Restructuring Identity

I am the prime definition of what one would call a ``white girl``. My skin is pail my hair is dirty blond and I was born in raised in the heart of the Midwest, but that does not change the fact that my stepfather is a Pakistani. I have grown to love the Pakistani culture and I don`t say this as an outsider looking in.

I have been to Pakistan, Every day of life I uphold the magnificent traditions and lessons that I have learned from Pakistani people.

It pains me when I often realize that many Pakistanis will never accept the fact that I understand their culture.

Can you imagine what it is like to eat Pakistani food every day of your life and then at every gathering of Pakistani people be asked ever so kindly ``Is the food to spicy?``

Many Pakistanis see me as just another stupid and ignorant white person, but I can`t blame them for that.

It`s just nice to see that so many people are willing to fight for an understanding between races. I am glad to see that a connection between the many cultures of our world is not just something that I am struggling to find.

Re: # 1
samina where do u teach as i am taking some women and gender studies classes ..
sajal

Mariam good article,

We live in this world yet we do maintain our own separate identities. It is quite disheartening to see that Pakistani`s do not want to mingle with non-Pakistani`s. They tend to keep among themselves and do not interact with other Americans be it Whites, Blacks, Indians or even Arabs. They are the superior race and all others are corrupt and not worth interacting with. I have seen this attitude prevalent among Pakistani`s and it disgusts me.
I have met scores of Pakistani men and women who will tell you mingling with other non-Pakistani people will somehow destroy their culture and identity. The problem with this approach is that we remain prejudiced and ill informed about others. The irony of the situation is that in times of crisis even these Pakistani`s don`t stick together and help their fellow Country men or women. After living in America for even thirty years if you ask them people will tell you they are Pakistani yet if you ask their kids they will not be able to tell you with clarity who they are, they don’t know if they are Pakistani or American. As I understand, if they were born and raised here, educated here so they are Americans but of Pakistani origin.
Identity is our distinguishing characteristic and we should preserve it but not for ill conceived ideas and notions. I don`t think you have to choose as you can be both American and Pakistani. Take the positives of both cultures and develop your personality as a strong Pakistani American woman who is aware of the world she lives in.

You are right karo/kari are words of the Sindhi language meaning the colour black.

I guess the practive of honour killings comes from the ancient practice of stoning adulterers to death. Honour killings are punishment for illicit sex in a traditional/feudal society and this may be based on both tribal as well as religious laws.

Is this a research paper on identity?

Stuka,

laws of honour killings.

The posts by tahmed and romair are the classic exampoles of pak white washing, the denial of reality and the vain hope that other chowkies will believe what they post.

In pakistan murder is not a crime against the state as in other non muslim countries. When some one is killed, there has to be complaint raised. There can be instances per the hoodood ordinance where the families involved can settle out of court by paying compensation. Murder is a tort.

YTake the case of samial sarwas, killed in the office of asma jahangir. She had left her husband, she was killed by her fathyer. No one complained to the police. The state did not persue it per the hoodood ordinance. No crime was committed.

I can understand corruption as in india and other places, like O.J simpsons, where the rposecution finally fails, but in pakistan there was no crime comitted. No one was prosecuted.

No romair, no tahmed will dare comment on the legal aspects why no onewas prosecuted for such an open and shut case. No tahmed will comment on why the pak parliment refused to condemn the killings.

Stuka, you can claim close cultural links with pakistan, the under lyinf forces of the cultural identity of pakistan is reprehensible.

Stuka at # 91:

Pakistanis are not ignoring the message that ``khabees`` is sending. On the contrary, I believe that too many Pakistanis on Chowk and in our print media are overly-critical of ourselves. Indians have done a great job in that they have detached their economic development from the social problems. For example, the Indian media started giving a positive image of the country as on the road to development, the next big thing in the economic scene, the great India and so on from early 90s. Not that Indians overcame all of their social problems, they put them aside and dealt with them separately, never letting the bad performance on social front tarnish the image as an emerging economic giant. A proof of this image building is the perception in the minds of new generation of Indians growing up abroad. They seriously believe that India is all about economic development, there are no social problems existent in their parents` homeland, all of Pakistan is Jihadi, our women are burqah clad, madressas exist on all roads and highways, etc.

