Bombay, personally

PS: I take offence to Chowkstaff`s decision to repost Nooralain`s post #53 which adds an unfair and biased spin to the whole issue.

Sorry Nooralain but your post is not balanced, because it is making assumptions which are not there. Please point out where I have accused Sadna of abusing my family? I haven`t. My mention of the abuse against my family was relevant to the point that I haven`t responded like Sadna has to abuse which has been much worse. I have not painted an entire people, generalized about an entire community and painted them like idiots. It is easy for anyone to paint an entire population with a brush... Yes I did call Sadna a Hindutvist... because anyone who can claim with a straight face on a website frequented by both Pakistanis and Indians, that she is not answerable to Pakistanis, or anyone who paints all Pakistanis in a certain light is in my opinion a Hindutvist.


People like Sadna call us names all the time... we don`t consider that a personal abuse. We have been called Islamic fundamentalists, communalists, bigots, racists, and all the things Sadna called us in #25... what I consider abuse is the kind of humiliating posts Gujju bania has been writing about my wife. Yet neither my wife nor I responded by degrading an entire nation...

Sadna was called much less... a Hindutvist... we are called extremists and fundamentalist every day by Indians including Sadna who abuses us in such language every chance she gets. Some how that is completely missed by Nooralain, who seems to have no fair bone in her body. Sadna`s personal attacks on us can be forgiven... but it seems that she also finds it in her to attack the entire people ... in #59 on separate identity she is talking about `Pakistani mating rituals`


http://www.chowk.com/show_article.cgi?aid=00003143&channel=civic%20center&start=200&end=209&page=21&chapter=3&order=0#59


then gleefuly she announces that she is not answerable to Pakistanis... and here on this board (Bombay Personally)

But the very thought of Indian issues being given the standard `Pakistani elite` pious `we-can`t-handle-complexities-but-oh-we-are-so-liberal-disagree-with-us-and-be-labelled-hindoo-extremist` treatment gives me the heebie-jeebies. A set of people totally divorced from anything but drawingroom realities getting a free pass to mess around in Indian affairs is a scary thought.


I challenge Chowkstaff to show some fairness... quote where I have been abusive to Sadna beyond what or even equal to what she has been posting.

I am beginning to think that this website thrives on hypocrisy ...

-YLH

PS: I don`t expect this post to published... seems like that part of the modular brain that holds Fairness and equity as virtues is still in its embryonic development when it comes to chowkstaff.

...any one calling sadna a bigot is an a$$hole...she is a biatch in a nice way but bigot never...memories are short or intentional...who was the first person to condemn gujrat massacre?..sadna, who spoke for the downtrodden muslims in the post gujrat? sadna...to me she is a patriot gone crazy who would fight like miandad for victory and that includes pscyhological warfare and made-up statistics...

now what is the fight all about? mumbai...that`s a dirty city with millions sleeping on footpathand ruled by thakray the thugs and yet act like a magnet to the rural india to make their dreams come true...

...and noori you will never make a good diplomat despite your best efforts...these people from the two countries need to be kicked on the butt regularly to behave like humans...;)

chowk staff:

thank you. : )

sadna:
thank you for clarifying what you meant in #25. it is not too far from what i thought you had meant.
i understand your misgivings about some pakistanis with what can be viewed as too much `dakh`l andaazi` in the affairs of ordinary indians, and perhaps they would feel the same way about some indians doing that as well.

pre-judgments can be positive or negative depending on what they are. and i don`t think you`re discounting the possibility of pakistanis and indians exchanging ideas per se, and finding commonalities. i do read indian papers online from time to time, especially when musharraf was in india, and quite a few of those reports were rather favorable. . .at least until the point when something went wrong.

i do look forward to dost-mittar`s insights on his journeying through pakistan, and veeresh, if he ever makes it to the test match in rawalpindi. i do believe that it is through such interactions that we can gain greater understanding, and move towards more peaceful relations with one another. as for the remark on `babri masjid` being a pakistani issue, i don`t agree that it is, but can see to some small extent where the person who made this point was going. . but i think pakistanis need to worry about the greater issues we face in our own country, including the `minority` one. it never hurts to look at the bigger picture, or to remove the lens of our negative biases, cobwebs call them what you will from our own eyes before looking at any picture.

regards. :)

Chowk staff: Thanks for enforcing your guidelines.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

chowk-staff
It is your website, aapki marzi.

ferozk #56
`` I must simply tell you that what I wish to post on Chowk and to whom, is my concern and not yours.``

This is exactly what I was saying. Your grand statement applies to me, too, something you and your friends are unable to grasp.

nooralain #various
The big nautanki here only confirms my conviction expressed in #25.

If Pakistanis read newspapers(which it is clear that some are too self-absorbed to do so), they would notice that Indian commentators while travelling in Pakistan or commenting on Pakistani issues rarely take sides, even when they have personal contacts on any side of any issue within Pakistan. Military dictators/politicians/ideologues of all shades from Musharraf to Benazir to Nawaz Sharif and Fazlur Rehman are welcomed in India and taken on their own evaluation without either Indian establishment, media or ordinary Indians overtly/professedly taking sides in Pakistani issues.

