The Constipated Faujiz

AlephNull!

I thought I was not going to get suckered into this spitting match here but then I see a wonderful post from you.

When I read that SAT‘ Iyangar’s’ article, I thought something wasn’t right there but then I also felt there were a few things that needed some better comments from our Indian friends rather than just an outright rejection. Your comments on Iyanger article are comprehensive and don’t require any more addition from me so I would refrain from getting into this melee again.

I will just add to your comments about press freedom in Pakistan. Again, after agreeing with you that press freedom is a misnomer in Pakistan. It is a matter of how much state machinery allows you to write. If the Newspaper is in English, it will get some latitude. Urdu press still does not have that latitude. Other vernacular newspapers survive on the whims of Federal and Provincial information offices for advertisement and the information officers’ get miffed easily.

Most of the Journalist and columnist have grown up on Pakistan government subsidies. That is called lifafa(envelop) culture. There are exceptions but often columnists leverage their readership to financial benefits from the state or interested business groups. A good portion of mainstream Pakistani press/media is still owned by the state, and the Pak army maintains a tight editorial control on them. Some major publication houses like Jang, Dawn, and Nawaiwaqt groups have a history of working with the Army and when I happen to read those papers, which is rare, I am very skeptical.

I have to make some exceptions for The Daily Times and the Friday times’ group. They are both owned by Najam Sethi. Some of the writers have good reputations but Najam Sethi’s loyalties, to me, are questionable. I find lots of his editorials subtly favoring the Army vs. the political parties.

I may have to add that Pakistani press has become much freer than it was some 15 odd years ago.
Couple of things that have helped the press, the Army during Zia’s regime realized that Newspaper criticism can’t bring them down in Pakistan. If at some point the army felt that press is adding some fuel to some resentment somewhere, the army can always put its foot down. The political govts. of BB and NS also realized that there is no point in overt suppression of the press, so they also used behind the scenes arm twisting to control newspapers owners.

During the NS era, he got into a very public spat with the Jang group over some editors. Chief Editor of the Jang group at that time was Maliha Lodhi. She later became Pak ambassador to US and now is Pak high Commissioner in UK. She has some strong ties with the Army. I think she is also a daughter of a former army general and her brother is an arms supplier. Anyways, Nawaz Sharif felt that she is managing the Jang group’s editorial policies to undermine his government and favor the army. He asked the newspaper owners to remove her and some more of the editors from the paper. The owner knew that Maliha had Army’s backing and for the first time in Pakistan a newspaper group refused to oblige a Prime Minister of Pakistan. The owner did that not for the love of the freedom of press but to support the Army.

The point of this long post is that the press in Pakistan is screwed up. If the press starts ruffling some feathers, it wont take the army long to bring it down to size.
Will have more on the press in Pakistan later or as opportunity arises.

Bongdongs #253, #260, Sadna #262

I went back and read both the articles by Mr. Sampath Kumar aka Iyangar. The first one reads slightly better than the second. I’ve no problem believing that the man is a disgruntled supplier or former employee, quite possibly with good reason. It is true that there have been repeated safety issues at all the power reactor establishments in India. The following somewhat dated article from Frontline by Dr. A. Gopalakrishnan, former Chairman of the AERB, makes its case without resort to any hyperbole:

Issues of Nuclear safety

Also see the following article by T.S.Subramaniam:

Nuclear Power And Safety Issues

Extended sober and technically informative coverage of the genuine serious issues here can be found in Frontline, which for a while had an article on Nuclear Issues in every other issue.

I doubt though that that is Mr. Sampath Kumar’s goal. He is not the first person to attempt to draw a connection between problems with India`s nuclear power program and the push for weaponization – Perkovich’s book is far more extensive and calculated attempt.

There are errors in the ‘Iyangar’ article that one wouldn’t expect from someone allegedly knowledgeable about the Indian nuclear establishment. Vikram Sarabhai seems to have been personally opposed to a weapons program. However his predecessor Homi Bhabha was no recluse when it came to developing nuclear explosives. After the first Chinese test in October 1964 he declared that India could have a bomb within “eighteen months” after a go-ahead was given. He is still reviled by Westerners who don’t think Third Worlders should have nuclear weapons. There have been dark suspicions about the mysterious 1966 plane crash that killed Bhabha.