Otoh, chest-beating Pakistanis are never tired of criticising our performance on each and every single social and political shortcoming. Most of the Pakistanis are over-emotional and a depressed lot. We love to fall in pity pit and live in eternal depression. nazarhaytkhan, godot, Ayaz Amir, Hoodbhoy come from this group.

We don`t listen to the message of the ``Khabees``, because many Pakistanis are over-performing on this count.

Romair #96 We already dealt with this question. So, like the late RozannaAnnaDanna (if you dont recall who she is, then you were not a SNL fan when it started) would say:
Ne-e-e-ever mind!!!

re:#75 by Mariam_Durrani
``Where a woman has to worship her husband and wear white for the rest of her life if he dies. Some traditions dictate for her to burn herself atop the funeral pyre even.``
Looks like you have been reading a 18th century novel. Much has changed in India since then and now-a-days middle class Indians do not ask for dowry. As Gujjubania rightly said, women are much more educated today and prone to reject anyone asking for a dowry. As Nisha Sharma`s case shows, the law is on their side. In some conservative communities, widows may wear white dress and suffer but now-a-days, in most communities even widows can remarry and have a good life.
Sati is rare. So rare that when a woman in Rajasthan committed sati, the whole news crew reached there to cover the event. That it is still happening is shameful but you must understand that it is a social evil just like female feticide or Dowry deaths.
The last 2 are borne out of greed and is uniquely middle class phenomena, mostly to be found in the North. I hardly ever hear of dowry deaths from the south though i may be wrong. In a strongly matriarchal society like Kerala, such things are unheard of.
Sridhar

re: Dowry and dowry deaths in India
The problem of dowry is age old and will not go away anytime soon. Meanwhile, dowry deaths are becoming increasingly more common. The following original article dwells on the genesis of dowry deaths:
http://www.hindunet.org/srh_home/1996_2/msg00193.html
It is worth noting that the problem is mainiy in the caste ridden upper middle class societies of the Cow-belt. It is becoming increasingly common in south now. Kerala has among the lowest rates. Predominantly christian or buddhist populations also show low rates of dowry deaths. So do the muslim-dominant areas to some extent. (table 1 in this article)
Excerpts:
1. ``The epicenter of the problem of bride burning and other forms of
dowry-related violence on women is Delhi (the Indian capital), western and
central Uttar Pradesh (cities such as Kanpur, Lucknow and Agra have
witnessed the highest number of deaths), and places adjoining Delhi
(Haryana, northeastern Rajasthan, northern Madhya Pradesh, and southern
Punjab), and the problem has largely been concentrated among the upper
caste above-average Hindu communities. These areas and people have also
traditionally been supporters of the two parties -- Congress and BJP (this
is not to say that all supporters and members of these two parties are
woman-abusers: however, the coincidence is noteworthy). Now the problem
has spread rapidly to other traditionally incidence-free areas and classes
-- south Indian states such as Andhra Pradesh, Tamil Nadu, and Karnataka,
western states such as Maharashtra and Gujarat, and eastern states such as
Bihar and West Bengal (the latter having been one of the bastions of
leftist politics of India) have witnessed rapid surge of incidents in
recent years.``

2. The author of this article makes the following observations:

``a) The incidence of dowry deaths has surged since 1987 (reason could
also be more press coverage and uncovering of facts by feminist
organizations and lawyers).

b) The numbers are the highest in the ``Hindu-Hindi Heartland`` and
``Affluent West`` areas that are traditional strongholds of BJP and
Congress.

c) The traditionally incidence-free non-Hindi-speaking south Indian
and eastern states (such as West Bengal) have seen rapid rise of dowry
deaths since 1987. ``

3. ``At the same time, surprisingly, some places are almost incidence-free.
This could be attributed to the following reasons:

(a) Preponderance of non-Hindu religions that forbid dowry- and
caste-based marriages;

(b) Preponderance of an ancient (pre-Brahminization) Hindu social
system of dowry-free marriage (visible in Assam and Tripura);

