bunkers, and gained the height advantage over the Indian troops. Their aim was to use the height advantage to cut of India`s supply lines to Siachen. Very simple. The same strategies that were used by Julius Ceaser and Napoleon, centuries ago.

Lose height, lose fight. Rule number one of any kind of military conflict, be it in the air or on the ground.

If India had kept its eyes on the hilltops, there would have been no problem for India. Once India lost the height advantage, it basically lost the battle. Simple Physics.

The reason the PAF did not get involved in it had nothing to do with BVRs. The PAF was not supposed to be involved in the conflict. Throughout the conflict, Pakistan claimed that its military was not involved. So there was no way the PAF could have gotten involved. Only the Air Defence was involved (and that too on Pakistan`s side of the border), which shot down two or three Indian aircraft, when the entered into Pakistan airspace. One of the pilots was handed over to the Red Cross.

The other reason the PAF did not get involved was because, its top leadership disagreed with Kargil from the get-go. They have a far more balanced view of the world, than the Army leadership. That is why Musharraf eventually fired them all, when the next Chief was to be appointed.

``Now imagine the same situation if India has skimped on buying these expensive aircraft. IAF would have been forced to bring in many more aircraft into the area.``

The aircraft had nothing to do with it. As I said, a few shepherds would have solved the problem. These aircraft in those hills of Kashmir cannot fly close enough, to the hilltops to be of any major threat. Try flying a Mirage-2000 in the hills of Kashmir, with soldiers firing Stinger missiles at you from the hills, if you don`t believe me. That is why the few, who ventured into Pakistan got disoriented and crashed. The are sitting ducks for shoulder launched missiles, since they would have to fly within the hills for effective targeting.

And if they rely on high altitude bombing, they will probably kill more of their own soldiers climbing up the hills than the adversary, hiding in bunkers.

However, since Pakistan denied involvement of its own soldiers, it did not rely on shoulder launched missiles either. Based on this, any kind of simple aircraft could have bombed those hilltops. However, in an open conflict, with shoulder launched missiles, the aircraft would have been useless - with or without BVRs.

``So next time we have a similar conflict we will have more PGM equipped aircract, AWACS control, weapon locating radars, artillery .... to further ensure that we will be able to deal with such conflicts locally.``

As I stated, you just needed a few village folk sitting on top of the hills, which India vacated. Once you get the higher ground in hills, you win the battle. And Pakistan was able to do that. AWACS, radards etc. would have been useless.

Instead of radars, a simple $30 PC Cam on top of the hills would have sufficed. To make a long story short, if $15 billion couldn`t achieve intelligence success, $30 billion won`t either.

P.S. I have no issues with radars etc. These are defenisive in nature. What I specifically mentioned were fighter-bombers, aircraft carriers, and tanks. None of the these could be used in Kargil. Could they? So why are they being purchased?

Isn`t it an obvious and unnecessary arms race, at the expense of the poor people of South Asia?

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#63 ROmair

Lets play this thought experiment:

At Kargil in `99, it was the technological superiority of the IAF (because of BVR equipped Mig-29`s and Mirage 2000`s) that prevented the PAF from interfering with their bombing of the NLI. Or at the very least caused the PAF to think twice. Do you agree with this statement?

Now imagine the same situation if India has skimped on buying these expensive aircraft. IAF would have been forced to bring in many more aircraft into the area. The job may have been much tougher for the ground troops. India may have been left with no option but to bring its superior numbers into play and expand into a wide scale war.

So this is one instance in which spending of high-tech weaponry saved escalation into an all out conflict. Hence spending on weapony which gives an highly unsymetric edge to the Indian armed forces enables it to handle events locally without geographically exapanding the conflict.

So next time we have a similar conflict we will have more PGM equipped aircract, AWACS control, weapon locating radars, artillery .... to further ensure that we will be able to deal with such conflicts locally.

echoboom you are simply hilarious, dude. I`m assuming your Chiraq letter is a troll, but even if it is it is amazingly funny. So full marks to you !! I havent laughed so hard in a long time!