In contrast, Pakistanis at all levels, government, media, elite, public are quick to take sides, pronounce judgement (and even indulge in activism) in Indian issues. I have even heard PTV anchors and Pakistani ministers in office go so far as to say `Indian elections were fought on `Pakistani` issues such as Babri Masjid`.

And another example, when Fazlur Rehman came to India, the idiot RSS/VHP leaders discussed Ram Janmabhoomi /Babri Masjid with him! Fazlur Rehman, who had tens of thousands of jihadis with AK-47s fight for the Taliban! Apart from the huge ideological /world view distance between even Indian Muslims and Fazlur Rehman, and the totally different dynamics of Pakistani politics, I doubt the average Indian police/paramilitary force are as well armed as either his supporters or the personal guards of even average`liberal cosmopolitan` Pakistanis. What the heck is the relevance of discussing Indian affairs with him?

As I said, if increased Indo-Pak interaction meant ordinary Indians have to deal with Pakistanis at all levels getting more involved in Indian issues, I have deep misgivings about it.

re: Indo-Pak economic union
When free trade is established between the SAARC countires (by 2006 as per the charter), the rivalries will hopefully be a thing of the past. I found this artilcle the best reason for an economic union:
http://jang.com.pk/thenews/
We need to learn from history, if we are not to repeat some mistakes of the past.
Sridhar

``#30 by Mantolives on February 29, 2004 4:09am PT

Dude... Where are you living?

If she is gonna make inaccurate statements in a hit and run fashion than she should be ready for the heat.

If she is gonna run everytime after she has been challenged and then claim : `I am not answerable to any Pakistanis` ... which is a stupid statement to make because my nationality is not a central issue ... if she doesn`t want to talk to `Pakistanis` because she is not `answerable` to them... then she will be told to pack up her bags and spare us. Your post was rude and uncalled for... my country is not going to get better by tolerating every bigoted insane comment of a Hindutva breathing loser from New Jersey. ``

YLH,

I live in country called India. Place is Mumbai. That is how it will be called. Internationally. When people like Beena has a problem with Marathi people (Thanks Sadna.. Sindhi also?? ), the locals get a wake up call.

I am extremely proud that my country produces people like Sadna.

Let me clarify. I do not know her, neither she knows me. All said and done she will disown my ideas. And I will be AOK with it.

I and likes of her can and will debate our differences. Without F word. F as in well .. but also F as in Fatwa which, most should agree is very common word and needs no censure ....

YLH, if at all any one is bigoted it is I, and very open about it. I reek about it the way I ......

And yes I was rude to you. I am even ruder now. But you claim you always like facts. So let me spell it out. Read my earlier mail again today.

What was father your Atom Bomb (is the name Khan???...) giving oral (or written) confession on TV few days ago?

And then, what was owner of your nation (Is the name PM??) giving oral or written commitment to some one called Colin Powell on Phone on sept 11, when Colin asked him to wag the tail.

And what are you doing about it?

I know. I know. Talking about Sadna??.
Yogiraj Patil

nooralain,

If your post was removed along with others it was only to avoid further ``he said, she said``. Maybe a questionable judgment call at the time. It has been reposted below #53.

Sincerely
Staff

esteemed chowk-staff,
i have been reading, participating and sometimes contributing to chowk for quite some time now. and i have noticed how often we go off topic on every single board.

it is therefore somewhat puzzling to me that you should have removed my post to mantolives, a post that was far from abusive. in this post, i was trying to reason with someone i consider to be an intelligent person that if he should continue to call a poster here a hindutva, which he has done quite often. . .and the person is not the hindutva he keeps referring her to as, then a situation has been created where both feel that they are being attacked. and if this interaction has degraded into personal insults then perhaps it is time to move on.

i tried to explain what i read in sadna`s reply in #25 which was for the most part a response to this article, just as much as mantolives considered it to be an attack against him and his family.

again i fail to see why my post was removed. either you follow the guidelines with impunity every single time, or you don`t. my post was not irrelevant to this board, a board which is not only about beena sarwar`s visit to india, but the implications that it has for each of us from both sides as we consider peaceful and meaningful interaction with one another. i feel that my post addressed that issue, as well as the effects our biases have.

i have watched often how a board degenerates from the topic into that of personal attacks and the like, more often than not. i have watched how an article board turns into a cut-and-paste fest to prove just how messed up pakistanis are, and somehow does not get removed for `violating guidelines`. . .i have observed how we refer to one person as hindutva for her views not taking into consideration the complexes or complexities rather that exist in the said person, and that is not considered as abuse? that still remains on this board by the way.

i was attempting in my post to show the dangers of our biases, and our `namecalling`. . .and of applying that to one person, let alone the myriads of our populations. if you do not see how that is related to the topic at hand in the least bit, i find that very unfortunate on your part. i see a point to your removing posts with abusive language but if you should reduce a person who is attempting to find a balance on a board as irrelevant, i find that very unfortunate indeed.

this action, as well as previous actions taken by editors and staff really make my question what place a voice who is trying to find balance and maintain balance on a website she has appreciated for all the years it has been here has. . and whether it belongs. obviously from your action of removing my post, i am more prone to consider that my voice does not belong here. thank you o esteemed chowk staff for finally showing me the light.

sincerely,
nooralain/ana

re: Sadna # 51

You wrote: ``It is a more worthwhile use of your time to contribute on the topic here than waste your time expending std. Pakistani issue hot air``

Are you suggesting that I need your permission to post any reply, on any topic, on Chowk?