(c) Preponderance of tribal societies that have dowry- and
caste-free social system (e.g., the far-eastern areas). ``

So, if dowry problem has to be solved, one needs to break the back of caste system. Killing all the brahmins is an option but difficult to practice (i am only kidding!). Changing the caste equation is so difficult that even Gandhi did not try to change the status quo as he did not want to rock the boat.
The only glimmer of hope is that, with increasing globalisation, female literacy, younger generations will marry across the caste spectrum and make dowry irrelevant.
May be Gujjubania can show us a way by marrying a girl from another caste.
Gujjubania, we are watching you, man. I hope you do not disappoint us.
Sridhar

stuka #91: ``Honor Killings are not deemed illegal.``

I hope you are not serious. Do you really think that honor killings are not illegal in Pakistan? If you do, could I ask you for your source of this information?

Killings of all kinds, in Pakistan, just like in other socieities are illegal. Why wouldn`t they be?
An analogy would be to say that killing Muslims is legal in India, just because Muslims were killed in Gujrat, and their killers were not prosecuted.

The fact is that killing Muslims in India is illegal. The reason the Gujrat killers were not prosecuted was due to political reasons. The same is the case in killing your own daughter in Pakistan.

The practice of honor killings is a part of feudalism, and not religion, in Pakistan. It is a part of the culture of the area. I assume the term, ``karo-kari`` predates the emergence of Islam in South Asia. It is not an Arabic nor Urdu word. I assume it is a Sindhi word, hence it has been around in South Asia, as long as Sindhi has been around.

Pakistani law demands prosecution of anyone who kills someone else. The issue with honor killings is that it is done in areas (primarily PPP dominated ones in Sind and PML dominated ones in Punjab), where the local feudal is also the MNA. Hence the feudal has cultural tribal jurisdiction over it. He, based on his own traditions, passes a tribal judicial judgment on it, which is not recognized by the State law. But is recognized in the area he rules.

Hence it becomes difficult to prosecute the killers, if the killer is from the tribe of the Chief Minister of Sindh. Or from the MNA of Southern Punjab. Much like it becomes difficult to prosecute the killers, if they are hardline supporters of BJP and Modi. Since it the Chief Minsiter, or the MNA or Modi who has to order the prosecution and control the police force.

I saw a documentary on BBC, where the reporter asked this question to an MPA in Sind (PPP area). The MPA answered straight out stating that, in his opinion, honor killings, were ok.

There are three lucunae that are then used by the killers. One is that they are protected by the feudal MNA (who, interestingly, all happen to be from Pakistan`s secular parties). Two, they can threaten the witnesses. Three, they can misuse a part of a Pakistani law that allows the next of kin to forgive the killer, based on compensation. So the father kills the daughter and the mother forgives him (since she is in on it, also). This law never took into account that fact that people would kill their own daughter, with the next of kin`s consent.

The solution is to get rid of these lucunae. But most of all, to get rid of feudalism and feudal politics. Mustapha Khar`s son (allegedly) threw acid on a girl`s face, completely destroying her face, and got away with it, because no one would testify. At the same time, Mustapha Khar`s own daughter is a supermodel in Pakistan, and writes articles for Pakistan`s major liberal dailies (she would be a part of the elite Pakistani Chowk crowd). Talk about double-standards. And Khar was PPP`s Governor of Punjab. Amin Fahim has four sisters married to the Quran. And he is the head of PPP and could have been the Prime Minster of the country. Jamali, the current PM, never shows his wife in public (I am assuming she is alive). At least I have yet to see her. Is she locked away in a haveli in Baluchistan? One of the latest honor killing cases was from the tribe of the Chief Minster of Sind (I believe). So on and so forth.....

So the Governor`s son is throwing acid on a girl. The PM won`t show his wife in public. The leader of the opposition marries his sisters to the Quran. And the Chief Minister protects his tribe`s honor killers. It is thus not a coincidence that honor killings show up in the areas where these people rule.