#63

``Everytime I read such lines from our Indian colleagues, I must say I am impressed by the image Pakistan has been able to create in India :-)``

Why said such delusions of the Pakistani army are based in reality? But the fact remains that the upper echelons of the Pakistani army is lead by people with severe delusions, and prone to making irrational decisions, these are people who:

-At Kargil, thought that the Indian army would collapse and sue for peace, international intervention would cause an equal-equal settlement``
-Sponsored people like Omar Sheikh who is directly implicated in 9-11, what the heck were they thinking?
-Sponsored hijacking of Indian Airlines to free criminals and as a planning rehersal for 9-11

etc etc

So let me spell it out to you ROMair:

The Pakistani ``establishment`` is headed by delusional, genocidal people who are obsessed with harming India in any way possible and would care less about well being of Pakistani people, get it?

#62, sims/qbal Mustafa:
Agree that it would be hazardous to say in Pakitan what you can say in Chowk. But hopefully, this will change soon.
I am galad that at this time those in power in Pakistan have better sense than ever existed ven harking back to August 14, 1947.
I would not analyze the reasons for this betterment but would accept whatever goodd can happen between the two regions.

sims 62,

It is heartening to see a pakistani with a different view. What we are talking about here are social constructs, a kind of template that can be used to understand the motivations of people aggregated as a society, not as individuals. Many pakistanis on chowk have talked about their specific experiences with felloow pakistanis/ indians and all have been splendid, not much of any rancour, no talks of TNT and jihad. But the fact remanins that pak society has trained and sent thousands of fellow muslims to their graves in india in the name of jihad.

There is something called collective national psyche, each individual is an exception to it, but stll miraculously, it is the national psyche that governs the collective social actions. I am convinced that pak collective psyche is dominated by TNT, and a viulent strain of islam.

Now the only bulwark against the manifestations of this psyche is the role of the military, its desire to survive and not to be iraquised. Dr khan episode, the U turn on afghanistan, the kashmir surrender are all aberrations, hopefully temporary aberrations. The day os not very far off when a bearded general will take over pakistan.

#39, His Excellency:
****I thought only Pakistanis indulged in conspiracy theories. You have proven me wrong with your bizarre internal war/Colonial-Jinnah nexus theory. Get a grip on reality. India was partitioned because the elected representatives of Hindus and Muslims failed to break a constitutional impasse. They tried for many years but to no avail; until finally they mutually agreed to part ways. ****
Since you have little experience in democratic manuvering - being a Pakistani - you are losing sight of ability for molding of public opinion to extract a desired voting consequence. It does not always succeed but when there are potent fouling factors such as the British and the legacy of autocratic Muslim rule prior to them, it was not surprising that the NWFP forgot about Khan Abdul Gaffar Khan. You made my day by pointing out that some even in Pakistan see through the British-Jinnah ruse-conspiracy.

****However, Jinnah envisioned two friendly states that cooperated and traded with each other. He even proposed Joint Defense to Nehru (who rejected it). Over the decades, Pakistan progressed down a path quite different from that envisioned by Jinnah. The present generation of Pakistanis simply wants to revert to Jinnah`s vision of a moderate, democratic country at peace with its neighbors especially India. This should not be misunderstood as a desire to undo partition. ****
You do not extend the arm of friendship by sending the Kabayalis supported by Pakistan Army in Kashmir when its Government had acceded to India. At any rate, I am not aware of Jinnah`s offer of joint defence, so would you plesae provide a reference to the event? Thanks. There is a strong and legitimate desire to undo the foreign imposed partition of India. That desire should certainly not be implementaed in any unjust manner. What is needed is to bring home to the masses their common South Asian Destiny - irrespective of religion - by developing and strengthening the unifying elements in both countries.

This is to remind the ignorant-ones still leeching on to colonised mindset. The ones who were unfortunate not to get a madressa learning.

