Restructuring Identity

Stuka: greetings.

Beg to differ on jay: He points to things like honor killings in Pakistan (which may or may not exist among hindus as well - i dont know, and you might know), while ignoring things like aborting of girl fetuses in indian society and dowry burnings in india. Lets compare the two, and then I will come back to Jay.

1. Where practiced: While the honor killings in Pakistan are certainly an evil, to the best of my understanding (and I visit Pakistan once or twice every year, and of course grew up there) is that they are by and large restricted to the more tradition bound people in rurual areas.
The abortion of girl fetuses in Indian society is clearly not similarly restricted, since it requires access to sonogram-equipped health clinics.

2. Magnitude: There is simply no comparison here. While honor killings in Pakistan do exist, they cannot number more than a few thousands - indeed, the fact that INDIVIDUAL honor killings sometimes get national press attention and human rights societies` attention in Pakistan also indicates this. In contrast, according to independent western surveys that I have read in the WP, NYT and watched on BBC, there is a ``bride gap`` of over 25 MILLION in just the north western states of India alone that is attributed to the abortion of girl fetuses.

In light of the above, I find Jay`s constant rantings to be completely hypocritical. Because if he really cared about the plight of women, he would start with India. But there has never been a peep from him on this. Who do these people think they are fooling?

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Stuka at # 87:

``Pakistanis who dismiss Jay`s rantings in this particular case do themselves a disservice. ``

Its not what Jay says that Pakistanis rant about. Its how and for what reason Jay says that Pakistanis rant about.

Read Jay messages again and if you still think that he is advising Pakistanis in a sincere way, you need to have your brains thoroughly checked.

And btw, its not the law in India that Pakistanis question. Its human rights violations despite the laws that put India in the same league as Pakistan. For example, are you denying that there are no dowry deaths and bride burning problems in India because of laws? Actually, that makes India bride burning problem worse than Pakistan`s honor killing.

For God sake, we are doing things to make life better for all humankind in Pakistan. We don`t need Jay the passive Gay to come on board and make fun of us. If you know him, tell him to get lost.

Jay makes a valid point.

Hinduism has an evil called Dowry. The State of India recognizes it as evil, calls it a crime and prosecutes those who break the law.

Hinduism also has another cultural evil called Sati. The State of India recognizes Sati as an evil, makes it a criminal offense to abett it, and prosecutes those who do.

The last incident of Sati in India took place in 1987 (the Roop Kanwar case). The government disregarded religious sentiment of the particular Rajput community and prosecuted the family members. That is the writ of the State.

In Pakistan, there is an evil called Honor Killing. The Pakistani state does not even recognize it as an evil.

This is not about Hinduism or Islam. This is about India and Pakistan, their identities as states.

Pakistanis who dismiss Jay`s rantings in this particular case do themselves a disservice.

``But not many cultures are as insanely barbaric as Indian or should I say Hindu culture``

What?? Yeah, that is exactly what Maulana Diesel and Maulana Sanswich say. Hindu culture is worse then Taliban. Wearing white after one`s husband dies is so much worse then getting whipped for letting an ankle show. HAHAHA!

Romair - Various posts:

Your narration of Canadian attitude towards immigrants is amazing. My family and I visited Canada in summer of 2002, but remained north of Barrie area for tourism. Since there was not a single relative in or around Toronto, we never had any urge to explore the human dimension.

Several of my friends from Punjab and Karachi, Sindh have made Canada their home. Most of them have settled in cities in the vicinity of Toronto. I am in absolute agreement with Pakistanis living satisfactorily, although they are under-employed. One reason could be that Pakistanis from about same generation, having higher qualifications and competencies, have moved about the same time and have concentrated in one geographical region to make their presence felt. Otoh, Pakistanis, having all shades of educational qualifications and skill levels, migrated to the USA in different times and settled in different parts. Therefore, perhaps Pakistanis in Canada as a community will perform better economically.

I wish Pakistani community settled in Canada the best of everything. I also pray that the unwanted element of our society is never able to make into Canada and tarnish the image of our country.

Btw, are BBQ Tonight and Tandoori Times at Mavis and Burkenthorpe in Mississauga still in business?. My God, their food was delicious. How about the world`s biggest book store near Eaton center (name fails my memory). Also, do you know of any Pathan families who might have moved to the area?

:-)

Tauheed at # 82:

``we make sure pakistan is politically, socially, and economically a progressive nation, at peace with itself and its neighbors - and that is all that matters. Everything else takes care of itself. ``

A big Ameen to that.