I have never heard of an honor killing in my home village areas of Kashmir. Even though Kashmir is rural and has no one in a position of power. However, it is not feudal, nor tribal. Hence, my village there is far more advanced (actually is building a girl`s college) than the areas ruled by Jamali and Amin Fahim and others.

Unfortunately, Pakistan`s tragedy is that its religious platform has been hijacked by the maulvi parties. However, an even bigger tragedy is that its secular platform has been hijacked by the even more regressive feudals of PPP and PML. Secular political leaders are in fact, the biggest supporters and protectors of honor killings in Pakistan. This is a statistical fact, that even their biggest supporters cannot argue against.

Ironically, in a round about manner, perhaps the group that may finish honor killings in Pakistan are the maulvi parties. Even though they are regressive, they are the only one`s in Pakistan, who seem to have the courage to take on the feudals.

Stuka #91, etc.

Almost three years ago SameerJB wrote an interesting article called
Obsession with Borderline Issues, which decried an excessive fixation in Pakistan on issues – such as blasphemy and hudood - that were not central to the well-being of the vast majority.

Jay at #54 on that board had a most interesting response entitled ‘BORDERLINE IS THE SIGNIFICANT’. His point was that things like dowry murder or honour killing may be small in percentage terms but point to a deeper malaise, like the smoke detector or the canary in the coal-mine. It is well worth rereading.

Stuka #92 Actually, honor killings are illegal. But (like dowry killings in India), the law is not enforced. So, even on this limited aspect of what jay is saying, there isnt much sense. The hadood ordinance is certainly an undue mixing of religion and state in my view, but even here it should be remembered that it was introduced by a dictator as part of his overall goal of consolidating power in pakistan, and not as a result of any popular demand. And what prevents is removal today is not popular demand, but political pressure on musharaff by the mauliv parties.

Actually, rather than making jay the issue (he has detracted enough from proper discussions on chowk in any way), I would rather discuss the substantive issues tthemselves.

And the basic point you make in this post is the legal aspects. And here I will say I am convinced that India is a step ahead of Pakistan, since the former has separation of religion and state and the latter does not. However, we must keep this difference in perspective, and recognize that politically India is in fact not that far ahead - after all, hindu extremists (like advani, modi) have at least as large a voice in indian politics as muslims extremists (like fazloo and qazi hussein) do in pakistan politics. And socially, india may even be lagging behind (as per my previous post on abortion of female fetuses in India which is not matched by anything similar in Pakistan).

So, keeping things in perspective, let us examine the legal aspects a bit more: I think you will agree that even here it is not a simple black and white issue. Thus, even in the US a major national issue has to do with this very idea of the separation of religion and state, with the President of the US himself not totally averse to this separation.

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GB: Whereas Sati is no longer characteristic, dowry deaths are. Hence I am comparing cultures and society, because that is like throwing stones while staying in a glass house.

I am comparing the legal imperative, the position and complicity of the state so to speak.

TAhmed: Jay was incidental to my post. It could have been Hamid or I or you making that particular point and it would be valid.

I know that there are not millions of honor killings. I know that as a percent of population it is insignificant. I also acknowledge the positive attitude of those Pakistanis who publicise the issue, though it may make the state look bad.

The issue that I am agreeing with Jay on is the fact that Honor Killings are not deemed illegal. Same with Hhudoon Ordnance. This is an issue where most people are actually more progressive then the state itaself is.

Do you get my point?

Ahmadzai:

I do not know Jay. Yes, I agree that he rakes you guys over the coals and I sincerely doubt he is doing it because he is a well wisher. I have never really agreed with his methodology.

In this particular case, I feel that you guys are ignoring a message that is actually relevant, simply because the messanger is khabees (I learnt a new word this weekend)

``For example, are you denying that there are no dowry deaths and bride burning problems in India because of laws?``

Not at all. Hence I call dowry death a social evel. the people who practise it are evil. But, the Indian state has no hand in this evil because it makes the practise illegal. The state is therefore NOT complicit in the evil, the individuals are.

Insofar as honor killings are concerned, from what I believe, the senate refused to pass a resolution condemning it. Thereby the state becomes complicit in the evil itself. Do you see the difference?