Distribute to muslims especially the near-muslims, afar-muslims, and anti-muslims.

Hand-delivered to President Chirac of France.


An Open letter from Hizb ut-Tahrir to President Chirac, President of the Republic of France

uploaded 08 Jan 2004



بِسْمِ اللهِ الرَّحْمنِ الرَّحِيمِِ
An Open letter from Hizb ut-Tahrir to President Chirac, President of the Republic of France

Monsieur le President,

We were hesitant to write this letter and there were two reasons for this hesitance:

Firstly; we do not represent a State. We are a political party whose ideology is Islam working for the resumption of the Islamic way of life by establishing the Islamic State, the Rightly guided Khilafah State in the Muslim lands. Since we do not represent a State we felt that you might find it inappropriate that a party writes to you rather than a state writing to a major power such as France.

Secondly; we do not write to any ruler who we believe will not accept the demands of our letter. We heard your speech on 17th December 2003 regarding the wearing of the Hijaab by Muslim women in France. We heard you say explicitly that France adopts secularism as a system and ideology and that you will not allow any religious symbolism in your institutions. We also heard you say explicitly that the Hijaab, i.e. the headscarf worn by Muslim women, is a religious symbol like wearing a cross and other such symbols, whereas in Islam the headscarf for a woman is considered a divine obligation like prayer and fasting. Thus, we understood from your speech that this matter has been decided by you and that you will not reconsider your recommendation to pass a law banning the Hijaab. Consequently, had we written to you there would have been little chance of you accepting our request.

In consideration of two points we decided to write to you:

Firstly: 480 years ago in the sixteenth century, we, the Muslims, undertook an act of goodwill towards France.

Secondly: Historically, France has a tradition of chivalry and reciprocating acts of goodwill.

It is our expectation in writing this letter, that the France of today will reciprocate the act of goodwill undertaken towards the France of yesterday. The French king Francis I was captured at the battle of Pavia in 1525. France felt humiliated by the capture of her king but her army was unable to rescue him from captivity. She made recourse to the Islamic Khilafah state, under the Ottomans, at that time, and she sent a messenger on behalf of the king of France on 6th December 1525 seeking help from the Islamic State. The messenger met the Ottoman Caliph Sulayman al-Qanooni who responded to his call. Sulayman gave the messenger a letter which read: “…we have received the letter delivered by your messenger, and in which you stated that your enemy has attacked your country and you are imprisoned and seek our help in respect to securing your release. We have answered your request so be at ease and do not worry…” This is how Sulayman responded. The Khilafah state used its international weight and military power to rescue the king of France and made an effective contribution towards his release.

The Caliph of the Muslims helped France without compensation, without occupying a part of France or colonising any region of France in return. Rather he did the action as an act of goodwill. Furthermore, the Treaty of Constantinople that was concluded in 1536 between the Caliph of the Muslims, Sultan Sulayman al-Qanooni and the king of France, Francis I, granted France concessions in the Islamic State which were granted to no other state.

Monsieur le President,

This is the act of goodwill that our State, the Islamic State, the Ottoman Khilafah State, undertook for the France of yesterday. Will the France of today reciprocate this act of goodwill to the Muslims and annul the decision to ban the wearing of the Hijaab by Muslim women in France?

We will wait and see - if France today reciprocates this act of goodwill then this will be a good gesture towards the Islamic Khilafah state when we re-establish it by Allah’s leave.

Kindly accept our greetings.

Hizb ut-Tahrir
9 Dhul Qa’dah 1424 AH

#63 by Romair on February 5, 2004 9:38pm PT

{{Are there really people in India who think that India could be successfully attacked by a country 1/7th its size, and thus needs to get as many offensive weapons as it can :-) }}

Captain Clueless, it`s not Indians who think India can be attacked but Pakistanis. That`s why we`ve had 3.5 wars all of which were initiated by Pakistan. And what`s more important is that all of these were lost by Pakiland.