If that is the case, then I must simply tell you that what I wish to post on Chowk and to whom, is my concern and not yours.

Ciao

Beena Sarwar,

I apologize for the inconvenience caused.


Chowkstaff,

As far as I can see the pettiest totally irrelevant to this article post (#25) of them all that started it all hasn`t been removed. Also... Gujjubania`s offensive posts against my wife haven`t been removed from Separate identities board. It will also do chowk staff a world of good if they defined what interaction is `abusive`. Calling someone a Hindutvist who hides behind such sentences as `I am not answerable to Pakistanis` after being challenged on it is hardly name calling.

Though I appreciate Chowk`s first attempt to deal with everyone on equal footing, it will also be good if they didn`t cave into the pressure of certain people who keep snitching and complaining about `abuse` when there hasn`t been any.

-YLH

``Offensive interacts from the Separate Destinies have also been removed.``

Actually ... this hasn`t happened... not even selectively. The only post I could see that was removed was the one in which I had informed the chowk staff that I had mistakenly posted under my wife`s nick which was then also removed at my request.


Gujjubania`s various posts against my wife, Sadna`s post #59 which is a racist attack against Pakistanis, and even the posts in which I allegedly `abused` sadna stay as they are.
So please point out which `offensive` interacts were removed.

sadna, mantolives, gujjubania, others:

The last few interacts from this article have been removed to curtail another discussion from getting off-subject.

Offensive interacts from the Separate Destinies have also been removed. If some objectionable post has been missed its not due to any selective bias but simply because its been missed. You can report it using the help link at the bottom of each page.

To all, please keep in mind this is public shared space for dialogue. By posting irrelevant, petty, and personal remarks you not only diminish yourself but also are inconsiderate to the writer of the article and to the readers interested in following a real discussion.
To have a productive debate please stick to the theme presented in the article.

well, i guess my request to hold off on attacks and negative language fell on deaf ears. this doesn`t bode well for the duration of this board. but then what`s new pussycat?

rather than my going back and forth to read this post that yasser seems to be up in arms about. .i will repost it here:

But the very thought of Indian issues being given the standard `Pakistani elite` pious `we-can`t-handle-complexities-but-oh-we-are-so-liberal-disagree-with-us-and-be-labelled-hindoo-extremist` treatment gives me the heebie-jeebies. A set of people totally divorced from anything but drawingroom realities getting a free pass to mess around in Indian affairs is a scary thought.

If interactions with Indians of all shades contributes to more realism in the Pakistani elite, fine, but if such interaction is nothing but a free pass for them to bring their strong class and ethnic biases into the Indian scene, no thanks.

********

hmmm, so yasser you take this as a personal attack on your family? perhaps it is. . .because you have time and time again labelled sadna to be a `hindutva`. and i will now say something i have been meaning to all this while. i do not consider sadna to be a hindutva. i think you`ve painted a brush on her and dismissed her just as some have perceived her to have dismissed pakistanis.

as for the rest, i think there is some point to what she`s said. . .we are so quick to class anything that smacks of anti-pakistan as hindutva. we do not take into consideration certain psychosocial complexities. this article itself smacks of a certain bias which even i noticed, as interesting as the article is. .as `nice` as it is that beena got to experience mumbai.
being divorced from anything but drawingroom realities is just as fitting for indians as it is for pakistanis. how many indians on this board understand the psychosocial complexities of pakistanis? they don`t know. and guess what. . .we don`t really help here on chowk. . .and they don`t really help here on chowk, because we`re all hung up on our biases, ethnic, class, whatever. and yes, liberals are guilty of claiming to be liberal but projecting their view of what they see as reality on to what the reality actually is. and that doesn`t apply to liberals alone.

yasser, i will acknowledge that i honestly do not recall you painting dismissive strokes on the population of indians, but you have dismissed sadna. .and she is indian. this regurgitating of quotes from her is something that is personal between both you and her. . .and you cannot totally extend that to the rest of the pakistanis. neither of you really know each other except what you have shown on chowk, and perhaps neither of you ever will. . .but please yasser, save yourself. . .dimaagh thanda karo. move on. . .move on!!!
ana

ferozk #43
It is your friends who have been desperately trying to pick a fight with me starting with #50 of the Cementdaur board. It is a more worthwhile use of your time to contribute on the topic here than waste your time expending std. Pakistani issue hot air.