The CANDU reactors had no statutory safeguards when supplied. The Canadians did try in the mid 1960s to retroactively add safeguards to the reactors they supplied in the 1950’s, which India of course declined. ‘Iyangar’s’ assertion that India reneged on sovereign guarantees is unfounded.

Other minor points: Chakra is not a missile, it was a leased Soviet nuclear submarine. The Brahmos, currently being flight-tested, is a joint Indo-Russian venture – it will be technically close to the current state of the art.

There are passages – the more hysterical ones, like the recommendation for redrawing the map of ‘South Asia,’ which read as though they have been interpolated by the SAT staff. Or perhaps I’m just imagining things.

The SAT’s main target is the Musharraf dispensation. I suspect articles in the ‘Iyangar’ vein are SAT editor Shaheen Sehbai’s way to reassure his Pakistani readership about his Pakistani patriotism.

Incidentally I recall Tahmed some 140 or so posts ago claiming that the press in Pakistan has been as free under the Musharraf dispensation as any other. Perhaps he should ask Sehbai (who I believe is based in the DC area) what he thinks of press freedom under Musharraf. [Hint: Sehbai had to flee Pakistan for publishing a report in The News International Pakistan that Omar Sheikh had said he was behind the attack on the Indian Parliament. His family was being harassed with arbitrary arrest and the like for a while afterwards.]

TA

LOL!!! :-)

Dude, it`s ok. I understand. The maneuver you are executing is called as a ``Strategic Retreat`` in Army parlance. But of course you knew that..

I will just say that -- for your own safety of course -- firmly tuck your tail between your legs...

:-)

CoolAL #290 Trust a programmer to start pulling nits while ignoring the point being made. Chayenne/Commanche who gives a damn - anyone who read yesterday`s news knows what I am talking about.

NOW I am through with you. You can join the rest of your compatriots on chalk whose concept of a discussion is to exchange insults and putdowns. (I left a nit in the last sentence for you to pick).

Re fast breeder reactor technology.. only India and Japan seem to have mastered this for commercial energy production according to some radio talk-show host guest (the talk show was about alternatives to fossil fuels). He felt that this tech is very important but is more dangerous from hazard potential..something to do with the reaction being akin to the bomb. I have no understanding of what it means.

sadna #291

The report about American sniffer planes having detected the signature of a Pu detonation being detected above the Pakistani test sites appeared in the Australian press a couple of months after Chagai. It was downplayed in the US media for reasons that should not require too much guessing. Stalwarts of the US non-proliferation community when questioned about this apparent anomaly tried to brush it off as caused by the Indian tests having vented due to inadequate sealing (and prevaiing winds having transported it 350 miles westwards, of course). Nobody in the US establishment was too keen to have attention focus on the collusion between Pakistan and N. Korea, let alone the role of China the puppet-master.

I`m inclined to believe that the resurfacing of this issue at this particular time is not fortuitous. The US is playing more of its cards, ratcheting up the pressure on the Pakistani regime. I suspect this will not be the last we hear of this.

Dude,

ROTFL!!!

Yep, hold your breath too....

:-)

Dude,

Just to reinforce the point I made a couple of posts back, I have to let you know that there no progarm called the Cheyenne Helicopter. What was cancelled was the Commanche Helicopter.

Get the point about asses and elbows dude?

:-)

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/27/international/asia/27NUKE.html
Pakistan May Have Aided North Korea A-Test

Plats #286 Thanks for your post which I read with interest. I shall look forward to the additional comments you mention, and will respond to the content of your posts at the time.
Let me just say for now that I appreciate the decent tone of your post, as well as your focus on the substance of what I have written.

#284

Now just the FBTR but the full scale (500 MWe) protoype fast breeder reactor (PFBR) is under construction at Kalpakkam.

http://www.flonnet.com/fl1726/17261240.htm

CoolAL #284 Thank you for your post. I stopped reading after the first line.

Tahmed #280,

The Indian and the US nuclear programs were developed with different objectives.
The US program had a sense of immediacy to it, and no, the program during WW2
was not geared towards minimising casualties in Japan. And it is quite unclear that
it did. Certain sections (Truman down on) have tried to sell this as a reason, but
there are compelling arguments against it.