India`s perception is that in the near future, China could pose problems for her, so staying prepared is the best option, especially when she has the means and the wherewithal for the weaponry she seeks.

bongdongs #60: ``Musharaff may be quite a reasonable person today, who knowns when he will get the urge to liberate the land of the Moguls from the clutches of the infidel again....

Lets not pretend if Pakistan was able to spend money and buy western weaponary today it would not be doing so.``

Everytime I read such lines from our Indian colleagues, I must say I am impressed by the image Pakistan has been able to create in India :-). Are there really people in India who think that India could be successfully attacked by a country 1/7th its size, and thus needs to get as many offensive weapons as it can :-)

If Pakistan had that kind of money, it probably would spend it on Defense. But it doesn`t have that kind of money, and never will. So I don`t think this is the reason for India purchasing offensive weaponry. If it was purchasing defensive weaponry, it would be understandable. But why offensive weaponry?

To put things in perspective, the current Pakistan military budget has been frozen at around $2.8 billion. The Indian budget is crossing $15 billion. So over five times Pakistan`s. For a country to have any chance of defeating another, in an offensive war, it has to have at least a 3 to 1 superiority. So for Pakistan to attack and to, ``liberate the land of the Moguls from the clutches of the infidel again,`` it would have to have an annual military budget of at least $45 billion, i.e. 16 times its current military budget. It would also need an economy seven times its current size to match India`s economic cushion.

After paying its debt, Pakistan does not, as a country, have $45 billion total left over every year. So if every Pakistani gave every penny he had earned to the military, even then it could not successfully attack India. And this is in a conventional war. Of course, India has nukes, as well. So even with such a huge fictitious budget, Pakistan could not attack India.

I will thus ask the question again: ``So what is going on? Offensive military hardware that is not going to be used is the biggest waste of foreign exchange in the world.....Any ideas....``

If my neighbor already has five times the guns I have, and then buys many more, which can only be used against me, and not against other neighbors, what could be his motivation......

As for Asghar Khan, yes I agree. Unfortunately, people like him and Imran Khan have very little chances in a feudally dominated politcal system like Pakistan`s. At least Imran Khan won one seat. Asghar Khan couldn`t even do that. Interestingly, from the same area as his, Ayub Khan`s son and his extended family completely dominate every election. Even Ayub Khan`s grandsons win from there.

Asghar Khan`s son, unlike Asghar Khan, would have done well in politics, I think. He, like Imran Khan, was a genuine philathrapist, and loved by people whom he helped. And a Cambridge educated very progressive Pakistani. And like Imran Khan, very good-looking also.

Jay
I agree with you to a large extend. My column was for the consumption of Pakistani elites, including the bosses, to be printed in NEWS on SUNDAY. I could write candidly but that would not wash down well with many who matter in the country. My sugar coated style of wrapping bitter truths is for this specific purpose. There is little point in `converting the converted`.

However, now that I will be writing for CHOWK, my gloves will come off, promise.
I.M.

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ROmair,
``So what is going on? Offensive military hardware that is not going to be used is the biggest waste of foreign exchange in the world.....Any ideas.... ``

Millitary strength cannot be built overnight.

Musharaff may be quite a reasonable person today, who knowns when he will get the urge to liberate the land of the Moguls from the clutches of the infidel again...

Or Musharaff stikes a deal to hand over Bin Laden in exchange for a 100 Block 60`s with AESA radars, AMRAAM`s backed with 3 E-3`s... and a little something in Switzerland and the Cayman`s

Lets not pretend if Pakistan was able to spend money and buy western weaponary today it would not be doing so.

btw, from what I have read else where I too regard Asghar Khan as a very competent professional. pity he chose the wrong side tho :-)

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bongdongs #56: I have not kept upto date with the F-16s. Here is my opinion, based purely on gut feeling:

I don`t think Pakistan is going to get any more F-16s. At best, it will continue to get spare parts, at US govt. prices. Otherwise it will have to buy the spare parts directly from Lockheed Martin at market price.