:-)

hamidm #76 I am sorry to say sir, but by looking to jay for instruction on your identity in this sad post of yours, you make Romair appear intellectually dazzling and urstruly to be the epitome of rationality and insight. Do you always salute those who spit on you, as you have done in this post?

ahmedzai #79 You make a number of interesting points in your post. Some comments:

1. On ``acceptance``: I think those who simply seek acceptance in a community they live in are certainly one step ahead of those who are negative and cynical of community they have chosen to live in. The latter are obviously simply being hypocritical, and the former are at least being honest. But both are obviously frustrated, as your friend was when he was venting his frustrations at the Canadians until he found a job. I would also note that there are those who, in addition to being appreciative of the community they have transplanted themselves into, dont wait to be given acceptance. They take the initiative to make themselves useful members of the community they live in: Thus, there are at least two pakistani initiatives I know where they visit shelters for the homeless and for abused women, and provide them with meals.

2. On Pakistan`s ``image``: Image never bothered me too much, since the substance of what we are as individuals is all that really counts. As for these two-paisa men from India like jay and gujjubania and arjun and rsaxena (who i see just joined and added the only thing i have known him capable of writing in the past 3 years) - the hell with them. India is a large country and I have met many, many fine and decent people from india. These lowlife can only pollute chowk, but amount to zero (even if there are several million of them, which is probably the case if one goes by the surprising numbers of losers who show up on chowk) as far as Pakistan goes. The BJP government itself in the 1990`s tried its best to malign pakistan, as i recall, by trying to get it declared a pariah nation - and they impressed no one but themselves. And now even that government has finally given up and changed its tune.
So, I wouldnt worry about image. We take care of the substance - i.,e. we make sure pakistan is politically, socially, and economically a progressive nation, at peace with itself and its neighbors - and that is all that matters. Everything else takes care of itself.

re: hamidm

{it would rather be a muslim and actually sleep with four women and kill a goat and eat its liver}

be more specific...you would rather dance around a bakra on a guillotine and toss its spleen and innards all over town until it reeks

Ahmadzai #79: Canada has actually had immigration open for a long time. There are second generation sardarjis here, running left and right. To the point that, Punjabi is now a semi-recognized language in Canada. Irish immigrants are everywhere also.

The immigration has seemed small, since the whole population of Canada is equivalent to that of California, i.e. 30 million. It is only now that Canada has completely opened the floodgates of immigration. It takes 300,000 immigrants a year. So 1% of its population is migrating to Canada, yearly. This is a far higher percentage than the USA, and probably any other country in the world.

I don`t know what kind of treatment immigrants got in Canada in the past years, since I wasn`t here. But now, Canadians have no choice but to treat them well. The whole society is dependent upon them. And for all practical purposes, they are running the heart of Canada, i.e. Toronto. More than half the city is immmigrant.

The Quebecans seem to want more French speaking people to come in, and those can only come from French Arab countries. There is a shawarma shop at every street light in Montreal. The rest of Canada is being flooded with South Asians and Chinese. Urdu/Hindi is probably the fourth highest spoken language here now, after English, French, Mandarin/Cantonese.

But Canadians have a very strict immigraiton criteria. They only let in people with Bachelors degrees/equivalent experience or refugees. There is very little illegal immigration, due to geographic reasons. So they are growing their immigrant population in a very controlled manner.

If immigration were to stop in Canada, unlike USA, Canada will economically collapse. There just aren`t enough people in the country, at the moment, to keep it afloat. There are four prominent political parties (now three) in Canada. From the extreme Left of the NDP to the extreme right of the Canadian Alliance, evey party supports immigration - though at different levels.

The other advantage here is that, one comes in as a resident, not as a temporary worker. So one feels like a part of the society immediately, with all the benefits. The other noticeable part is that the Muslim community in general, and the Pakistani community specifically, has made a place for itself in the politics of the country - at leeas in Ontario. Canadian PMs and Federal Ministers court the community heavily. They attend all the Pakistani functions. In all my years in the USA, I rarely saw anyone other than an unknown local Congressman (if that) attending a Pakistani function.

It is quite interesting to observe this society. I never knew much about it, before coming here. It is indeed unique. Somehow or the other, they have figured out, how to mesh in so many different cultures and peoples, successfully and peacefully. Perhaps it is a coincidence and good luck.

But I have to say, in Canada, one can actually feel 100% Canadian and be considered 100% Canadian by everyone, even if one is wearing a dhoti, eating pan and drinking gunna juice on Gerrard Street. I have no issues in trying to melt into the society that I am a part of. But I am actually starting to enjoy this new culture-less society, where you can be whomever you were.

Tauheed at # 67:

Thank you for a detailed response.

My experience suggests that feeling accepted or not is a state of mind. We would psychologically feel accepted by the society, if, as immigrants, we are performing to our satisfaction financially and socially in that particular country.

I have a friend living in Toronto. Although he was a competent banker in Pakistan, for a long time, he did not land any decent job opportunity in Canada (from 1996 to 2002). His attitude on the emails was nagging, always cribbing about discrimination of Canadians and supporting extremist version of Islam (i.e. Talibans). He would always ask for Pakistan`s support of Talibans, but would have no solution for attendant calamities. If you want to have an image of his character, recall our own urstruly of Chowk.