I would not dismiss the Indian nuclear program offhand like you have done. The
Indian objectives have been discussed in various think-tanks and appropriate fora.
Nuclear weapons are not developed to initiate war - their role (thankfully) is to
contain and prevent. The idea is to broaden your negotiating space, in the case of a potential conflict. In that sense, it is fundamentally different from having or not
having a Chayenne helicopter.

You seem to have an all or nothing approach in this issue - either India gets the
moon and the stars by virtue of it`s nuclear program, else the whole thing is useless.
China may not want to overrun India, but there is a definite territorial conflict present.
It is not as immediate as Kashmir, but who knows how things would shape up
in the future. China definitely has hegemonistic ambitions, as would any burgeoning
super-power. Their relationship with India in the Indian ocean would be adversarial, or competitive at best. You do realise, China`s relationship with Pakistan and Burma is not based on altruism - strategic depth is the main issue there. Given all this, I don`t
think India`s threat-perception vis a vis China is really all that far off.

For rather similar reasons, I do not begrudge Pakistan having a nuclear program
either. It`s reasons are ample and obvious. The mistake it has been making, in
my opinion, is devaluing it`s own nuclear currency by regularly flashing it. In the
last 2 years, everytime Musharraf has threatened or hinted towards a nuclear conflict,
it has lost some negotiating space - and this space is precisely the commodity
that nuclear weapons buy. But this is very much my personal opinion.

Just FYI, the Indian nuclear program has not really taken that much of a toll in the
economy.

I will address the rest of your points at a later time.

CoolAl #284

{{They have a pilot FBTR operating in Madras that will convert Thorium to U238 which in turn will be used to generate power.}}

Actually Th 232 converts to U 233. That is the third of the crucial fissile isotopes, together with U 235 and Pu 239. Incidentally, U 233 is supposed to have nuclear characteristics similar to Pu 239 (in terms of capture cross-section, neutron multiplication factor) while it of course has the mechanical and chemical properties of uranium. Thus it actually makes excellent fissile material for a bomb – lower critical mass than U 235, more like Pu 239.

Uh-oh, what did I just say? Obviously, the primary goal of the FBTR is to further India’s foolish militaristic great power ambitions. When will the jingoistic BJP ideologues who infest this board ever learn the futility of such endeavours?

Seriously, I couldn’t agree more with your last paragraph. But mere facts are irrelevant to Sahib’s dearly-held beliefs.

TA`s brain-fart about India`s Nuclear program...

Dude, do you realize that the major part of India`s nuclear program is STILL the civilian portion of it? The weapons program is just a tiny part of the whole show? It is just a by-product.

India has the second largest Thorium reserves on this planet. The goal of the BARC, TIFR and several other reasearch institutions in India is to establish the use of Thorium and generate power from it. They have -- with very great effort -- built up the infrastructure to achieve this. They have a pilot FBTR operating in Madras that will convert Thorium to U238 which in turn will be used to generate power. The goal is to get to 20,000 MW by 2020. They have sweated blood under all the sanctions to build the technology to mine and process Uranium, manufacture Heavy Water, generate electricity in 220 MW, locally built PWHR reactors and reprocess spent fuel. They are now ready to commission 550 MW reactors and FBR`s to burn Thorium in the next decade.

Yes, as a by-product they also produce Plutonium and a section of the establishment design and develop nuclear weapons. If India`s main goal was to produce an atomic weapons at any cost like it was for your country, they would have gone all out since their first test in 1974 and would have had a fully developed and deployed arsenal long before 1998.

Talking of by-products, they also generate radioactive isotopes that are used for medical and agricultural purposes.

If you don`t know what the Objective of India`s Nuclear program then get off your arse and do some open minded research. Don`t proclaim that it has no justification because you don`t know what it is. Dude, keep in mind that you don`t know your ass from your elbow most of the time...

Dude,

Seems like you do have an English comprehension problem dude. I said I didn`t give a rodent`s behind as to whether you thought I was cool or not....

Guess what? I still don`t give a tinker damn whether you think I am cool or not...

:-)