Aircraft, their airframes and engines, are not what generally make a military airplane. It is the avionics and weapon systems that count. An F-16 with a Sidewinder P missile is useless. An F-16 with a L vesion is lethal. So the version of F-16s that Pakistan has are now around 25 years old. They have had their day, and without massive avionics and missile upgrades, aren`t as good as the latest stuff coming out.

In my opinion, the best things that have ever happened to Pakistan military are the US blockades. Those have forced Pakistan to construct and assemble its own aircraft. And Pakistan has gotten quite good at it. Pakistan has a huge and efficiently run Aircraft Rebuild factory at Kamra, next to Attock. It rebuilds Pakistan`s whole aircraft fleet, except F-16s. It provides those services to MidEast countries, also. It assembles, enhances and exports propellor trainer aircraft. It has successfully jointly developed a nice Jet Trainer called Karakoram-8, with China, which has replaced US T-37s. And it has test flown the new F-8 (or JF-17?) with China. And will be inducting those in soon. All its Chinese planes are more American than Chinese, from the inside, since they are filled with US and British and French avionics and weapon systems. It is the biggest user of older Mirage aircraft in the world. And can now keep buying them from countries that want to get rid of them, at cheap prices and rebuilding them.

Pakistan has thus become somewhat of a master at developing US/French/UK/Chinese/Pakistan hybrids. And it has a large and solid Aerospace and Avionics Engineering stockpile of manpower, with so many Ph.Ds, MS, and BS degrees holders, that the PAF doesn`t know what to do with them (seriously speaking). To the point, that many of them are doing admin jobs and others get loaned out to Kahuta Labs etc. (two of my batchmates with Ph.Ds. are working there. I hope they were involved in the recent proliferation stuff). Its Aeronautical ngineering institution is as good as any in the USA at the Bachelors stage, with student levels close to the top institutes in the USA. They have so much excess training capacity, that they have now been opened up to civilians.

Most of this is due to the vision of Asghar Khan, who got Princeton Univ. to set up the Engineering practice in the PAF in the fifties and sixties. And laid a foundation of top-notch training institutions (perhaps much like Nehru got the IITs set up). So the PAF has had its internal version of IITs for a long time. From whatever I know, I would rank him as the most visionary aviation mind ever produced by South Asia. Too bad the guy couldn`t win a single seat in politics. He would have made an excellent Prime Minister, and Pakistan and India would be in peace today. His son, who was in Musharraf`s cabinet, was a big-time philanthrapist and would have a very good Prime Minister also. However he was killed or committed suicide. Anyways...

Due to India`s massive military budget increases, there is no way Pakistan can keep up with India on buying new aircraft. Nor is there any need to, as long as Pakistan has a nuclear deterent. So going for brand new US and French systems is useless. Other than the fact that one gets a chance to train against state of the art systems.

So Pakistan should now concentrate on indigenous joint development with China and export all this stuff. I am sure there would countries dying to buy such aircraft at cheap prices. If Pakistan`s economy keeps picking up, then maybe some private enterprise can be introduced into this whole process, and it should be turned into a major export industry. Currently, only the SAAB version of the prop aircraft, being redesigned in Pakistan, are being exported.

As for Israel. It is way ahead of all of us (India and Pakistan) in conventional and nuclear technology. Its nukes and delivery systems are second only to the USA. Its missile systems technology is extraordinary. And it is an expert at building hybrid aircraft, also.

I really cannot see what Pakistan can do with out of the box new weaponry now. It only needs to fight a defensive battle. And it has enough armament from China for that. And it has nukes. In fact, as I stated earlier, I cannot figure out why India is buying all this offensive weaponry - moreso than any other country in the world.

Bobmers (or fighter-bombers), tanks and aircraft carriers are the ultimate Air Force, Army and Naval offensive weapons, respectively. Do you have any idea why India is buying so many of them? It cannot attack China with them? It already has five times the military it needs to defend itself from Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nepal etc. It could take out non-Pakistan SAARC states with 1/3rd of its current military. The only country it cannot attack successfully offensively is Pakistan. And Pakistan has nukes, so it will never be able to attack Pakistan. And Pakistan has frozen its defence budget and thus is not getting into an economic arms race. And India is not going to be exporting the Mirage-2000, and Su-27s etc., since it is not the manufacturer.