I visited him in Canada in the summer of 2002 and on many occasions tried to advise unsuccessfully to soften his stance. However, in September of 2003, he finally got a good job (AlHamdolillah). Now his whole attitude has changed. During my last visit to the USA in December 2003, he came over to Chicago to meet us. Gone are the days of his extreme cynism and criticism of the White Man and of Canada. He is truly a satisfied man.

My observation further suggests that if we are not doing financially and socially satisfactorily, then the chances are that we are going to be cynical of everything that comes our way.

However, reverting to the original discussion, I think romair has one good point in that Canadians did have a secessionist movement of Quebec and therefore, they might be seeing immigrants as a softening of that problem. Otoh, immigration to Canada is a recent phenomenon and may take some time for anti-immigrants attitude to develop and show openly like in the UK.

One big problem that is escaping our attention in America is scums like arjun, jay, gujjubania, etc. trying to tarnish the image of Pakistan and of Muslims. We have noticed this on the board. also, there have been Pakistani interactors on the other websites who have reported extreme anti-Pakistan attitude of few Indians. This seems to be like an organized smear campaign not only restricetd to the websites, but also to other forms of media. I think we have taken it too lightly for too long. This smear campaign has the potential of making Pakistanis ``less accepted`` in America.

On the subject of our identity: What about identity cards? Dont we all have identity cards that tell us everything we need to know about our identity?

The above is meant to be a joke at one level, a serious observation at another level. Its all very profound. :-)

This is why I call him Jay the passive Gay. He comes here to get his due.

You should remember that when you point a finger at others, 3 of your own fingers point towards yourself.

I am sure Mariam will be proud of her identity as I am sure you are yours, although I am also sure that India would not accept scums like you as its sons.

Your own fingers point towards the following:

Dowry deaths in India:
http://nd.essortment.com/dowrydeathsind_rgcg.htm

female foeticide in India:
http://www.indiatoday.com/itoday/20031110/index.shtml

Girls for sale in India:
http://www.indiatoday.com/itoday/20031013/index.shtml

A glimpse of Government`s patronage to ethnic violence in India:
http://www.ercwilcom.net/indowindow/threeessays/title.php?bookid=11

Another glimpse of ethnic violence in India:
http://csf.colorado.edu/mail/revs/current/msg00075.html

A glimpse of human right violations in India:
http://www.derechos.org/saran/india/

HIV in India:
http://www.avert.org/aidsindia.htm

Racial discrimination in India:
http://www.hrea.org/lists/hr-headlines/markup/msg00025.html

Indian help in Chemical weapons proliferation:
http://usinfo.state.gov/topical/pol/terror/03022019.htm

Indian help to Iranian nuclear plant:
http://www.spacewar.com/2003/031023051623.vbyeqa4o.html

mariam,

............ since you are new on chowk, you can be forgiven for trying to tangle with jay who has been providing a valuable service by keeping us pakis honest .......this gallant little madrasi has saved many of us from going over completely to the dark side by continually reminding us how grotesque that side can be ..........he is like one of those mirrors that you see in the house of horrors at the carnival - the image might be distorted, but it is frightening never the less ............

.............you see, most pakis, inspite of being educated and all that, have been exposed to a terrible virus and can have a fatal relapse at any time .................. that`s why we need jay - he has prohylactic value .........

............jay, unwittingly as it might be, is a true friend of pakistan and even though some folks think he is a bonafide lunatic i believe there is a method to his madness ........ we should all be thankful .............

............ on a more serious note - most pakistanis used to be quite comfortable with their identity till about the mid-eighties, then along came the curse of islamic revival and all of a sudden we are confused ........ since then we have been on a slippery slope that leads to hell on earth ............ it is that simple ............ the fascination with karahi gosht and chappal kebabs might clog our arteries but it won`t kill us, obsession with seventh century bedouin superstition will ................

Jay,

I am assuming you are not Pakistani first off. Secondly, my culture or anyone`s culture is what they are exposed. Fortunately, I have been exposed to a beautiful and rich culture and I love being Pakistani.

Furthermore, there are many things wrong or unagreeable within many different countries. But not many cultures are as insanely barbaric as Indian or should I say Hindu culture. While Indian culture has many virtues such as great storytelling tradition, beautiful song and delicious food. Some of the barbaric and disgusting culture/traditions: Where a woman has to worship her husband and wear white for the rest of her life if he dies. Some traditions dictate for her to burn herself atop the funeral pyre even.

Please don`t confuse civil and political problems for Pakistani culture. You only further demonstrate the stereotype of the illiterate Indian ranting for no apparent reason than the fact that he can and for some reason, Chowk is allowing it. My article was not meant for you clearly. Do yourself a favor, stop embarassing yourself and read something else. I don`t want or need you to educate me on my culture.