So what is going on? Offensive military hardware that is not going to be used is the biggest waste of foreign exchange in the world.....Any ideas....

#53
``A decision on refurbishment of F-16s has been taken and announced during Lt.Gen. Hamid Nawaz`s visit to the US in October 2003.``

The article you have linked to indicates it requires congressional approval.

There is no block 0. The Belgian jets in storage are block 1 and block 5

http://www.f-16.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=4&page=1

http://www.f-16.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=67&page=1

For ROmair or HE,
Actually on the F-16 issue. I think the last batch of Pakistani F-16`s (which were never delivered) were built to the Block 15 OCU (Operational Capability Upgrade) standard.

Is the new upgrade that is envisaged (provided it gets past congress) the same as the OCU upgrade? I would think PAF will spring money for LockMart to design a new upgrade.

Pity though you guys cant do business with Israel, they have done some good work in this business (and would have been cheaper than LockMart).

AlephNull #40: ``That degree of attrition doesn’t point to the PAF having a stellar safety record on the F-16.``

Pakistan`s overall flight safety record is quite impressive. I am speaking as someone who has seen it from the inside. Uptil the last time I checked Pakistan had lost 8 out of its 40 F-16s (there must be some website that has the updated info). This is over a timeframe of over 22 years, and a major war (Afghan war), in which Pakistanis were flying F-16s around the hour, over Kahuta etc., and on interception missions. The first F-16 I saw flying was in 1983 or so. I believe they were inducted in 1981 or 82.

Flight safety records are based on the number of hours flown. And the type of missions flown. Not specifically on number of aircraft or time. So I would say this is quite an impressive record. My batchmates are the senior pilots and instructors and commanders on F-16s, at the moment. And I know for a fact that it is very difficult to qualify for those positions. For a long time, as I mentioned, Pakistan actually had the very best flight saftey record on F-16s in the world. It did not lose its first one, for a few years.

Amongst those which have been lost, the first one was due to, of all things, a collision with a wild boar, which ran onto the runway. So not much the pilot could do, nor the engineers. The Air Force had been asking for funds to fence the runway, but never got them. Another was when two pilots ejected from the aircraft, after a fire warning. I was there, for this one. Interestingly, the plane was trimmed, and kept flying, on its own. It then stalled, and carried out an auto recovery, and then kept going. This was probably engineering error.

The major pilot error was the one over the Afghan border, when one F-16 shot down another. This was the only huge blunder that I know of. The guy who got shot down, a Captain, was recovered by the Afghan Mujahideen, and returned to Pakistan. The guy who shot him down, a Lt. Col. (Wg. Cdr.) was the Sqn. cdr. of the F-16 sqn. And apparently one of the best pilots in the PAF. Due to this huge blunder, he was kicked out of the PAF, and sent to PIA. Where he probably made a fortune as a Captain on Boeings.

PAF has flown these aircraft down to their bones. Including flying them in Combat Comanders School (Pakistan` Top Gun school, which, unlike the US Navy, every Pakistani pilot has to pass through), where they are flown in combat excercises at very low altitudes. So one aircraft lost over every three years or so, is pretty good.

There are certain things that come naturally to Pakistanis. These include cynicism, fast bowling, racquet sports, and flying......

re: #43 by bongdongs

A decision on refurbishment of F-16s has been taken and announced during Lt.Gen. Hamid Nawaz`s visit to the US in October 2003.

As for the Belgian F-16s, I mistakenly wrote the US has approved the sale. This is not true. So far, Pakistan has only lodged a request with the Belgian government for sale of two F-16 squadrons. The Belgian govt has agreed to the sale pending US approval. This issue was raised in Hamid Nawaz`s Oct 2003 visit to Washington. However, no decision has yet been taken by the US administration. These Block 0 and Block 1 F-16s (built between 1974-1981) are older than the Block 15 jets (built between 1983-87) in Pakistan`s fleet.

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Iqbal

`Something of that nature happened to the generation that struggled, sacrificed and fought for a separate homeland of Muslims in India. Having achieved their goal, the characteristics required for building a nation were quite different from the ones that created it. And those have not developed! Myopia has become an endemic flaw of the nation`

Take it from me Iqbal, no one sacrificed a damn for pakistan. Muslims who partcipated in the freedom struggle, maulana azad to zakir hussain stayed in india. Pakistan was the product of a one man struggling with a typrewriter and the colonial mindset of divide and rule.
Pakistan has no freedom fighters, no one is honoured by the society for the so called struggle taht you are talking about. Pakistan is the product of the ilks of mushy, the carper baggers who went looking fir the wealth left by the fleeing non muslims. That is why pakistan created gaznavi and ghouri as pak heros. These men were never in the documents hostory any type of heros, they were barb arians, but for the carper baggers theses symbolised the very drivng force and motivation that impelled them to leave india, to take pocessions of the wealth of others.

That is the root cause of pak problems, a darwenian selection of people with a specific value system, to pocess through looting and pillage. The latest in that tradition is Dr khan

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Assad #34

If India was ready to be used in whatever way the US wanted India wouldn`t have refused sending troops to Iraq as the US desired.

HisExcellency #39,

Don`t worry. We cherish no hopes for Pakistanis undoing stupidity, bigotry and narrowmindedness.

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# 34 Assad,

`` India may be getting into a position vis-a-vis China, as Pakistan was vis-a-vis the USSR``
- India is being allowed to access certain critical technologies from the US (note the recent agreement regarding export of dual-use technology). India and China have long given up actively supporting insurgencies against each other since `79 (at the latest).
- Pakistan allowed a massive guerilla to be mounted from its territory.
Dont yout think there is a difference between the two?

``Except that India was quite ready to be used in whatever way the US wanted, in 2001``
-In 2001 Indian interests were aligned with American interests, the enemies were the same. Actually the same is true today, reshaping Pakistan, its Army and Intelligence organizations is a goal shared both by the US and India. Also what gave you the impression that India was ``quite ready to be used in whatever way the US wanted``. You surely dont think Brijesh Mishra discusses national security policy with Bidwai, Roy and Co.

# His Excellency,

``America decided to refurbish Pakistan`s current fleet of 32 fighters``

`` Americans also approved sale of F-16s to Pakistan by Belgium``

Would be much obliged if you could provide references for the above.

#35 by arjun_m

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If you had said all that about not needing the F-16s before being turned down publicly , that would have been a different thing....when you say it after the fact, it`s sour grapes....
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Unlike yourself, I have carefully inculcated a habit of changing my mind when I come across a reasonable argument backed by sound numbers. In last year`s joint session of Parliament, PPP`s Aitzaz Ahsan made such an argument. He came prepared with actual figures about the price, maintenance and fuel consumption of an F-16. Everything from training to refurbishment depends on US. The aircraft`s weapon system supports only US munitions. Even after buying the aircraft, Pakistani engineers need to make major modifications to the aircraft to use locally manufactured munitions. In war-like situations (e.g. Soviet invasion of Afghanistan where Pakistani F-16s actually engaged Russian MiGs near Parachinar), such investment can be justified.

Aitzaz Ahsan suggested that Pakistan is better off buying a couple of Boeing-777s for the PIA fleet. The return-on-investment (ROI) would be much higher since Karachi-Lahore-Manchester and Karachi-Lahore-NYC segments generate a lot of revenue for PIA. The aging Fokker/Airbus planes used for Karachi-Jiwani and Karachi-Kathmandu segments could be retired and replaced with the Boeing airliners being used currently for flights to NY/UK.

#33 by Inquirer